PDA

View Full Version : Apolgies in advance--need advice and wisdom on the art of lubing



TexasJeff
04-20-2008, 09:10 AM
First off, please accept my apologies for this, but I used the search engine and found bits and pieces of what I'm wondering about--but nothing really comprehensive and inclusive.

I'm new to casting. First boolits I cast were .358 TL 158SWC and .358 148WC. Using Lee moulds, which I'm happy with, and using the Lee sizer/lube set up, which I'm extremely pleased with. It is simplicity personified.

In the near future, very near, I will be casting for 45 ACP (ball and SWC), 9mm and .380 ACP (.356 as I got through slugging all the barrels to confirm), and 44 special and magnum.

I'm looking at lube/sizers and have pretty much settled on the RCBS Lubamatic based upon having pulled the handle on Lymans, the RCBS and a Star. The Star is the cadillac, no doubt about it and it is currently number two in consideration, BUT . . . here's what I'm wondering.

• Is there a difference (in handgun OR long gun) in accuracy based upon whether you tumble-lube or run your boolits through a sizer/luber?

I got outstanding accuracy with my cast .38 boolits--the lube/size process was with Lee LA and the Lee sizer. Will a mounted size/luber do any better or any worse?

• I've read in many places where "hard lube is for shipping and storing, tumble lube is for shooting." I have exactly zero opinion on that--even moreso now that I've entered the boolit-casting world and have attained good results with tumble lube boolits (my own) as well as "hard-lube" boolits (a good caster I know and trust).

* Is speed the primary advantage of a mounted lube/sizer setup? With the LLA, you do have to wait for the lube to "dry" or set up before sizing--and then sometimes I'll tumble lube then one more time before boxing them up.

• Other than applying the lube, will an RCBS or Star or Lyman do anything to the bullet that the Lee sizing die will not?

• Is one type of set up better than the other for certain calibers or applications?/

Thanks for the info, and hopefully I can put it all together in one inclusive, comprehensive package and it will give me a lot to think about.

Jeff

HeavyMetal
04-20-2008, 11:50 AM
Lots of questions to answer here, bear with me if I miss one.
First The Lee push through is the same basic idea as the Star your just going the oppisite direction! Nose first ( nose sizing) is the most accurate way to size boolits, rifle or pistol!

From a marketing stand point The Lee is certainly the least cash outlay. Problem is you are limited to use a liquid lube such as LLA. LLA is not a bad lube but I feel it's a bit limited.

Shooting as cast, if the boolits fit the gun, is more accurate than sizing. The down side of this is it's very much suited to the one gun senerio! Sizing come into play when your feeding a dozen or more guns in the same caliber.

At that point you don't want to play with different molds you want to load ammo everyone can use without a "glitch"! This is when a lube sizer save time, and with the right sizer, lots of it!

50-50 alox was the "original" boolit lube and is passable in most applications. However it is dirty and makes a ton of smoke!

The hard lubes, you can see a bunch of formulas on the "stickies" posting, were designed to reduce that issue. The fact that they made storage and transport easier was an extra!

So heres the deal if your only loading for one or two guns and have all the time in the world Lee's sizer and LLA will be great.

If you have a bunch of guns and want to shoot then instead of camping in front of a bench dealing with drying LLA buy a Star use a lube like the old Lithi-Bee formula, it's soft, and spend a lot more time shooting than sizing!

Set your Star up to Nose size and I honestly don't think you'll be able to see a difference if your shooting production rifle or pistol. Custom guns can do better and usually require custom loading technique's!

runfiverun
04-20-2008, 11:55 AM
i only use the star lubers you can use softer lubes in them, i have and still use hard lubes
there is nothing wrong with the lyman ,lee , rcbs . way
just the star is much faster especially with the add on's.

when you seat g/c's you drop it in the size die with g/c on and push through and lube.
all at once.

what i would suggest is that you pick a system and use it you will figure out
what you need, and how to make it work.

mooman76
04-20-2008, 01:09 PM
I agree with everything said here even though I have no experience or even seen a star luber or Lyman for that matter but have heard quite abit on them. I started out with LLA and it works well and like Heavymetal said I'd use that if you aren't shooting allot of bullets. I moved up to a 450 Lyman used but it looked new and I still use LLA at times but lately I have been playing with Johnsons paste wax. For the most part I believe it works as good as LLA and is less messy and shouldn't smoke as much as LLA.
Any particular caliber isn't suited or limited to one particular lube. While one person may not have luck with a certain lube is some calibers the next guy does. Every gun and caliber and bullet is different and there are too many variables to limit one to the other.
One thing I'll say about the lube sizers they are limited to the sizers you get. Yes you can have a custom made one but that can get expensive and some bullets shoot just as good as cast and don't need sizing. So in this case if you have a gun that likes a oversized bullet it might be best to use a lube you can use without sizing.

Junior1942
04-20-2008, 01:32 PM
I have a 450 luber-sizer and a dozen or so dies. When I discovered LLA and Lee push-through dies, I stopped using the 450. A few months back I removed it from my bench. And, no, it isn't for sale. One of the great advantages of Lee size dies is being able to easily ream them out .001" or .002".

MT Gianni
04-20-2008, 04:16 PM
I think that LLA is slightly faster than sizing and lubing. I get better groups with FWFL, a soft lube, than I do with either LLA or hard lubes. Gianni

Pavogrande
04-20-2008, 04:47 PM
TJ - The disadvantage to the star is, changing from one bullet to another (of the same diameter) requires changes to the lube holes in the die. This is rather a bit of bother. The Star dies are rather expensive to have one set up for each bullet, they also require different nose punches, also expensive. No question the star is a great unit though. Personally I would stick with the Lee untill it no longer meets your needs. My two cents.

BruceB
04-20-2008, 06:13 PM
Over the years during which I've followed the hobby of bullet-casting on the Internet, it's plain that the Lyman lube-sizers get faint respect. Few folks ever seem to speak up in their favor.

Well, I for one DO like and enjoy the Lymans. I WORE OUT a #45 when I first began casting in the mid-'60s. Those were our Bullseye-competition days, and with two active shooters that little machine processed hundreds of thousands of .38s, plus quite a few .45s to boot. I now have three 450s, and am quite content with all of them. Having more than one allows the use of different lubes without the need for cleaning out a machine to change the recipe.

Lyman sizing dies are smoother and more-versatile than RCBS dies, due to the lube-hole arrangement, although the RCBS ones aren't bad. Either brand is much less-expensive than the Star dies.

The Star is a fine device for pure production, but for a caster using a variety of moulds and diameters, adjustments and changes are a PAIN.

I'm currently the owner of about seventy moulds and a couple of dozen sizing dies. Trying to set up a Star for all the various combinations and permutations, including blocking or clearing the needed die holes every time a different bullet design is being sized/lubed, is simply impractical. The Star holds absolutely no appeal for me, even though I'm a hopeless case when it comes to "newer, better, more-expensive".

Incidentally, the 50/50 lube is a loooong way from being "the original lube", arriving as it did in the '70s from research done by Colonel Harrison of the NRA. It's still good stuff. Of course, the '70s are probably ancient pre-history to the less-grizzled segments of our group.....

The fine old K-I-S-S principle works when lube-sizing bullets. One of my major concerns in this hobby is efficient production, and if the Lyman machines can satisfy me, they are pretty decent in that category. Again, if you want to process a LOT of bullets in a single design, the Star shines. For someone who uses many designs and diameters, it doesn't.

The Lee sizers are a low-cost stop-gap, in my experience. I've used them in a few applications, and I dislike the concept. Nose-first sizing is nice, but the Lee system has limitations that I'm not prepared to tolerate. Just a matter of opinion, because I know there are plenty of casters who DO like the method.

TexasJeff
04-20-2008, 07:52 PM
Thanks for the great feedback--I'm definitely getting an education.


I think that LLA is slightly faster than sizing and lubing. I get better groups with FWFL, a soft lube, than I do with either LLA or hard lubes. Gianni

Okay, as I understand, there is basically ONLY ONE liquid alox you can use for tumble lubing, right?

I'm one who likes to incessantly tinker. I have a notebook of my pet loads and keep plenty on hand, but I'm always tinkering with new reloads seeing if I can find or produce something better.

From my very first casting session, I began keeping detailed notes about my alloy mix, temperature, did I air-cool or water drop the boolits, did I tumble-lube, size, then lube again or just lube and size and load, etc. Kept these notes to compare with my notecard-targets.

I've been reading, with HUGE interest, all the lube recipes. Fortunately, I have a nice stand-alone workshop to stink up playing Mr. Chemist with johnson paste wax and STP motor oil. That keeps the wife happy.

So what is the FWFL lube you refer to?

I'm putting some money in the mail to Bullshop for Bullplate and a few sticks of his Speed Green, but will still have the urge to try various concoctions.

But, there is no concoction for tumble lube, is there?


Again, if you want to process a LOT of bullets in a single design, the Star shines. For someone who uses many designs and diameters, it doesn't.

The Lee sizers are a low-cost stop-gap, in my experience. I've used them in a few applications, and I dislike the concept. Nose-first sizing is nice, but the Lee system has limitations that I'm not prepared to tolerate. Just a matter of opinion, because I know there are plenty of casters who DO like the method.

Bruce, I fall in the latter--I want to use and experiment with a number of different designs and moulds. Having to reconfigure, almost from the ground up, every time I changed calibers would drive me crazy.

Out of curiosity, what are the lmitations you experience with the Lee sizing method? Being brand new to this, stuff like this is exactly what I'm striving to learn and take in.

And again, all the advice and knowledge is hugely appreciated.

Jeff

MT Gianni
04-20-2008, 08:06 PM
FWFL stands for Felix World Famous Lube, see the sticky for lube receipes. I find caliber and bullet punch swaping with a LY 450 takes less than a minute and try to do it so I just swap nose punches staying with one caliber until it is done. If you are an experimenter I predict frustration with sticking with just LLA. In the past others have made liquid alox, I think Lar45 sells it by the quart for a lot cheaper than Lee. Check his link at the bottom of the page. Gianni

mooman76
04-20-2008, 09:21 PM
The LLA is cheap and lsts a long time. I can see much sence in trying to get something cheaper unless you really use allot or just like the pride of making it yourself. Lyman makes a alox lube and there is Johnsons Paste wax that allot seem to like and I am starting to become one of them. Looks better and is less messy once finished. A down side on the LLA is it gets on everything. In your dies, bullet boxes and on the feed ramp of auto weapons but like said everything has it's down side.

Urny
04-20-2008, 09:43 PM
You can eliminate a lot of the mess with LLA by dusting the boolits with powdered mica after the lube has had overnight to set. Gives the boolits a nice sparkley finish and keeps your dies lube free. It will also help polish the inside finish of the sizing die, though to a very minor extent.