Help me decide on a BP cartridge or Ball and cap revolver

[berksglh]

Ive been reloading for almost 20, and casting for 2-3 years. Casting for 45ACP in a 1911, 9mm for buddies, 300AAC for a bolt action and 223 for my DPMS AR-15 all with great accuracy. I enjoy casting, reloading and powder coating almost as much as shooting.

Ive also made pyrotechnic grade BP in my ball mill for my own fireworks, so I'm intrigued by BP guns now.

Been debating between a BP cartridge or picking up a Pietta Model 1858 New Army Target .44 Caliber Black Powder Revolver.

Not certain if Id venture into using my own sulfur based BP or store bought alternatives..

Ive only used push through sizers, pan lube, and switched to powder coating.

Give me your thoughts and opinions.

Cleaning, casting, cartridges, cap and ball, lube, paper cartridges.....

Dave.

[flyingmonkey35]

You can't loose with a new army revolver's.

I have one and just bought a traditions revolver loading press for it. Makes loading the cylinder a breeze. And its off the gun so way safer.


Or if you can afford it buy a bulnderbuss.

A single shot cap n ball (dueling) pistol. Is fun

Regardless of what type of bp you use. Its all needs to be cleaned well after shooting.

[carbine]

I have been shooting BP almost exclusively (some .22 RF) for 35 years. The revolver only require oversize lead ball, powder, caps and wonder wads or grease.
You may have to raise the front sight to shoot to point of aim.

Long Guns, your choice. Accuracy at long range 45-70, plinking 44-40. Cases, prep, heads powder, primers eazy peazy

[TXGunNut]

Pick one, the rest will follow, lol. I love my cap & ball revolvers, you can load and shoot one as long as you want to for just a few dollars worth of powder, primers and lead.

[Nobade]

Hint...that 1911 45 ACP makes a great black powder rig. Just use BP compatible bullet lube and as much FFFg as you can get to fit. I run mine with my homemade powder and it is just as accurate as smokeless loads, and a ton more fun.

-Nobade

[berksglh]

Ive seen posts on BP1911's, and have been thinking of trying it just for fun and to screw with people at the range, but would rather have a dedicated BP gun.

I was never a revolver person, i just don't like them. Never liked asparagus as a kid, or beer or wine as a young adult. Things have changed.

For some odd reason, a BP revolver is just calling to me to come get one. [emoji57]

Leaning towards the Pietta 1858 New Army target, mainly cause there easy to find, and when on sale, decent price. I like the look of them as well.

Now blued, or stainless? [emoji848]

[Tracy]

I recommend the Pietta '58; I've had two of them and still have one. Blue or stainless is a personal choice. I prefer blue because I like the aged patina it acquires with use, and because they are more traditional and less expensive. IMHO the stainless is not the huge improvement some claim, because you still have to clean it thoroughly after you shoot it.

BTW, keep an eye out for an affordable Ruger Old Army as well. That is the best black powder revolver ever made.
My recommendation is to get the Remmy clone, and watch for a Ruger. Not one or the other.

Also, visit 1858remington.com. It is a forum dedicated to all cap and ball revolvers, but especially (as the name would suggest) the '58 Remmy clone.

[Knarley]

Pietta makes good revolvers, I have several. I know I'll get some back lash, but personally I would avoid the brass framed guns. (I have two that are now in the "parts" bin) You will need pure lead for the balls that are just slightly oversized for the chamber. You want to have a small ring of lead shaved off when seating. That will help prevent a chain fire. Hard lead is a pain in the butt to seat. The loading press is a good idea. It serves to help make loading a lot easier, and since the cylinder is out of the gun, you can wipe down the cylinder face to help keep the fouling under control, and you can also wipe down the arbour.... gooey guns suck in the middle of a stage at a match......... or tourney.
Stainless or blued is up to you, remember you can't use steel wool on stainless, it will contaminate it and it will rust there. I prefer blued guns, they just look right.
SPG or TC bore butter work for lube, I mix them. SPG is a little thick when it's cold, and the bore butter is a tad on the runny side when it's hot. I have found that if one melts SPG and pours it in a small container ( a coffee can lid would work) about a 1/4 " thick and cut your own wonder wads they work great. ( I use the wad punch for my 45-70) I dust them with a little "Motor Mica" so they don't stick together.
BP works the best, FFFG you get the roar and the flames ;-). Stay away from Pyrodex, hard to light and clean. Up grading the nipples depends on whether you are going to shoot in matches or not. But they will mushroom (The factory ones) eventually, when needed I'd upgrade. Soap & hot water will clean them up, dry them and a little oil and you are ready to go. Remember to take the nipples out and make sure THEY are dry and oiled too. You will need a good nipple wrench of course, and a box of pipe cleaners for making sure there isn't any gunk in the nipples.
C&B guns are a hoot to shoot, have fun with them..........
Regards,
Knarley

[country gent]

For target shooting plinking the army revolvers cap and ball do a fine job next step up would be a ruger old army for improved accuracy and strength better sights. If hunting is to be considered a walker model or one of the dragoons would offer heavier charges due to the longer cylinders. Alot depends on its useage. As stated above the earlier single shot horse or dueling pistols can be very accurate and alot of fun. The smaller "carry" revolvers alot of fun and enjoyable. The horse pistols ( Walkers, dragoons were used as a carbine and carried in saddle pomels around saddle horn or behind the rider sometimes both) are bigger hevier shoot heavier charges and sometimes are fitted with a removeable stock. As to cartrige guns a 44-40 or 45 Colt in a good revolver is alot of fun. A rifle in one of the true black powder cartridges is a ball but some really run thru powder and lead quick.

[Mad Mucus]

IMO you can't beat a Ruger Old Army for a cap'n'ball revolver.

I like .45 Colt BPC in a Marlin Cowboy leveraction rifle.

BigLube® bullets run best in BPR.

MM

[berksglh]

Stopped at Cabellas last night to compare the 58's with and without target sights side by side. Web listed a sale on the 58 with a spare cylinder for $249, but the gun counter guy couldn't find it. He said he had a similar unit, but no idea what it was. Was also on sale for $229. What the heck, let me see it.

When he opened the box, and pulled this out of the packaging all oiled up, I was sold. Just an amazing looking piece, pictures don't do the engraving justice.

Thanks for all the info and advice.158316
Dave

[mdevlin53]

If you go for a 58 cap and ball you can get a conversion cylinder and have the best of both worlds. shoot round balls or 45 colt both wit the black and have a ball.

[yeahbub]

Excellent choice, berksglh! The Pietta's have served me well, as well as Uberti's, but the best of either are the closed frame designs like the 1858 Remington. No doubt you'll notice the chambers are undersize, but close enough that soft lead will obturate to full groove diameter and good accuracy will result. As noted, a good BP-compatible lube will keep your cylinder running longer and I keep a bottle of Ballistol handy for that. A note on keeping nipple extraction easy; Remove the nipples from the cylinders, heat them to 150-200 deg F and anoint the threads with paraffin or bee's wax and reassemble while hot enough for the wax to still be liquid. The wax will fill and seal the crevices in the threads and even on a hot day, will prevent fouling from working its way in there and acting as thread locker, making removal very difficult. With wax sealed threads they'll come out pretty as you please. Same goes for breech plugs, sight screws, anything threaded, etc. on muzzleloaders.

As for BP substitutes, Pyrodex and 777 are oxidizer-rich and the fouling is corrosive, so you must clean it thoroughly right away or you'll have rust blooms that day in humid weather. I have used Pioneer Powder 3f equivalent and Goex Pinnacle (no longer made but you might run across it) and they are much less inclined to rust and they don't gum things up as quickly in my experience, but I'm not shooting continuously all afternoon. BP works about the best and some say they have little trouble keeping their pistols rolling.

Round balls are simplest but conicals are fun too, and more accurate for me. I follow Elmer Keith's method for accuracy and use an over-the-powder card wad of cereal box or paper plate material, a lube cookie of 5/4/1 beeswax/shortening/canola 1/8" to 3/16" thick cut with a .45 case and then the boolit. This provides more consistent lube than smearing it over the ball, most of which gets blown away by the previous shot. They both work, but I prefer mine stay put.

A vast improvement in loading speed is the paper cartridge. I make mine with those papers used in doing perms called "end wraps" or "perm papers". Thin and strong, they're a great place to start. You can see some excellent tutorials on the "cap and ball channel" on Youtube, the best I found is at https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_JIyc6s8fnQ. I make mine more consumable and humidity-proof by painting them with a thimble-full of smokeless dissolved in enough acetone to get a consistency like model paint, brush it on anywhere paper is exposed. Let it dry thoroughly and you have a more durable product. These make reloading in the field MUCH faster and more practical. Good luck with your new endeavor!

[Hickok]

I love the cap and ball revolvers.

I have always said that once you have mastered the cap and ball revolvers, can shoot them accurately and maintain them properly, then you can call yourself a "Shootist!"

I have both Remington .44 and Colt 1860 .44's and like them both, but the 1860 Colt .44 is my favorite. The grip and the way the revolver "points" is just perfect for me. It just has the "feel" that I like.

[GabbyM]

With a cap and ball revolver you have nothing else to buy. No load dies or brass. Just a twenty dollar Lee mold.

[FALaholic]

I have both the Remington and Colt revolvers both made by Pietta, and the finish and fit are very good to excellent. These things are an absolute joy to shoot especially with my 8 year old son ( he has learned to load them on his own). Building memories:2_high5: with my little buddy.

[alamogunr]

A vast improvement in loading speed is the paper cartridge. I make mine with those papers used in doing perms called "end wraps" or "perm papers". Thin and strong, they're a great place to start. You can see some excellent tutorials on the "cap and ball channel" on Youtube, the best I found is at https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_JIyc6s8fnQ. I make mine more consumable and humidity-proof by painting them with a thimble-full of smokeless dissolved in enough acetone to get a consistency like model paint, brush it on anywhere paper is exposed. Let it dry thoroughly and you have a more durable product. These make reloading in the field MUCH faster and more practical. Good luck with your new endeavor!

Do you have a link to the video that is mentioned in the above video that gives the dimensions of the mandrel and template for the paper? I've looked and can't find these specific items.

I had never considered paper cartridges until I watched that video. It is a lot simpler than I had imagined.

[hpdrifter]

and to screw with people at the range, but would rather have a dedicated BP gun.



heck yeah, you could tell em it needs new rings.

[Jim K.]

Cleanup would be the big thing for BP guns. Ballistol is a great lube or cleaner. I shoot the Frontiersman category in SASS and have found a few things that makes things easy.
One of the best is to have a mix of rubbing alcohol, hydrogen peroxide, and Murphy's Oil Soap. Mix 1/3rd each in a spray bottle, spray it on and just wipe the fouling off.
Be careful not to get any in the cylinders of the revolver.

[yeahbub]

Alamogunr, it's in the vids by the Hungarian fellow, but I can't recall which one right off. He mentions his starts at .30 dia. but no further details like taper angle are clearly specified. My mandrel is 5/8" diameter hardwood, .35 dia at the small end and .44 dia at the 1" mark and the taper continues up to full diameter, allowing me to make adjustments as to where to start the cartridge. It looks like an oversize pencil with a blunt end. This allows leaving the paper long and wrapping it over the boolit and leaving a "pull tab" tail like he mentions in the video, no glue needed for the boolit. You may have to play with it some to get the right volume to still get all of the boolit into the chamber. This is less of a problem with compressible substitutes like Pioneer, but real BP is less forgiving as to how much crush you can get. Once you settle on the load you wish to use routinely, you can experiment with mandrel dimensions.

[alamogunr]

Thanks, yeahbub. I saw those videos but the first one I looked at didn't mention any thing useful for a beginner paper cartridge maker. I guess I will go thru all until I find it.

[Petrol & Powder]

There's a lot of fun to be found in a can & ball revolver. I've always preferred the Remington design with the top strap.

[cajun shooter]

I shot my first BP firearm in 1970 and have not stopped yet. My current health problems have me not shooting at the current time but I hope that will change soon. I will tell you that they have several ways to enjoy the sport of BP shooting, some are very easy and some are complex. I started with a 44 cal 1857 Remington and 36 cal Colt revolvers.
If you are old enough to have seen any of the old westerns in B&W and where the shooter would throw his empty gun at the bad guy, you will understand after your first 6 shots and then reloading the revolver. This is why many frontiersman of the time carried more than one gun or he carried extra cylinders like Josie Wales did in the movie.
Don't listen to those who say you need hot water and soap to clean your gun, faster and better ways exists for todays shooters.
I keep a bottle of Windex w/vinegar on my shooting cart, you can spray the entire gun down with it and it will clean it like new. Another good product which I also use is Ballistol. I mix 2 ounces of it with 14 ounces of water and put it in a good spray bottle from Lowes or Home depot. Ballistol is good because it will not harm any other materials on your gun. There is loads of info on these products on the web.
After you clean your guns, apply the product EEZOX to it for complete care. It's another wonder material for BP shooters. Take Care, enjoy yourself and have fun! Later David

[wills]

Why not get a cap & ball and a conversion and have both?

http://www.guns.com/2012/12/13/the-cartridge-conversion-revolvers/

http://www.brownells.com/handgun-parts/action-parts/cylinder-parts/cylinders/revolver-cartridge-conversion-cylinder-prod9488.aspx

[berksglh]

Why not get a cap & ball and a conversion and have both?

Thanks for the idea. Picked up a conversion last weekend for $425.

Its a bit unique in that it converts over to a 357 magnum in stainless. [emoji57]

Heres the conversion:

160543

[RedneckRob]

Do you have a link to the video that is mentioned in the above video that gives the dimensions of the mandrel and template for the paper? I've looked and can't find these specific items.

I had never considered paper cartridges until I watched that video. It is a lot simpler than I had imagined.

Here you go.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-2HUcfAyaaQ

[alamogunr]

Thanks! A little late for me to watch tonight but I've bookmarked it so I won't lose it.

[berksglh]

Thanks! A little late for me to watch tonight but I've bookmarked it so I won't lose it.

Check this post out I started on the 1858 forum about paper cartridges. Go to post #12 for a link to the video I made. No cutting of papers required.

http://1858remington.com/discuss/index.php?topic=9898.0


My setup can also be used to make a sticky grease cookie and lead projectile pill without the paper. Just dump a charge and drop a pill ram and prime. For those that don't want to mess with the paper and rolling.

[SSGOldfart]

Ive been reloading for almost 20, and casting for 2-3 years. Casting for 45ACP in a 1911, 9mm for buddies, 300AAC for a bolt action and 223 for my DPMS AR-15 all with great accuracy. I enjoy casting, reloading and powder coating almost as much as shooting.

Ive also made pyrotechnic grade BP in my ball mill for my own fireworks, so I'm intrigued by BP guns now.

Been debating between a BP cartridge or picking up a Pietta Model 1858 New Army Target .44 Caliber Black Powder Revolver.

Not certain if Id venture into using my own sulfur based BP or store bought alternatives..

Ive only used push through sizers, pan lube, and switched to powder coating.

Give me your thoughts and opinions.

Cleaning, casting, cartridges, cap and ball, lube, paper cartridges.....

Dave.
Dave why not both,the steel frame 1858Remington,works well with a conversation cylinder for BP cartridges and the factory cylinder for cap & ball. Then you can still load your own,I'm testing PC.boolits in my walkers

[higgins]

Slug the chambers of your new gun before you buy a mold. I first got a .454 mold for my Pietta 1860 Colt, then found that the chambers were smaller than anticipated and I felt like I was having to use too much force to seat balls. Ended up with a .451 Lee mold that was a good fit; it casts a .452 ball.

[berksglh]

I got the 451 lee ball and the conical. Balls shave a small ring, conicals are tight but ahoot well. Heres 50 shots paper cartridge 451 balls with my DIY grease cookie paper cartridges at 25 yds.

162134

Going to have to file the front site down a bit.

[Good Cheer]

You can use a lubrisizer press to size .45 pistol boolits to slip into the chambers on most .44's. Just control the depth into the sizer and leave the front band large to shear off when loaded.

Another route is to have a mold that's made for the boolit to shear off in front and have an adjustable length smaller diameter hind end.

And yet another, have the chambers altered to be whatever you want.

Personally I kinda like caseless rounds. Whatever works! [smilie=l:

[dualsport]

I have recently bought a Pietta '58. Where are you guys getting your caps, what size, and what capper works best? Thanks.

[berksglh]

Best price in Green bay Wisconsin area is Cabelas. $7.99 per 100 cnt. tin.

I like the CCI caps better then the Remingtons, and my 58 likes the #10 better. The 11's work fine, but aren't as snug of a fit.

For shooting by a bench, i just cap with my bare hands, as I find its quicker the loading the capper. But if you dont have a table/bench when loading, the 58 cylinder has recessed or shrouded cap nipples, so you need a skinny end on the capper like the stick capper or the seashell shaped. Locally I am unable to find the seashell, and the oval cappers wont get into the shroud on the 58 nipples to fit.

Stick capper only holds about 15? So I rarely use it.162784
162785

[griffiga]

I've always had better accuracy luck with the solid frame revolvers like the 1860 Remington, however, that last 51 Navy .36 surprised me as I was hitting soda cans consistently at 15 yards. I have both cap and ball as well as cartridge and I'm glad I don't have to choose one over the other as they both have their place in my shooting arena.

[Texantothecore]

One of the things I love about my Pietta 51 navy is that it is really difficult to blow through 10 bucks of ammo in a shooting session.

You can shoot for pocket change.

[Omnivore]

He mentions his starts at .30 dia. but no further details like taper angle are clearly specified.


You have to listen to his words. He gives you all the required specs for the mandrel;

0.3" to 0.46" over a length of 1.3".

That's for a 30 grain charge or equal combined volume of powder and filler. The Vid is here;
https://m.youtube.com/watch?list=PLIGg3pcPWcaLm2YWlzLjtU-D-P74N667d&v=-2HUcfAyaaQ= (https://m.youtube.com/watch?list=PLIGg3pcPWcaLm2YWlzLjtU-D-P74N667d&v=-2HUcfAyaaQ=)

I use 30 to 32 grains of Old Eynsford, Swiss or regular Goex 3F, or sometimes an equal volume of T7 3F, a 1/8" lube pill, and either a 200 grain conical or a .454" round ball. Whatever loads easy and shoots well in your gun. No need for the tiisue paper at the end; plain old cig paper or perm paper will do just as well. I've fired hundreds of these cartridges with excellent results, and they are very similar to the cartridges they used by the millions in the 1860s.

Once you get your wrapping mandrel close to spec, you can either tweak the mandrel to hold the charge volume you want, or tweak the charge volume to fit the paper case like you want.

I used a bench sander to form the mandrel, with the belt running parallel to the length of a long dowel for ease of handling, then cut the dowel to length, but you can see in the capandball video that he apparently used a sharp knife and simply whittled it. It need not be perfectly round, nor pretty, nor exactly to spec, but merely functional.

Ideally you want the bullet or ball to tighten up inside the paper case at about the same time it tightens up against the powder (or against the lube pill which is sitting on the powder). That's not difficult because the perm paper will stretch a little bit and also because you can tweak the powder charge as needed to make that happen.

Not all your paper cases will have exactly the same volume, because your rolling will not turn out exactly the same for each case. This does not matter. All that really matters is that your cartridges hold together long enough to mek it out to the field, and that they load relatively easily into the gun.

If you're using heel bullets, the heel will need to be small enough that the extra thickness of the paper does not make the heel too big to insert easily into the chamber. Thus if you're ordering a custom bullet mold, you'll want a heel diameter of no more than about 0.440" (netative tolerance) for a stock Pietta 44 and no more than about .443" for an Uberti. Otherwise youll have to fuss around getting your bullets started, even though that same bullet may have fit fine without paper around it. The Lee 450-200-1R bullet works OK in both guns, but the Pietta frame cutout needs opened up a bit. .454" round ball works great in both, with no modifications, as will .457" for them what wants a longer bearing surface.

[ogre]

I enjoy my 1860 Army and Colt's Dragoon but I am especially partial towards my 1872 open top (Army grips) in .44 special. A hoot to shoot plus I think it has a certain coolness factor going for it.

https://encrypted-tbn0.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcRlbDmK64pvhG2u2dQ6PUZMgUAfxNI_c Uma0u4o2QKX_9xmcknz (https://www.google.com/imgres?imgurl=http://www.cimarron-firearms.com/media/catalog/category/CA916-OpenTopArmy-7-45LC-RT-Horiz_1.jpg&imgrefurl=http://www.cimarron-firearms.com/products/revolvers/open-top-revolvers/1872-open-top-army-1.html&h=250&w=650&tbnid=rEmcKk4sBDN7fM:&docid=sL2Oml8GC49rrM&ei=sGP1VtuBFNbojwPggKroBw&tbm=isch&client=safari&ved=0ahUKEwjbmYXDndzLAhVW9GMKHWCACn0QMwgiKAEwAQ)

http://www.zoominto.com/zoomapi/ZoomButt.gif