LIthgow #1 MK III

[docone31]

I do not join too many forums. I have been kinda absorbing from this one. I am saturated with information from here.
Bravo.
I have a 1942 Lithgow #1 MK III. .303 British. I just rebarreled it. I found an heavy barrel for a #1 and it just went in like clockwork.
It shoots beautifully. Probably it is one of the finest pieces in my collection. I refinished and bedded the stocks, both fore and butt. I jeweled the bolt. Target crowned the muzzle. I found an original cheek piece! Also an original scope mount.
Bragging done. Not a good way to start with people with obvious expertise, however a picture is worth a thousand words.
Now, being a complete novice with paper patching, and having read Mathews book, all the information I could find on paper patching, how do I paper patch this beauty?
It is true to bore spec. The barrel was unfired and I am just now breaking it in. It prints at 100yds, about 4". It is not even broken in so I do not expect even that much.
I have Lee C312-185-1R mold. It grains out at an even 180gns. It measures .312 with my mix. Essentially, I use a mix with 90% wheelweight, and 10% tin/ silver/aluminum. I am a jeweler, and have a large quantity of crap jewelery on hand. People drop it off in case I want some stones from it. I do not want to hurt their feelings so I put it in a can.
It mixes real well with wheelweight/tin. When I pour the mold, no wrinkles, bubbles, and I drop quench after each pour.
I believe I know the sizes, but,
What do I size the original cast down to?
If the bore is .311, and the mold is .313, with two wraps of onion skin, or green computer paper, where do I start?
I use Lee sizer dies. Inexpensive, they work, and leave no marks.
I am having an issue with pushing a paper jacket through a die. Obviously I have no experience with paper jackets. I am sure it is self explanatory.
Wet the paper, wrap it, twist the bottom, let it dry, then size after cutting off the tail.
As an aside, can .243, and 25-06 be paper patched? I mean ammo is getting pricey.
I use 4895 surplus powder. I really like it. Clean, consistant dumps, easy to measure. Consistant groups. A good medium powder. In my opinion, much cleaner than 3031 which was my old standby.
I am looking forward to responses. I have a feeling I am going to learn a great deal. I am a target shooter. Purely either single shot, or bolt. I had preferred to build Mausers, but this SMLE just stands out. I left on the cartouches, marks, and the armourers marks. It looks great. 100 coats of Gillespe Tung Oil, rubbed inbetween.
Now to get her to shoot paper patches.
Thanks
Doc

[longbow]

I am not a paper patching expert by any means but have done a little for .44 mag rifle, .308 Winchester and .303 British in a No. 5.

The Lyman Cast Bullet Handbook has some information on paper patching and recommends sizing to .301 for .30 cal. (Lyman moulds 301618 & 301620) then patching with 2 wraps of 0.0033" paper with 25% cotton fiber. After patching and drying, size to 0.308".

I made a mould that cast at 0.301" then patched to suit the 0.303" feeling that using a thicker paper would work and that would also allow me to use the same bullet in .308 as well as .303 - wrong! At least it didn't work for me. The .308 was happy but the .303 was not - groups were in the 6" range at 50 yards.

In the end I grooved the bullet (annular grooves kinda like straight knurling) which brought diameter up to 0.303" (land diameter for my .303) and patched to 0.313". That produced pretty respectable accuracy of about 1 1/2" at 50 yards for the initial testing, a vast improvement.

Now to be honest I am not sure whether the increase in diameter, the addition of grooves to grip paper better or the combination of increased diameter, thinner paper and grooves to grip the paper was responsible. I have read Ross Seyfried's articles on paper patching and he was successful with quite thick paper and even 3 wraps of paper on "J" bullets.

I am sure there are a lot of factors at play:

- bullet diameter for sure
- groove diameter
- rifling depth
- type and strength of paper
- the usual variables of powder, bullet weights, rifling twist, etc.

The advice I have gotten here and what I have found worked for smokeless powder loads for my .303 is that the bullet should be cast or sized to about land diameter then patched to groove diameter or slightly over. I patched to 0.313" and did not size after patching. That certainly worked for my .303.

However, the .308 really wasn't picky and shot the 0.301" bullets patched to 0.315" quite well. They were smooth sided bullets and patched much oversize for the 0.309" groove but shot well from that gun. Now it has shallower rifling and the bullet was about land diameter so...

Testing will continue but so far this what I have found.

Paper patching certainly has its benefits especially for soft alloys and higher than normal cast bullet velocities but I find paper patching a little tedious so am leaning towards a heavy unpatched bullet and trying to get a velocity of 1800+ FPS. If I can get good accuracy and avoid leading this is my preferred route. I am making progress but not there yet.

If I don't reach my goal I will go back to paper patching for the .303.

I'm sure you will get many more responses and lots of good advice.

I hope that helps a bit.

Longbow

[dromia]

Hi Docone welcome to these forums and congratulations on your No1.

Whats the bore and groove diameter of your rifle? thats your starting point. You say the bore is .311" if so what is the groove diameter?


It is true to bore spec. you really need to slug the barrel or take a cast to know what that means.

[pdawg_shooter]

I patch for my .303 by starting with a Lyman 311466. I size it .304 and patch with 2 wraps of 16lb green bar computer paper. After the patch has dried I lube it with BAC and push it through a Lee .313 die. I load it in unsized brass over AA2495 and give it a light crimp with a Lee crimper. I also use a 311284, prepped the same way, and H3450. These are fyll power loads and my alloy test 12.0 to 12.5 BHN.

[docone31]

Wow. I have found the mother lode of how it works here!
I mean, I have already gotten some comprehensive replies.
I appreciate it.
It looks like I am going to get some sizing dies and try some.
Thanks guys. I do indeed feel welcome here.
I went back to the Lee site to look for appropriate molds. Now, here is where it might become complicated. I am kinda set on Lee products. I have used them for many years.
The Lee C309-170-F mold, can be sized down to .308.
However, my primary concern is sizing for the .303. On reading, if I am on target, size to .311, then wrap and size to .313. At least for a starting point. Obviously, firing will tell.
I am really getting excited on this. I have read, and having been in the paper industry before, that paper really shines up the bore.
I do have the Lee C312-185-1R mold. It casts at .313. Size it to .311, and wrap to .313, or .314, depending on results.
Aside from the fact, I love reloading, the cost of "tailor made" components is getting extreme. Shipping is another factor.
I see paper patching as adding another dimension to my experience pool.
What is BAC lube?
Another issue, are the patched bullets lubed, then sized? If so, I use 45%/55% with carnuba wax home made lube. Does this sound feasable?

[pdawg_shooter]

BAC lube is beeswax alox and carnuba. sounds just like yous !

[docone31]

Let me see if I can visualize that.
BAC,
Beeswax, Alox, Carnuba.
Like duh on my part!
Head hits keyboard.
Thanks pdawg. I really want to start out right, so I ask on everything.
I love the smell of cooking the beeswax. I got mine in a 5lb block. Works great as a flux, and mixes real well. I also use the beeswax as a stone holder when I set diamonds, and semiprecious stones. Steams right off.

[docone31]

I finally had time to slug the bore.
I did it three ways. I made a chamber cast. Drove a bullet into the muzzle, and ran a slug through the entire bore. That was fun. Next time I will add lube.
I get three land .303 as the measured groove diameter.
Now, I know the barrel is not a common barrel. It measures 21.10mm at the barrel, 14.10mm directly at the cap. She is an heavy rifle. The forearm band is milled down to accept the forearm attachment. Since I have the original, I got another cap, milled off the bayonette mountings. Doing that really makes a difference in the visual lines of the rifle. I am contemplating going .303 EPPS down the road. First is to make the paper patching work.
There is no throat erosion, so the barrel is indeed essentially unfired. I have only run non-corrosive ammunition through it.
I have a sizing die of .311 for it, and the groove diameter is .303.
The barrel is marked Lithgow so I am sure it is not an aftermarket something or other.

[Baron von Trollwhack]

Er, ah, isn't 303 Brit grove diameter supposed to be .311-.314 and bore at .303? BvT

[docone31]

Baron, you might be correct. All I know, is inside the lands is .303, The larger dimension is .311. I have always gotten lost on this terminology.

[martinibelgian]

How did you measure your groove diameter? don't forget that with odd-numbered rifling, there always is a land opposite a groove...

[scrapcan]

Terminology if measuring the slug or bore, Bore diameter is the small meaurement, groove diameter is the larger diameter. Bore diameter relates to the initial hole drilled in the barrel stock, the grooves are then the deeper portion that are produced by various means (cut rifling, button rifled, mandrel forged, and quite a few other types that others can point out).

[dromia]

Hi Gert :-D

How you doing mate? Our paths haven't crossed in a while, everything OK or have you just been avoiding me. :-D

[martinibelgian]

I'm fine, missed you last Imperial. Will you be at the Phoenix? I'll be there from Friday till sunday...

[docone31]

Yeah, odd rifling is an issue.
What I did, I measured against an unindented side. I measured the depth of the rifling. I remeasured several times to to give a baseline. From there it was just a matter of taking a compass, making a .313 circle, then deducting the land thickness. I made a second circle. That gave me .303.
My mold gives me .313. If I do a two wrap patch, What size do I size it down to? My guess would be .311. That should give me .314. If I use 16lb., computer paper.
I think.

[dromia]

No Gert I won't make the Phoenix, I'm off to France for two weeks plus on Friday, Battlefield visits.

Hoping to get to the Imperial this year though. :-D

Good to hear you are in fine fettle.

[pdawg_shooter]

Size it to bore dia. + .001/.0015, ie. .304 to.3045 and give it 2 wraps of 16lb paper.

[pdawg_shooter]

Rule of thumb, divide the weight of the paper by 3 and multiply by the number of wraps. 16lb divided by3 X 2 =10. .304 plus 10=.314.

[docone31]

Hokay, I like the forumla.
Now, doing it backwards, never having made a paper patch before,
I have a .309 sizing die.
What size paper, that is available, could I use with this die?
With the 16lb paper, I get .319. A little large it seems to size down to .313, or .314.
I would think, realizing I have never made a paper patch before, that not a lot of pressure is used on sizing the patch after rolling.
I under stand, there is shrinkage after drying. I would have to measure any patch before applying at the range.

[docone31]

I just loaded up some rounds with lead/tin alloy. I have the Lee Collet die set for .303.
My sized .313 bullets fall out of the case when loaded. I guess I am going to try for .314 on the paper patching.
I did find a way to make the neck tight at .313. I set the cartridge on top of the shell holder and go up a tad. I can get the neck tight with almost no crimping. Being lead bullets at this point, I do not want a crimp.
At the range, I have a soft spot so I plan on shooting the 20rds I have loaded and trying bullet recovery. I am lucky at our club. They are IHMSA sensitive so they have a spot for load development at the range.
I will be looking for land depth on fired projectiles. Knowing the diameter, it will really help in developing a load.
My thoughts now, I can size to .309, then size the paper jackets to .314.
Any thoughts?

[martinibelgian]

You have to change your approach - start off with paper that is suitable, then size the bullets to comne up to the right dimension when patched - otherwise it might be hard to find the right paper thickness...
Also, try and go for a bullet sized to land diameter (.303 or +0.001), and partch up to groove diameter - or in you case, maybe better throat diameter - whatever fits well in yuor necksized cases. But I usually start with paper selection, then adapt the bullet sizing to suit.

[NoDakJak]

So dad burned many problems that I finally wrapped the boolits with teflon thread tape and sized to groove diameter. Works great1 Give it a try. Neil

[pdawg_shooter]

Hokay, I like the forumla.
Now, doing it backwards, never having made a paper patch before,
I have a .309 sizing die.
What size paper, that is available, could I use with this die?
With the 16lb paper, I get .319. A little large it seems to size down to .313, or .314.
I would think, realizing I have never made a paper patch before, that not a lot of pressure is used on sizing the patch after rolling.
I under stand, there is shrinkage after drying. I would have to measure any patch before applying at the range.

Applying at the range? We must be talking about two different things here. The patching I do is at the reloading bench. The patches are applied wet and let dry for 24 hours. Not something you could do at the range.

[docone31]

I do not think it is feasable to wrap at the range.
What I meant is, to make small batches and test them, starting with the smaller diameter and slowly working up.
I have trickle reloaded at the range, but that was with swaged bullets. I suspect paper patching will be easier than I visualize once I get through the learning curve.
My bore measures dead on at .313, my die at .313 sized bullets, they drop right out of the neck. It looks like I will be targeting sizing to .314.
I have a sizing die at .309, and one at .313. What size paper would you suggest if sized to .309 and then left unsized to hit .314?

[martinibelgian]

No paper will be that thin... You need to size to .303, or close:
4 thicknesses of paper, 0.005 total thickness: 0.005/4= 0.00125, that would be extremely thin paper! You can find 0.002, but that'is almost double... Of course, you can laways patch the .309 bullet, and then size the patched bullet to .314 (just polish out your sizer...)

[pdawg_shooter]

Paper for patching need to be tough to survive feeding from the mag and the trip down the barrel. I tried thin paper in a micro-groove and had no luck at all. Sized a little smaller and used heaver paper and everything was fine. Seems like green bar computer is tougher than most, guess because it has to feed through the printer with those tractor strips on the side. Take a Lee .285 push through die and lap it to .304/.3045 and you will have much better luck. If you dont want to lap it yourself Lee will custom make any size for $25.00 plus shipping.

[docone31]

pdawg,
I never thought of having Lee make a die.
I appreciate it.
.304, two turns of 'puter paper to .314.
Gonna work on that.

[pdawg_shooter]

Its easy to make then yourself. If you have a electric drill, 6" or so 1/4" rod and a little emery paper. Split the rod with a hacksaw, wrap the emery through the slot and around the rod and start lapping. I used 180 grit to start, switch to 320 when I get close and finish polish with crocus cloth.

[docone31]

Ok, after much ado, awaiting a reply from Lee on making me a die in .304.
I have cast considerable bullets in the 155gn, gas check bullet. It measures at .313 when cast.
I can, push on the gas checks. I only have a sizer in .311. The bullets could be either pan lubed, or lubed by hand.
My dies only open the case to .312. The gas check has a flair that allows for the gas check to enter the case mouth.
I loaded 20 at the sized .311, with gas checks. I used 38.5gns of 4895, neck sized only.
I test fire next week if my schedule allows. I have surplus 4895 and it is supposed to be a little slower. More like 4064.