Smith29 + Lee #168 240/430 mold

[franklinfx]

Hello everyone! First post… I'm sure this isn't the first time someone's asked something like this but I'm hoping you all can help me..I just started casting my own bullets I have the Lee six cavity #168 240swc mold. I cast about 500 of these from pretty soft lead ..yes I know you're supposed to add a hardening element but I was only using 8.5gr of unique giving me about 900 FPS so I thought it be OK … Long story short bullets are all over the paper almost like a shotgun blast.. key holes everywhere ..some low, some high ..I'm thinking they are too undersized..barrel is leaded up very badly … would gas checks possibly remedy this? if not in what direction should I start? Thanks in advance

[dubber123]

We need to know what the bore slugs to and the cylinder throats as well. If the throats are smaller than the bore, that is likely your problem. What are you using for lube? You can shoot soft lead quite fast if the fit is right and you use decent lube.

[runfiverun]

your gonna have to lengthen your story.
more information is needed.
what size are your boolits?
is the mold a gas check mold?
what do your cylinder throats measure?
where does the leading start?
is it only under the frame?
does it just start there?
etc...

[runfiverun]

ahh and welcome aboard.
you are about to learn more about a revolver than you probably wanted to know.

[franklinfx]

We need to know what the bore slugs to and the cylinder throats as well. If the throats are smaller than the bore, that is likely your problem. What are you using for lube? You can shoot soft lead quite fast if the fit is right and you use decent lube. I did not use lube im embarrassed to say i ve used no lube on precast bullets in 357 will decent results..what would you suggest if can excuse my ignorance..all I can say about the revolver is it is a S&w29-2 44mag

[franklinfx]

Whole barrel is leaded heavily to the muzzle bullet mold is .430

[Wayne Smith]

No lube, so I assume no sizing, boolits were shot as cast? Have you measured your boolits with a micrometer to verify their size?

[franklinfx]

No lube, so I assume no sizing, boolits were shot as cast? Have you measured your boolits with a micrometer to verify their size? calipers says .431 Im going to try the alox tumble lube should I get the lee sizing die? it says its .429 ??

[Hickok]

If you have an older Model 29, they usually have large diameter cylinder throats, around .433".

[reddog81]

I'd try powder coating over tumble lube. My 29-2 has throats in the .433 range and sizing bullets doesn't seen to have much of an effect.
The terrible accuracy is probably due to the leaded barrel.

[45-70 Chevroner]

You will have to get rid of the leading in the barrel before you start a new shooting session. Any kind of lube will be a big help though. Tumble Lubing works well but since you are using soft lead, I would hold the velocity down to 750 to 800 or less. I would start at 700 and work up a little at a time until you start seeing lead streaks. I would also invest in something to raise the BHN to at least 11 or 12 BHN

[dubber123]

Well, I would suggest you are going to need something for lube. I am not an Alox fan, but it is way better than nothing. At the very least I would measure the cylinder throats, and make sure your boolits were as close to to that size as you can get. It is a slow process, but you can hand apply lube to your boolits if you don't have a lubrisizer, softer lubes make it a lot easier.

I have shot very soft plain based (8-9 Bhn) boolits in excess of 1,300 fps. from a 4" S&W .44 mag with excellent accuracy and no leading, so it sure is possible with everything right.

It is a good idea to clean the bore before you start over, but a properly fitting, properly lubed boolit will clean lead out of a barrel pretty darn quick. Lead sticks to lead well.

[45-70 Chevroner]

Here I go again. Shooting lead to remove lead will not work. Shooting jacketed bullets will not remove lead. It has to be cleaned out. There are a number of ways to get it out, look it up.

[franklinfx]

Well, I would suggest you are going to need something for lube. I am not an Alox fan, but it is way better than nothing. At the very least I would measure the cylinder throats, and make sure your boolits were as close to to that size as you can get. It is a slow process, but you can hand apply lube to your boolits if you don't have a lubrisizer, softer lubes make it a lot easier.

I have shot very soft plain based (8-9 Bhn) boolits in excess of 1,300 fps. from a 4" S&W .44 mag with excellent accuracy and no leading, so it sure is possible with everything right.

It is a good idea to clean the bore before you start over, but a properly fitting, properly lubed boolit will clean lead out of a barrel pretty darn quick. Lead sticks to lead well.
After scrubbing for 20 minutes with wire brush and solvent soaked patches bore is mirror shiney so i loaded 30rounds using some sofened lyman alox lube in the grooves ...bullet can mive in and out of cylinder throats freely calipers show around .432....Ill guess ill see if accuracy improves next range trip..btw what is powder coating bulltets?.....thanks for the info so far

[runfiverun]

there is a whole section here that deals with the coatings.

this boolit/gun combination sounds like it might be a good application for the powder coating.

[Hickok]

157357Franklin, RunRiverRun is right about this being where PCing your boolits would be a good fix. It would add some diameter to the boolits and most likely stop your leading.

Seeing as how you are just starting out in casting, you might try some Lee LLA and tumble lube the boolits also. Quick and easy, doesn't cost hardly anything, and if your boolits are dropping at .432", you should get good results.

In my older Model 29, I can shoot .431" booolits cast from clip on wheelweight metal, but I was booting them with magnum charges, and only got a little leading at the forcing cone.


Get some "Chore-Boy" copper scrubbing pads at the super market, it cleans lead out of a bore nicely. DO NOT USE the stainless steel scrubbers or ANY stainless steel brushes in your bore.

[mdi]

Slow down. I think you're missing some important steps fer shooting lead bullets. First I'd recommend Lyman's Cast bullet Handbook (3rd Edition if you can find one). Read the basics of casting, sizing, and lubing cast bullets. Next you'll need to know some important dimensions of your gun; slug the barrel and cylinder throats (calipers are a good tool, but won't give an accurate measurement of a small ID, and micrometers are better for measuring bullet and slug diameters). Cylinder throats can be slugged just like a barrel and is pretty accurate. Size your bullets to the same diameter as the cylinder throats and a good lube (tumble lube, either liquid alox or 45-45-10 works well) for starters and you'll have a good start on shooting leading free. I used plain old clip on wheel weights for many years before I started worrying about BHN, and mixing alloy which shows me that fit is much more important than BHN (I have fired magnum loads in my 629 with WW alloy bullets and no leading and around 1500 fps with the same alloy, 160 gr SWC, plain based air cooled bullets in my .357 Magnum).

Casting yer own can be very satisfying or very frustrating. I'd suggest starting simple using the basics/tried and true methods for now and when you start getting good shooters you can experiment if you want to (custom alloying, gas checks, quenching, heat treating, home made lubes, etc.)...:wink:

[dubber123]

Here I go again. Shooting lead to remove lead will not work. Shooting jacketed bullets will not remove lead. It has to be cleaned out. There are a number of ways to get it out, look it up.

Yes, it sure does work. I have done it many times. Instead of telling me it doesn't work, give Veral Smith a call and tell him it doesn't work, he is the one who put me onto it. Look it up. :)

[franklinfx]

157357Franklin, RunRiverRun is right about this being where PCing your boolits would be a good fix. It would add some diameter to the boolits and most likely stop your leading.

Seeing as how you are just starting out in casting, you might try some Lee LLA and tumble lube the boolits also. Quick and easy, doesn't cost hardly anything, and if your boolits are dropping at .432", you should get good results.

In my older Model 29, I can shoot .431" booolits cast from clip on wheelweight metal, but I was booting them with magnum charges, and only got a little leading at the forcing cone.


Get some "Chore-Boy" copper scrubbing pads at the super market, it cleans lead out of a bore nicely. DO NOT USE the stainless steel scrubbers or ANY stainless steel brushes in your bore.the bullets look to .430 just they're supposed to the cylinder throats look to be about .432

[franklinfx]

157357Franklin, RunRiverRun is right about this being where PCing your boolits would be a good fix. It would add some diameter to the boolits and most likely stop your leading.

Seeing as how you are just starting out in casting, you might try some Lee LLA and tumble lube the boolits also. Quick and easy, doesn't cost hardly anything, and if your boolits are dropping at .432", you should get good results.

In my older Model 29, I can shoot .431" booolits cast from clip on wheelweight metal, but I was booting them with magnum charges, and only got a little leading at the forcing cone.


Get some "Chore-Boy" copper scrubbing pads at the super market, it cleans lead out of a bore nicely. DO NOT USE the stainless steel scrubbers or ANY stainless steel brushes in your bore.
The bullets look to be about 430 just as they're supposed to be the cylinder throats look to be more like 432

[dubber123]

the bullets look to .430 just they're supposed to the cylinder throats look to be about .432

If your cylinder throats are .432"+, that should be your goal as to size. You can either get a new mold, lap your existing mold, or try "Beagling" your mold. Starting off with a boolit undersized to your cylinder throats by .002" isn't the best of situations, particularly with the lack of lube you started with.

I have several old .44 caliber S&W's and they certainly shoot much better with a boolit that fits the throats properly, but at the very slow velocity you are shooting, I am willing to bet your major leading is due to the lack of lube on your first attempt. For 800 fps. your boolits are certainly not too soft, that is almost impossible to do at that speed. A fatter boolit will help a lot, but see how it does with some lube applied and see if you are happy.

[mdi]

The bullets look to be about 430 just as they're supposed to be the cylinder throats look to be more like 432
According to your "look to be" measurements, the bullets are too small. I would suggest you get some more exacting measurements; close to, about, look to be just aren't accurate enough... Micrometers work quite well on round objects like bullets and slugs...

[dubber123]

The good news is, if your throats are .432"+, I would wager they are larger than the bore. This beats having the throats smaller than the bore, which does happen and really is only overcome by a trip to a decent gunsmith. Size to fit snugly in your cylinder throats, and apply a decent lube to your boolits and you should have no issues with the mild loads you are running.

[franklinfx]

OK making progress! I just came from the range where I put the 30 hand applied lubed loads down the barrel and presto, very little leading. I was also able to get them to hit the paper and even group a little at 20yds which is a huge improvement! unfortunately some are obviously key holeing and past that range are flying off into oblivion, now in even in my very limited knowledge Im going to conclude that my bullets are undersized so where to go from here... I checked out a couple powder coating vids seems simple enough but will this realistically increase bullets diameter?...lapping the mold, difficult?

[GWM]

Or if you can afford it, order a .434" mold from a custom maker. You probably wouldn't regret it :) .

[dubber123]

Well, progress is progress. I am a bit puzzled by the keyholing though, I would not expect that from .430" boolits, I could see not so stellar accuracy, but not keyholing. I may have missed it, but are you shooting a gas checked boolit without gas checks by chance?

[Mal Paso]

Those look like paper tears from an unsupported target rather than keyholes.

Try shooting scrap cardboard or have the target tight against cardboard.

[dubber123]

Those look like paper tears from an unsupported target rather than keyholes.

Try shooting scrap cardboard or have the target tight against cardboard.

That would make a lot more sense, and you may well be right. Wet targets are the worst :)

[44man]

Revolvers are the most finicky things ever built but can be tamed. I sort of steer away from a perfect fit in throats but throats need to be larger then groove for sure. My SBH is approaching 81,000 heavy loads and uncounted light loads for cans and bottles. The 29's I had all shot lights out with groups at 50 yards of 1/2" and the only reason I parted with them was my hand can not get the same hold on the grip so groups move around but still stay tight.
I have no problems with heavy loads but did with the RCBS Keith style with Unique and 231.
I set out to cure the poor groups and tested for weeks by changing the alloy with additions of antimony and tin. Air cooled to water dropped. Each session gave me an increase in accuracy. Bench shooting with a red dot.157630157631
Pictures are hard to see but the left targets in one picture are 25 yards and the right are 50.
Left is 28 BHN and right targets are 30 BHN. Felix lube, boolit is .430" from .4324" throats and .430" groove. Unique and 231 from 7 to 10 gr.
From air cooled to hard I shot better groups at 50 with hard then I could get at 25 with softer. There is a patch showing no lead in the bore.
Not saying you need hard since in 1956 I had to buy factory loads to get brass and boolits were soft at over 1400 fps, not pleasant to shoot but they did shoot OK with no leading and I never got leading with my 429421 with 22 gr of 2400, air cooled WW boolits. I never got real soft to shoot. I never got Alox or coatings to shoot, need real lube. Felix and MML best with LBT Soft Blue and Satan's next. No hard lubes. I never tried PC, no need so far.
Now here is a .430" boolit of my design for deer. Water dropped WW metal, 21.5 gr of 296 and a Fed 150 primer. It weighs 330 gr. I shot this at 200 yards with an Ultra Dot. 157632
Stop using magnum primers for any powder in the .44. They do you no favors.
You will never know how great a 29 can be by following all in print. Lyman books teach but are not going to make things better.
When you get things right you can do this. 157634 50 yards with a .500 JRH in a BFR revolver. 3 shots working loads. I also have a shotgun shell centered at 100 yards with this caliber. Not a .44 but same loading procedures. Search my posts.
You should have one hole at 25 yards.

[mdi]

Unless you get good info., AKA real dimensions, everything is a WAG. One major benefit from casting/reloading is you get to learn a lot more about your guns rather than just putting some generic factory ammo through it, if you choose to...

[44man]

Yes, knowledge is gained by failure. Step outside the box. Never repeat a mistake because it was printed by a gunzine.

[W.R.Buchanan]

OK guys I read all of this thread and whereas all the information is good, it is also way above where this guy is at in the learning curve.

First: The mould he is using was the first mould I ever cast a boolit with,,, for my Model 29 in 1976 ... I melted the lead (fishing weights of unknown origin) on the stove in a little pot and poured them with a Lyman Ladle. I sized them to .429 cuz that's what Jacketed Bullets were, and lubed with the pan of melted Alox and cut them out with the Cookie Cutter. I still have all this stuff.

But I also knew that I needed a Gas Check, because that's what the guy at the gun shop told me. Believe me he was no expert either.

This boolit loaded over 24 gr of H110 would put 6 shots inside 1.5" at 25 yards with boring regularity! Never any leading. We shot weekly at the Ventura Police Pistol Range.

This Boolit with no Gas Check would lead the bore instantly! My first attempts at "'Light Loads" with Bullseye were less than satisfying. I won't tell you how I removed the lead, but lets just say it was done every 5 shots and,,,"quickly."

There was nothing magic about this combination. I knew nothing about Throat Diameters and Boolit Sizing beyond what was above. I did learn quickly as I bought a copy of Lymans Cast Bullet Handbook 1st Edition and read it several times. I still didn't grasp many of the fine points in that book until about 10 years ago,,,(and probably still don't) but I always got acceptable accuracy from my Cast Boolit Reloads. Really everything you need to know is in that book somewhere, putting it all into context to solve your problems takes a while. In my case 40 years, and still working!

If this guy was simply to lube his boolits and install gas checks his results would change dramatically.

Why don't we start there, instead of overwhelming the guy with OUR technical knowledge. There is a Learning Curve for everything, and starting half way up it is not the best way to approach the subject. Starting with the basics and learning them in order is where it's at. You have to walk before you can run. Just remember that when you're trying to teach somebody,,, you'll have better results.

I do think the Copper Brillo Pads are a good idea though. :mrgreen:

Randy

[dubber123]

Randy, someone may have asked about the lack of gas checks somewhere around post #26 :) I agree, this one shouldn't be too hard to whip. I am assuming his approx. .432" throat measurement is reasonably accurate, and I consider that good. I don't think I have ever heard of a S&W with a bore that big, so he is ahead of the game there, throats larger than bore.

[mdi]

Well, I consider fitting the lead bullet to the gun is basic Cast Bullet Reloading 101.

[44man]

I have studied the Keith forever. Look at the nose! Drop the boolit in the muzzle, does the nose touch? Nope, so you have just the shoulder to guide in the cone and if it does not hit perfectly centered, that shoulder will wipe off instead of clocking the cylinder. It is why my harder boolits worked best, they resisted shoulder wipe better.
Then soft boolits will get sized when you seat ruining case tension along with now having a smaller boolit. They also slump out of shape, some so bad the GG's will be gone while still in the cylinder. Lube and lead out the gap.
You get skid so a GC can help if it stops the skid so gas can't leak. They can fail too and they will not scrape lead out, they just run it over.
Never shoot jacketed to clean lead, they can run it over and ruin the bore. If you shoot more lead slow, it can push out a lot of lead but not all.
If you want to shoot pure lead, use BP.