HP Expansion Help

[12DMAX]

I am using a MP 359-640 Mold with Round Pins. Shot out of my 3" Revolver, Average over the Chronograph is 1265fps. Shooting these into water jugs I have used both ACWW+2%SN and AC 50/50 (WW/Pipe)+2%SN with the same results. First Jug just explodes apart, second jug is ripped up also and laying in the 4th jug is the bullet. As you can see the Nose is gone. Which way should I go with my alloy to keep these Together?

[vzerone]

First thing is water quench them from the mold or oven heat treat them. See what they do then.

[12DMAX]

First thing is water quench them from the mold or oven heat treat them. See what they do then.

vzerone If I May, what am I looking too do by hardening these?

[vzerone]

Slow the expansion down. The bullet you pictured look very good for hunting purposes if it expanded the same in animal tissue. Some cast hollow point hunters feel the hollow should work in this manner: Penetrate the animal, nose expands rapidity, the mushroom shears off, the remaining core keep going and exits the body. If you think about it that is much like the Nosler Partition bullet and how it works.

What is it you are trying to achieve?

[12DMAX]

Personal Defense, an EDC load. I may already have it? If I only had some Gelatin to really see whats going on.

[Blammer]

EDC?

for PD, I'd say you got it. The frags are probably in the first jug and that's where you want them when trying to put down a varmint.

[vzerone]

Yes I'd say you are very close.

[12DMAX]

Personal Defense, an EDC load. I may already have it? If I only had some Gelatin to really see whats going on.

[12DMAX]

Fat Fingered Something? lol. There are alot of fragments on the table around Jugs 1 and 2.

[leftiye]

Add some tin and/or copper to toughen your alloy. You don't need any more than 3% antimony, it causes fragmentation. Hardening will slow expansion, won't help fragmentation. Smaller hollow point cavity is another good idea. Turn down the pins some. A shallower conical depression will be conducive to mushrooming without losing the nose.

[Forrest r]

I have the same mold ans have done a little testing with the round and penta point hp's.

Perhaps you should do a little testing with different velocities in the same water jug setup. Use the same alloy and try loads at 800fps/1000fps/1200fps.

You will find that you get to a point when the hp fails, that's the easy part. The hard part is why. Most of the time it's the design of the hp that is the deciding factor. Typically high velocity hp's need either a shallow cupped hp or a small diameter hp pin for the caliber to be able to stay intact. These Mihec 640 hp's, I own/tested the 359-125 (9mm), 359-640 (38spl/357), 432-640 (44spl/mag), have large hp cavities and tend to do best in the 800-1000fps for the penta point and 1000-1200fps for the round hp's.

When I start getting over 1200fps I tend to use small hp'd bullets. This cramer 25a know as their "hunter" bullet is a 158gr hp with a small hp hole for the 357.

http://i162.photobucket.com/albums/t242/forrestr-photo/27787c15-dac2-489b-a697-37508cdec5de_zpsb6a2p6x4.jpg (http://s162.photobucket.com/user/forrestr-photo/media/27787c15-dac2-489b-a697-37508cdec5de_zpsb6a2p6x4.jpg.html)

Not my photo but it clearly shows the difference in hp sizes that others use for different applications. I make my own hp pins and for different molds and follow the same principals, small hp ='s fast/large hp ='s slow.

http://i162.photobucket.com/albums/t242/forrestr-photo/357amp38hp_zpsertllrda.jpg (http://s162.photobucket.com/user/forrestr-photo/media/357amp38hp_zpsertllrda.jpg.html)

More Mihec hp's, these are the 432-256's hp's. The penta is best @ 800-1000fps, the large rn hp 1000-1200fps, the small round hp 1200-1400fps.

http://i162.photobucket.com/albums/t242/forrestr-photo/93019292-24db-4523-9b6a-a1e9713f36e8_zpscuaszhrw.jpg (http://s162.photobucket.com/user/forrestr-photo/media/93019292-24db-4523-9b6a-a1e9713f36e8_zpscuaszhrw.jpg.html)

Some 35cal (38spl/357) hp's that I've tested in anything from 2" bbl'd snubnoses to 10" contender bbl's.

http://i162.photobucket.com/albums/t242/forrestr-photo/af7bb604-c362-4b49-80b7-cc4676d519ad_zps6wxqrard.jpg (http://s162.photobucket.com/user/forrestr-photo/media/af7bb604-c362-4b49-80b7-cc4676d519ad_zps6wxqrard.jpg.html)

Top left: 147gr home swaged hp for the 9mm/38spl/357
Top green: Mihec 359-640's
Top red: lyman 358439
Top plain: lyman 358477
Top far right: lyman 358156
Bottom left: cramer #26
Bottom center: cramer #25a
Bottom right: h&g #51

As you can see, different bullets, different hp depths, different hp shapes and sizes. Out of all of those hp's pictured above I use the small holed cramer #25a when I want a hv lead hp for the 357.

The real question is, do you really care if the bullet frags? You might consider testing your bullet in some tightly bundled newspaper and then soaking it for 24 hours and do some testing with it. Don't know if it's true or not but they say wet paper is = to around 1 1/2 time what you get from gel. Hence, 6" of penetration in paper ='s 9" of penetration in gel.

Don't know if this will help but I've always started with:
800fps ='s 8bhn
900fps ='s 9bhn
1000fps ='s 10bhn
ETC
As a starting point and then tried to adjust the alloy from there. Sometimes it's just the mechanics/design of the hp that will not alloy them to perform after a certain velocity.

http://i162.photobucket.com/albums/t242/forrestr-photo/Pencil_hardness_versus_lead_alloy_hardness2-579x402_zps4e1bbf80.jpg (http://s162.photobucket.com/user/forrestr-photo/media/Pencil_hardness_versus_lead_alloy_hardness2-579x402_zps4e1bbf80.jpg.html)

[vzerone]

Nice write up and pics Forest. Thanks

[gwpercle]

Water is hard on boolits, a hard brittle boolit just fractures, looking at your results, they seem to be doing just fine. Try shooting into wet news print or ballistic gel. Another thing is slowing down that 1265 fps is a bit fast for lead . Also 1265 from a 3 inch barrel has to be a fairly warm load. In fact try some loads at ranging between 850 and 1000 fps with the same alloy and see how they react. I think the problem is too much speed, I like your alloy.
Gary

[trixter]

Forrest r: thanks for the hardness chart, that is very enlightening.

[12DMAX]

Everyone thanks allot for the responses, I am going to keep the alloy at ACWW first and try them in newsprint, like has been said I may be where i need to be for a Two legged self defence load. Will the home made gelatin tell anything more than newsprint? If so I may try whipping some up. For now I have lots of newsprint.

[MT Gianni]

What is the weight difference? Did the bullet track straight? I would be hard pressed to want better performance from looks. If it lost 1/3 it's weight but tracked straight that would be acceptable from a 3" revolver. Crazy but if you want more weight retention slow it down.

[12DMAX]

What is the weight difference? Did the bullet track straight? I would be hard pressed to want better performance from looks. If it lost 1/3 it's weight but tracked straight that would be acceptable from a 3" revolver. Crazy but if you want more weight retention slow it down.

They did track straight through the jugs, 158Gr going in and 98Gr coming out.

[Forrest r]

Forrest r: thanks for the hardness chart, that is very enlightening.

Thank you for that.

I keep that simple chart around because my short term memory isn't getting any longer and my long term memory is getting shorter.

Done a little testing with that mihec 359-640 hp and the 359-125 (a 9mm 125gr 640 style bullet) and those large hp's seem to do their best in the 1100fps range after testing several different alloys. Which makes these bullets an excellent choice for short bbl'd firearms.

A 3" bbl'd 9mm 125gr round hp chronographed at 1050fps shot into wet newspaper.

http://i162.photobucket.com/albums/t242/forrestr-photo/9mmtaurus_zpsnlqcm8kg.jpg (http://s162.photobucket.com/user/forrestr-photo/media/9mmtaurus_zpsnlqcm8kg.jpg.html)

Did some testing with the 158gr hp's that your using in a snub nosed 38spl, they did extremely will with p+/900fps and change loads (penta points).

Some people like the picture perfect hp that looks good (see picture posted above:kidding:) but in reality it's only eye candy. It actually sounds like you got 1 heck of a load for a 3" bbl and I'd hate to go down range with my catchers mitt on and have you toss a couple my way.

You'll probably be surprised when you shoot them into wet paper, that load/bullet combo should do 9"+ all day long. And that my friend is impressive!!!

There's 2 types of wound channels, the massive temporary one from mushrooming hp's that stay intact. Or the wound channels that are permanent from bullets exploding/fragging as the penetrate.

http://i162.photobucket.com/albums/t242/forrestr-photo/bullethole_zps8e35b91d.jpg (http://s162.photobucket.com/user/forrestr-photo/media/bullethole_zps8e35b91d.jpg.html)

All the kings men ain't puttin that one back together again.

Anyway, good testing and good load.

I really really like the sound of your load. Perhaps I could pm you about it? I'm a huge 357 fan and just haven't had the time to do allot of testing with these bullets. Too many irons in the fire. I'm sure you picked up on some likes/dis-likes with this bullet.

[12DMAX]

I really really like the sound of your load. Perhaps I could pm you about it? I'm a huge 357 fan and just haven't had the time to do allot of testing with these bullets. Too many irons in the fire. I'm sure you picked up on some likes/dis-likes with this bullet.

You sure can, I really am new too casting, only been doing it for 3 years now and only just started too mess around with this bullet. I have a long way too go with testing before I will bet my life on this bullet for EDC.

[Ricochet]

I don't see the problem. Looks to me like your boolit performs perfectly for its intended use.

[12DMAX]

I don't see the problem. Looks to me like your boolit performs perfectly for its intended use.

I think you are correct. I really want too see it in gelatin.

[jtaylor1960]

It looks to be working very well as is.That is a big hollow point.You may be able to get more weight retention by adding more lead to dilute the antimony.