How to smelt lead out of backstop sand?

[BCRider]

My club's indoor range is radically overdue for cleaning out the backstop and replacing the sand used to hold the bullets.

So I'm thinking of taking the sand, lead, bullet casings and bits of the foam backer material home to "smelt" out the lead to use for casting. Or is this something that simply doesn't work well when the lead is mixed in with 50 to 60 % sand?

It'll mean having to set up a bigger burner and pot to form ingots. All I have at present is a small Lyman 10lb mini pot

I'm anticipating some amount of smoke from the bits of foam backer that will be in the "ore" but I'm sort of suspecting that the sand and jackets will simply float up and can be scooped off.

Am I totally off base on this? Any hints on how best to manage this work?

This will be basically a once or twice in a lifetime deal to get lead for the special boolits I need. So I'm thinking something fairly simple like a turkey fryer burner and some sort of big pot which will hold around 3 to 4 shovel fulls of the "ore" per melt. Due to the weight and all the crud floating on top I'm planning on converting whatever pot I use into a bottom pour so I get clean ingots.

There's a fair amount of foam rubber chips in the "ore" from the bullets shredding the foam backers we use. I'll try using a blower fan and pouring the ore past the moving air to blow the foam away. But it won't catch all of it so some of it will certainly burn and smoke. I make need to reduce my melt size to control the amount of smoke. And since this stuff will burn down to ash I'm guessing it won't hurt the lead?

Anything I've missed?

[dudel]

Congrats on the find! And now like the dog chasing the car, you caught it. Now what!

I'd run the sand through a big screen and collect the bigger chunks of lead. The smaller the screen, the longer it will take; but the more lead you stand to collect.

If you want to use heat, I suppose you could rig up a bottom pour pot and heat a big ole mess of backstop. The sand won't melt (unless you've got some real heavy duty heat!), so the lead will melt out and settle at the bottom. I'm guessing you could even get by with a big pot, and just pour the sand/dirt off the top after the lead had melted down.

I think I'd go with the screen method.

[flyingmonkey35]

I did this a few years ago.

First. Sift out as much lead chunks . scrap as possible.

Then if you really want to get it all you can do 1 of two things.

1. Throw handefulls of dry sand in to a pot of molten lead stir and sift out sand.

2. Use a water system just like flu mining for gold.

Two buckets of water a pump and a washer board run. Dump sand lead mix on run and the water will wash away the sand leaving behind the lead.

Left with clean sand and lots of lead.

Both are time consuming and you have to ask if its worth it?

[fecmech]

I have access to backstop lead but gave up on it. The problem is this lead is highly oxidized due to water leaching in at the base of the backstop. I brought home a couple of 5 gal buckets to smelt but after burning one heck of a lot of propane in my plumbers pot I took most of it back and dumped it back at the club. With the amount of propane I was using I didn't think it was worth it.

[corbinace]

I think I would go with the Flyingmonkey on this one. The sluice box method would be what I did before I got to the melting stage. If you have ever done any gold dredging or even panning you can see the benefit of such a method. Done properly, you would end up with pure lead with maybe some heavier copper.

[country gent]

A shaker made with a fine screen will seperate alot of the lead from the sand a sluice made up with rails and water flush will capture even more of the fines but also remeber if you do this then it has to dry before smelting. A fine screened trough setting out in the spring summer and let the rains was the sand thru. When smelting be sure to flux and clean several times to get all the sand out. A big pot will help alot, A 25 lb propane cylinder with the top cut off works good. You will want a bigger pot bigger strainer spoons and most important a big ladle one that can fill 2-3 4-5 lb ingot moulds in one dip. When talking a big pot and 150-300lbs of material pour ingots and cooling is a real time eater. Pouring faster into multiple moulds greatly speeds this up.

[blackbike]

Screen it where it is and bring the good stuff home to smelt.
bb

[Hickory]

I've done this before.
Sift or pick out the big pieces of lead until you get enough to melt in your pot. (Big Pot)
When lead has melted and your pot is about half full then you can start putting in some of the sand/lead mix.
Let stand on molten lead to cook off any moisture. Stir and flux. Skim off slag and repeat.
You level of lead in the pot will increase with each batch you do.

[BCRider]

That sure didn't take long. I expected a couple of replies, not seven. Thanks to all of you.

The "ore" is from an indoor setup where steel baffles set at around 45'ish degrees force the lead down into a tray of sand. And being indoors it's all totally dry. So no issue with dampness or the lead oxidizing into a white powdery mess.

And while there's a lot of hunks much of the lead is pulverized to nearly powder. Taking a small sample in hand shows that the "sand" is made up of darn near half lead dust and half sand granules. So if I just sift for the lumps with a large enough screen weave to let the sand and lead dust flow through I'm going to lose half or more of the lead along with it. So I'm inclined to try using the whole product.

However sifting would not be a bad way to start since it would give me a coarser product in the screen which I can use a leaf blower on to blow away all the lighter foam chips from the target backers

The water sluice box is sort of what I was thinking of but with an air blower to separate out the foam chips from the target backers. But if I screen out the foam and bigger chunks first then I could use a sluice box setup to run a coarse sand and lead separation. I'll see how "lead rich" the screen dust is. If it's rich enough I may just try running separate sand and lead dust melts from the screened material. Then do runs of the coarse lumps and jackets after the foam is blown away. If that works I'll avoid having to dry the wet lead "dust".

But if that's a mess then I'll keep the water sluice in mind.

OK, I think I have a plan. Screen for sand and lead dust. Melt batches of the screenings. Use a leaf blower to blow away foam and paper "chips" from the coarse rubble. Then melt the coarse rubble down and scoop off the copper jackets.

I'm going to grab a small bucket of the raw stuff to try these things before I leap into it. More in a few days when I get a chance to scoop a sample.

Until then I welcome any further ideas and suggestions.

[dudel]

Using air to sluice is an old gold mining technique for areas where water is scarce. Also used in recycling techniques. I'd be cautious about blowing pulverized lead about. Water would be a safer way to keep the dust down.

[Mica_Hiebert]

Personally I would dig all the sand out. Screen the bigger chunks out of the the sand and put the sand and lead dust back in the trap and smelt the big stuff down.

[W.R.Buchanan]

OK this is not that complicated. Dump the whole mess in your drive way and wash the majority of sand off the lead with a garden Hose. Let dry for a few days

Buy a Propane Turkey Fryer at Lowes $39.95, and get ahold of a Dutch Oven or other large Cast Iron Pot or Skillet. (Thrift Store)

Light burner. Shovel in some of your hosed off lead and let it cook. When the lead gets hot enough to melt the sand and other Debris will float to the top where you can skim it off with a large serving spoon. When you buy the spoon also get a large Gravy Ladle and heavy Aluminum Muffin Pan.

One scoop with the Ladle usually fills one pocket in the Muffin Pan. The pucks generated by the Muffin pans are usually around 2 lbs.+/-

Continue until you've ran out of lead or get sick of doing it. You should be able to do about 400-500 lbs a day and will burn right at 5 gallons of Propane in 8 hours.

The Muffin Pucks are easy to stack on a pallet but make sure it is placed somewhere it doesn't need to be moved,,, Unless you have a Forklift.

I sat my days worth of pucks just outside my garage door and they have been preventing that slab of Cement from floating away for the last 10 years!

Randy

[Le Loup Solitaire]

I have on several occasions harvested a lot of range lead mixed with mud, crud and sand. Dumped on the driveway slope and hosed it down with the garden hose for quite a bit. Got as much non lead as possible to run off downhill. Scooped up what remained and spread it out to dry. Then smelted it in a 20 pound electric pot made for ladle work, a batch at a time and poured into ingots. Flux and skim to get rid of what floats and clean the pot after each batch. A slow process, but what's the rush. Lead is good and the price is right. LLS

[Mica_Hiebert]

and if your neighbor turns you in for either of these last 2 posts may you have fun with 20-30,000 dollars in a hazmat clean up. epa considers lead contaminated ground a hazardous waste spill. I am not a tree hugger but use your mind and be a steward to your planet. dumping a butt ton of lead oxide in your driveway and watering it in is a butt head move and have fun with the consequences if you get caught.

[RogerDat]

I think it would depend on how rich the source is. If you get good yield from the course material then you have to ask yourself is the propane and time worth it to get whatever is left in the finer stuff. I would go with a ladle and propane pot or dutch oven pot over the hassle of a jumbo bottom pour pot. You can also get bottom pour ladle which is useful even for smaller batches in the future. Bread loaf pans make nice 12 or 16 lb. slab ingots for storage. The muffin tins make easier to use in a pot smaller ingots. I snag both types of pans when I see them cheap at thrift stores or garage sales.

[BCRider]

I'll know more when I scoop out a gallon size ice cream bucket of the stuff and try out my ideas as shaped by the suggestions from all of you. That won't be for a few days though.

The driveway deal is a non starter. Even if I didn't agree with the guys saying that it's a bad idea for the lead that will become washed into the storm drains my driveway is rather worn exposed aggregate. So the lead will wash down into the gaps between the stones and I'll never get the stuff out. So that's not happening.

[mcdaniel.mac]

I can't add anything to the smelting, but this has been a fascinating read and I wanted to thank the contributors, as well as those who urged environmental caution and good stewardship. Thanks for contributing.

[Ballistics in Scotland]

I haven't seen a suggestion made in this thread that couldn't be addressed politely. But this backstop and the driveway idea do involve lead salts which are more poisonous and more easily leached into the system than lead itself. While it is to be hoped that an environmental inspector would content himself with a stern warning - maybe - the neighbor who grows fruit or vegetables, in particular, would certainly have a point.

I would indeed screen the sand at the range, wearing gloves and a mask. If the firing point is very old and open to rain, it would be prudent of the club to replace all of the sand, and consult the local environmental authorities about what to do with it. Then do what they say, even to desperate measures such as paying money for disposal. I wouldn't burn that plastic foam either, both on its own merits and for the sake of the lead oxide dust it contains. Screening should separate most of it out with the lead, and water, spilling out onto the sand you will dispose of, will float it clear.

[Forrest r]

I would also screen it at the range, nothing fancy, you just want to try to remove any loose sand. From there you need a big pot with a lid along with that turkey cooker base. I used to use a big dutch oven to smelt range scrap in. It worked ok but I wanted something that could hold allot more material. I ended up making a lead smelting pot out of an old propane tank. I cut it open with a 4 1/5" grinder with a 1/8" cutting wheel.

http://i162.photobucket.com/albums/t242/forrestr-photo/propaneleadpot.jpg (http://s162.photobucket.com/user/forrestr-photo/media/propaneleadpot.jpg.html)

There's a weld ring around the middle of a propane tank. If you cut just below the weld ring it will leave the metal spacer on the top 1/2 of the tank. That makes an excellent seal/lid. The valve in the top of the propane tanks is brass, I cut that off and it exposed 2 vent holes in it.

I put 130# of range scrap in that tank at 1 time and get around 100# of clean lead per batch. I turn the heat up high when I melt range scrap. It doesn't take long for the lead to melt (around 20 minutes) and then I use a steel spoon that has holes in it and a french fry basket that has a handle to skim off jackets. Just spoon/skim/shake the french fry basket (french fry basket ='s wire mesh fryer basket about the size of a coffee can that has a handle) and gently shake the basket over the pot to get the molten lead out of the jackets. After all the jackets are out of the pot skim the rest (dirt/sand/etc) off and flux the alloy and stir/skim again. Then it's ingot time. You want to try to make a big a batch as possible at 1 time. I do 100# of clean ingots at 1 time, that will give you a consistent alloy to use for that batch. 100#'s of the same material is allot better that 20#. The range lead should be close in alloy but I've found that there's spots in indoor ranges that have allot more 22's than other areas from where the bullseye shooters stand/shoot/practice.

I keep the copper jackets and take them into the local scrap yards. I typically get around 4 gallon of jackets a year.

http://i162.photobucket.com/albums/t242/forrestr-photo/bucketbullets.jpg (http://s162.photobucket.com/user/forrestr-photo/media/bucketbullets.jpg.html)

4 gallon of copper jackets is around 45# to 50# of #2copper. What that bucket pictured above paid a couple of years ago when scrap prices were up in 2012.

http://i162.photobucket.com/albums/t242/forrestr-photo/bulletreceipt.jpg (http://s162.photobucket.com/user/forrestr-photo/media/bulletreceipt.jpg.html)

Didn't have allot of time this year to pick/smelt lead so I went to plan b. Took the jackets in and got $$$ along with a bunch of scrap range brass.

http://i162.photobucket.com/albums/t242/forrestr-photo/prices2015_zpss5j8jmzg.jpg (http://s162.photobucket.com/user/forrestr-photo/media/prices2015_zpss5j8jmzg.jpg.html)

Took the $$$ I got from the free range brass/copper jackets and bought lead from the recycler. Ended up buying #280 of lead from them at $.35 a pound. There was ww's + mystery ingots along with three 10# bars of babbit and around 10# of solder and a bunch of pure lead that I melted into ingots and sold to the bp guys at the club.

http://i162.photobucket.com/albums/t242/forrestr-photo/165oflead_zpsv5nb1ghy.jpg (http://s162.photobucket.com/user/forrestr-photo/media/165oflead_zpsv5nb1ghy.jpg.html)

It isn't that hard to smelt lead down that has sand/dirt/etc in it. I've been using nothing but range lead since 1990 and use around 300# of lead a year casting/shooting . Never washed anything just simply gave everything a shake in a screen to get rid of anything loose (san/clay/mud/etc) that was sticking to the bullets. Picked out large junk by hand as I screened and everything that didn't fall off or get picked out went into the pot.

I did around #600 of lead from an indoor range several years back. Same thing your dealing with, sand, rubber, paper from targets, jackets, junk. It was actually easier to smelt than the lead from the outdoor ranges. The sand held the heat and formed an insulating layer on top of the melted lead.

Big smelting pot and high heat and don't worry about using up the propane. I go thru around 1/2 a tank of propane smelting 450# of range scrap to get 300# of clean lead ingots. Most of the propane is actually used keeping the alloy hot/melted while I ladle it into the ingot molds. 1/2 a tank of propane is $7.50.

good luck and be safe

[BCRider]

Thanks Forrest, that sounds highly encouraging. And it sounds like there's no real advantage to modifying the pot to a bottom pour. From what you're saying it wasn't hard to spoon off the crud from the lead.

One last question, what colour of muffin papers should I use for the ingots? Gotta keep things purrty you know..... :D

Ballistics in Scotland, once again I'll mention that this is going to be the containment sand and spent lead from an INDOOR range. So there's no wet sand and oxidized lead to deal with.

The steel backstop directs the lumps and powdered lead down into trays of sand to soak up the energy. It's that tray material that I'll be refining down to ingots.

I don't need lead so badly that I'd be into trying to refine the lead dust from the outdoor range. I figure it would be as nasty as you and some others have mentioned. If I were mining the outdoor berms it would most certainly be with a shovel and screen and only the lumpy stuff would be taken away.

[rmark]

What you have isn't range scrap, it's more lead dust + sand. I had 5 gallons of a similar mix years ago, I just smelted the dry mix. A lot of work for not much return. Winnowing it with a fan or washing it in a sluice may not do much good, the sand and lead dust are too similar in weight.

[.22-10-45]

Wear a resperator! Not one of those dinky paper dust masks...but an industrial certified one with filters especially for lead particulates. You don't want to be breathing that stuff! I would also wear coveralls and after use keep in plastic bag out of house..same for shoes and socks..can't be too careful with fine lead dust & sand mix.

[dikman]

We've just started shooting at steel plates (SASS) and were surprised at how little (usable) lead is left behind. There's an awful lot of very fine bits peppering the ground, interspersed with small round discs! I would suggest sieving it at the range, if possible, so you don't have to worry about the specks and sand.

[BCRider]

Dikman, I shoot CAS as well and I hear ya. Lots of little lead "coins" laying around and lines of seriously grey sand and soil in the ground directly along the face of the targets.

Get on You Tube and find that super slow motion video of bullets hitting steel. The first third or so is rifle bullets passing through or seriously dimpling steel. The middle third is handgun rounds impinging on the steel and creating a shower of lead dust and leaving the "coin" behind.

Here ya go. It's an oldie but perhaps some have not seen it yet;

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QfDoQwIAaXg

Our backstop uses a strongly angle steel plate that directs the lead down into the sand. So much of it will be the sand like dust.

For collecting the sample this Monday I'll just hold my breath for the one scoop. But you bet your bippy that I'll be wearing a really good mask when the group of us cleans out the muck for real. And those disposable coveralls as well. And likely a disposable hat. I'll use something similar when working with this stuff at home too.

Rmark, one of the reasons I'm keen to try at least a sample is that the backstop has been let go for a LONG time. So I figure that it's as rick a mix as I'll ever find. If it were done on a more regular basis then it probably wouldn't be worth the time. But we've pumped a LOT of poundage into that backstop over the last 3 years. So now's the time ! ! ! ! :D

I'm going to collect a scoop of the stuff this Monday and try screening and melting the "dust" on Tuesday in my Lyman Big Dipper. Between the weight of the lumps and whatever sort of melt comes off the sand and lead dust will determine if I go ahead or not.

STAY TUNED !

[243winxb]

From the pit to the pot. The "dust" lays on the bottom of my 40 lb pot. It will not come to the top with fluxing. Its gray in color. Indoor range has the steel plate also, sending the bullet down into the sand. I use a ladle to make the ingots.

[Don Fischer]

I've always shot into dirt banks outdoor's, lot's of people do. when I was done for the day I'd dig and sift to get lead. Smelting is no problem. I have a big propane tank hooked up to a metal stand. On it I have a heavy cast aluminum pot, fairly deep. Once there's a few inches of lead in there, add more stuff. Let it melt then flux and stir with a hardwood stick. i use a soup ladle with 1/8" holes in it the scoop out everything left floating on top. I run the stuff at around 625* and steel, zinc, copper ect just floats out.

[blackthorn]

I have never tried to reclaim from sand/lead bits. Reading this thread I wonder, since we know that sawdust is a reductant of lead oxide, what would happen if a pot was filled with a mix of range gleanings and sawdust? Perhaps a little diesel oil in there for good measure. If the pot full of mix was then brought to say 700 degrees and allowed to sit for a time,, the lead (which is mostly oxide) should melt/reduce back into liquid lead. No???


Don Fisher-----It is a longstanding consensus on this forum that it is a very bad idea to use an Aluminum pot to melt scrap lead. Aluminum has a very nasty habit of suddenly failing and dumping molten lead all over.

[clintsfolly]

A the last time I got sand lead mix I used a piece of channel iron over a wood fire. Set a old pot under the lower end and a steel bucket under the high end. Dumped some of the mix on the hot channel and stirred with a hoe. The lead ran out the bottom and sand pushed out the top. The sand was returned to the backstop and the lead recleaned in my big smelter. Did about 850lbs one day. Hope this give you a bit of help. Clint

[BCRider]

Thankyou Clint! I'm going to keep that in mind. It's a slick trick.

How long a hunk of channel did you use? And just one burner or a couple to heat up the whole length of your "sluice channel" separator?

I want to thank all of you so far that have replied with positive results from doing the same sort of lead dust reclamation. It tells me that I'm not totally out to lunch and that for this particular lead rich load of sand that I could well come out of the effort with a pretty good stock of lead for my efforts.

I'm quite looking forward to working with the test sample a bit later this week.

[Don Fischer]

I have never tried to reclaim from sand/lead bits. Reading this thread I wonder, since we know that sawdust is a reductant of lead oxide, what would happen if a pot was filled with a mix of range gleanings and sawdust? Perhaps a little diesel oil in there for good measure. If the pot full of mix was then brought to say 700 degrees and allowed to sit for a time,, the lead (which is mostly oxide) should melt/reduce back into liquid lead. No???


Don Fisher-----It is a longstanding consensus on this forum that it is a very bad idea to use an Aluminum pot to melt scrap lead. Aluminum has a very nasty habit of suddenly failing and dumping molten lead all over.

I wasn't aware of that. Will keep it in mind and look for something better, probably cast iron. thanks for the head's up!

[Grump]

I dug some lead out of an indoor backstop similar to what you describe many years ago. The sand pit was maybe 6-8 inches deep. Lead piled up in the corner and aggregated together into large irregular lumps. Decided it was time to do some "self help" when we started getting lead chips flung back at us while shooting the .22 rifles at that 50-foot range.

Think I crammed a screwdriver into one hunk, pulled another out with the channel lock pliers.

Unless someone has been raking the lead accumulation out of the back corner, you may not have that much lead in the rest of the sand pit.

Not sure where that lead went after I melted it in the 20-lb pot. Probably used the ingots last year. Sorta lost track of what came from where.