What is the Origin of the term "Short Rifle" versus "Carbine?"

[W.R.Buchanan]

We all need to know what the origin was so we can accurately describe Lever Guns.

Short Rifles typically having Octagon Barrels shorter than 22" with no barrel band, and Carbines typically having 20" or shorter round barrels with the barrel band.

I thought the term was coined by Winchester when they came out with the 1873 which was available in a zillion different configurations to further categorize the guns? But I have no real evidence of that.

Will someone who actually knows the origin please comment?

Randy

[pietro]

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AFAIK, the origin of the "short Rifle" concept is older than dirt...........................

Early BP was relatively inefficient, requiring a long barrel for complete combustion; but as BP's developed, so did the rifle's - which could use a shorter barrel to get full combustion.

Some of the earliest references to the term "short rifle" originated in the early 1600's, when the European rifles of the time began developing into the shorter, "Jaeger" type.

Winchester was only one of the newer firearms producers to use the term for an even shorter version of their "Rifle" (models), as opposed to a "Carbine".


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[Char-Gar]

In days gone by, a carbine was intended for mounted (horseback) use. This is back in the day when infantry rifles were too long for cavalry use. Although there is no longer horseback cavalry, there are still carbines which are military rifles designed to be used in close spaces.

[Outpost75]

The factory letter with my ca. 1908 Winchester Model 1894, 20" round barrel, shotgun butt, ladder rear sight, no barrel band, "extra light" stock describes it as a Short Rifle.

157579

[Chill Wills]

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Early BP was relatively inefficient, requiring a long barrel for complete combustion; but as BP's developed, so did the rifle's - which could use a shorter barrel to get full combustion.

That is a very interesting stand alone statement. As I understand it, the formula for BP has some wiggle room but changes little with regard to burn rate. Graded particle size and glaze controls much of that.
In complete fairness I have to admit my experience with BP only goes back to the late 1960's.

[runfiverun]

see outposts picture.
that's a short rifle.

butt stock, and barrel combination.
the rifles have 24" barrels and the carbines are 18" the rifles also have the crescent butt plate.
if ever given my choice of the three I always take the short rifle, unless I'm dealing with the 25-20 /32-20 case size.

[pietro]

That is a very interesting stand alone statement. As I understand it, the formula for BP has some wiggle room but changes little with regard to burn rate. Graded particle size and glaze controls much of that.
In complete fairness I have to admit my experience with BP only goes back to the late 1960's.



While you're correct, regarding BP formulation from the mid-1800's to today - I was speaking to the very much (200 + years) earlier BP power & consistency, which required very long barrels to afford complete combustion.

Keep in mind that, with most human endeavors, one must walk before learning to run - which most certainly applies to manufacturing methods.


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[northmn]

Don't know where the article is but Mike Venturino went into detail on the differences between a short rifle and a carbine. Barrel length is not one of them as both can have the same barrel. Outposts Winchester is classed as a short rifle because it does not have the barrel rings and has a shotgun buttplate. The foreend cap is for a rifle. The older crescent steel buttplates have gone the way of the dinosaur, which is a good thing, and some carbines today may support a straighter plastic buttplate. Saddle rings also made them a carbine. I cannot remember the differences and don't much get excited over them.
The term carbine is French and was started way back when (1580 according to the entomology dictionary) referring to a cavalry weapon. French carabine. In the military the muskets or rifles were adapted to bayonet and had full stocks the cavalry carbines often had shorter stocks and no bayonet attachments as in the trap door Springfields. I mention this because the original French Charleville after which the US adopted their first muskets had barrel rings. They were not considered carbines.
Winchester seems to be the big one for differentiating as many call any short rifle a carbine, ie the M1 carbine. Venturino was referring to Winchesters in his discussion. As Marlin follows Winchester some of their rifles may be carbines as opposed to short rifles. As they make them they can call them what they want.

DEP

[Shawlerbrook]

If my memory serves me I think Venturino's book Shooting Leverguns of the Old West explains the difference. It is also explained above.

[Chill Wills]

Keep in mind that, with most human endeavors, one must walk before learning to run - which most certainly applies to manufacturing methods.
.

So by extension you are saying, short rifles only came along after BP burn rate improved?

I am not at all in agreement that do to manufacturing methods, BP dating before 1800 was slow, none could be made that burned fast enough to use in a 26" carbine, let alone a pistol.

I still think granulation size regulated burn rate to a great degree, for powders of all times. I think that is why we prime flinters with 4F and in my case, sifted fines just as was done 300 years ago.
But, I could be wrong. I am no expert nor have I read extensively about anyone preforming good science on eighteenth century powder.

[OverMax]

When Winchester cut the barrel and magazines of their 1894 long barreled rifles to carbine length. The term Short Rifle was the most efficient way in house to describe the new shorter model. (That's what I was told many many years ago.)

[dtknowles]

That is a very interesting stand alone statement. As I understand it, the formula for BP has some wiggle room but changes little with regard to burn rate. Graded particle size and glaze controls much of that.
In complete fairness I have to admit my experience with BP only goes back to the late 1960's.

While longer barrels did create better ballistics and longer sight radius improves accuracy. Infantry arms had long barrels as much for bayonet combat as for shooting.

Tim

[Chill Wills]

While longer barrels did create better ballistics and longer sight radius improves accuracy. Infantry arms had long barrels as much for bayonet combat as for shooting. Tim

Absolutely - and hopefully a lot longer arms, rifle and bayonet than the other guy!

[Malamute]

So by extension you are saying, short rifles only came along after BP burn rate improved?


Actually, "short rifles" in Winchester terminology came about when people special ordered them.

Carbines generally had shorter lighter barrels, the barrel bands around the forends and at the end of the magazine tube. They also usually had military type leaf sights (today often called ladder sights) and small stud type front sights. The rifles had sporting type sights, a capped forend, and a single ring securing the magazine tube rather than a band around both barrel and magazine. Rifles had both round and octagon barrels, round actually being standard, but the octagons being more commonly preferred. Butt stocks are variable. The early 1866 carbines had crescent butts, like rifles, they were changed to a military style semi-crescent that predominated until the late 20's. That's the general trend from way back. "Short rifles" were simply guns made with rifle type parts, but in shorter than common barrel lengths. Carbines, after the late 20s or early 30s tended to have flat shotgun type butts, and sporting type sights ( the front ramp came into vogue about then).

The so-called "saddle rings" were actually called "sling rings" back in the day. The original intent was for them to be attached to a wide belt (sling)worn diagonally across the shoulder with a large snap hook. You can see them if you google image search "carbine sling". Cavalry used them to keep the gun attached to the trooper in case they came off their horse. All the Civil War period and a bit earlier cavalry carbines had them. Winchester put them on their carbines, and always hoped to interest the military in their guns, but it was never to be, in any real quantities. The ring hung on as an obsolete artifact until the late 20s or early 30's, and legend grew up that they were used to hang the gun from a loop of leather over the saddle horn, but little or no evidence exists they were every commonly used that way. Many old carbines show the rings were removed, as a noisy nuisance. About my feelings about them.

[W.R.Buchanan]

This is good and I welcome more comments on this subject.

Pics from L-R top to bottom.

Carbine, Short Rifle, Rifle
Short Rifle, Short Rifle

Last Pic is a NRA Sporter is it a Carbine or Rifle??? It has a Barrel Band and a 24" barrel.

or does the term "Carbine" only pertain to Leverguns?

Randy

[Malamute]

Last Pic is a NRA Sporter is it a Carbine or Rifle??? It has a Barrel Band and a 24" barrel.

or does the term "Carbine" only pertain to Leverguns?

Randy

The '03 is a rifle with a barrel band.

Carbine doesn't only apply to leverguns. Marlin also doesn't necessarily use the terms the same, or tends to mix and match tradionally different types of parts.

Many early cavalry carbines, both single shots and repeater like the Spencer, had 22" barrels, which were quite a lot shorter than the rifle versions of the same type guns.

Many rifles had barrel bands. Most military rifles of the Civil War period had bands, as did the trapdoor Springfields, the Krags, and 1903's, among others.

Winchester had a military rifle version of many of their rifles that they called muskets. They had several barrel bands, longer barrels, bayonet lugs, and carbine-type butt plates (which were basically a copy of the Civil War period military rifles).

An 1866 Winchester military musket,

http://media.liveauctiongroup.net/i/12729/12883247_1.jpg?v=8CF1EE5C72C1BB0

[Griff]

As noted in an earlier post, carbine is from the French "carabiner" and has been associated with any long arm with a "shorter than normal length barrel." Certainly not strictly regulated to leverguns, since its use predates the levergun advent. The Hawken rifle is a carbine as compared to its Pennsylvania & Kentucky origins, tho' often closely compared to the Germanic Jaegers.

The differences between rifles, "short rifles" or carbines, IMO, are often manufacturer specific. The "Short Rifle" label is often applied to any arm equipped with the same "rifle" features, but with a barrel length less than the standard production length for that model. And although Winchester's standard rifle was 26" for say the mdl 94, even examples with 24" or 22" barrel lengths are not generally considered "short rifles". That distinction seems reserved for barrel lengths that are equal to the standard carbine length, in this, case 20" or less.

Your NRA Sporter would not, by this writer be considered a "short rifle" or carbine, of the original rifle version of the 1903, as its primary differentiating feature is simply its sporterized stock; I would only refer to it as a "Sporter". IIRC, the 1903 sported a standard 24" barrel, the same barrel length on the sporterized version. The military version from which it was derived also carried a barrel band. The barrel band(s) by it(them) self(selves) is not a distinguishing feature of "carbines", except in the case of many leverguns.

[northmn]

The underlying use of a "carbine" when I looked through the literature was often reserved for cavalry or horseback use. The rings in earlier muskets were likely as much for assembly as well as for military durability. Civilian rifles were pinned or used wedges which could be lost although they use some trapped wedges as in Hawkins. Horse back use could be pretty rough on a rifle also. I remember seeing a horse decide to roll in the dust one time and leave a Springfiled and a saber laying in the dirt. It was a horse for a Western cavalry reinactment group. The owner kind of yelled at the poor animal. The rings may permit a little more durability and stock integrety.
Many definitions for a carbine are now "short barreled rifles". In common vernacular if I say I have a carbine one assumes a short barreled rifle. Were the 600 series bolt action Remington's with their 18 inch barrels carbines or short rifles. If I called them either would anyone care.

DEP

[missionary5155]

Greetings
For the Winchester 1892 model the characteristics are
20 inch or shorter barrel octagon
Curved rifle butt plate
No saddle ring
Handguard 8 3/4 inches
Rear sight 4 inches forward the receiver
Caliber stamped on barrel left side
Serial # falls in the years about 1900 - 1930

Mike in Peru

[TXGunNut]

Sometimes short rifles had longer fore ends but like the rear sight placement Mike cited above it wasn't a hard & fast rule. There are apparently more than a few fake short rifles out there so knowing where the magazine attachment dovetails are supposed to be is very helpful. Rear sight type & placement is a pretty good clue as well.