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OS OK
01-24-2016, 05:06 PM
This following 'interpretation' is from an article published in "SPEER, Manual #7 for Reloading Ammunition", pub. 1966-7. author; DR. Edgar L. Eichhorn

I had to read it several times endeavoring to understand exactly what happens in this 'Internal Ballistics' subject as it was different than I'd imagined. Another problem for me was this event all took place in 1.35 milliseconds, .00135 second, 135/100,000's second. PDQ< 'pretty damn quick'. When I drew a pair of lines horizontally across the paper and imagined those lines representing my rifle barrel and filled in the information presented and realized that those lines also represented a 'time line'…facts started to sort themselves out and these numbers started to make perfect sense.

I have followed the threads regarding 'Powder burn Rates' and found them very informative. The posts make it clear to me that some of us, try as we might, do not have a true or factual understanding of this sequence of events. Our choices in Powders in many instances are unfounded and misunderstood. On the other end…some here have a very in depth understanding and their explanations parallel findings found in 'white papers' published in 'Academias' circles where Physicist and the like baffle each other with the latest minutia in their fields. The 'bottom line' regarding all this is…Us 'Blue Collar' types don't usually have a clue as to what these people are talking about. On the other hand, we do understand clearly presented facts.

Please take the time to round up a pencil/paper and do a quick sketch for yourself as I did…I promise, you won't soon throw it away.

The 'Pyrostatic Epoch' begins with 'primer ignition'
elapsed time (et.) 5/100,000's second
the boolit is just this instant going to 'START' to move, but it has not
6,000 lbs./sq.in. pressure develops, the brass swells in chamber and seals it
4,000* F. temperature/in chamber
3 1/2% of powder charge is consumed

The tip of the boolit has traveled 1 inch, is now fully in lands/grooves and engraved, acceleration has begun
et. 40/100,000's second
70,000 lbs./sq.in. and pressure is now at maximum
3,470* F. temperature is maximum
38% of powder charge is consumed
1,000 FPS Velocity and climbing
681.8 MPH and heading toward the sound barrior [ V x FPS x .6818 = MPH ] {this my extrapolation, hope it is correct.)

The boolit has traveled 9 inches and the 'Propulsive Epoch' has ended
et. 75/100,000's second
24,000 lbs./sq. in. pressure and is in 'decline' as the accelerating boolit is making more volume behind it than the 'hi-pressure gasses' are able to fill.
2,300* F. also in decline
100% of charge is consumed
2,200 FPS Velocity and climbing as it is under 'Hot expanded gas propulsion' only, from here on out
1,499 MPH has broken the sound barrier and continues to climb

The boolit is exiting the 27 in. barrel
et. 135/100,000's second…1.35 millisecond… .00135s
6,000 lbs./sq. in. remaining pressure flashes into atmosphere and is luminous to the eye…this is where some of us remember to put in our 'earplugs'.
1,490* F. gasses and powder and lube smoke fill the air, eyes pop and everyone grins real wide. The virginity of a fresh 'bullseye' is currently at risk!
2,700 FPS Velocity and this now is in decline
1,840 MPH and if it travels downrange aprox. 900 yards it will again cross back through the sound barrier where its RPM will be a critical factor in flight.
162,000 RPM as it emerges from this 1:12 twist barrel [ ((12/T) x V)60)=RPM ]…short version > [ (V x 720)/T = RPM ]…T=twist, V=velocity

The author never stated what this cartridge was nor the powder but probably a proof round at this pressure and a .30/06 or .308, not that it matters really but it just puzzled me as it did some of you. Could be of several different calibers as we don't know the projectile weight or diameter...although…
none of that matters as we can see that these 'facts' do apply to a 'rifle' and it has been the speculation of us all as to whether or not a certain powder will do this or that. Given a more clear picture of 'internal ballistics' in this 'general description' I think we can all take a moment and do some 'Mulling' because more than one of us here are now 're-figuring' our assessments of the things that 'go bang' in the chamber.

The author mentioned that the 9 inch point in the barrel will vary from shot to shot and of course vary with a faster/slower 'rifle' powder but not change 'appreciabily'. The following calibers/powders reach their respective max./pressure at the following times. Only the graphs were published and did not state at what point the projectile was in the barrel. (Varying case volumes/bore dia.'s would account for much of this discrepancy in time.)

.222 Rem. Mag., IMR 4198…max.@ 32/100,000's sec.
.22-250……………..IMR 4320…………….58/100,000's sec.
.243 Win…………...IMR 4350…………...66/100,000's sec.
7mm Rem. Mag...IMR 4831…………...64/100,000's sec.
.300 Win. Mag…...IMR 4350…………...62/100,000's sec.

These all so close together represent to me that 'in general' that the boolit will be aprox. 9 inches down barrel when we speak of 'powder burn rates' and I can't see it varying by wild amounts until we start comparing pistol powders.

I have searched the net and never found any articles that give this same run-down for pistol powder…if any of you here should ever find one…or anything close please post here and advise us all as I find this to be one of the 'most informative' articles I have ever read.

Thanks for your patience…hope this clears some misguided reasoning out there…Also…I think this extremely hi-pressure round is a 'Proof Round'.

duckey
01-24-2016, 05:27 PM
Thanks for sharing!!

Wayne Smith
01-25-2016, 12:01 PM
I enjoyed it and would also like to see the same for pistol powders.

Digital Dan
01-25-2016, 06:49 PM
External ballistics is understood to some degree by a fair number of shooters.
Internal ballistics is understood by a few.
Terminal ballistics is a black art which allows only those in the afterlife to comprehend.

OS OK
01-25-2016, 07:15 PM
Digital Dan…great analogy…funny too!

Blackwater
01-25-2016, 07:37 PM
Great post, and +1 more with Dan. I understand just enough to make some half-way intelligent powder choices .... usually. If anyone here understands all about these things, they're smarter and have studied MUCH harder and longer than I have! The more we learn and the more we shoot and reload, the more questions we always seem to have, and answers like these sure tend to put things into a bit clearer perspective for most, I think. And us old heads always benefit from reviewing our understanding, and updating it regularly too. If we ever learn it all, it'd become boring I'm afraid. I don't think I'll ever have to risk that happening, though!

Artful
01-25-2016, 10:39 PM
An intelligent post with great information - and a little minutia

Thank you for your post OS OK (http://castboolits.gunloads.com/member.php?42565-OS-OK)

11B-101ABN
01-26-2016, 12:13 AM
I always thought 751 mph, or 1101 fps was the sound barrier. That would make 2200fps and 1499mph Mach 2, or am I missing something?

Wayne Smith
01-26-2016, 08:56 AM
Sound barrier speed varies with air pressure, I believe.

Artful
01-26-2016, 12:32 PM
Sound barrier speed varies with air pressure, I believe.

Air Density - directly related to tempature

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2ANChjjb1J0

nvreloader
01-26-2016, 01:07 PM
OS OK

Great info/post. :-)

70,000 PSI?

IMHO, I don't want to be the one behind that rifle!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Tia,
Don

white eagle
01-26-2016, 01:11 PM
interesting
I to would like to see a comparable analogy with pistol
calibers and powders
the point a to b is insetting but what I am really concerned with
is point c.....:drinks:

nvreloader
01-26-2016, 01:13 PM
DD

There are some of us that HAVE experienced the "Terminal Ballistics", it is NOT FUN,
and we are NOT in the afterlife yet. LoL.

Tia,
Don


External ballistics is understood to some degree by a fair number of shooters.
Internal ballistics is understood by a few.
Terminal ballistics is a black art which allows only those in the afterlife to comprehend.

Markbo
01-26-2016, 01:47 PM
I am most curious what caliber that is and what weight bullet. 70,000 psi seems awfully high for ANY Sammi cartridge.

OS OK
01-26-2016, 07:57 PM
I always thought 751 mph, or 1101 fps was the sound barrier. That would make 2200fps and 1499mph Mach 2, or am I missing something?

The speed of sound is the distance traveled per unit time by a sound wave (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sound_wave) propagating through an elastic (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Elasticity_(solid_mechanics)) medium. The SI unit (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/International_System_of_Units) of speed is the metre per second (m/s). In dry air (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Air) at 20 °C, the speed of sound is 343.2 metres per second (1,126 ft/s). This is 1,236 kilometres per hour (768 mph; 667 kn), or a kilometre in 2.914 s or a mile in 4.689 s.

Here's the lowdown from WikipediA…seems everyone believes them. I think I put a (?) mark by that calc….you missing something? I dunnoh!

Markbo…article said it was all lab work over an extended test period with many test points.

Artful…Mighty damn interesting, now all I have to do is remember all that and I'm good to go!

Possum Lickaa
03-17-2016, 11:54 AM
Great Post. Very informative. More gun trivia to share!

Ballistics in Scotland
03-17-2016, 12:27 PM
It is extremely good, but I think it is a pity the term "propulsive epoch" was used. "9inches down the barrel" with the .30-06 means about eleven and a half inches from the breech face. The effect of barrel length on velocity is often overrated, but the .30-06 and many other firearms, as his own figures bear out, will get considerably more velocity from a long barrel than from an 11½ inch one. Propulsion continues as long as the pressure on the rear of the bullet is sufficiently greater than air pressure on the front to overcome friction. Only an extraordinarily long barrel will cease to impart at least trifling acceleration, or even slow the bullet through friction.

Walter Laich
03-17-2016, 12:28 PM
Then there are folks like me that use whatever powder the gun shop has on its shelves. Hard to gather data on a certain powder when it's out of stock


would also like to see pistol powder undergo the same tests

olafhardt
03-19-2016, 08:35 AM
OS OK

Great info/post. :-)

70,000 PSI?

IMHO, I don't want to be the one behind that rifle!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Tia,
Don
Even today our pressure measuring equipment probably can not be calibrated to accurately measure those kinds of pressures. You can use piesos and strain gauges to get a number but you can't prove its accuracy by comparing it to a primary standard. I spent a lot of time as a measuring engineer and I just can't see how anyone was ever able to get these kind of numbers accurately. I regard this as perhaps theory and not good theory. The pressures, temperatures,etc weren't measured and could not be. Smokeless powder does not burn or combust but instead disassociates. I can not accept that this reaction is necessarily completed in the bore. I don't know what if anything one would use this for but I'll caution you that it looks to be a worthless fabrication to me. YMMV.

GLynn41
03-19-2016, 10:27 AM
I had that manual --but did not remember this article thanks very much for it

OS OK
03-19-2016, 11:10 AM
For you fellas that think this is 'miss-information' re: 70,000 lbs/sq.in. let me explain this…They use 'proof loads' for testing barrels. I think they used those for the test…to look at the extremes or to see that the proofs acted in relation to standard pressure loads…I dunno.
If memory serves me, the proof load for the .45 ACP is 22,000 lbs/sq.in. ( Cartridges of the world, U.S. Military Ammunition ) seems pretty high huh?

olafhardt…They used 'copper crushers' to get the pressures then. The temps. etc. I would imagine were extrapolated from known values…otherwise they'd be pulling information right out of their butts. I think this is genuine.

olafhardt
03-19-2016, 08:30 PM
For you fellas that think this is 'miss-information' re: 70,000 lbs/sq.in. let me explain this…They use 'proof loads' for testing barrels. I think they used those for the test…to look at the extremes or to see that the proofs acted in relation to standard pressure loads…I dunno.
If memory serves me, the proof load for the .45 ACP is 22,000 lbs/sq.in. ( Cartridges of the world, U.S. Military Ammunition ) seems pretty high huh?

olafhardt…They used 'copper crushers' to get the pressures then. The temps. etc. I would imagine were extrapolated from known values…otherwise they'd be pulling information right out of their butts. I think this is genuine.
When I first read of the copper crushers I laughed out loud but I couldn't think of anything better. I think your are exactly right about where they pulled the data from.

Wizwheel
03-19-2016, 09:36 PM
Now we need Morgan Freeman to narrate the above. Now that would be perfection.

OS OK
03-20-2016, 08:04 PM
Now we need Morgan Freeman to narrate the above. Now that would be perfection.

:bigsmyl2:<<<<<<ME….reading your post!

PS...olafhardt…Do you currently hold that 'world record' on those 'chrony critters'?

olafhardt
03-21-2016, 09:18 PM
:bigsmyl2:<<<<<<ME….reading your post!

PS...olafhardt…Do you currently hold that 'world record' on those 'chrony critters'?
I do indeed. I held a contest on this forum. Note the contest is for the CLOSEST range at which a person unintentionally shot a crony. The committee composed totally of me made the award. If anyone is interested we could hold another contest

OS OK
03-21-2016, 11:33 PM
I do indeed. I held a contest on this forum. Note the contest is for the CLOSEST range at which a person unintentionally shot a crony. The committee composed totally of me made the award. If anyone is interested we could hold another contest

That would make a very interesting post to follow…How did you do it? What was your reaction? Looking back there might be some funny stories out there at the same time. It's always easier to laugh at your dumb stunts after you have a chance to blow off the first rise of anger. Giver a try…why not?

olafhardt
03-22-2016, 08:32 PM
Tell you what, I'll set up another contest on its own thread. Since I am the previous winner, I will disqualify my self. I make all the rules although I will consider sugestions. Please feel to donate lube grooves which will be used as prlzes. Hollow points will only be accepted with out the surrouding boolit.