DOT officer.

[starmac]

Well I stopped by the scalehouse yesterday and grabbed a 515 buck fine, it seems like I had a couple too many sticks on.
I got tickled when his computer kept messing up, at one time it even claimed my license was invalid. He knew better, because he had run it last week (had one too many sticks on lol)
I kept telling him the computer was nicer than him and DIDN'T want to fine me. lol

[freebullet]

Ouch...that sux.

I'm fortunate I can license my box truck for more than I'll ever haul in it. Does hauling to many sticks maintain profit enough to render the fine irrelevant?
A friend always seems to get pinched for #2 in his tractor puller tanks. He just starts writing a 300$ check when he gets checked.
My rig runs within the city and I can usually turn off ahead of time to avoid them wasting my time while looking for their payday. I feel for ya.

[Houndog]

Starmac,
IF you are goin to keep drivin a truck you're goin to have to learn to avoid the chicken houses and the barney fifes they've got runnin around with the portables! If your boss ain't paying the fines, he got at least a day's wages off you if things are like they were when I drove a Coal truck! I finally quit playing their games and went to mega hauls. The last thing they want is for you to pull 4-500,000 pound rail trailer load across their scales, and you've got the paperwork when you move something like that.

[Epd230]

515 is cheap for an overweight fine

[odinohi]

Big radio is your friend

[starmac]

Going around scales in Alaska, you are going to be driving something besides a truck, maybe a snowmachine. lol
There is no turning off and going around.

[Tackleberry41]

I always thought the old trick was to take the state roads to avoid the weigh stations on the main highways? And does your boss pay this or you? Everybody I have talked to in trucking says its a brutal job, that the only way to make money is not go home or have a family.

[dtknowles]

Why do people have a problem following the rules. Does nobody have integrity anymore. I know there are too many rules but the solution is not deliberately breaking them and then talking about how to avoid getting caught, that sounds criminal. Are you criminals? I have a coworker who still uses a radar detector type thing, I asked him why not just drive the speed limit and he just goes baah, grumble, grumble, that's for wusses. He has a 30 minute commute that he can maybe save 5 minutes on if he drives 15 over, ignorant. Oh and he complains about people only doing 5 over in the left lane. The speed limit is 70. He wants to do 85.

Tim

[Finster101]

Having been to AK on a motorcycle I get what Starmac means. There ain't that many roads fellas.

[Geezer in NH]

Smart move would be don't overload.

[Houndog]

The thing most of you folks saying "don't overload" don't understand is there's no scales where Starmac is loading nor in the Coal pits where I used to load. You put on what you think is close to right and you maybe legal, or maybe not. Barney Fife could care less what your intentions are. If you are over you pay! Now I will admit when I hauled Coal we got paid by the ton and I loaded every pound I could get on the truck every load from the Coal pit to the tipple.(where the Coal is processed and usually loaded on rail cars) While some folks frown on that, I and everyone else in the business just called it makin a living for my family, and Yes I've paid my fair share of overweight tickets in the process.

[nvbirdman]

Was his computer tied into the scales in any way? If so, you may be able to fight the ticket by complaining that he was having a problem with his
computer.

[dtknowles]

The thing most of you folks saying "don't overload" don't understand is there's no scales where Starmac is loading nor in the Coal pits where I used to load. You put on what you think is close to right and you maybe legal, or maybe not. Barney Fife could care less what your intentions are. If you are over you pay! Now I will admit when I hauled Coal we got paid by the ton and I loaded every pound I could get on the truck every load from the Coal pit to the tipple.(where the Coal is processed and usually loaded on rail cars) While some folks frown on that, I and everyone else in the business just called it makin a living for my family, and Yes I've paid my fair share of overweight tickets in the process.

If the overload is not deliberate, not due to lack of attention, not due to negligence, etc. I don't think it is criminal but you should still pay the fine if you are truly over.

Tim

[Houndog]

Tim,
Just being overloaded isn't a criminal offense in any way, and in fact unless the laws have changed since I retired, it doesn't even go against your license. Waaay back when I hauled Coal the maximum gross weight on a tractor trailer combination was 73,280 pounds. In Kentucky you could buy a regional overload permit allowing up to 80,000 pounds GROSS VEHICLE WEIGHT for mineral products, and Kentucky had a maximum fine of 537.50 for overloads no matter how much you were overloaded. EVERYONE hauling Coal took full advantage of the maximum fine and most truckers would load somewhere between 75 and 100 ton payloads every trip. We also had an "understanding" with the DOT that they would only issue 1 ticket per month to any coal hauler caught overweight. The fact of the matter is you either operated like that or the Coal companies simply wouldn't use you. Things are vastly different today as most open pit mines are long gone as is the maximum fine and most coal from deep mines now moves by conveyer belt. Sadly what was a booming area loaded with jobs now is mostly gone.

[dtknowles]

I was using criminal in a inappropriate manner. I dislike unethical behavior and consider any deliberate violation of the law unethical. That the Coal companies, the DOT, the Truckers were all in cahoots in the law breaking is deplorable. Fix the laws if they are bad. Getting into the habit of breaking the law is a slippery slope, you are on the wrong side of the line with no notion of were the limits should be. We are supposed to have the Rule of Law, you know a civilized country. We have too many laws but we need to follow and enforce the ones we have or get rid of them.

Tim

[Geezer in NH]

How about the company pays the fine? They will get the portable scales of their own ASAP.

No excuse to have to pay the fine by the driver so the company who pushes them to overload for the company's own gain.

Maybe the drivers need a loss of the CDL for a spell for repeats?

No Sympathy here.

[lightman]

The DOT and Highway Patrol watch the grain trucks around here. Its really hard to make any money if they don't fudge a little. Lots of log trucks have scales built in. The register is usually under the drivers seat and it weighs the front bunk and back bunk.

[shooter93]

Tim...I don't know how it is in other places but here the locals have a dot cop. EVERY single day they sit at an underpass and stop truck after truck. Once they have 3 or 4 backed up others get flagged through. Every truck stopped will have a violation. In fact a brand new truck...right off the factory floor with 3 miles on it they can find a violation. That is pure and simple revenue grabbing and I'm betting it happens a great deal more than people think. While there are some breaking the law I think a lot of overloads are very minimal and not intentional. A thunder shower can change the weight of a load of stone very fast. Pretty hard to insure against the weather.

[country gent]

I used to see truckes sitting before the scales and drivers busting snow and ice out from under them to make weight weather can make a big diffrence in what a truck weighs. Most sand pits around here charge by the load and no scales logging is the same a load and no scales when loaded but with experience a driver can guess pretty close by looks and other indicators. Same with farmer loading in the field. The grain haulers here hauling for elevators go over the scales before leaving.

[rancher1913]

we are forced to drive overweight by our company, drive or go find another job. we go out of our way to avoid the port, we are not criminals trying to skirt the law, we are just trying to feed our families and finding another job is not always easy to do. we got stopped for bypassing the port last week and had to play dumb when he asked our weights,our overload permit was for 160,000 and we are under that by a little but over by the bridge law on axles. our company says to move the trucks only at night when the port is closed. we have a pickup run interference for us but should that fail our plan should we encounter a portable set up is to pull over before and abandon the truck. its real easy to say "just follow the rules" but if you have a family depending on your income its not that easy. they need to hold the companies liable and not the drivers--then and only then will the rules be followed.

[starmac]

Jesus, driving a truck IS breaking the law, I don't care who you are, what your hauling, or where your hauling it.
I have scales on my truck, lust the back one is broken and I have to get parts shipped up from seattle.
Snow and ice will sometimes be as much as 5,000 pounds.
Depending on what your hauling driving a few miles through a rain can and will add as much as 5,000 pounds.
In many states, you are legal till you get to the first set of scales, just not past them. I have watched the dot sit and nail grain trucks at the elevator, because the lot they could park in to unload with a shovel was across the road from the scales, lovely guys.
The diesel cops can always give a trucker a ticket, and they are not shy about telling you that. I watched a Texas diesel cop that couldn't find anything wrong, borrow the drivers tire gauge and give him a ticket for one tire being down to 80 pounds, not even close to flat mind you.
I got two tickets for blowing out one tire in New Mexico, one from a state cop and one from a diesel cop. I did not drive on it either, when it blew I stopped and called a tire truck out. I told the dot that I really didn't appreciate getting one ticket, much less two for the same thing, he said no problem, he was planning on wording it different.

[Menner]

another case of Tim making a broad statement and injecting his sanctimonious (yes Tim I had to use spell check those big words don't fit my mouth very well) superior opinion into subjects that he knows very little about. Sometimes in the course of life, a Good man is driven to take a course that may not be by the letter of the law when laws become oppressive and obstructive the people effected have the right to try and change them, but in the case such as Starmac and other haulers are dealing with is a relatively small group being effected by a over reaching government with hard and fast rules trying to moderate a very fluid situation and more than likely laws written by people that have never driven a loaded truck in their lives. It all sounds Great take them to task put the governing body in front of a board of review or judge to defend their laws and have them changed. Well here is the fly in that ointment The cost of hiring lawyers and taking time off work (which most of these people can't afford to begin with) and the subsequent (managed that one on my own lol) backlash if the attempt fails or even if it is successful would be VERY expensive and likely accomplish nothing in their favor. so it is cheaper and a lot less hassle to work your A$$ off pay the fines, the state gets their cut they justify their jobs keeping the public safe from those terrible truck drivers that kill so many of us by the negligence and disregard of the rules setup by the government to protect us.
I don't know maybe I have a different view I am just an old Sussex county Delaware unedjumacated redneck oh and I don't drive a truck for a living I just pay attention and don't pass judgment looking down my nose at people trying to hammer out a living against the odds and I am a small business owner so I feel some of the pain in dealing with the government and we have battled some things here were we have to and it is really expensive and there is backlash even when you win. you end up on THE LIST
and being on the list makes it harder to do business
Tony

[Tackleberry41]

we are forced to drive overweight by our company, drive or go find another job. we go out of our way to avoid the port, we are not criminals trying to skirt the law, we are just trying to feed our families and finding another job is not always easy to do. we got stopped for bypassing the port last week and had to play dumb when he asked our weights,our overload permit was for 160,000 and we are under that by a little but over by the bridge law on axles. our company says to move the trucks only at night when the port is closed. we have a pickup run interference for us but should that fail our plan should we encounter a portable set up is to pull over before and abandon the truck. its real easy to say "just follow the rules" but if you have a family depending on your income its not that easy. they need to hold the companies liable and not the drivers--then and only then will the rules be followed.


This is a huge issue. I have known a few truckers, they all said its a really crappy job to be in. Everything is stacked against the driver. But seems to be like everything anymore, its always about the company making money. Your just this necessary evil they have to tolerate to make that money. The truck companies make you run over weight. We have these rules for a reason, all that weight just tears up the roads. I know they say well we pay extra taxes, so should be able to run that way. I remember living in KY and the coal companies had special exemptions to run way over weight, the truck companies claimed they could not make money unless they ran that way. No its just that everybody wants to pass the buck, it should simply cost more to haul it then if its unprofitable at normal load weight. Those coal trucks were dangerous, on those curvy back roads running fast, paid by the mile theres no incentive to slow down and be safe. Just as most of us get tired of being pelted by the stuff falling off trucks. Takes a couple moments to sweep the extra off the back, nope, dump it and go, screw the 4 wheelers unfortunate to be behind them. Just as the truckers complain about being stopped for unsecured loads. Yea its revenue for the state, but if everybody took a moment, made sure their loads were secure, not overweight, then there would be much less reason to get stopped.

I know the deck is stacked. Had a neighbor who resorted to driving a truck to pay the bills. They made lots of promises. But he spent a holiday weekend sitting at a truck stop. He would have had to pay the fuel to get home, they were not going to pay until they had a load back. 3 days doing nothing. The boss got his weekend so why is it an issue? Or the factory I worked at building those trucks they use at airports. The 18 wheeler would show up to get his load, oh their not actually ready. So he sat in the parking lot several hours not getting paid. I would never survive as a trucker, I show up and the load isnt ready, screw em then, drive away. If every trucker started doing that might have some changes in how things are done. Or the completely unrealistic runs they send people on, runs that are impossible unless you break the rules.

[Mal Paso]

Bad guys on both sides of the law. I'll have respect when cops use turn signals again.

Now I know where starmac gets his lol. lol

[Epd230]

You are working for the wrong company if they expect you to run heavy AND make you put the fine. Find another company, or pay the fine and be comfortable knowing that you deserve the punishment.

As a driver, you are the last safety system for our nations highways in regards to your truck, that is why the ticket is in your name and goes ago at your safety rating.

You are given 2000# grace weight that applies to axle, gross, and bridge loads to allow for the driver that does not have the benefit of loading on a scale. That driver should also hit the local scale and get a reading before heading on a long haul, or risk sitting on the side of the road trying to figure out how to legalize an overweight load.

[Epd230]

However, I am constantly amazed as to how few fatalities and accidents occur every year from trucks. Compare the number in relation to miles driven and I believe it will be one of the safer occupations out there.

It just happens to make good news with gruesome pictures when one screws up.

My hats off you you guys!

[C. Latch]

I generally drive the speed limit and haven't had a speeding ticket in a long, long time, but the notion that speeding, or driving overweight, is somehow 'unethical' has to be based on the assumption that it's ethical to force people to pay for expensive roads then force them to abide by arbitrary rules when using those roads.

And now that I live in coal country, I can say with a straight face that if I was in the mining business in any way whatsoever, I'd break every rule they could write if it kept my family fed.

Our government's treatment of the coal industry is criminal.

[dtknowles]

Go ahead and pic and choose the laws you want to follow. Just don't complain if gang bangers and drug dealers do the same thing, they are just trying to feed their families after all.

Tim

[C. Latch]

Go ahead and pic and choose the laws you want to follow. Just don't complain if gang bangers and drug dealers do the same thing, they are just trying to feed their families after all.

Tim


I have -0- complaint if drug dealers ignore the law. The laws they ignore are arbitrary, unconstitutional, and immoral.

Gangs and drug dealers pretty much wouldn't even exist if not for immoral and arbitrary laws that created black markets.

[dtknowles]

I have -0- complaint if drug dealers ignore the law. The laws they ignore are arbitrary, unconstitutional, and immoral.

Gangs and drug dealers pretty much wouldn't even exist if not for immoral and arbitrary laws that created black markets.

I agree and I disagree:

I agree "Gangs and drug dealers pretty much wouldn't even exist if not for immoral and arbitrary laws that created black markets"

I disagree "I have -0- complaint if drug dealers ignore the law."

This one is a mixed bag. "The laws they ignore are arbitrary, unconstitutional, and immoral." How is a law against murder "arbitrary, unconstitutional, and immoral." or theft or extortion or thuggery

Some of the laws are "arbitrary, unconstitutional, and immoral." and there are too many laws but you don't get to pick and choose. You have 4 choices, follow the law, break the law, protest the law with civil disobedience or use the system to change the law. In three of the four cases you are on good moral ground. If you choose to break the law you are a criminal.

Are we a Nation of the Rule of Law or are we a Nation of Cheaters and Scallywags. I fear we are the latter. That just makes us a gussied up Banana Republic.

Tim

[Tackleberry41]

What is arbitrary tends to be a matter of perspective. Those who support coal will call any rule on digging it up, hauling it, or burning it as 'arbitrary'. But then if you ask the people not making money off coal, they will tell you about overweight coal trucks barreling past their house all the time, destroying the roads and nearly running over their kids. Or the coal ash ponds that end up in the river, some say no biggie, they generally don't live anywhere near it so why would they care. I visited coal country in KY, tended to be pretty nasty from all the dust from the trucks. And I dated a girl whos brother ran a coal company, he could care less about the environmental effects, just how much he was gonna make. All those 'arbitrary rules' he had to deal with. You know like making sure the miners didn't die all the time.

Weight rules are there for a reason, 1st the roads, more weight means more damage. I know truckers pay taxes, but so do the rest of us. And if they want to run over weight and tear up the roads, then they should have no issue paying more in taxes to fix the roads. 2nd reason, is vehicles are generally designed for a weight range. A truck may be capable of hauling that much, but will they still stop as well, usual answer is no. And combined with some truck companies habit of using cheap tires or letting equipment go for a little longer only makes it worse.

I have known truckers they told me the garbage that goes on, saving a few bucks putting off needed maintenance or repairs. No its not the drivers fault, he just drives, but he will be the one held responsible. People say go work for somebody else, like that works. The trucking companies know there are few options, designed that way. You either do it their way, or find another career. It was the same when I worked on cars, they knew your threat to quit was hollow as going to another dealer didn't change anything except who signed your check. I saw recently they were going to shift to an electronic log book, a system that would eliminate the current one of having 2 sets of books. Of course the industry is dead set against it, the usual claim is 'arbitrary rules'. When the real reason is they will actually be held to those rules now with no way to get around them. If shipping prices need to go up, then shipping prices need to go up. But only if it will actually go to the drivers vs just more money for the boss, while still forcing employees to bend the rules.

I know some say '$@#!*&^ liberals' when you mention regulations. When I was a kid my dad just dumped the used oil from the car somewhere, few would say its a bad idea to recycle it vs just dumping it down the drain. Oh some will because its inconvenient or some 'arbitrary rule'. My uncles were all in the body business, they still complain to no end about the environmental rules. This would be the same uncles who are dying due to the damage breathing lead paint did to them, yet they think preventing a younger generation from dying are needless and 'arbitrary' rules. One uncle instead of paying to get rid of the stuff, just stores barrels full of a mix of all sorts of nasty stuff behind his house, with the bungs out so it will evaporate. Guess works fine for him since he will be dead, but the rest of might have issues with it. I know many are pushing to roll back alot of the rules we have, but might want to look at a place where they have no such rules. China, where NOBODY drinks tap water its so polluted. The air is so bad you seldom see the sun, and rivers turn funny colors. Yes good for business bottom line, but sucks for the rest of us.

[jonp]

Smart move would be don't overload.

Easy to say when your in the woods and more weight is more money

[jonp]

I agree and I disagree:

I agree "Gangs and drug dealers pretty much wouldn't even exist if not for immoral and arbitrary laws that created black markets"

I disagree "I have -0- complaint if drug dealers ignore the law."

This one is a mixed bag. "The laws they ignore are arbitrary, unconstitutional, and immoral." How is a law against murder "arbitrary, unconstitutional, and immoral." or theft or extortion or thuggery

Some of the laws are "arbitrary, unconstitutional, and immoral." and there are too many laws but you don't get to pick and choose. You have 4 choices, follow the law, break the law, protest the law with civil disobedience or use the system to change the law. In three of the four cases you are on good moral ground. If you choose to break the law you are a criminal.

Are we a Nation of the Rule of Law or are we a Nation of Cheaters and Scallywags. I fear we are the latter. That just makes us a gussied up Banana Republic.

Tim


He never said anything about murder, Tim. It seems to me he is taking a strict Libertarian view of The Constitution on this.

Back to the OP. Thanks for the pm offer, starmac. A question on the logs: do they make you unload the extra right there or do they write the fine and let you roll? In the lower 48 it goes both ways depending on how overweight you are, the DOT's mood and where you are. I got some potato's off a guy in Montana once like that. I pulled into a truckstop in the middle of nowhere and it seems he was overweight and they told him to get it off but didn't write him a ticket as long as he could make it legal. He was throwing 50lb bags out the back of his box to whoever wanted them. Word got around fast and pick-ups, cars and such were crowded around. At least they were not going to waste.

I pulled into an Arizona inbound scale on I8 in Yuma with a load of cement on a flatbed and was 1,000 lbs or so over on the rear end. No place between the customer in San Diego and AZ to weigh it and I thought I was ok but there it was. They told me to get it moved or a ticket as i wasn't over gross. I hauled 25 sacks of it from the back to the drives by hand even though I was 5 miles from where I was delivering but it scaled and they let me go.

"Snow and ice will sometimes be as much as 5,000 pounds."

You got that right and most places will give you an allowance for it as long as your not totally out of whack. I have crossed more than one scale and ended up out on the trailer shoveling snow off the roof and beating ice off the bottom with a hammer to make the weight. I carried a mason's hammer specifically for this in the winter.

The biggest problem with trucking is that the laws are supposed to be consistent but are enforced differently by different truck cops depending on the mood and jurisdiction. I've crossed one scale and no light then the next gave me one. I've gotten a ticket for being overweight and then no ticket as long as I "could make it legal". I got a warning ticket for defective equipment at the Barstow, CA scales because I had a cracked stake pocket on a flatbed even though I was not using it for anything and they couldn't decide if it was a violation or not but wrote the ticket "to be on the safe side". Most places it all came down to attitude and whether you said "yes, sir/ma'am" with a smile or if the cop had a fight with his wife that morning. I had one state cop write me an over hours ticket 1/2hr from my house because he was a ***** in attitude so I told him I could see why his wife divorced him. He looked at me and I said "yeah, I know your ex-wife, "joan". She doesn't think much of you either". Ticket. Had a DOT checkpoint set up pulling trucks in so I entered the rest area and the cop who came over happened to be a guy I knew. Said howdy, shot the bull about hunting season and he asked me if I'd just started my day and I said yup so he sent me on my way without checking anything. All a **** shoot.

[C. Latch]

What is arbitrary tends to be a matter of perspective.


Actually, no, it's not.


And with a proper, historical understanding of property rights, every single objection you raise in the rest of your post could be handled as property-rights issues.

Tearing up the road? Privatize the roads and let the owners work out a system to charge those who use them according to use.
Polluting the stream that doesn't belong to you? Seek a remedy in court. Make it cost more to pollute than it costs to dump safely.

See, many of your concerns are valid. It's just that we're so accustomed to government 'fixing' everything that we have forgotten that property rights exist, and can be used to keep the peace between parties with differing interests.

[William Yanda]

Last fall, loading potatoes in NY destined for a chipper in PA, that company policy was not to pay for 1 pound of potatoes over the legal limit. They did it out of fear of liability-or so I was told. For companies to demand that you break the law or lose your job....well, it does put the driver in a bind if he likes to eat.

[jonp]

"I don't know how it is in other places but here the locals have a dot cop."

Actually, quite a number of local forces have sent at least one cop to DOT School to be certified because it is a guaranteed revenue source. Most OTR companies will just pay a fine instead of fight it and the local cops know it. Writing the ticket is as good as money.

[Rockydog]

Years ago I managed a milk reload station. We unloaded single and double axle farm pick up trucks and loaded the milk onto semi tankers. Every pound went through a meter that was accurate to weight by less than +/-.25%. The same 4 tractors pulled the same 8 trailers day after day. 6 loads went daily. All 4 tractors were identical, all eight trailers were identical. There was a weigh station a mile and a half from the reload. We had to weigh 6 loads a day every day and went months with out an over weight. We'd fill them and park them outside with the yard dog. On one snow day the haulers were late for the second run because of bad roads and slow conditions. They hooked onto trailers that had some snow from sitting on the lot. DOT fined 3 of our trucks for being over weight. They KNEW these trucks were only over because of bad roads and chose to delay the drivers even further. Cleaning off a fluid trailer with no catwalks is a real treat. Just a bunch of horses rear ends.

[starmac]

To address a few things. First, in this state they do not make you unload on the spot, if you are under 125% of legal weight.
I do not even want to here about heavy loads tearing up roads or rules to prevent them from doing so. An empty spread tears up the road more than a loaded tandem anyday, yet legally you can haul more weight of you have a spread in every state.
Truckers whine, cry and complain about everything you can imagine, from sitting over the weekend or driving a truck they don't like, yet they took the job.
The real truth is trucking just AIN"T FOR SISSIES, period.
The real fact is every second of your day is documented (federally) and you are subjected to sometimes enormous fines for makeing a 15 minute mistake, don't even think about getting caught for fraud in your logbook.
Another fact is no driver can possibly be 100% compliant with the equipment, load, paperwork or himself, it just isn't possible, every dot will tell you this, and many make a point to let you know they can always find a way to get some of your or your companies money.
Another fact every warning ticket goes on the companies safety record, anyone can look up that record in a matter of minutes, and most shippers do.
Every warning ticket goes on the drivers record also, this follows the driver to the next company he works for record too, therefore EVERY company and insurance company runs your record before you even go take a drug test, much less take a test drive.
Any company that safety record percentage, big or small gets out of whack loses their dot numbers, period.
It is a rare company that encourages drivers to break the law, lots of drivers whine about haveing to over run their hours, in my experience it is usually because they spent too much time at the truckstop, many are for some reason addicted to them. I have run freight all over the country and always had plenty of time to deliver my load, the only ones that has ever told me to run straight through and break laws, even go as far as haveing to sign papers saying I would was the GOVERNMENT.
One member claims he has to run when the scales are closed, run back roads, whatever to skirt the law. I do not know for certain, but ave a feeling that he works for an oilfield transport company or something similar, where going by the laws are not humanly possible, this is by design, county and states love oil companies money. I could be 100% wrong and he is driving a wallmart truck.

[TXGunNut]

I have -0- complaint if drug dealers ignore the law. The laws they ignore are arbitrary, unconstitutional, and immoral.

Gangs and drug dealers pretty much wouldn't even exist if not for immoral and arbitrary laws that created black markets.


I disagree with but also understand your position. Anyone who's been on the front lines of the "war on drugs" as I have, will agree that we are not likely to win. I support taking marijuana and maybe other drugs out of the jurisdiction of federal LE. I don't want to decriminalize all drugs because I fear the message that will send to our young people.
OTOH this thread is about traffic enforcement. Most who criticize Starmac's actions haven't walked a single step in his shoes. I understand his position even though I have some DOT training and an extensive history of traffic enforcement. Like it or not it's a game of give & take in the truck driving world. It's a precarious balance of safety and revenue, on both sides of the law. Yes, overweight loads can damage roads and may exceed the truck's mechanical capabilities but more freight means more money and less expense. DOT guys know that writing every violation will put a driver off the road but if they write no tickets some drivers will try some really stupid stuff. An officer assigned to commercial truck enforcement is expected to write citations and bona-fide violations are easy enough to find, unless an officer is lazy or stupid he doesn't need to write questionable stuff.
Face it, our society needs truck drivers and DOT officers. Both sides are doing a job that needs doing, even though we may not agree with the outcome. Even truck drivers are thankful when DOT officers take an unsafe truck or driver off the road. They don't need the stigma of unsafe trucks & drivers and oldtimers have seen their fair share of the carnage they cause.

[MaryB]

He is hauling logs out of the forest. 2 logs can be the identical size but one may weight 30% more... there are no local scales to hit first!


You are working for the wrong company if they expect you to run heavy AND make you put the fine. Find another company, or pay the fine and be comfortable knowing that you deserve the punishment.

As a driver, you are the last safety system for our nations highways in regards to your truck, that is why the ticket is in your name and goes ago at your safety rating.

You are given 2000# grace weight that applies to axle, gross, and bridge loads to allow for the driver that does not have the benefit of loading on a scale. That driver should also hit the local scale and get a reading before heading on a long haul, or risk sitting on the side of the road trying to figure out how to legalize an overweight load.

[jonp]

Starmac: out of curiosity how accurate are the scales on your trailer? I've got them on my drives but I don't trust them. I've been hauling glass loads for a while so I'm not over by a long shot anyways

[starmac]

Wow ease up, have a drink or something, just don't let life get to you. For the record, I HOPE to never go to or through Chicago again, never have had what I would call a good day there.

I will say this, I drive for a living and have off and on, more on than off since the 70's, outlaw days are over and have been for some time. I have never HAD to drive anybodys truck or work anywhere I thought was unsafe. I also have paid more fines than anyone I personally know, but that was in the old days, traffic, and laws have changed, 2 decent speeding tickets now and a driver, any driver is done for a few months by law, longer as far as insurance companies are concerned.
The last ticket I got was 7 years ago driving a company truck, minor overload hauling gravel. I was actually under loaded by 3,000 pounds, but 2,ooo pounds over the tandems. I had been telling the boss I couldn't axle a load with the combo I was driving, but he insisted I could. When I got the ticket I took his truck back and told him he needed another driver.
This ticket, was because the logger loaded it too far back, so I wound up being tail heavy, it doesn't take much, the dot officer that ticketed me is a straight up guy doing his job, I was doing mine, and we both know it. The logger split the fine, so I was only out of pocket. He gets more out of load the more I haul, but I haul by the load, no extra pay for being heavy. Most log trucks do haul by the pound or board feet, but I will not because we are way light much more often than we are heavy, so if they want me to haul, I will be knowing exactly what I am getting paid.
As far as safety, road damage, legalities, I have several times been as much as 300,000 pounds, many times 200,000, and all the time 150,000 pounds, all perfectly legal and safe, as long as you have the right permits. Loads here move all the time that takes two trucks to move it.
Some folks would rather wear slacks and stay inside at work, heck, I would rather try and outwit the dot, it is what it is, if I didn't come out ahead, I would do something else.

[C. Latch]

I disagree with but also understand your position. Anyone who's been on the front lines of the "war on drugs" as I have, will agree that we are not likely to win.

You were never supposed to win. It was never about winning. It was about expanding the size and scope of government at all levels.


I don't want to decriminalize all drugs because I fear the message that will send to our young people.

Not nearly as much as I fear the message you send. Your message is that there is an 'our' young people. There is not. My children are mine. Yours are yours.

It is refreshing to hear someone say that they understand me even if they disagree. I'm thankful for that.....yet it's not enough. We can't have a free society and a drug war, of any scale, at the same time.

At some point you'll have to decide which one you want more.



Face it, our society needs truck drivers and DOT officers.


DOT exists to prevent 'tragedy of the commons'. Eliminate the 'commons' and you eliminate the tragedy. Privatize roads. Problem solved.

[Epd230]

Privatize roads. Problem solved.
[/COLOR]

How is that any different than government owned roads with laws regulating their use?

I'll tell you how. With the current system, there is consistency across the board. You can pick up a load and run across the country knowing you are legal.

Privatize the roads and run into Boss Hog who arbitrarily lowers the weight limit to 50#/axle and confiscates your truck/load until you pay his overweight fine?

That is no solution.

[Epd230]

He is hauling logs out of the forest. 2 logs can be the identical size but one may weight 30% more... there are no local scales to hit first!

Hence the grace weight.

[C. Latch]

How is that any different than government owned roads with laws regulating their use?

I'll tell you how. With the current system, there is consistency across the board. You can pick up a load and run across the country knowing you are legal.

Privatize the roads and run into Boss Hog who arbitrarily lowers the weight limit to 50#/axle and confiscates your truck/load until you pay his overweight fine?

That is no solution.


You don't understand markets.

If Boss Hogg tries to run his road that way, you buy the land next to him and build another road around it. He sees market forces at work and raises his limits. Now you have two good roads to run on.....

Free markets work. I'm not going to beat you up for failing to understand that, though, because most people in our nation have never been taught that, and have certainly never experienced it in the fullest sense.

[starmac]

JonP I have vulcan scales with four load cells. Two support the weight of the front bunks, two support the weight of the rear bunks. The complete load rests on the load cells, and they are suppose to be accurate to 50 pounds, but that would be sitting on a dead level surface. If fairly level, you can figure on them being accurate to two or three hundred pounds, loading on a steep hillside, which we do pretty regularly, you have to do some guessing, but can stay out of trouble, especially as Alaska allows you up to 500 pounds with a verbal warning, then up to 1000 with a written warning warning, they usually do not fine us till we are over 1000 pounds, and the scales when working are close enough to be able to talk to the loader on the cb ant tell him to turn the logs around as needed to get maximun weight on all axles.

[starmac]

Hence the grace weight.

Gross weight means exactly nothing except for an additional fine if over gross.
You can literally be 20,000 pounds under gross and still get a ticket.
Also your legal gross weight changes with your bridge, which can (on a log truck) change for every load.
I painted a mark on my reach so that I know at a glance when I can gross enough to cover the axle weights, but if hauling say 32 foot logs, that becomes a problem.
What Mary was referring too wa trying to estimate your weight in the woods, I have been at this game a while and can tell you, very seldom will you be right trying to estimate. You can sometimes be close IF all logs are the same length, but that seldom happens.

[starmac]

How is that any different than government owned roads with laws regulating their use?

I'll tell you how. With the current system, there is consistency across the board. You can pick up a load and run across the country knowing you are legal.

Privatize the roads and run into Boss Hog who arbitrarily lowers the weight limit to 50#/axle and confiscates your truck/load until you pay his overweight fine?

That is no solution.

I do not think private roads would be a good idea, but not sure where you come up with the consistency across the country thinking.
There is as much as 10,000 pounds difference in the weight you can have on a set of tandems between the states.
You can not even have a trailer built that is legal in all 50 states to haul the maximun gross weight. Most open trailers running around the country are not even legal to be pulled on California roads.
Most trailers are not legal in Georgia.
The only consistency now, is that the federal govt requires every state to allow 53' foot trailers in every state, with any length tractor. However it doesn't specify where the axles have to be located so the states play with that.
Most modern trailers are 102 wide, however if an officer wants to get technical and enforce the law, (rare) they are only legal for a distance of 5 miles from the interstate.

[leeggen]

Starmac I just never realized how being a couple logs over weight would cause such a ruckus on a web sight. My youngest drives truck but he is lucky he hauls mattreses for a company here in town. Thats like hauling syrofoam just not posible to go over weight. Keep trucking and be safe.
CD

[Guardian]

I was using criminal in a inappropriate manner. I dislike unethical behavior and consider any deliberate violation of the law unethical. That the Coal companies, the DOT, the Truckers were all in cahoots in the law breaking is deplorable. Fix the laws if they are bad. Getting into the habit of breaking the law is a slippery slope, you are on the wrong side of the line with no notion of were the limits should be. We are supposed to have the Rule of Law, you know a civilized country. We have too many laws but we need to follow and enforce the ones we have or get rid of them.

Tim

I'm getting a little off track here, but have to ask, if the law is immoral, should it be followed?

If something is wrong for an individual to do, is it right if done by the collective? Example, could I, as an individual, hold starmac at gunpoint (dramatic, but effectively what was done, the end result if he didn't stop) and fine him for being overloaded? I'm pretty sure we'd all agree that would be classified as aggravated assault and theft. Is it not the same when done by the collective?

Let's not intertwine ethics/morals with law, the government certainly doesn't.

Starmac, sux to get fined for trying to make a living. Lowboy driver I used to work with sling-shotted the scales all the time and rarely got ticketed. Some folks just seem to have better luck, or a knack for talking their way out of a jam.

[Epd230]

Starmac,

I am referring to the laws governing the interstate system. This is the 80k gross/20k axle/32k tandem and 53' box rules.

Every state is different for their local roads and vary greatly from state to state.

[dtknowles]

I'm getting a little off track here, but have to ask, if the law is immoral, should it be followed?

If something is wrong for an individual to do, is it right if done by the collective? Example, could I, as an individual, hold starmac at gunpoint (dramatic, but effectively what was done, the end result if he didn't stop) and fine him for being overloaded? I'm pretty sure we'd all agree that would be classified as aggravated assault and theft. Is it not the same when done by the collective?

Let's not intertwine ethics/morals with law, the government certainly doesn't.

Starmac, sux to get fined for trying to make a living. Lowboy driver I used to work with sling-shotted the scales all the time and rarely got ticketed. Some folks just seem to have better luck, or a knack for talking their way out of a jam.

If you consider a Law Immoral then, no you should not follow it, you should break in a public, non-violent manner in protest of the law and force the Government to Try you in a Public Court, hopefully you can do this as part of a group, strength of numbers. This is called civil disobedience and is one of the moral ways of breaking the law. You must submit non-violently to your punishment.

I disagree that Starmac was held a gunpoint, maybe the officer (or others) would have pulled a gun if he refused to stop or if he was violent in resisting the ticket. If by collective you mean Fed, State and local governments, yes, they have authority that individuals do not have. I am a Libertarian and would like to see their authority diminished, laws removed from the books to the point that some would say that we were on a slope toward anarchy but if we have these laws and they are not enforced we have a worse moral challenge if there is selective enforcement then we have a criminal criminal justice system, who gets a pass and who gets the shaft. Prosecutorial discretion makes the prosecutor the judge and that is wrong. We either attempt to bring all violators to justice or we repeal or fix the law since we think that it is ok for some to break it. Not worth trying to catch all the violators then we should not try to catch any.

Tim

[Guardian]

If you consider a Law Immoral then, no you should not follow it, you should break in a public, non-violent manner in protest of the law and force the Government to Try you in a Public Court, hopefully you can do this as part of a group, strength of numbers. This is called civil disobedience and is one of the moral ways of breaking the law. You must submit non-violently to your punishment.

I disagree that Starmac was held a gunpoint, maybe the officer (or others) would have pulled a gun if he refused to stop or if he was violent in resisting the ticket. If by collective you mean Fed, State and local governments, yes, they have authority that individuals do not have. I am a Libertarian and would like to see their authority diminished, laws removed from the books to the point that some would say that we were on a slope toward anarchy but if we have these laws and they are not enforced we have a worse moral challenge if there is selective enforcement then we have a criminal criminal justice system, who gets a pass and who gets the shaft. Prosecutorial discretion makes the prosecutor the judge and that is wrong. We either attempt to bring all violators to justice or we repeal or fix the law since we think that it is ok for some to break it. Not worth trying to catch all the violators then we should not try to catch any.

Tim

If you are a Libertarian then you should understand that there is no such thing as "authority." If we believe that government derives its just powers from consent of the governed, it is also logical that (1) there are unjust powers and (2) nothing can be granted to the government which can't be performed by the individual. Do you equate the government to God? Is that where the authority comes from? I have no authority over anyone but myself. Thus, I can't convey authority over anyone else to the government, and I don't convey authority of myself.

Yes, we have a corrupt justice system, which is what pretty much negates the argument in your first paragraph.

We are held at gunpoint, the question is merely whether we see the gun or not. We may have convinced ourselves that we pull over for law enforcement out of politeness, but the fact is we know the end game and pulling over is better than the alternative. This is coercion. I have no right to coercion, so again, how do I pass it to the collective? The collective cannot be more than the sum of the individuals.

Further, we've confused "law" with "preferences." Natural Law exists without definition by man. The gov't prefers starmac stay below a specific weight distributed in a specific manner. The fact that he's over the specified weight doesn't result in a cataclysmic event. In fact, as long as you pay the specified amount for the permit, they'll let you haul pretty much anything.

"Rule" was supposed to go away with the separation from the King of England. Unfortunately, our founding fathers didn't see that "limited government" is an oxymoron. Our current state of affairs, I believe, is evidence enough; though I understand many are still confounded by the illusion of control.

[starmac]

Starmac,

I am referring to the laws governing the interstate system. This is the 80k gross/20k axle/32k tandem and 53' box rules.

Every state is different for their local roads and vary greatly from state to state.

Close, but uit still varies. Most states allow 20 thousand per axle on a spread or single axle, but 34 not 32 on a tandem, But for example Florida allows 44,000, colorado 36,000, new mexico allows 86,000 gross if you are pulling a spread. Then this all depends on the bridge, most states go by 80,000 maximun, but if you can't bridge it you go back to the old gross of 73,280.
Federal law does require every state to allow 53 foot trailers, but individual states get to decide the length between pin and axles, such as Cali, center of pin to center of rear most axle. Most boxes can slide up to meet this, however if they are hauling anything heavy (close to gross weight) the last 8 foot of the trailer has to basically be empty to axle out, Georgia has a similar law, but I'm thinking it is measured to the center of rear group. I know I used to pull a spread axle dryvan to florida that was illegal. I bought a california legal flat bed and stepdeck once, huge mistake, as my 48 foot trailers were basically reduced to 45 footers when hauling anything with any weight.

[dtknowles]

If you are a Libertarian then you should understand that there is no such thing as "authority." If we believe that government derives its just powers from consent of the governed, it is also logical that (1) there are unjust powers and (2) nothing can be granted to the government which can't be performed by the individual. Do you equate the government to God? Is that where the authority comes from? I have no authority over anyone but myself. Thus, I can't convey authority over anyone else to the government, and I don't convey authority of myself.

Yes, we have a corrupt justice system, which is what pretty much negates the argument in your first paragraph.

We are held at gunpoint, the question is merely whether we see the gun or not. We may have convinced ourselves that we pull over for law enforcement out of politeness, but the fact is we know the end game and pulling over is better than the alternative. This is coercion. I have no right to coercion, so again, how do I pass it to the collective? The collective cannot be more than the sum of the individuals.

Further, we've confused "law" with "preferences." Natural Law exists without definition by man. The gov't prefers starmac stay below a specific weight distributed in a specific manner. The fact that he's over the specified weight doesn't result in a cataclysmic event. In fact, as long as you pay the specified amount for the permit, they'll let you haul pretty much anything.

"Rule" was supposed to go away with the separation from the King of England. Unfortunately, our founding fathers didn't see that "limited government" is an oxymoron. Our current state of affairs, I believe, is evidence enough; though I understand many are still confounded by the illusion of control.

I don't consider what you described is a Libertarian society it appears more of an Anarchistic society. Libertarian is not well defined, it depends on the purveyor.

Your version and mine don't jive. Limited Government is not an oxymoron, what we have is more limited than some others but would be better it is was even less powerful. I don't advocate eliminating it.

Tim

[Guardian]

I don't consider what you described is a Libertarian society it appears more of an Anarchistic society. Libertarian is not well defined, it depends on the purveyor.

Your version and mine don't jive. Limited Government is not an oxymoron, what we have is more limited than some others but would be better it is was even less powerful. I don't advocate eliminating it.

Tim

Tim, Anarchy is such a dirty word, it inspires such fear. You mistake my intent. I do not desire anarchy. I desire self government.

Liberty is the key component of Libertarianism.

I'll leave you with this to ponder. If "limited government" is not an oxymoron, how did it get so big? It's been "limited" since inception, right?

[C. Latch]

Tim, Anarchy is such a dirty word, it inspires such fear. You mistake my intent. I do not desire anarchy. I desire self government.

Anarchy isn't supposed to be a dirty word but we've been trained by those who desire to control everything to fear anarchy.

I'm not an anarchist, strictly speaking, but anarchy isn't necessarily a bad thing and certainly isn't what the control freaks tell us it is.

[southpaw]

Anarchy isn't supposed to be a dirty word but we've been trained by those who desire to control everything to fear anarchy.

I'm not an anarchist, strictly speaking, but anarchy isn't necessarily a bad thing and certainly isn't what the control freaks tell us it is.

It would seem that there are some people whom need to have things spelled out for them so they can behave with others.

Jerry Jr.

[dtknowles]

Tim, Anarchy is such a dirty word, it inspires such fear. You mistake my intent. I do not desire anarchy. I desire self government.

Liberty is the key component of Libertarianism.

I'll leave you with this to ponder. If "limited government" is not an oxymoron, how did it get so big? It's been "limited" since inception, right?

Limited government, small government, big government, State Government, Federal Government, Local Government. Anarchy can not be maintained. There will be some limits on Liberty. There will be some form of Government even if it is called a Church or a Parish or a Dictator or a Gang Leader.

Getting Governance right is very hard. I believe that our Federal Government has grown too big and needs to be shrunk. One way would be to limit the amount of money it can borrow.

What do you mean when you say "I desire self government."?

Look at History, go back to the Civil War and start there for the answer to "If "limited government" is not an oxymoron, how did it get so big?"

Until we have an Authoritarian Government that rules the entire human population then we have Limited Government. Actually Limited Government is a useless term, only God is without limits.

Tim

[DoubleAdobe]

Here is an over-hours driver, but his attorney said he was just trying to make a living and following dispatcher's orders.
http://www.dailyherald.com/article/20160122/news/160129497/

[Guardian]

Limited government, small government, big government, State Government, Federal Government, Local Government. Anarchy can not be maintained. There will be some limits on Liberty. There will be some form of Government even if it is called a Church or a Parish or a Dictator or a Gang Leader.

Getting Governance right is very hard. I believe that our Federal Government has grown too big and needs to be shrunk. One way would be to limit the amount of money it can borrow.

It is highly likely there will always be some sort of institutional government, unfortunately. The reason? Abdication of responsibility is easier.


What do you mean when you say "I desire self government."?

Exactly as it sounds, government of one's self. It would take pages to explain, but I acknowledge that there are some things I cannot do to others, some self imposed limits to ultimate freedom, in order to coexist. I have a right to my own life and the fruits of my labor. The correlation is that others have the right to their lives and fruits of their labors. That takes murder and theft out right off the top.


Look at History, go back to the Civil War and start there for the answer to "If "limited government" is not an oxymoron, how did it get so big?"

Until we have an Authoritarian Government that rules the entire human population then we have Limited Government. Actually Limited Government is a useless term, only God is without limits.

Tim

You miss the point. It was touted as a 'limited government" from the beginning. If it were truly limited, it would have been impossible to reach the point we are now at. Yes, there are specific points within the last 240 years that can be identified as moments when the government expanded, but if limited government were possible, these events would never have occurred.

There are men in all ages who mean to govern well, but they mean to govern. They promise to be good masters, but they mean to be masters. — Daniel Webster

[dtknowles]

It is highly likely there will always be some sort of institutional government, unfortunately. The reason? Abdication of responsibility is easier.



Exactly as it sounds, government of one's self. It would take pages to explain, but I acknowledge that there are some things I cannot do to others, some self imposed limits to ultimate freedom, in order to coexist. I have a right to my own life and the fruits of my labor. The correlation is that others have the right to their lives and fruits of their labors. That takes murder and theft out right off the top.



You miss the point. It was touted as a 'limited government" from the beginning. If it were truly limited, it would have been impossible to reach the point we are now at. Yes, there are specific points within the last 240 years that can be identified as moments when the government expanded, but if limited government were possible, these events would never have occurred.

There are men in all ages who mean to govern well, but they mean to govern. They promise to be good masters, but they mean to be masters. — Daniel Webster

While you acknowledged that there will always be some government, I think you would like it to all go away. Who would keep us from being overrun by foreign powers that would put a new government in place?

Practically speaking (giving up some utopian concepts) I think the best thing would be to try and shrink the size and power of the existing Federal Government. While we don't have a Government without limits, the limits are not currently enough and more limits need to be put in place and one would be to limit the amount of money the Government can borrow and not let the Government raise that limit. You have to start somewhere and I am not ready to go back to square one.

Tim

[Guardian]

You'll recall the Japanese didn't invade mainland America because they suspected "there would be a rifle behind every blade of grass."

The U.S. gov't has instigated more wars than it's stopped.

[C. Latch]

The U.S. gov't has instigated more wars than it's stopped.

Amen.

[dtknowles]

You'll recall the Japanese didn't invade mainland America because they suspected "there would be a rifle behind every blade of grass."

The U.S. gov't has instigated more wars than it's stopped.

Was one mans opinion at the time, there were more reasons than that and do you think that would be as big a deterrent today. Exactly who would repel a Russian attack on NY harbor, If we dissolve the government do you expect the Military to remain and who would provide funding. Would you think that some group funding the new Militia would expect to exact some benefit.

Exactly what wars do you consider the U.S. instigated. I can only think of one, the second Iraq War. The rest were initiated by someone else. I guess we could add the Revolutionary War but that might not count for a couple reasons. So I think that the U.S. has ended more wars than we started. Also this is irrelevant to the point under discussion.

Tim

[C. Latch]

Exactly what wars do you consider the U.S. instigated.

Civil War, the Pacific Theater of WWII, Korea, Vietnam, the Khmer Rogue genocide in Cambodia, Kuwait, Iraq, Afghanistan....


Every one of those lays rightly at the feet of the good old US of A.

Lincoln could have avoided the Civil War. Our sanctions against Japan led to Pearl Harbor. Our leaders knew Pearl Harbor was coming and didn't warn the fleet. We could have easily stayed out of Korea and Vietnam, and our bombing forays into Cambodia fueled support for Pol Pot and his murderous regime.

Kuwait and Iraq could have been avoided completely, as could have Afghanistan, and, had we never went into Iraq and poked our nose where it didn't belong, there might still be a Christian population in Iraq, and ISIS simply would not exist.

There's more, of course, but that's just the few I can think of off the top of my head.

Pity they don't teach this stuff in schools.

[dtknowles]

Civil War, the Pacific Theater of WWII, Korea, Vietnam, the Khmer Rogue genocide in Cambodia, Kuwait, Iraq, Afghanistan....


Every one of those lays rightly at the feet of the good old US of A.

Lincoln could have avoided the Civil War. Our sanctions against Japan led to Pearl Harbor. Our leaders knew Pearl Harbor was coming and didn't warn the fleet. We could have easily stayed out of Korea and Vietnam, and our bombing forays into Cambodia fueled support for Pol Pot and his murderous regime.

Kuwait and Iraq could have been avoided completely, as could have Afghanistan, and, had we never went into Iraq and poked our nose where it didn't belong, there might still be a Christian population in Iraq, and ISIS simply would not exist.

There's more, of course, but that's just the few I can think of off the top of my head.

Pity they don't teach this stuff in schools.

I will say that I disagree with you assessment but it is a debate that would continue for days and like I said it irrelevant to the current discussion.

Tim

[C. Latch]

I will say that I disagree with you assessment but it is a debate that would continue for days and like I said it irrelevant to the current discussion.

Tim

That's fair enough, but it does go to show that when you said:

Who would keep us from being overrun by foreign powers that would put a new government in place?

There's more to the issue than just your question. Sure, government helps defend us. But we might not need so much 'defending' if we didn't pick fights with the rest of the world.

I'm not an anarchist. I have nothing against AnCaps, but honestly I'm the lazy sort who would stop worrying about politics if we ever got down to the point of real Minarchism. But, yeah, the point can be made quite strongly that, while a strong national defense sounds nice (and is!), ours does a lot more offense than it does defense.

[StolzerandSons]

DT,

So if you believe in the rule of law and you believe that all we have to do is enforce the current laws and you don't believe in breaking any of the rules(as you've stated in posts in this thread) then you will be turning yourself in to the FBI in the morning for being in constructive possession of terroristic materials?

[Guardian]

Thanks, C.Latch. Those were exactly the ones on my mind when the reference was made.

As to defense of the nation, there's nothing saying we can't band together and defend the nation. The militia did it in the 1700s. The usual rebuttal to that is that there weren't nuclear weapons, aircraft, etc. available during that time period. Yeah, so? Rifles were cutting edge technology at the time, and we had them. It may require a different strategy, but it is possible.

I believe such would lead to very different decisions. Sending someone else off to war on your behalf is a very different thing than going yourself. You then have to ask yourself if you really believe in the cause.

[C. Latch]

Sending someone else off to war on your behalf is a very different thing than going yourself. You then have to ask yourself if you really believe in the cause.

For sure.

[DoubleAdobe]

Talk about some serious thread drift, I thought we were talking about trucks and the DOT, and as a matter of fact why isn't this in the Pit?

[starmac]

I have done paid the fine, so I am thinking the WORLDS problems are over. lol

[DoubleAdobe]

I have done paid the fine, so I am thinking the WORLDS problems are over. lol
I hear ya brother, go and sin no more, haha.

[dtknowles]

DT,

So if you believe in the rule of law and you believe that all we have to do is enforce the current laws and you don't believe in breaking any of the rules(as you've stated in posts in this thread) then you will be turning yourself in to the FBI in the morning for being in constructive possession of terroristic materials?

I don't believe that I have anything illegal and I don't even know how to turn myself in to the FBI. If you have a copy of a statute that you think I might be violating, I will give it a look and get legal advice as to how I might be compliant. I believe in following the law, not breaking it and turning myself in. If I think the law is unjust I might contact someone like the NRA and then with them and with the cameras rolling have myself arrested but I don't know what law you are talking about with the Terroristic Materials Charge. All the different possibly hazardous materials I have are related to a hobby activity that clearly has no intent to cause Terror. I have Rocket Motors, flammable Propellants, Pressure vessels, remotely piloted vehicles, GPS control systems, remote control and telemetry systems including radio linked video and a well documented history of the nonviolent participation in the relevant hobbies and have had my background investigated and at one time had a Federal Security Clearance. Reasonable suspicion of evil intent is probably a necessary prerequisite for the Terrorism Materials Charge but again I have not read the law you might be talking about. A farmer can have explosives if he has a probable reasonable use for them and someone who demolishes building for a living can have a great deal of explosives and the knowledge of how to do great harm with them but his demonstrated intent and proper licenses mean that a Charge for Terroristic Materials is out of bounds.

Oh, I just registered as a Drone Pilot with the FAA my UAS number is FA3EC7ELEE. I provided public comments against that new regulation. I hate the current state of overregulation and too many laws, we need to get some action against Federal Overreach but I do follow the law and work very hard to not intentional violate the law. Am I perfect, no, and with all the laws it is very hard to even be mostly compliant. It is hard to even know where to look to find the relevant law for some things.

I was talking in early posts about the deliberate willful violation of the law for personal gain and how I find that to be wrong. I believe that behavior should be punished severely but incidental not deliberate violations should get a warning or minor punishment.

If some how I fly my drone above 400 ft. altitude and get caught, I hope they don't hit me with the maximum (10 years and $25,000) but it would be their prerogative so I will be careful. Just like if I am modifying a firearm, I will be careful because I don't want to create an AOW without a liceince the penalties are strangely less than the out of bounds drone flight but still severe.

Tim

[dtknowles]

.............................. Sure, government helps defend us. But we might not need so much 'defending' if we didn't pick fights with the rest of the world.

I'm not an anarchist. I have nothing against AnCaps, but honestly I'm the lazy sort who would stop worrying about politics if we ever got down to the point of real Minarchism. But, yeah, the point can be made quite strongly that, while a strong national defense sounds nice (and is!), ours does a lot more offense than it does defense.

Yes, we can be quite Offensive and ask for trouble more so now than in the past. Much of the rest of the world wants what we have and without some defense they would just come and take it, they would be stumbling over each other to carve off pieces of the U.S. How long do you think it would take Russia to take back Alaska and much of western Canada if we did not defend it.

I will look up Minarchism and get back to you on that.

Tim

[dtknowles]

......I'm not an anarchist. I have nothing against AnCaps, but honestly I'm the lazy sort who would stop worrying about politics if we ever got down to the point of real Minarchism......

Minarchism, seems OK to me but of course the devil is in the details and it leaves the question of how we get there, the liberals would fight to the death to stop that as it would be the end of the Great Society and the New Deal.

Tim

[C. Latch]

Minarchism, seems OK to me but of course the devil is in the details and it leaves the question of how we get there, the liberals would fight to the death to stop that as it would be the end of the Great Society and the New Deal.

Tim


It took us 200 years to get from something that resembled minarchism to something that resembles socialism.

I'm not sure there's a way back, but if there is, it won't be short or easy. You're absolutely right that the New Deal, and FDR (then LBJ) made a beachead against freedom and it'll be hard to take back.

It can be done, but first we have to convince people that much of what they love now isn't 'freedom'. We can't have freedom and have drug wars, terror wars, social security, medicare, and all of the big-government programs that my parents' and grandparents' generations swallowed hook, line and sinker.

[bearcove]

Wow! Ya'll should stay in the PIT

Words are weapons sharper than knives - INXS

The pen is mightier than the sword - Edward Bulwer-Lytton

The tongue is mightier than the blade - Euripides

I think they were speaking of quality, not quantity

[jonp]

What happened to the DOT? :hijack:

[jonp]

Starmac,

I am referring to the laws governing the interstate system. This is the 80k gross/20k axle/32k tandem and 53' box rules.

Every state is different for their local roads and vary greatly from state to state.

Take a look at the front of your Rand McNaly Trucker Atlas. Every state is different on the axle weights, too.

[dtknowles]

Wow! Ya'll should stay in the PIT

Words are weapons sharper than knives - INXS

The pen is mightier than the sword - Edward Bulwer-Lytton

The tongue is mightier than the blade - Euripides

I think they were speaking of quality, not quantity

Hey, nice talking to you too. What do you think about willful law breakers?

Tim

[dtknowles]

What happened to the DOT? :hijack:

I as very happy to see the State Police Weight Enforcement Suburbans after Katrina when I had to drive over the Twin Spans across Lake Pontchartrain with all the temporary steel grating sections. They closed the I-10 to inspect that work twice a week until they could complete the new bridge and demolish the old bridge. There are many bridges that can't stand the effects of overweight trucks and criminals that don't care. The alternate bridge to the Twin Spans that crosses the lake for highway 11 even today after an upgrade still has special weight restrictions. The laws are not completely arbitrary. If DOT did not issue tickets do you think anyone would follow the law.

Tim

[starmac]

But DT, we got a pass after Katrina while they were doing ALL that work, as long as we were hauling for the govt, or feme we they gave us a permit that went in the windshield, with it we didn't have to abide by WEIGHT laws or hours of service either, life was great. Belive me, if those temporary grates were in any danger from an overloaded truck, they would not have let you ride a bicycle across.
Drive up the alcan sometimes, they have been replacing the tempory steel grated bridges, since I started running it, but still have a few to go. There has been untold amount of freight, including heavier than heavy oilfield and heavy equipment hauled up the alcan since ww11, on those tempory bridges, that they are just now replacing.
I was overloaded enough today to get a ticket (found out when I got to town and weighed) but the dot had a truck on the scales harrassing him, so I got to skate. YEEHAW.
Oh yea for the record, I actually make less money when I am overweight, I get paid the same but it takes more fuel to haul it.

[StolzerandSons]

DT,

Just the things I've seen you post about on here puts you in willful violation of the Homeland Security Act and the Anti-Terrorism Act.

I wouldn't worry about it to much since nearly everyone is in violation of either homeland security and/or terrorism laws but the rest of us aren't pretening to be righteous...let us know when you get all the proper licensing/permits to get squared away with the Anti-terrorism Act for the things you are in constructive possesssion of.

The truth is there are so many conflicting laws at all levels(Fed, State and Local) that everyone is in violation of many, many laws at all times, just most(you included) haven't done anything that would cause them to be charged...YET.

[starmac]

I will say if I wake up in the morning, it is a fact I will break at least one law, undoubtedly more.

[dtknowles]

DT,

Just the things I've seen you post about on here puts you in willful violation of the Homeland Security Act and the Anti-Terrorism Act.

I wouldn't worry about it to much since nearly everyone is in violation of either homeland security and/or terrorism laws but the rest of us aren't pretening to be righteous...let us know when you get all the proper licensing/permits to get squared away with the Anti-terrorism Act for the things you are in constructive possesssion of.

The truth is there are so many conflicting laws at all levels(Fed, State and Local) that everyone is in violation of many, many laws at all times, just most(you included) haven't done anything that would cause them to be charged...YET.

Repost one post of mine that you think is a willful violation of the Homeland Security Act and the Anti-Terrorism Act. I don't think you comment can stand the light of day. Your misapprehension relates to willful and intent. I think I have plenty of documentation and licenses to demonstrate my intents are clearly recreational and not subversive, no willful violation just the will to have fun and educate my children in technology. I have made good faith efforts to be compliant with the laws for recreational use and belong to organizations that provide proper safety rules and insurance to cover accidents. I don't think you understand the law.

Tim

P.S. I have build 10" diameter rocket motors and test fired them at Stennis Space Center. It is not like I am doing anything covert. I am about to resubmit my Questionnaire for Non-Sensitive Positions so that I will have access to the Controlled Areas of the Michoud Assembly Facility. My previous clearance expired during the time when the area was uncontrolled. Google me you will not find any subversive stuff. The most subversive things I post have been right here and it is all about shrinking the Federal Government by balancing the budget and keep a tighter limit on Debt.

[dtknowles]

DT,
............................. haven't done anything that would cause them to be charged...YET.

Oh, by the way, just being charged does not make one guilty. Nobody it likely to charge me with a crime and even less likely to prove me guilty. It does not mean I am innocent but you are making unfounded accusations. The burden of proof is on the accuser.

Yes, we have to many and conflicting laws but I can navigate them as can most people. Many should be repealed, maybe someday.

Tim

[dtknowles]

I will say if I wake up in the morning, it is a fact I will break at least one law, undoubtedly more.

I am not looking for a confession but I don't think I broke any yet today. I might have failed to use my turn signal but I doubt it and it would not have been willful. I do have my cell phone here and it has a camera but I think they fixed to rule so I don't need a camera permit, I just can't take pictures and that is not really a law, just a rule. I don't think it would be a violation of the law unless I took the wrong picture.

Do you think that with only a little effort you could go a whole day without breaking any laws?

Tim

[bearcove]

Hey, nice talking to you too. What do you think about willful law breakers?

Tim

I like myself most days, especially when I don't get caught!

[dtknowles]

I like myself most days, especially when I don't get caught!

This smells like bait.

Tim

[bearcove]

NO, I'm a good guy, but realize that ANYONE that thinks they obey ALL the statutes in place is deceiving themselves.

I Speed a bit, I don't signal if no one needs to know, but we are in general the good guys even if we look a bit BAD.

Don't worry about the little stuff, when you need too worry you'll know.

[bearcove]

"We don't worry about the things we can fix, because we will fix them. We don't worry about the things we can't because it doesn't matter"

From Tibet, and they don't drive much but that's the general idea. Same thing works for our convoluted legal system, just harder to fix.

[starmac]

By golly the scales was open today and my old log truck must have been listening to Tim and refused to go there, instead it just flopped over on it's side and gave a death kick. I just left her in the hills and caught a ride out. lol

[bearcove]

Just think of all the money you saved!

[rancher1913]

sorry to hear that starmac but I've almost been there a time or two.

[starmac]

Just think of all the money you saved!

No doubt, I tried jumpimg for joy when I climbed out of her, but the snow was too deep to jump. lol