450/400 Nitro Load Data?

[JSimpson65]

Hello All,

I have an itch to buy a Ruger #1 in 450/400 Nitro 3", and have been having a hard time finding reloading data. Most of what I've found are loads with 400gr bullets at 2100+fps, a little more than I'm looking for. I've done a search here and turned up a few suggestions, but not a lot. I did email Western Powders for their load data for AA5744 which I have a bunch of, and they did send to me today. Anyone have any other favorite loads? I have a 411-230gr LFN mold from NOE a few years back that I would like to try but haven't seen much in the way of reduced loads (looking for 1500-1800fps range). Search also turned up a reference to Hornady #9 manual for load data - can anyone who has this manual confirm what data they have? I have Hornady #7 but it does not have 450/400 NE data.

My use would probably mostly be punching holes in paper, but I would love to take a pig or three with this round also.

[elk hunter]

If it were me I'd look at 405 Winchester data. Similar bore and case size and the 405 uses 300 grain bullets. You'll probably not find any data for 230 grain bullets for either caliber.

[Golfswithwolves]

Hornady #8 and #9 both have a page of data for this cartridge.

[JSimpson65]

Hornady #8 and #9 both have a page of data for this cartridge.

Looks like I'll be getting an updated Hornady manual. Western did send AA5744 loads for a 230gr bullet, but starting at 2025fps which is a little faster than I was looking for.

Thanks again for the info.

[Blackwater]

I believe one of the old Gun Digests may have had a good article on reloading that one, and maybe others as well. My memory that far back isn't very trustworthy, but I do at least believe I saw one once. Most of my old Gun Digests were burned by my MIL while I was away in the Navy. If I still had them, I'd look it up for you and send you a copy. Maybe someone here will see it who still has a copy, and do likewise? That's a caliber I've long wished for, but have never found a use for. I envy you. Good to see folks still see the worth and value in those old guns and calibers. I'd also try a google search for data also. It's out there. it's just not commonly encountered.

[Blackwater]

Had an afterthought, and here's some data for you:

http://www.accuratereloading.com/450400.html

[MarkP]

I have a 416 wildcat the case capacity is 71 gr of H2O. A full case of Trailboss pushes a 315 gr to 1,375 and pushes a 400 gr to 1,250 fps. I recommend starting with Trailboss of fast burning powder. 14 gr of RedDot in a 458 Win Mag with a 405 gr boolit yields 1,350.

[AbitNutz]

I have that exact rifle....Ruger No.1 Tropical in 450/400. I use 5744 for most low energy loads. I also use closed cell foam backer rod as filler, which is what Kynoch recommends....it works really well. This rifle will kill on one end and cripple on the other. Recoil is not insignificant with factory ammo...but my god is it FUN!!

The other weird thing is that this rifle with factory ammo is that it's stupid accurate. With open sights I can cloverleaf those big holes at 50 yards. Also, you don't need a spotting scope to see the holes.

Not that I have plans to do it but mounting a scope on it I bet would really let it group at 100 yards...at least until it fragged the scope.

[Larry Gibson]

Cast bullet data for the 40-65 is a good reference for PB'd cast bullet start loads for the 450/400.

Larry Gibson

[JSimpson65]

Thanks all for the information. Below is the load data from Western on AA5744. Any thoughts on reducing below their minimum? I have the 230gr LFN (both GC and PB) and would like to get down around 1600-1800fps

Bullet weight: 210 grains.
Low range load: 44.0 grains (ca 2100 Fps)
Maximum load: 55.0 grains (ca 2580 Fps).
Bullet weight: 225-230 grains.
Low range load: 48.0 grains (ca 2025 Fps)
Maximum load: 59.0 grains (ca 2500 Fps).
Bullet weight: 250-265 grains.
Low load: 40.0 grains (ca 1900 Fps)
Maximum load: 48.0 grains (ca 2000 Fps)
Bullet weight: 300 grains.
Low load: 36.0 grains (ca 1700 Fps)
Maximum load: 44.5 grains (ca 1850 Fps)
Bullet weight: 325 grains.
Low load: 36.0 grains (ca 1600 Fps)
Maximum load: 44.5 grains (ca 1775 Fps)
Bullet weight: 350 grains.
Low load: 33.0 grains (ca 1500 Fps)
Maximum load: 44.0 grains (ca 1700 Fps)
Bullet weight: 400 grains.
Low load: 30.0 grains (ca 1350 Fps)
Maximum load: 40.0 grains (ca 1625 Fps)

[JSimpson65]

Cast bullet data for the 40-65 is a good reference for PB'd cast bullet start loads for the 450/400.

Larry Gibson

Thanks. Lyman 49th 40-65 data shows 385gr w/ AA5744 starting at 18.0 (1135fps) to 21.0 (1274fps). Looks like I could probably reduce Western's 450/400 starting load of 48.0 for a 230gr quite a bit. Similarly, 405 Winchester shows a starting load w/ 288gr of 29.5 (1616fps).

[Geraldo]

I just got a 450/400 and found this thread while looking for data. Just wondering if anyone has more recent experience or data.

[Abert Rim]

Geraldo, I received slightly updated 5744 data from Hodgdon a couple of weeks ago and reported it here:

https://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?451042-AA-5744-data-for-450-400-3-inch-(400-Jeffery)

[LIMPINGJ]

.450/.400 BPE and NE Data

From: Solving Problems in English, K. Waters, Handloader's Digest, 6th Ed.

"The 450/400-2 ⅜" B.P.E. (Black Powder Express)

Years ago I cobbled up ammunition in this caliber for a nice little Alex Henry single-shot with right-side hammer. I recall that I used to thin the rims of .348 Winchester cases (removing brass from the front side only), then full-length resize and fire-form. The case which resulted was 1/10" short, but seating bullets farther out took care of that and I wasn't dependent on any imported components.

With a muzzle velocity considerably under 2000 fps, I was able to use 260-gr. plain base cast bullets sized .406" - .407", from a mould originally intended for the .40-65 and .40-82 Winchesters. This can still be done to produce darn fine deer loads at short range."

450/400-2 ⅜" B.P.E. - 260 cast lead - 35.0 - IMR3031 - Win. 120 primer

The 450/400-3¼" B.P.E.

Taking the same bullets as the preceding 2 ⅜" case, new empty unprimed Kynoch cases using the No. 172 Berdan primer are still available (1972) from Oregon Ammunition Service. There is simply no alternative, much as we'd like to use Boxer primers.

During the years when the Connecticut Cartridge Co. was making bullets for old American calibers, I used to load their 260-gr., .406" jacketed soft points, with large exposed lead noses, in a 450/400 Purdey hammerless double rifle, but with that source of supply closed off, dependence must be placed on hard cast 260-gr. slugs from Lyman mould #403169, and sized .406" - .407". If not driven too fast, these will do a job on anything up to and including moose. "

450/400-3¼" B.P.E. - 260 cast lead - 42.0 - Re 7 - Berdan primer

From: Powder Keg, R. Seyfreid, Handloader #230, August 2004

"Q: I am trying to get loading data for the .450-400 3-inch Nitro. I am shooting both cast bullets and 400-grain Woodleigh bullets in Bertram cases. I also need to know about the Dacron filler. Do I need it in the .400?"

A: There are two variations of the .450-.400 x 3-inch cartridge. The "trade" model had a thin (.040-inch) rim and normally used 60 grains of cordite with a 400-grain bullet. Jeffrey used a thick rim and only 55 grains of cordite. Either one likes the 1.19 multiplier of Reloder 15, with a Federal 215 primer as a duplicate to the original full-power loads. That is to say, 1.19 times the 55- or 60-grain cordite charge. Normally, you do not need Dacron in the .400s. However, if you experience any form of hangfire (this will probably be as minute as your thinking you can hear the hammer hit before ignition), add 3 grains of standard polyester pillow stuffing over the powder. This load is compatible with the Woodleigh softpoint bullet. If you use their solids, reduce the powder charge 2 grains.

For cast bullet shooting in the .400s, we discover a wonderful phenomena in cordite double rifles. Against all conventional wisdom, they will usually regulate perfectly with a very reduced load, by simply pretending they were black-powder rifles. Now we turn to the nitro-for-black-powder formula. The 3-inch case was not a black-powder round, but its 3¼-inch older brother was. It normally used 100 to 110 grains of black and 230- to 260-grain bullets. Hodgdon 4198 is the powder of choice. The formula is now 40 percent of the black powder weight.

Load with a standard Large Rifle (not magnum) primer and begin with 42 grains of 4198. The nitro-for-black loads must use Dacron; 10 grains will be correct, over the powder. Add a hard 230- to 260-grain, .41 Magnum pistol bullet and you will have a nice, friendly deer load. Most rifles regulate perfectly, although it is often necessary to use the 200-yard sight leaf to get correct elevation at 100 yards."

Note: In Miniature Black Powder Express Cartridges, Handloader #225, Seyfried states the Dacron must fill the case and not be tamped down on the powder as a wad.

From: Reloading the Nitro Express, R. Seyfreid, Handloader #202, December 1999

"Unlike the earlier black-powder rifles, most nitro rifles will have the service load stamped on the barrel flats as part of the proof marks. This usually specifies a maximum load of cordite and bullet weight. One usually encounters something like "cordite 70-bullet 480 max."

"Slug the bores and make chamber casts before you buy components. Finally be sure you are indeed working with a "full-cordite" rifle. Many unknowing or unscrupulous sellers call every British express rifle a "Nitro Express". If the barrels do not show the cordite charge in the proof marks, they are probably made for black powder."

"The correct powder for the nitros is also surprisingly simple. Most who are serious reloaders for the nitros have distilled the selection to one powder: Alliant Reloder 15. You will see and hear references to other powders; IMR-3031 and some of the very slow ones like 4831 have been used. In my experience IMR-3031 has a shrewish temperament in the big cases, demonstrating rapid pressure rises. The slow powders have blown the sides out of more than one set of fine double barrels. No one has a precise answer to "why?". Because it has happened, I treat the slow powders like the standard medical formula, "Doctor, it hurts when I do this." Reply: "Do not do this!"

"Returning to our chosen fuel, RL-15, its use and perfection was invented by none less than Federal Cartridge for their own .470 Nitro cartridges. It is a mild-mannered, delightful powder that re-creates original ballistics, right across the spectrum from .450-400 to .600, using the same conversion formula. That is, multiply the original cordite charge by 1.19 to substitute RL-15. In almost every instance, caliber and rifle, the velocity, with the correct Woodleigh bullet, will be right in the Kynoch window. (It is a good idea to begin two grains below the calculated charge, just to be on the safe side.)"

"The one compromise with RL-15 is that it takes up less space in the cavernous cases than did the original spaghetti-like cordite. To obtain perfectly crisp ignition, one must add a small ball of Dacron (polyester) fiber filler. Most .40- and .45-caliber rounds want four or five grains, while the .470 and .500 use six or seven grains and the .577 and .600 take seven or eight. Loads without the filler can demonstrate minute, but disconcerting, hangfires. Those with fillers are crisp with uncannily uniform velocities."

.450/.400-3 inch - 60 grs. Cordite - 400-gr. bullet - 2125 fps - 71.4 grs. RL-15
.450/400-3¼ inch - 60 grs. Cordite - 400-gr. bullet - 2150 fps - 71.4 grs. RL-15

I don't know where you could find any data for reduced cast loads for the .450/.400 - 3". The closest I could come to the caliber and case capacity was the .40-110 Winchester Express which used a 0.403" bullet and had a case capacity of 8.12cc's. The .450/.400-3 inch has a case capacity somewhere around 7.5cc. I say "around" because The Handloader's Manual of Cartridge Conversions has the same dimensions for both the .450/400 Magnum Nitro Express (whatever that is) and the .450/.400 - 3.25" Magnum Nitro Express. Both are listed as having a case capacity of 8.04cc's. It seems most of the difference in length is in the neck, so I made some rough calculations from C.I.P. drawings. Of course, smokeless data for the .40-110 is probably just as hard to find. Old Ideal catalogs might have some data.

[Abert Rim]

Thanks LimpingJ. Good old Ross Seyfried to the rescue. Guess I need to hunt for some dacron to use on top of the Re 15.

[15meter]

Thanks LimpingJ. Good old Ross Seyfried to the rescue. Guess I need to hunt for some dacron to use on top of the Re 15.

And if you haven't used fillers, there is enough here to get your head spinning.

https://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?109280-The-proper-use-of-fillers/page7

I don't use them, all of what I load that could be helped with fillers are for a buddy's stable of fine old english rifles. Cheapest cost as much as my last truck. A little delayed ignition while plinking as opposed to the very slight chance of ringing a chamber. I'll go with delayed ignition.

Cheaper then divorce when I have to (try) to explain to the wife why I need to spend $20,000 on a replacement rifle for a buddy.

Explaining a girlfriend would be easier.

[TurnipEaterDown]

Since this was a revived thread, I think the original request is likely not key at this point, so I will note that the A-Square manual "Any Shot You Want" has .450/400 3 inch loads, as well as many other unusual cartridges. Probably can find the manual used. I found it to be a wealth of information.

[15meter]

https://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?450351-Finding-the-Trail-Boss-loads-in-the-450-400-3-inch-NE

And a little cross pollination of vintage threads.