45acp revolver Taper crimp question

[Drew P]

Just picked up a smith model 25 and so far love the heck out of it. However I'm curious why it's okay to have taper crimped 45acp rounds when most revolvers seem to specify roll crimped cartridges.
I haven't had any problems as yet, and some factory ammo felt pretty spirited.

[prestonj12]

Taper crimp like you would for an auto pistol. Since you need to headspace on the case mouth with the ACP and you're using the moon clips there is no need to roll crimp. The roll crimp on standard revolver cartridges is ok because most headspace on the rim.

[Wayne Smith]

Taper crimp like you would for an auto pistol. Since you need to headspace on the case mouth with the ACP and you're using the moon clips there is no need to roll crimp. The roll crimp on standard revolver cartridges is ok because most headspace on the rim.

HUH? Crimps on revolver cartridges are to prevent boolit pull. The moon clip establishes headspace just as a rim would so it is not headspacing off the case mouth there, right? (That statement is an assumption, I don't have one to know for sure)

If the taper crimp prevents boolit pull you are good to go, you have accomplished your purpose and, if it ain't broke, don't fix it! I often get into trouble when I ignore that maxim. If you are just starting and don't have a 1911 (but you will!) then set your die up to roll crimp if you want.

[Scharfschuetze]

If you are using half or full moon clips, the type of crimp is immaterial as the clip headspaces your rounds in the cylinder. I use a taper crimp and clips with my Model 1917s when I use rimless cases as they can also be used in a 1911, but I use a roll crimp when I use the rimmed 45 AR cases.

The main issue you have with revolvers, unlike semi-autos, is that in high recoiling rounds, poorly crimped boolits will work their way forward in the case. This can change your ballistics somewhat and in revolvers with longer rounds than the 45 ACP it can actually tie up the revolver if the boolit extends past the cylinder face.

I get similar accuracy with either roll or taper crimps when using the 45 ACP or 45 AR in a revolver.

Edit: Looks like Wayne beat me to the punch with the above info.

[Walkingwolf]

Try not to flare your cases to much, or order a custom flaring tool that only flares the mouth. A very tight case needs little crimp.

A revolver has the opposite problem of a semi auto. The bullet may get pulled out some under recoil, though I can't imagine a N frame 45 acp having that much recoil.

[Dan Cash]

Taper or roll, won't make any difference. A severe roll crimp can create excess head space if ammo is used without a clip in older Smith revolvers but I am talking about a doozy of a crimp. Newer Smiths require a clip to keep the cartridge from sliding all the way through the chamber.

[Larry Gibson]

As noted with the moon clips (double, half or full) the headspace is established by the clip not the case mouth. A taper crimp works fine with most standard 45 ACP loads because there is insufficient (given sufficient neck tension) recoil to cause a bullet from an unfired cartridge still in the cylinder to move out of the case under the recoil the fired cartridge or several fired cartridges.

I do load some heavier loads in 45 ACP cases for my revolver with a 245 gr 452490 and a 45-255-KT. I do use roll crimps on those because if not, with just taper crimps, usually the 4th, 5th and 6th bullets will have moved forward out of the cases from the 1st three rounds being fired.

Larry Gibson

157308

[Wayne Smith]

I have had revolvers locked up by 357Mag and 44Mag. Don't have a 45ACP revolver and it hasn't happened with my 45S&W. Locked up by boolits moving forward and blocking the cylinder from moving. That's why I carry a 8" brass rod in my range box.

[Outpost75]

I use a Lee .455 Webley die set with .45 ACP shell holder to load revolver rounds for my S&W .45 Hand Ejector

157315

[Char-Gar]

I think folks have pretty well covered the topic of crimp for revolvers vs. crimp for autopistols. I have some experience with Smith and Wesson DA revolvers in 45 ACP.

I use a taper crimp IF the bullet has no crimp groove and/or the round might also be fired in an autopistol, of which I have a few.

I use a roll crimp, if the bullets has a crimp groove and will only be used in the revolvers. This is for both the ACP and AR cases.

Currently I have 2 45 Hand Ejectors (Brazilian Navy), 1 1955 Target Model with 4" barrel and a 5 inch Model 625. They are all good handguns.

[bangerjim]

Well...........I use Lee Factory Crimp Dies on ALL my handgun loads 9-45 with cast. They chamber perfectly and perform 100% every single time. I am very happy. B4 using roll and taper, I had all kinds of intermittent problems chambering in semi's and revolvers. The FCD solves all that now.

[Drew P]

Okay thanks for the input. Here's the thing though, this N frame does allow use without moon clips, as it's designed for 45acp so it has a lip to headspace on the mouth. I doubt I'll use it much that way but I have tried it a few times and it does fine.
This is more theoretical discussion because I'll probably use -p hand loads exclusively but just seems curious because people seem to require a heavy roll crimp on other loads to prevent this boolit walking.
I suppose I should try shooting 5 and then measure the COAL on the 6th to see if anything moved.
Also, regarding bell, switched to a .452 powder expander for the Hornady recently so the problem, if it exists, should be made worse by that.

Also so wondering if boolit walk is made worse by lubes vs coated or jacketed bullets. I'm powder coating all my home casts now so there may be some inherent case tension that helps me retain the boolit vs a slippery lubed slug.

I don't own a roll crimp die but I do have a Lee factory crimp die that I haven't played with much. I may do some work with hat soon.

[Walkingwolf]

Okay thanks for the input. Here's the thing though, this N frame does allow use without moon clips, as it's designed for 45acp so it has a lip to headspace on the mouth. I doubt I'll use it much that way but I have tried it a few times and it does fine.
This is more theoretical discussion because I'll probably use -p hand loads exclusively but just seems curious because people seem to require a heavy roll crimp on other loads to prevent this boolit walking.
I suppose I should try shooting 5 and then measure the COAL on the 6th to see if anything moved.
Also, regarding bell, switched to a .452 powder expander for the Hornady recently so the problem, if it exists, should be made worse by that.

Also so wondering if boolit walk is made worse by lubes vs coated or jacketed bullets. I'm powder coating all my home casts now so there may be some inherent case tension that helps me retain the boolit vs a slippery lubed slug.

I don't own a roll crimp die but I do have a Lee factory crimp die that I haven't played with much. I may do some work with hat soon.

I would have the expander turned back to where there is only a very short expanding neck, just leaving mostly the bell. Just enough to get the bullet in the case. If using cast which is slicker than copper I would size .002 over, .001 is normal. The oversize will not mean much with cast, it will form down upon hitting the forcing cone. The larger bullet also will prevent the bullet from locking up the cylinder if it does move. Usually the chamber throat is tight in most guns, bullet can only go so far before it is stopped by the throat.

[Char-Gar]

I have been handloading for revolvers since 1960 or so and have never had a bullet jump the crimp and tie up the cylinder. It is not a big problem as far as I am concerned. I just crimp into the groove just enough so a fingernail won't catch on the case mouth.

There are quite a few things folks talk about on these boards that are mostly theoretical problem. New folks get spun up, trying to avoid problems which most likely won't happen.

For 45 caliber expanders (ACP, Cowboy and Long Colt) I use a pair of Lyman 310 M type expanders with a thread adapter in the press. These come in .452 and .454, there is enough spring back in the brass to make for a good fit without running the risk of deforming a soft cast bullet. With a decent crimp, as above, there is never a problem with the bullet jumping the crimp.

[Victor N TN]

My S&W 25-2, 6" Target Model of 1955 eats the same fodder I feed my 1911. From a 5" 1911 my loads of 230 grain H&G military profile bullet at 850+ fps, feed right through the 25-2. I run them all through my Dillon XL 650. I have a taper crimp die, but haven't used it in over a decade. Like Char-Gar said, "I just crimp into the groove just enough so a fingernail won't catch on the case mouth." I do much the same on everything.

Good luck.

[Drew P]

Did you mean roll crimp die you haven't used in a decade? I would think a taper crimp is needed to remove the bell if nothing else. I'm also keen to keep this load consistent with what I feed my 1911, and other future weapons that take this cartridge. I like the cartridge for many reasons, not the least of which is that my ammo plant cranks them out with an amazing volume that can't be matched any other way in my shop, and I'd rather not be adjusting or anything if I don't have to.

[Victor N TN]

I run them all through my Dillon XL 650. I have a taper crimp die, but haven't used it in over a decade.


I have NOT used the Taper Crimp Die in a long time. But I check all my rounds like I was going to a match this weekend. I have a minimum chamber gauge and I individually put every round through it. I used to take the 1911 apart and use the chamber in the barrel for the same purpose. Then I found a separate gauge for that. I'm working on getting that kind of gauge for each caliber I reload for that I can find.

Good luck

[bangerjim]

I have max gauges for every pistol cal I load for. Much easier than taking your guns apart and messing with them that way. Those gauges are about $20 each and well worth it.

Saves me lots of time and embarrassment at the range by not having chambering problems!

RCBS and Wilson make them.

banger

[Victor N TN]

Saves me lots of time and embarrassment at the range by not having chambering problems!


banger

http://www.sheridanengineering.com/index-2.htm# Look these people up. I have several of their rifle, "slotted" gauges.

It doesn't take many Ooops by big cartridges to turn a good score into a **** score. Rifles do it too.

Stay warm.

[bangerjim]

Thanks. Had not seen those for "long boys".

banger

[Drew P]

Yes the Sheridan gauge is an actual chamber dimensions unlike the regular gauges which can fail to show problems in different areas. I chose to get a non slotted one for my 300aac and regret it but it was a little cheaper. Still the nicest one I have by far. I also have Dillon and Wilson models that I use, but would like to replace with Sheridan some day when I run out of other **** to buy.

[scottfire1957]

Simply, because all .45 acp rounds are loaded for the auto pistol. The revolver shoots those.
Loads for the revolver are no different than loads for the auto. The revolver is secondary to the auto.

Load your revolver with the crimp of your choice. If you roll crimp, seperate those from your auto rounds.

Reading on the .45 auto revolver would answer this question.

[Victor N TN]

Over the past few months (2 years) I have been able to get the gauges for .223, .308, 30-06 and 45 acp. All these I have gotten are the slotted type.

I think they are good people making good products... in the USA.

[Artful]

Lyman has an offering I have been eyeing
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[Scharfschuetze]

This is more theoretical discussion because I'll probably use -p hand loads exclusively but just seems curious because people seem to require a heavy roll crimp on other loads to prevent this boolit walking.

The 45 ACP is not a high pressure round so it's not as prone to this as say a heavy 44 Magnum or 454 Casull Magnum. Like anything though, pay attention to the details and the big picture will take care of itself.


Also, regarding bell, switched to a .452 powder expander for the Hornady recently so the problem, if it exists, should be made worse by that.

As you surmise, less tension on your boolit in a revolver cartridge will generally require a stronger crimp to compensate for it.

[Victor N TN]

Lyman has an offering I have been eyeing
http://www.lymanproducts.com/lyman/case-prep/ammochecker.php

And made in China.

[Artful]

And made in China.
Did you see one in person? or do you have a link?

[Victor N TN]

Did you see one in person? or do you have a link?

Call Lyman and ask them. The man I spoke to last year said all their equipment was imported now.