How better to carry a range rod on a trail walk?

[Whiterabbit]

Hi Guys,

I'll try here before going to a muzzle loader specific forum, we got some smart guys here.

I use a brass range rod, and I really like it. I carry it on trail walks, too. A couple of our guys do that. They set the rods on the ground (tip up) during firing.

I'm working on my bag at the moment, so it's a good time to visit this. Surely there has to be a way to "prop up" the rod on me somehow in a standing position when I fire. A "sheath" or holster or belt loop or hook or something.

Any ideas how to carry a range rod (not in the gun!) conveniently for a simple trail walk? Surely something like maybe a hook or loop with snap on the belt, and rest it on my foot when firing, or maybe something that rides high on the bag and the rod hangs there on the palm saver after loading, or maybe someone smart even has a way to have it secured while walking and not loading (that would be especially awesome).

I'm blanking out.

[M-Tecs]

I made attachment clips for a self standing cane for a buddy or mine. He uses it as a walking stick and range rod holder. http://www.zoro.com/dmi-adjustable-cane-offset-29-12in-h-bronze-802-1333-5400/i/G9343406/?utm_source=Bing&utm_medium=cpc&utm_campaign=PLA

Before they were discontinued we purchased a 1/2 dozen of the Knight Ultimate rad rods. http://www.natchezss.com/ramrod-w-extending-jag-22-50.html. Wished I purchased more.

[Whiterabbit]

That's fabulous. I have something to look forward to when I get old. Sadly, I single handedly drag the average age of my club members down by at least 10 years. So I'm decades away from needing a walking cane. Anything I can attach to my bag, belt, shoe?

[M-Tecs]

I don't like stuff hanging from me when I am shooting. I don't need a cane or walking stick but I would consider it if I could not take may SASS ranger cart on the trail walk.

[Baja_Traveler]

My range rod has a 2 1/2" wooden ball on the handle end, and is just long enough to do the job, and no longer. The advantage of that ball (besides being super comfy in getting a tight patched ball down the bore without pounding) is that it hangs perfectly off my side in a belt loop intended for holding a hammer. The solution for me at least, is the nearest Home Depot...

[JSnover]

Anything I can attach to my bag, belt, shoe?
Maybe sling it on your back, like in a quiver, sort of. Don't know if that would be annoying while you're trying to shoot.

[Whiterabbit]

My range rod has a 2 1/2" wooden ball on the handle end, and is just long enough to do the job, and no longer. The advantage of that ball (besides being super comfy in getting a tight patched ball down the bore without pounding) is that it hangs perfectly off my side in a belt loop intended for holding a hammer. The solution for me at least, is the nearest Home Depot...

Must be a short rod. My flinter has a very long barrel. So basically, your load cadence, after pulling the rod from the barrel, is to drop it straight into that loop? Since the tip will be fairly high in the air at that point, seems like a reasonable place to go from...

[Squeeze]

I made attachment clips for a self standing cane for a buddy or mine. He uses it as a walking stick and range rod holder. http://www.zoro.com/dmi-adjustable-cane-offset-29-12in-h-bronze-802-1333-5400/i/G9343406/?utm_source=Bing&utm_medium=cpc&utm_campaign=PLA

Before they were discontinued we purchased a 1/2 dozen of the Knight Ultimate rad rods. http://www.natchezss.com/ramrod-w-extending-jag-22-50.html. Wished I purchased more.
Lehigh just announced since knight no longer offers the range rod, they were starting a production and marketing them themslves. should be available soon (The original maker, and maker of bloodline bullets among others)

[Squeeze]

as for the ramrod these are made for the smokeless guys. they dont swab. not sure how that would work. try contacting the maker http://www.smokelessmz.com/index.html


https://youtu.be/7zNwdWwbMk0

[Omnivore]

I believe that this is why they used a ram rod stowed on the gun, back in the day. With all due respect, that problem was thusly solved several hundred years ago.

I'd work on getting a stowed rod I could live with. Mine is Delrin. For a ball at the end I use my short starter, which was designed for that purpose and rides on my possibles bag or in my pocket.

I just don't see a problem that needs to be solved here. Think "field carry" and not what you'd do at a range in a fixed position with tables and stands and carts of gear, and then things become much more simple and your mind becomes clear. Those of us who hunt, and climb trees, and slog through heavy brush, and cross rivers and whatnot, soon find out that less is more when it comes to hauling gear around. If it worked for David Crockett it can be made to work for you too, if you put your mind to it. Self-contained loading tubes containing pre-measured charges, or paper cartridges, a high capacity capping tool, ramrod tips in your rifle's patchbox, and eventually you realize that you don't even need a possibles bag or a powder horn or measure - you took care of all that at home before going out. Now you're free of all that....stuff, and you can concentrate more on your shooting and trail experience.

[Fly]

I use a quiver. It works great for me.

Fly

[M-Tecs]

Lehigh just announced since knight no longer offers the range rod, they were starting a production and marketing them themslves. should be available soon (The original maker, and maker of bloodline bullets among others)

Thanks. Pic's look good. Hope the price reasonable http://www.huntingnet.com/forum/black-powder/401580-lehigh-defense-range-rod.html

[M-Tecs]

I believe that this is why they used a ram rod stowed on the gun, back in the day. With all due respect, that problem was thusly solved several hundred years ago.

I'd work on getting a stowed rod I could live with. Mine is Delrin. For a ball at the end I use my short starter, which was designed for that purpose and rides on my possibles bag or in my pocket.

I just don't see a problem that needs to be solved here. Think "field carry" and not what you'd do at a range in a fixed position with tables and stands and carts of gear, and then things become much more simple and your mind becomes clear. Those of us who hunt, and climb trees, and slog through heavy brush, and cross rivers and whatnot, soon find out that less is more when it comes to hauling gear around. If it worked for David Crockett it can be made to work for you too, if you put your mind to it. Self-contained loading tubes containing pre-measured charges, or paper cartridges, a high capacity capping tool, ramrod tips in your rifle's patchbox, and eventually you realize that you don't even need a possibles bag or a powder horn or measure - you took care of all that at home before going out. Now you're free of all that....stuff, and you can concentrate more on your shooting and trail experience.

The OP requested assistance on better ways to deal with a range rods on "trail walks". It appears from your reply you are unfamiliar with what a BP trail walk shoot is. Here is a couple on YouTube of https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GncSGgvf5GE & https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nJ3DFzBekGk

I shot one that had 27 stations and it took 3 to 4 hours to complete. Some of the stations required multiple shots I was very glad to have my cart and range rod.

[carbine]

Big Bowie or other knife, if the ground to keep the tip odd the ground

[Whiterabbit]

Keep them coming, I will catalog them all.

My first shot (I should have taken a picture) is a hangar I will try to add to my bag strap. It's made from a 2" piece of .75" diameter walnut rod. Drilled to .380, the top and bottom "crowned" to 20 degrees (makes a cup) and the side slotted to .38x". I wrapped it with leather which gives me a way to sew via sinew to the bag strap, chest height.

So Theoretically (very theoretically here), the rod can slip into the holder sideways then drop into the cup on top to hold it "secure". initial tests suggest there's no way to reasonably walk around that way, but that I think will not be a reasonable goal at this time. Whit I think it WILL let me do, is the same as the belt loop idea. I can walk with gun and rod, and just "hang" the rod on my body after loading for the moment I fire. the strap is on the left shoulder, so the right shoulder is still free to shoulder and fire the rifle.

So, no tree to lean against and lose the rod. :)

Again though, keep ideas coming. This idea is not aesthetically as pleasing as it could be (needs to be rebuilt), and functionally may turn out to work poorly when I test at the range.

[swathdiver]

Use a slightly thinner patch so you can ditch the brass rod and load easily with your ramrod. I reckon that accuracy will suffer little by doing such while on a trail walk.

[Whiterabbit]

Possibly, but the other thing I should probably mention is that the accuracy of this gun is so good (Joe really was the man) I am afraid to change anything I do with respect to loading and shooting. It shoots basically .5-.75 MOA from a bench at 50 yards. So, I actually don't like the patch material I use and really don't like the patch lube I use and really REALLY don't like the fact that it shoots shockingly dirty with the powder type and charge I use, but the gun has spoken, and that includes a rather tight fitting patch.

But I hear you on the patch fit. If I drop down to a .005 patch it's much easier to get it to go down the barrel. I think I could get away with a wood ramrod though for at least a year or two. It's the ball starter that I replaced the long rod with brass after breaking wood. (I do NOT think that would happen with the main ramrod, even wood)

These are the first three shots from the rifle, ever, 50 yards:

http://castboolits.gunloads.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=99883&d=1395166184
(I got to share that pic with Joe before he left)

Here's a year later, WITH a called flyer from me, I rotated the gun in the rest at the last moment:
http://castboolits.gunloads.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=103166&d=1398407376

(gun is regulated to shoot POI to 100, so 50 yards is a scoche high)

(I've never target shot at 100 yards, no plan to. Might be minute of buffalo at 100, and I am OK with that)

[Omnivore]

It appears from your reply you are unfamiliar with what a BP trail walk shoot is.

I've been on a Trail Walk actually. Once. My thesis holds. Less is more. The Trail Walk simulates various hunting scenarios, and so it stands to reason that one should equip one’s self as though hunting. If you feel you absolutely must have this or that, OK, but the thesis holds. A golf cart with air conditioning, cup holders, a cooler for beverages and a BBQ may be great too, but at some point it's no longer about learning practical shooting skills. At some point we forget what it means to carry a rifle for practical purposes.

Sorry; this has been a "thing" of mine for some time, as I notice the little disconnects, here and there, between range shooting in general, and the real thing. I don't want to spoil anyone's fun, and in fact I think it's fun to show up at a range with nothing visible on my person but for the firearm itself and a cartridge box on the belt. I can still swab my bore or clear a dry-ball, but I have less to carry than most other people, and with pre-loaded cartridges I can reload faster.

As a hunter, I started out hunting while carrying a possibles bag, horn, measure and so on, but today you don’t see anything on me but the rifle (I’ve got a capper around my neck and a short starter and two reloads in a pocket).

On a trail walk you need more ammo of course, but otherwise (or so I believe) one should keep it down to the basics. It’s just a different way of looking at it, and furthermore I assert that you’ll enjoy thinking that way, and the liberation that comes from it.

We went through this in the music business too. We started out as gear-heads, so we had the big, double kick drum set with racks of cymbals, and five or six tom toms, and so on and on, but as we went along we discovered the “Less is More” thesis (we hauled all our own gear) and things got MUCH better. We even sounded better because there were fewer inputs to gather feedback and so on. Guitar amps disappeared from the stage (and our transport vans) and it became even “More Better” as there were fewer sources for feedback and I had more control over the mix. Same concept at work there. It's a lifestyle.

[Omnivore]

I use a very tightly fit, patched ball also. A Delrin rod won't break. I've gotten used to the more flexible rod, and so it isn't difficult anymore. That and it's lighter than metal.

[Whiterabbit]

No worries guys, there's room in this hobby for everyone's tastes and style! (so I believe)

That's why I think I'd be perfectly comfy walking up to my next rifle shoot with five (yeah, five) sheaths sewn onto my bag strap. Noone does that on google images, and it'll look a scoche goofy, but doggone it, everything is there!

Now add a bizarro hangar above that, well.....

(I threaten my club that I'll come in wearing my kilt on occasion, too...)

[aspangler]

Dixie Gun Works has fiberglass ramrods that work VERY well in place of range rods. Not expensive either.

[quilbilly]

I use a quiver. It works great for me.

Fly Works for me too since I have several from my days in competitive archery. Most inexpensive ones just clip onto your belt and weigh practically nothing. With 4" by 24" long strip of leather you can make one easily and be legal for the primitive shoots,

[swathdiver]

That is some fine shooting and appears to be a well made rifle.

What I meant to convey in the earlier post was that it should not matter if your groups open up some on a trail walk, especially if you're mostly ringing steel.

That being said, there may be an adventure for you to discover a new load for trail works verses punching paper, working out a new load with more agreeable powder, lube and patch material.

My memory is so poor that every trip to the range is like the first time, and yes, I did write the information down, just can't remember where I put it anymore! ;-)

[Edward]

Adapt your starter with palm saver (carried in your bag) to attach to your rod .There are unions that will work .

[Whiterabbit]

Thanks Swath. I'm blessed to have met Joe before he left. I only just met him, and it really makes me wish I could have talked to him more. Even at that time I suspect he had forgotten more than I will ever know!

Anyway, I got a chance last night to try a bunch of ideas. Bizzare ideas that didn;t work, and finally something that was by far the simplest and seemed to work really well. Here is a delrin mock up:

http://o.aolcdn.com/hss/storage/fss/646e0087cdb97a67e7620df32fe39487
http://o.aolcdn.com/hss/storage/fss/a00679ee2eb12488574ef72d335a39f4

Just a delrin rod drilled to .375+, bored just over my rod riser diameter plus similar angle, then slotted .375 so the rod slips in. Then attached to a leather loop and slipped onto the bag.

The rod hangs from my left breast, and because the head of the palm saver is basically captured, it's secure. No good for walking, but it's small, unobtrusive, and wherever the bag is, the keeper is.

I'm gonna try it. So I made a "not ugly" one out of some manzanita I have (from an uncle's property in Oregon)

http://o.aolcdn.com/hss/storage/fss/8b1a81ea32efb92b4cafa08e6a95dd7b
http://o.aolcdn.com/hss/storage/fss/194d21ac650c61d3ca64abed8c9c875a
http://o.aolcdn.com/hss/storage/fss/5b63f13056c029fbb753654505cf5f6f

I think I could make it a "walking" version by combining the belt loop idea here or the arrow quill idea here to control the tip. For now, I'll try as is and just use it as a hangar while shooting.

Thanks for the ideas. I'm sure the beltloop and arrow quill ideas are going to swim around my head for the next week and a half at least.

[gnoahhh]

Over a lifetime of shooting muzzle loaders (I'm 63) I have never resorted to a range rod- and that's for untold tens of thousands of shots fired hunting, plinking, informal and formal match shooting, trail walks, and re-ennacting (Civil and Rec War). I hold to the theory that after loading, the rod goes back under the barrel where it belongs. I have never ever broken a ram rod, and some of my rifles shot best with very tight patch/ball combinations. I never felt handicapped in using the ram rod (always made of hickory, for me) for cleaning and the occasional ball pulling chores.

I really dislike lugging a lot of unnecessary junk along when doing matches, woods walks, etc. I always shoot from the bag, even if local regs specify stepping back from the firing line when reloading. Any incremental extra items I might "possibly" need for a day of shooting goes into my possibles bag and not into my shooting bag or box, or chest, or cart- regardless it's all carried efficiently on my person.

One thing I've learned in life: less is more. Lighten up the load, and learn to use what you have efficiently.

Just an approach that works for me. Your mileage may vary!

[Whiterabbit]

Just a side question gnoahhh, do you carry used swabs too (this would apply where there isn't a can near by to toss them), or do you toss away after use? Unless you don't swab between shots of course. (my club has rules).

[Omnivore]

Whiterabbit; Sorry; I don't meant to pick on you. That is some nice shooting too, by the way.

I toss my dirty patches. I figure that a few grams of natural fiber added to the millions of tons of it already in the environment won't be a problem. At a range, that may be a different story for some folks. I'm not accustomed to rules other than the ones that come to me naturally in the moment, but if I had to save my dirty patches I'd pick them up off the ground after finishing a stage. They'd go into a plastic bag in my pocket. I'm used to flicking them off the end of my ram rod, onto the ground.

The patches I use for cleaning are white cotton, but I suppose that if I were concerned about the ground appearing "littered" then one option would be a dead-leaf-colored patch, and let them lie. What do the range rules say about shooting patches? Do we have to find those and collect them too?

[Whiterabbit]

well, I certainly don't collect shooting patches, but I do throw away the swabbing patches. For trail walks on some guy's property, just seems polite to pick them up. I do the same at the range. I think the other guys reuse the same patch a BUNCH, but I don't get that luxury for how dirty the rifle shoots. I'm the only guy who gets a pile of swab patches collected at the end of a stage.

Dunno, doesn't bother me TOO much, as long as I can place every now and again in a stage, but I thought I might do something about patch management too so I can keep them collected but not get myself too dirty messing with it.

never thought about a ziploc bag (too easy I guess!). seems like a good idea.

[gnoahhh]

When target shooting/plinking, because I shoot a load that is relatively light (a wise man told me once that the ball only has to make it to the target, no sense in slamming it with a heavy powder charge) and primarily only shoot patched round balls (with spit patches), the wet patches effectively clean the minimal amounts of fowling (from those extremely light loads) with each loading. It's a rare day in which I have to resort to swabbing the barrel while shooting. Do it right, ie: light loads of fine powder, tight patch/ball combo, spit patch (or some other liquidy lube), in a bore with decently smooth rifling, and you can fire dozens of shots before needing to swab. Does accuracy fall off? Maybe a little bit, but probably no more than it falls off after a long grind of shooting off the hind legs anyway.

I do carry a small handful of soft cotton swabbing patches, in my possibles bag not my shooting bag, and if I do use one or two (well soaked with spit), I put them back in the possibles bag- in the empty sandwich baggie or somesuch.

[flyingmonkey35]

When I shoot muzzle loader in compentaiton. Some events are shoot from the bag.

That means you don't leave the firing line and it should be all on you or you gun.

If you really love your brass ramrod for hunting. You can build a simple scabbard. Like a sword scabberd that slings from the hip.

Look at images for possible bags for idea's.

[Geezer in NH]

Simple in the bore, like many did.

[gnoahhh]

?????

[Whiterabbit]

I assume he means inside the barrel with the barrel pointed up. it actually doesn't sound half bad. I'd be nervous cause my rod is solid brass, and even with the crown protector, it's kind of a lot of banging on the crown, but it IS brass afterall, and with all the banging we do around that muzzle anyways, if it still shoots straight like it does......

If I had a second wood ramrod it would be a really good suggestion.

[rfd]

really, taking a range rod on a leisurely woods walk? maybe a short starter and hammer, too? lol! don't get me wrong, i can appreciate that, yes - a tight prb can be more consistently accurate, but at what cost? that ain't fun, and this trad ml stuff should be fun. leave the serious anal stuff for the range and enjoy a trad ml the way it was revered and used back in its day. life's too short for short starters and prb hammer pounding. jmho and surely ymmv.

[Black Powder Bill]

Been on lots of WW .I drop the patch down one size,or shoot a .437 instead of a .440.

[rfd]

coning the muzzle, as was done centuries ago - along with an appropriate sized ball, and well lubed patch thickness, and appropriate powder charge - will make for easy loading with just a stout hickory rod, and could also typically render less fouling issues, and will almost always deliver quite acceptable accuracy. it just takes some experimenting of the fore mentioned components. truthfully, this trad ml thing is s'posed to be fun and not work.

[Black Powder Bill]

Coning? or Conning? I don't recall reading any centuries old info on coning the muzzle. I did make it through the coning craze some years back with all my muzzles intact. I never understood why people would cone a muzzle then used a rod bore/muzzle protector.
That just confused me, use a bore muzzle protector to keep the muzzle nice and round or grind out the muzzle to make loading easier claiming it does not effect accuracy. So who is telling the truth?

T/C has the counter sunk muzzle , I had a Renegade that had that & yes it was nice starting a minie and PBR.

[rfd]

there are numerous references to our early era gunsmiths' employing a coned (aka "coning" as in "cone-ing") rifle and fowler long gun muzzle.

here is an excerpt from historical gunsmith peter a. alexander's excellent treatise on building the american long rifle "the gunsmith of grenville county" ...

http://i.imgur.com/TTUZzPY.jpg

i use a special brass coning tool and abrasive paper to lightly cone muzzles. it still allows me to cut patch strips at the muzzle, whilst making pushing down the prb easier.

[Black Powder Bill]

Yes I have to book and his fact is based on one pistol. Nothing sneaky about it at all. Still can not see why a dueling pistol would be coned, you're firing one shot that IS PRE LOADED.

A blunderbuss is a whole different critter whereas the muzzle is formed flared for loading on the run.

In Alexander's opinion it does not matter where a bullet leaves the rifling at. IMO and a whole lot of other folks think that it does matter. If Alexander's opinion is so strong then why did he make so many rifles with such long barrels since it does not matter when the PBR leaves the barrel.

He could have rifled 18" and added on another 24" of smoothbore and had the same effect.

I personally know guys who coned and had the muzzle coned and I watched them sell those rifles off in less than one season of completive shooting. I also know guys who shoot and win at the international level and their muzzles are not coned.

Alexander's entire statement is bizarre. How does he know the French pistol was coned? Maybe it was loaded and fired hundreds of times like the antique ML'ers I've seen that had worn muzzles from shooting.
If coning was so great then why didn't military rifles have coned muzzles for faster reloading

Coning is like the guys who spend $500.00+ on a stock then have a wood sliding patch box cut into it ruining the nice grain they paid to see. I oft wondered if they also had plate and silverware impressions cut into the dining room table.

I'll keep my barrels all nice and bore diametric out to the crown.

[rfd]

bpb - it appears you totally misread paa's excerpt shown above.

to each their own and such is the diversity of life, which is always a good thing, even when it appears not so good.

[mazo kid]

Bre'r Rabbit, I understand your question.....really I do. But after doing many woods walks I would never consider taking along a brass range rod. Unless you used it to replace your wooden ramrod in the thimbles on your rifle. If you use a short starter, then your regular ramrod should be sufficient to push the ball home. The only other suggestion I would offer if you want the range rod is to make a horizontal clip (like a holster clip) on a belt or sling to tightly hold the rod from slipping. A lot of the woods walks I have done are also timed events, and IMHO the range rod would add time to your score. Check your PM.

[Whiterabbit]

Fortunately our woods walks are not timed. Just leisure. By any means.

[Geezer in NH]

?????Easy put the rod down the bore keep the muzzle elevated.

[rfd]

i dunno about most folks, but for me, using the barrel as a rod quiver is tantamount to launching the rod with the ball. :lol:

[dondiego]

Shooting your ramrod definitely increases recoil....................I was 16 at the time. Rod was never the same after that.

[Sharpsman]

Stick it in your boot!!

[Geezer in NH]

i dunno about most folks, but for me, using the barrel as a rod quiver is tantamount to launching the rod with the ball. :lol:
When you are to stupid to walk and chew gum IMHO

[Whiterabbit]

Alright, alright, no need for that, plenty of room for the technical opinions of all...

[OverMax]

Take a youngster along on the walk when possible. Have em carry the range rod. Good way to introduce that child to the shooting sports.

[Whiterabbit]

Now THAT idea I like! I don;t even mind the fact that I would have to load the rifle twice after a couple years of having the mule, er, I mean my son join me!

Actually, I was thinking about trying to get my wife and kids to join me this year. I don;t think it's going to happen since my second son is 18 months, but a guy can dream of taking his 4 year old to watch the fun.