Bore riding nose vs engraving

[newton]

I am wondering the pro's and con's of each. If there is a time and condition where one or the other is preferred.

I have a .223 with a short throat. M700 Remington. At the moment I am engraving my RCBS 55-SP boolit around .1" in front of the top driving band. I have not slugged my bore yet, but when I do I am wondering if sizing the nose to the bore diameter, down to that driving band, would be beneficial?

My thought is that it will help center the boolit in the bore, or does the boolit being engraved do the same thing? Or, does this even make a hill of beans if the boolit is not seated perfect in the neck of the case?

[runfiverun]

your confused on bore riding and throat alignment.
right now your little boolit is scuffing the ball seat area at the front of the leade into the rifling.
or just about a perfect alignment fitment helper.

a bore ride design is something with a long skinny nose that slides into the bore diameter part of the barrel.
you want that long nose to engrave the rifling so it is supported and so it helps align the rest of the boolit.

[newton]

Ah, hmmm. It seems to me that if the ball seat is what is engraving my boolit, then my bore is even smaller - right? I really need to slug my barrel and get some measurements. This I know for sure, I have a very short throat. I have to load jacketed rounds way under what most people are loading them in order to get them away from the leade. I guess I was under the impression that a bore riding nose you could test by slipping it into the muzzle end - without resistance. Hence, the nose portion would not be engraved at all, but rather just be supported by the lands all the way around.

[44man]

Usually, that is correct for a bore ride but some boolit ogives are tapered so you will engrave the last next to the front band. That is OK as long as you can chamber. Not a true bore ride.

[newton]

Right, thats kind of what I am wondering about. I understand the boolit I have is not a bore riding design. My question is the pro's and con's of each. And, while it might not be a true bore riding design, I wonder if sizing the nose down, so that I can seat out further putting the whole gas check in the case mouth, and have the nose resting on the lands rather than being engraved by them.

[45-70 Chevroner]

That sounds logical to me but what are you going to size it down with? There is a limited number of sizing dies for the 223, unless you order a custom die. I'm waiting for 44man to come back with an answer to your last question.

[45-70 Chevroner]

My brother had a 700 Remington with the same problem and he got rid of it rather than having it rechambered. He bought a TC barrel and it didn't give him any problems, he was just limited to the lighter weight boolits because of the 1 in 14 twist rate.

[high standard 40]

I wonder if sizing the nose down, so that I can seat out further putting the whole gas check in the case mouth, and have the nose resting on the lands rather than being engraved by them.

This is exactly what I did with my T/C Contender 22 Hornet and my accuracy improved greatly.

[vzerone]

Right, thats kind of what I am wondering about. I understand the boolit I have is not a bore riding design. My question is the pro's and con's of each. And, while it might not be a true bore riding design, I wonder if sizing the nose down, so that I can seat out further putting the whole gas check in the case mouth, and have the nose resting on the lands rather than being engraved by them.

I'll tell you a few true bore riders so you can compare: the Lyman 311299, Lyman 311284 (this one is actually a little of bearing band bullet too), the Saeco 140 6.5 bullet. A good many of the rifle bullets from Mihec that appear to have a long nose like a bore rider are not bore riders. For a lack of a better definition for those they are a self-aligning bullet as that nose is tapered in a certain manner. In the j-word world when Winchester came out with the 264 Win Mag and for their heaviest bullet, it was what they called a two diameter bullet. Below the cannelure the bullet was groove size (.264) . The rest of the long nose was basically hair smaller then bore diameter. They did this because if it was full size all the way and with the throat being short, they would have had to load the bullet deep into the powder capacity.

The cone or ball cones should always be larger then the bore. The cone is just a taper down from the throat or freebore.

Not saying you're going to get into HV, but if you do engraving the rifling when chambering the bullet is not a trick to get accuracy. It doesn't work for HV as it does for low velocity. Just saying.

[runfiverun]

I think you'd be better served getting a throat cut.
most rifles that have that super short square cut throat actually do shoot a true bore rider like the rcbs 30-165 silhouette boolit very well.
the bore ride boolits however limit your velocity's pretty drastically because they rely on that nose to do so much work.
having a tapered leade cut into the throat allows a much gentler approach to the barrel and allows a broader range of boolits to be used.

instead of slugging the barrel I'd do an impact slug so you can actually see and measure what you are working with.

if the nose on your boolit is over .219 it will hit the rifling, that diameter is good for the 5.56 throat and does well in older rifles and other 22 calibers because they have that little bit of taper to work with.

[newton]

That sounds logical to me but what are you going to size it down with? There is a limited number of sizing dies for the 223, unless you order a custom die. I'm waiting for 44man to come back with an answer to your last question.

I was thinking a nose sizer. Either custom or one from NOE. I had not heard, or understood, nose sizing till I saw a thread on NOE's sizing dies.



This is exactly what I did with my T/C Contender 22 Hornet and my accuracy improved greatly.


Care to expound upon your process? I'd like to hear it for sure.

[newton]

Not saying you're going to get into HV, but if you do engraving the rifling when chambering the bullet is not a trick to get accuracy. It doesn't work for HV as it does for low velocity. Just saying.


Once I hit my goal of consistent sub MOA at 100 and 200, then I am going to try HV. I first started working with this gun and jacketed bullets. I did not realize the throat was as short as it was and was just getting so so results. Then I realized I was jamming the bullets .030" into the lands using the listed OAL for the given bullet I was working with. After backing it out to just jump a little I started getting those pretty little 1/2" groups. So it would not surprise me that jamming the cast would not work also, which is one reason I am thinking of sizing the nose. In order to not jam the RCBS boolit, I have to seat it so deep that the entire gas check and more is below the case neck. Cannot see how that would be good with full power loads.

[newton]

I think you'd be better served getting a throat cut.
most rifles that have that super short square cut throat actually do shoot a true bore rider like the rcbs 30-165 silhouette boolit very well.
the bore ride boolits however limit your velocity's pretty drastically because they rely on that nose to do so much work.
having a tapered leade cut into the throat allows a much gentler approach to the barrel and allows a broader range of boolits to be used.

instead of slugging the barrel I'd do an impact slug so you can actually see and measure what you are working with.

if the nose on your boolit is over .219 it will hit the rifling, that diameter is good for the 5.56 throat and does well in older rifles and other 22 calibers because they have that little bit of taper to work with.


No throat cutting here :shock:

Seriously, I do not like to mess with stock guns like that. I would rather try to find non-permanent ways of doing something. I do understand that a sharp leade is not going to do well with high pressures and such, but so far it is doing very well with my lower velocity loads.

Really, I was just curious about the pro's and con's of the two different approaches, but I think I can see the differences now.

[vzerone]

Once I hit my goal of consistent sub MOA at 100 and 200, then I am going to try HV. I first started working with this gun and jacketed bullets. I did not realize the throat was as short as it was and was just getting so so results. Then I realized I was jamming the bullets .030" into the lands using the listed OAL for the given bullet I was working with. After backing it out to just jump a little I started getting those pretty little 1/2" groups. So it would not surprise me that jamming the cast would not work also, which is one reason I am thinking of sizing the nose. In order to not jam the RCBS boolit, I have to seat it so deep that the entire gas check and more is below the case neck. Cannot see how that would be good with full power loads.

Nose sizing will not increase your accuracy. The more you size a bullet the worse it becomes. I've never been happy with nose sizing and it's better to find a bullet that nose fits without having to size it.

[44man]

To find any die to lap for a .22 nose must be a custom, I have a 30-30 boolit with a bore ride too large and I lapped a lee die to .301 to size the nose only. It works but what die do you get to size a .223 nose? My die started as .285".
I think if you just engrave next to the front band, you are OK. If they camber OK, just work loads. I have a hard time finding anything that needs changed with the gun or boolit.

[newton]

Nose sizing will not increase your accuracy. The more you size a bullet the worse it becomes. I've never been happy with nose sizing and it's better to find a bullet that nose fits without having to size it.

Maybe, maybe not. I understand what your saying, and it would definitely take a good die to not deform too much - if it is even possible to not deform too much. But I don't think one can say it won't work, because obviously someone else here has already tried it and it did work.

This is all besides the main point which is to understand the pro's and con's of each approach.


To find any die to lap for a .22 nose must be a custom, I have a 30-30 boolit with a bore ride too large and I lapped a lee die to .301 to size the nose only. It works but what die do you get to size a .223 nose? My die started as .285".
I think if you just engrave next to the front band, you are OK. If they camber OK, just work loads. I have a hard time finding anything that needs changed with the gun or boolit.

I am not sure if you have seen/heard of them or not, but what got me to thinking about it was the NOE sizing dies. You run the boolit up into them, to a point, then push the boolit back out from the top. It would HAVE to be a very well made die, because I could see it being easy to dis-form the boolit with both the sizing and removing operations. I'll get a picture of exactly how much and where my lands are contacting/being engraved. But here is one that shows it before I started loading to a longer OAL.

159317

I now seat them out further to where the case mouth is a hair lower than the first band. I found that this is the sweet spot for the particular load, but cannot seat out any further without it being near impossible to close the bolt. In fact, its rather hard now.

I just wonder if I took the nose portion down another thou, even a half a thou, if it would make it easier to chamber and move the gas check up a little further.

[JoeH]

For my two cents, I think the bore riding nose is a good design but only if it perfectly fits the bore and considering the difficulty of sizing only half a bullet that means it must drop from the mold at exactly the right diameter with your mold, alloy and casting technique. That's a pretty tough target for a mold maker to hit every time. If the nose is at all undersize it will not shoot accurately except perhaps over very small charges at low velocity. Try inserting your bullet nose down into your rifle's muzzle and see how far it will go before becoming tight. A perfectly fitting bore rider will very lightly engrave on the nose section, from ogive to the first driving band.

[44man]

Maybe, maybe not. I understand what your saying, and it would definitely take a good die to not deform too much - if it is even possible to not deform too much. But I don't think one can say it won't work, because obviously someone else here has already tried it and it did work.

This is all besides the main point which is to understand the pro's and con's of each approach.



I am not sure if you have seen/heard of them or not, but what got me to thinking about it was the NOE sizing dies. You run the boolit up into them, to a point, then push the boolit back out from the top. It would HAVE to be a very well made die, because I could see it being easy to dis-form the boolit with both the sizing and removing operations. I'll get a picture of exactly how much and where my lands are contacting/being engraved. But here is one that shows it before I started loading to a longer OAL.

159317

I now seat them out further to where the case mouth is a hair lower than the first band. I found that this is the sweet spot for the particular load, but cannot seat out any further without it being near impossible to close the bolt. In fact, its rather hard now.

I just wonder if I took the nose portion down another thou, even a half a thou, if it would make it easier to chamber and move the gas check up a little further.
Exactly what I do with a lapped Lee die. It is finding a die small enough to get to nose size in a .22.

[newton]

Exactly what I do with a lapped Lee die. It is finding a die small enough to get to nose size in a .22.


Ah, I see. Yea, I do not think there would be a factory die I could convert. I also think I would do it a little different than the typical nose die. Seeing how I would be having it custom made, I would want it to allow the full boolit in, having a .225"(or .226") main body that then had a short and slight taper to the size I would want my nose to be. That way there is less chance of deforming the boolit body.

I am guessing the amount needed and such is what will dictate if its feasible. Might not be in the end.

[high standard 40]

Care to expound upon your process? I'd like to hear it for sure.


The steps that I take to achieve the best accuracy I can with cast in my handguns is usually much more entailed than most people would be willing invest in. But I gladly put forth the effort. I shoot IHMSA silhouette and quite often a single errant shot separates success and failure. I am currently using cast in two different 7 TCUs, a 7BR, and the mentioned 22 Hornet. I use the same process for all of these. We won't go into casting techniques or powder charge levels, only assembling the cartridge to achieve the best fit possible with bottleneck cartridges.

The first order of business is to do a chamber cast and slug the bore. These dimensions are crucial to the process. I then size the drive bands of the chosen bullet to be as snug a fit as possible in the chamber throat. I also seat the bullet as far out as possible so that the front drive band nearly touches the start of the rifling, which in a T/C starts very abruptly. I size the nose of the bullet so that the nose is lightly engraved by the rifling once the cartridge is chambered. The RCBS 55SP has very little "bore riding" nose but does have a little. Sizing this portion of the RCBS bullet allowed me to seat the bullet out farther than if I were using a bullet with an unsized nose. This aids with bullet to bore alignment and helps assure the bullet gets started straight in line with the bore.

Now a word about case preparation. Once a case has been fireformed in my chamber I will only neck size after that, and then only as much of the neck as is needed to seat the bullet. On my Hornet, this amounts to less than half the neck. Leaving as much of the neck unsized as possible helps to align the bullet with the bore. I use custom expanders in my "M" dies so that I have only .0015" neck tension. And any flare at the case mouth is left, again to help get that case centered in the chamber.
This is the process I use and it works very well for me. I’m not trying to say it is the only system that will work but it may give ideas of some things to try for people who have “tried everything else”.

[45-70 Chevroner]

I was thinking a nose sizer. Either custom or one from NOE. I had not heard, or understood, nose sizing till I saw a thread on NOE's sizing dies.





Care to expound upon your process? I'd like to hear it for sure.
I discovered nose sizing with my 32 Wincheter Special. I bought a Lee 8 mm mold only to find out that the nose was too big. I measured the nose and it was about .315 if my memory serves me right, I came up with the idea why not run the nose into a .311 die, well that made a perfect bore rider. I took it out to the range and my 5 shot groups were any where from 2" to 4" at a 100 yards. I was quite pleased considering it was a lever action. I have since given that rifle to my second oldest grandson and he loves it. My grandfather bought that rifle new back in the late 1940's. I am his second oldest grandson, just keeping up the tradition.

[newton]

The steps that I take to achieve the best accuracy I can with cast in my handguns is usually much more entailed than most people would be willing invest in. But I gladly put forth the effort. I shoot IHMSA silhouette and quite often a single errant shot separates success and failure. I am currently using cast in two different 7 TCUs, a 7BR, and the mentioned 22 Hornet. I use the same process for all of these. We won't go into casting techniques or powder charge levels, only assembling the cartridge to achieve the best fit possible with bottleneck cartridges.

The first order of business is to do a chamber cast and slug the bore. These dimensions are crucial to the process. I then size the drive bands of the chosen bullet to be as snug a fit as possible in the chamber throat. I also seat the bullet as far out as possible so that the front drive band nearly touches the start of the rifling, which in a T/C starts very abruptly. I size the nose of the bullet so that the nose is lightly engraved by the rifling once the cartridge is chambered. The RCBS 55SP has very little "bore riding" nose but does have a little. Sizing this portion of the RCBS bullet allowed me to seat the bullet out farther than if I were using a bullet with an unsized nose. This aids with bullet to bore alignment and helps assure the bullet gets started straight in line with the bore.

Now a word about case preparation. Once a case has been fireformed in my chamber I will only neck size after that, and then only as much of the neck as is needed to seat the bullet. On my Hornet, this amounts to less than half the neck. Leaving as much of the neck unsized as possible helps to align the bullet with the bore. I use custom expanders in my "M" dies so that I have only .0015" neck tension. And any flare at the case mouth is left, again to help get that case centered in the chamber.
This is the process I use and it works very well for me. I’m not trying to say it is the only system that will work but it may give ideas of some things to try for people who have “tried everything else”.


This is the exact thing I was thinking of doing. Even the whole neck sizing thing. Good to know that I was not just pulling this stuff out of thin air.

Couple of questions. What do you use for sizing the nose and how does it come out looking? Pictures would be very nice.

When sizing the neck, what sizer do you use? And does it have any mandrel inside, or do you in essence size the neck and use the M die to expand like the normal mandrel would?

[high standard 40]

Couple of questions. What do you use for sizing the nose and how does it come out looking? Pictures would be very nice.

I use a sizer die made by forum member "Buckshot". I don't know if he still offers these or not. It is a die made like an H&I die that fits either Lyman or RCBS lubrisizers and uses replaceable bushings that are made for the "Redding Bushing Neck Sizer" reloading dies. For my 7MM I Use a .277" H&I die. Sorry, I don't have photos.

When sizing the neck, what sizer do you use? And does it have any mandrel inside, or do you in essence size the neck and use the M die to expand like the normal mandrel would?

I use a standard neck sizer die, then an appropriate "M" die with a custom expander that yields a .0015" neck tension. "Buckshot" supplied these as well. A bushing neck sizer die would be the ultimate tool for this step because it would work the brass less.

[.22-10-45]

newton, if your bullet nose is fitting that close your lucky. I probably have spent far too long trying to get that RCBS bullet to shoot in my Shilen barreled Borchardt..nose too small. One of the biggest improvements I have found was tapering front band of bullet to match throat leade angle & seating so 1st. band is engraved by rifling. Was able to match match grade jacketed accuracy at 100yds. by doing so. Best of luck!

[44man]

High standard does it exactly right.
I can't do it for the 30-30 Marlin but size only enough to close the lever. I can't leave the flare either because I need a crimp.
I need to make a mold for my single shots, I still have the Wichita 7R and the MOA 7BR.
I neck size my .44's until I have trouble pushing them in. I use a washer under the die so I can just remove it to FL when needed.
Hey HS, have you ever tried Varget in the pistols? Stuff is crazy. I could not shoot 120 gr SSP bullets because of the fast twists for steel knockers but wanted the lighter bullet for deer.
I called Hornady for load info and he laughed at me, said it won't work. I went ahead and tried it and got 1/2" groups at 50. 32.5 gr in the 7BR gives me a clean burn at 2175 fps. I don't know the velocity in the 7R but I use 34.5 gr. I have not tried it with heavier bullets yet.
I also changed to Varget in the 6.5 Swede, got less then 1/2" at 100 and can hit a whole row of 410 shells at 100. Who would expect it to work in 10" pistols?

[newton]

newton, if your bullet nose is fitting that close your lucky. I probably have spent far too long trying to get that RCBS bullet to shoot in my Shilen barreled Borchardt..nose too small. One of the biggest improvements I have found was tapering front band of bullet to match throat leade angle & seating so 1st. band is engraved by rifling. Was able to match match grade jacketed accuracy at 100yds. by doing so. Best of luck!


Yea, I figured I was. Right now it shoots good.....so long as I get the boolit seated straight - but that's a different topic I've got fixed I believe.

My main goal, and thought about starting this thread, is if I would gain - or loose - anything by getting the boolit further into the throat/lands and base up further in the neck, slightly engraving the nose, and having the front band just touching the lands. My mind tells me that it would shoot better by having less resistance, and being able to get straight in the bore. But I didn't know if I would be loosing anything by having less of the boolit being engraved by the rifling.

Sorry if this all sounds confusing, sometimes its hard to put into words the pictures in my mind....

[high standard 40]

[QUOTE=44man;3523978] Hey HS, have you ever tried Varget in the pistols? Stuff is crazy. [QUOTE]

I have not, but have been considering it. I have a friend who has used it in a 10" 7TCU with good results.