Hard Cast vs. ????

[jgh4445]

OK, so I see a lot of companies advertising "Hard Cast" bullets. What exactly is the definition of "hard cast"? I don't believe I've ever seen an ad for "soft cast". I may be the only guy around who doesn't know this, but I'm asking anyway.

[bangerjim]

I have always considered anything in the 14 or higher range as hard cast.

Not needed today for 90% of what most people shoot. I only shoot 14+ in rifle boolits shot at upper velocities + GC's. All others 9-12 + PC.

"FIT IS KING" not hardness today. Most size 0.002 over slugged bore size.

Companies promote & cast hard boolits becauase most just dump them in a shipping box and if they were softer, they would be all banged up by the time you get them.

Rolling your own by casting lets you have total control over hardness, quality, fit, accuracy. Works for me! I have 4 boxes of 1K "comm-cast" slugs that I am gradually re-melting and re-casting to what hardness I want. Also easier to just re-melt to get rid of that horrid grease lube they use. I have been powder coating everything for at least 3 years now with 100% success - no grease - no smoke - no sticky boolits - NO LEADING.

I guess there are still those out there that have not "seen the light" on casting their own. I have.

Good luck on your choices for boolits.

bangerjim

[runfiverun]

anything with antimony in it is considered hard cast.
at least it was referred to that way when they started adding antimony to cast bullets in the late 1800's

[mdi]

From what I can remember since I started casting and shooting lead bullets, approx 22 years ago, there were three kinds of bullets; jacketed (or variations of jacketed) cast bullets and swaged bullets. Newer lead shooters mistakenly thought "harder is better" and wanted to purchase "hard cast" bullets so the commercial casters gave them what they wanted. Web/forum speak or nomenclature morphed into all cast bullets being called "hard cast", no matter what the BHN of the bullet is (when I started casting I never heard/read the term). That's the way I remember the term emerged, ie.; marketing hype. I have no idea what BHN determines the difference between "Hard" and "Soft". Is a 14.5 BHN bullet hard? Hard to me as I usually run my cast around 10-12 BHN...

Jes an old guy's thoughts, could be debated...:wink:

[geargnasher]

It's a slick and meaningless marketing term for alloy that's usually about equal to Taracorp Magnum alloy.

Gear

[JonB_in_Glencoe]

I've never seen a precise definition for "Hard cast", but in my discussions with one friend that I am mentoring the reloading hobby to, He claims that most large commercial bullet caster's use the term "Hard cast" for their 92-6-2 alloy. I've never taken the time to confirm or deny his claim.

edited...Oh, I guess that's Taracorp Magnum alloy... :lol:

[jgh4445]

Thanks guys. Kinda what I was thinking. Mostly marketing meaning I bought them from a bullet maker.

[Hick]

Some tell you what they mean when they say "hard Cast". I recall when I bought some hard cast from Hunter's Supply they specified BHN 22 (if I recall correctly). I shoot them PB.

[Wardo1974]

I don't understand the attraction to hard cast. Are they less expensive for corporations to manufacture?

I use pure lead in my loads. I don't want to drill a .45 caliber hole in the animals I shoot at. My pure lead, powdercoated boolits expand to the size of a silver dollar in whatever I shoot at, and that seems like way better performance to me.

[Lloyd Smale]

10bhn or straight air cooled ww is the bottom of what id call hard cast.

[singleshot]

Most companies that sell lead boolits want you to open the package and see pretty boolits. Therefore, they want relatively hard lead and hard lube so they look good. That does not make them shoot better as has been mentioned. I don't think there's an appreciable difference in cost other than the cost to the manufacture of returned, dented, "ugly" boolits.

[44man]

I shoot everything HARD with fit. I shoot a lot of big bore PB boolits and WD WW lead for 20 to 22 BHN. Mine are harder then you buy.
That is where my accuracy is and if I need expansion I make half the nose softer so they are 11 BHN there. I always keep a hard drive. The softer nose is still too destructive and I would not shoot any full soft for deer.
I have shot softer but get too many fliers and is where a GC is needed or PC. However I would not hunt with a soft PC.
Here is what an 11 BHN soft nose does on entry. 159500 I only have 1/8" of soft on the nose!
Shooting a 50-50 HP totally destroyed an entire shoulder on exit and meat was blood shot head to tail. 159501
I get zero leading and some guns have not seen a patch in 3 years or more, I just keep the cylinders clean and lubed. I like my hard boolits unless shot too fast, they will poke a hole so work on the nose is a must. Funny how little it takes.

[mike69]

I shoot everything HARD with fit. I shoot a lot of big bore PB boolits and WD WW lead for 20 to 22 BHN. Mine are harder then you buy.
That is where my accuracy is and if I need expansion I make half the nose softer so they are 11 BHN there. I always keep a hard drive. The softer nose is still too destructive and I would not shoot any full soft for deer.
I have shot softer but get too many fliers and is where a GC is needed or PC. However I would not hunt with a soft PC.
Here is what an 11 BHN soft nose does on entry. 159500 I only have 1/8" of soft on the nose!
Shooting a 50-50 HP totally destroyed an entire shoulder on exit and meat was blood shot head to tail. 159501
I get zero leading and some guns have not seen a patch in 3 years or more, I just keep the cylinders clean and lubed. I like my hard boolits unless shot too fast, they will poke a hole so work on the nose is a must. Funny how little it takes.

how do you make the nose softer on your bullets? I've read about annealing the nose on heat treated bullets and was thinking of trying it for my hunting bullets.

[44man]

how do you make the nose softer on your bullets? I've read about annealing the nose on heat treated bullets and was thinking of trying it for my hunting bullets.
I have the old LBT soft nose pot that will dump in the softer lead first, then I pour the hard. I still WD these. A small ladle made from a shell casing works somewhat.
I have never tried annealing the nose, might work fine.
I sure need to stay away from bone. I never stopped any revolver boolit in a deer even throat to ham and never found any lead particles.

[Shiloh]

I have found that 50/50 Range scrap/WW is sufficient for just about everything. If I need a tad harder, I add linotype.
For target pistol at slow velocities, range scrap is perfect.

Shiloh

[RogerDat]

As with all those marketing type terms one has to wonder if the BHN of old commercial "Hard Cast" was different than what you buy today. I have some boxes of Laser Cast that are old enough to have been less than $30 at Cabela's makes me wonder if as ingredient prices went up they cut back on antimony or tin to save money or went the other way in an attempt by each maker to have the hardest "best" bullets they increased the hardness. No real hardness tester or new hard cast to compare to so just an idle question as I avoid running errands.

I figure what the heck seem to shoot OK in either 38 or 357 at the short ranges and light loads I have tried them with so I keep them as they are. One of these days I'll see how they work in front of a full 357 magnum load.

[runfiverun]

nope they just raised their prices.
I remember seeing some lazer-cast boxes marked 65+ dollars for a while there.
I don't see them around here anymore though I think all our LGS's dropped them.

[44man]

They make a pretty boolit but I sent for samples once for my 45-70 and they were too small for my barrel.
I would prefer to buy good boolits from the better makers that let you choose the diameter you need.
Fit is always better then how hard or soft.

[Shuz]

In the most recent issue of "The Fouling Shot", Ed Harris has an interesting article about how hardness is affected on ww alloys by the addition of lino. The jist of the article is that 1 part lino to 10 parts lead is prolly all that is needed for most applications and changing the ratio to 2 parts lino to 10 parts ww, only increases the hardness by a small amount. For years I've been using 3 parts ww to 1 part lino and my hardness measures around 14 Bhn. I may increase my ww to lino ratio to conserve precious lino, and see what happens. This is for rifle shooting velocities, for handgun velocities, I stick with Bhn 9 to 11.

[scattershot]

Well, on the opposite side of this coin, does anyone know of a source for SOFT cast boolits? I'm aware of the Remington swaged variety, and buy them when I can find them, but I'd like to find another source, primarily for .45 Colt, .44 Special, and .38 Spcial.

Thanks.

[Char-Gar]

To my knowledge the term "hard cast" entered the shooting lexicon before any of us was born though the well known Elmer Keith. He talked about using "hard cast" bullets in his hot 44 Special and later 44 Magnum loads. He was was very specific about what he thought "hard cast" was and that was a binary alloy of 1-16 (tin to lead).

In those days, revolver bullets were usually 1-30 or 1-40. By those standards, 1-16 was indeed hard, but today is butter soft.

Since those days "hard cast" has become a loose ball on the playing field and can be recovered by anybody and defined any way they wish. In other words, it is hard if your think it is hard, but not if you don't think it is not.

I know that does not answer your question, but at least you now know the rules, i.e. there is no standard definition.

[Char-Gar]

Well, on the opposite side of this coin, does anyone know of a source for SOFT cast boolits? I'm aware of the Remington swaged variety, and buy them when I can find them, but I'd like to find another source, primarily for .45 Colt, .44 Special, and .38 Spcial.

Thanks.


Try Matts Bullets as he uses alloys that are pretty much spot on for the task at hand. Much better than the standard "hard cast" sold by most commercial caster.

[wv109323]

Speer and Hornady sell a swaged bullet. I know it comes in .358 and .452.

[rototerrier]

I always figured hard cast was anything harder than wheel weights or scrap since more effort would be needed to get it harder.

[scattershot]

Thanks, Char-Gar. I'll try Matt's.

[LenH]

Missouri bullet sells Hardball alloy, 92-6-2, they also call it Magnum alloy. It is supposed to be the new Lyman #2. The old stuff was 90-5-5 which was a waste of tin or at least that is my opinion.
I like cutting the hardball with pure or range lead 50/50 and it works for me.