Last Altar Call to Lyman

[PBSmith]

From what I've been reading in many different posts on this forum, Lyman moulds in recent times are a krap shoot at best, a lost bloody cause if you don't want hassles. Undersize seems to be the most common complaint. This disappoints me because in past decades I had some great moulds from that company and enjoyed casting very good bullets with them, even when I didn't know what I was doing.

On the list of bullets that I would like to cast are at least four or five Lyman designs, ranging from 311 rifle to 35 rifle and .38/.357 revolver. Is there any hope or trick for getting a new Lyman mould of correct dimensions and decent manufacture, or should I forget it and tell one of the smaller, custom mould-makers what I want? At least one member here has advised to do so.

I don't mind paying the Lyman price for a mould if it casts what it's supposed to cast, but definitely don't want to mess with multiple returns to the factory, lapping, beagle moves, or other desperation/remedial work.

The only hope I can imagine would be buying the mould from a reputable retailer/supplier who is willing to go to bat for the customer and hold Lyman to the fiery furnace if Orange can't provide a spec-correct mould. Does anyone know of such a supplier?

[leadhead]

Not worth the hassle...Your farther ahead to buy from a custom shop as they only
cost a few dollars more, and you can order any size you want with confidence.
Denny

[Jack Stanley]

Some folks still have a lot of confidence in them but I am not one of them . Not when there are makers like LBT and Accurate molds around , I can't remember the last time I had a problem with an RCBS mold either .

Jack

[Larry Gibson]

I wish to politely disagree. I've been hearing of these so called complaints for several years now. I've a standing offer to test any so called "undersize not spec" Lyman mould. If it won't cast "to spec" I offer to buy the mould for what the owner paid for it plus shipping to me. I've tested 15 of them and all cast 'to spec" and the owners then wanted them back. I've not bought a single Lyman mould.

The problem with all of them was the "to spec" was the owners/buyer's idea of what the spec was supposed to be. Lyman cuts their moulds to their spec's with #2 alloy being what most are cut for. If you buy a 311299 and want it to cast out at .314 with COWW alloy it ain't going to happen. They will cast out at .312 +/- with #2 alloy though. The "spec" is .311 because that's what Lyman expects the minimal size cast with #2 alloy to be. If you want a 314299 that casts .316 on the bands and .304 on the nose (an exaggeration) then a custom mould from a custom mould maker is probably the best course.

Complaining about Lyman moulds that don't cast to your spec with an alloy the mould isn't cut for is......well, it is.........

I see we are now getting lots of complaints about Lee, RCBS and SAECO moulds not "casting to spec"........how about the buyer "casting to spec"?

Now I know someone will come on this thread and say I had a 314299 and it only cast .312 on the bands and I was using #2 alloy or some such.......well proper casting technique has something to do with that if indeed that's what it did. There are different casting techniques that are peculiar to some alloys, bullet designs and bullet weights. One size does not fit all. Be glad to help with that but please be agreeable to sending me the Lyman mould to test.....my offer is still open.

Larry Gibson

[Guesser]

My experience runs the same vein as Larry Gibson. I had to vary my alloy and temperatures but every one of my new Lymans have come around once I learned the idiosyncrasy of the particular mold. I bought them from people that said they were defective from the factory.

[shooter93]

A good many of us cast with Lyman and RCBS molds for a VERY long time before we had so many custom makers show up and Larry and Guesser are right. At times they may not have cast what we wanted it was a rare case that they did not cast what they were spec'd at and that holds true today I believe.....yes....there are always exceptions. As we muddled our way through learning casting....this place wasn't here and little information was out there as many older people here can attest....we thought of ways to increase diameters such as lapping or the heat tape method. The difference now is we can order pretty much anything we want and get it soon which could change at anytime. Lyman, RCBS etc. make molds in huge quantities and not a custom product and there is a place for them and I hope they will always be around.

[Scharfschuetze]

I wish to politely disagree.


A good many of us cast with Lyman and RCBS molds for a VERY long time before we had so many custom makers show up and Larry and Guesser are right.

+ One on Larry's and Shooter93's comments. While I have a few of the superlative NOE molds, most of my molds are workaday RCBS or Lyman molds. Most of them have been doing yeoman duty for 40 some years. Taken care of they produce quality projectiles year after year after year.

So no complaints from me about them. Game animals, varmints and targets probably would complain if they still could.

[williamwaco]

I wish to politely disagree. I've been hearing of these so called complaints for several years now. I've a standing offer to test any so called "undersize not spec" Lyman mould. If it won't cast "to spec" I offer to buy the mould for what the owner paid for it plus shipping to me. I've tested 15 of them and all cast 'to spec" and the owners then wanted them back. I've not bought a single Lyman mould.

The problem with all of them was the "to spec" was the owners/buyer's idea of what the spec was supposed to be. Lyman cuts their moulds to their spec's with #2 alloy being what most are cut for. If you buy a 311299 and want it to cast out at .314 with COWW alloy it ain't going to happen. They will cast out at .312 +/- with #2 alloy though. The "spec" is .311 because that's what Lyman expects the minimal size cast with #2 alloy to be. If you want a 314299 that casts .316 on the bands and .304 on the nose (an exaggeration) then a custom mould from a custom mould maker is probably the best course.

Complaining about Lyman moulds that don't cast to your spec with an alloy the mould isn't cut for is......well, it is.........

I see we are now getting lots of complaints about Lee, RCBS and SAECO moulds not "casting to spec"........how about the buyer "casting to spec"?

Now I know someone will come on this thread and say I had a 314299 and it only cast .312 on the bands and I was using #2 alloy or some such.......well proper casting technique has something to do with that if indeed that's what it did. There are different casting techniques that are peculiar to some alloys, bullet designs and bullet weights. One size does not fit all. Be glad to help with that but please be agreeable to sending me the Lyman mould to test.....my offer is still open.

Larry Gibson

Larry,

I wonder about all this "Lyman No2" alloy these new casters are using and getting undersized bullets?

I have never seen Lyman No 2 used by a real bullet caster.
But maybe in time. I have only been doing this for 60 years.

Most people call any alloy that tests BNH 15 ( or thereabouts ) Lyman no 2.

Lyman doesn't even list it in their catalog any more. At least I can't find it by searching the latest PDF.
I read an article about it in one of the Lyman cast bullet handbooks a few years ago in which Lyman stated they couldn't even buy it anymore.
They said every batch they bought was different, close but not exact. They attributed that to the use of reclaimed metals in the mix.

The only source I can find is Rotometals at about 3.00 per pound. I seriously doubt that most new casters ever heard of Rotometals and doubt even stronger that they are paying 3.00 for alloy when they can get it delivered to their front porch for less than half that.

I know there are a few members of this group who have actually ordered from Rotometals. I am one of them. Even fewer who have mixed their own batch of Lyman no 2. I am not one of them, but I expect Larry has done both.

All my Lyman molds, even the new ones, cast .001 to .002 over my sizing diameter.

Anyway, I find that most equipment problems are caused by "Operator Error"

[bedbugbilly]

I agree with Larry Gibson and the others . . .

This is sort of like the old carpenter saying . . . "Gee . . I cut it twice and it's still too short!". Well . . . who's at fault . . . the carpenter who did the work or God who grew the tree that the board came from?

I have accumulated quite a few molds over the last 50 years of many different makes and also have several somewhat new Lymans. I'm a "low tech caster" - I have two 10# pots that I use over a propane hotplate and a bottom pour ladle - no thermometer . . . nothing else. One pot is for pure lead (as pure as I can get) for my muzzleloaders . . . the other is for "range lead" of unknown make-up as I usually buy it in batches from members here. I know from 50 some odd years of casting that a mold will drop in a variety of dimensions based on what is poured in it. I don't hunt anymore and I don't shoot competition but what I do works plenty well for the shooting I do. If they fall the right size and I can use them "as cast" . . . I do . . . if oversize . . . that's what they make sizers for. It is very rare that I ever get a boolit that is undersize . . . with the exception of an old Lyman that I once had that I discovered had a nice "U" on it to denote that the cavity was undersize . . . probably the result of being cut with a cherry that was in need of replacement.

Lee molds? I have used a number over the years and again . . . size of boolit depends on what's pour in 'em. The only Lee I had a problem with was a new one that should have never left the factory - it had misaligned cavities.

As mentioned though . . . for a few dollars more over the price of a new Lyman there are number of mold makers that will make you a mold with the size cavity you want. Just remember though . . . say you order a .360 mold instead of a .358 mold . . . it's still going to drop different sizes if you are feeding it different alloys.

[Larry Gibson]

Williamwaco

Lyman has listed 2 different formula's to make their #2 alloy in their older cast bullet reloading manuals and particularly in the #3 and #$ Cast Bullet Handbooks. It's found on page 57 of my #3 and page 297 in the #4 CBH. I prefer to use the formula that uses linotype as I still have a quantity of it. Using the formula has produced very consistent results for me for 45 years+. In the #4 CBH there is a 3rd formula on page 297 also. All 3 formulas should produce a BHN of 15 (+/-) but the manual states; "Same BHN as #2 but different composition. That leads to the point of using the BHN as a measurement of composition is not a good thing to do. The BHN measures the hardness only, not the composition. I've been casting my own bullets since '68 and have never had a problem making correct #2 alloy and for a long time did not measure nor could care less what the BHN was. What I wanted was quality bullets. Another example is with quality COWWs just by adding 2% tin the BHN can be 15 (+/-). That alloy will also almost always cast to the nominal diameter of Lyman moulds.

Having a quality alloy that casts excellent bullets with few rejects isn't always necessary for a lot of shooting but if one wants to cast to the close to the largest diameter one should use a correct alloy. Another problem is oversized bullets. I've several GB moulds from this forum that were cut for COWW/lead alloy at 50/50. The 312291 for example will cast close to a .315 bullet with #2 alloy or COWW + 2% tin alloy and over .316 with linotype alloy. Thus we see if a different alloy is used the as cast diameter can be grossly different.

As mentioned if you order a custom mould you designate the alloy it will be cut for. If you use another alloy be prepared to complain about them because they will be either too large or, again too small.....especially for all the moulds out there cut for COWWs......ya know those are a thing of the past and the supply is readily drying up. To get those moulds to drop "nominal" diameter bullets will require the mixing of metals to get the right combination.....just as it is with #2 alloy.

Larry Gibson

[tazman]

I know the alloy I use isn't no2. It is range scrap from an indoor range. It water drops to near 20 BHN. I have never measured it air cooled.
I use Lyman molds as well as other all the time. My Lyman molds drop right at spec or .001 larger consistently.
I suspect I just got lucky since the way I do it isn't at all scientific, but what the heck, it works for me.
I will undoubtedly need to use a different approach when I start on the rifles(30-06).

[williamwaco]

Williamwaco

Lyman has listed 2 different formula's to make their #2 alloy in their older cast bullet reloading manuals and particularly in the #3 and #$ Cast Bullet Handbooks. It's found on page 57 of my #3 and page 297 in the #4 CBH. I prefer to use the formula that uses linotype as I still have a quantity of it. Using the formula has produced very consistent results for me for 45 years+. In the #4 CBH there is a 3rd formula on page 297 also. All 3 formulas should produce a BHN of 15 (+/-) but the manual states; "Same BHN as #2 but different composition. That leads to the point of using the BHN as a measurement of composition is not a good thing to do. The BHN measures the hardness only, not the composition. I've been casting my own bullets since '68 and have never had a problem making correct #2 alloy and for a long time did not measure nor could care less what the BHN was. What I wanted was quality bullets. Another example is with quality COWWs just by adding 2% tin the BHN can be 15 (+/-). That alloy will also almost always cast to the nominal diameter of Lyman moulds.

Having a quality alloy that casts excellent bullets with few rejects isn't always necessary for a lot of shooting but if one wants to cast to the close to the largest diameter one should use a correct alloy. Another problem is oversized bullets. I've several GB moulds from this forum that were cut for COWW/lead alloy at 50/50. The 312291 for example will cast close to a .315 bullet with #2 alloy or COWW + 2% tin alloy and over .316 with linotype alloy. Thus we see if a different alloy is used the as cast diameter can be grossly different.

As mentioned if you order a custom mould you designate the alloy it will be cut for. If you use another alloy be prepared to complain about them because they will be either too large or, again too small.....especially for all the molds out there cut for COWWs......ya know those are a thing of the past and the supply is readily drying up. To get those molds to drop "nominal" diameter bullets will require the mixing of metals to get the right combination.....just as it is with #2 alloy.

Larry Gibson

I knew if anyone had actually done it, it would be you.

I too do not worry about BNH except in as much as less antimony means less expensive bullets I have several hundred pounds of lino so I mix everything with either lino or "soft" depending on whether I want it harder or softer.

I frequently use COWWs with just a touch of tin - 1 to 2 percent. I too measure that alloy at about BNH, 15 but I would never label it Lyman No. 2. This would be the hardest alloy I would normally use. I occasionally use this in my .30-30 with good results. Similarly this alloy, with or without the extra tin, casts full sized bullets for me.

I have been casting since 1956 but I have never achieved your level of technological knowledge. I am more interested in the shooting than the science of casting and loading.

I am too old and tired to do much hunting so I am only interested in accuracy, which is highly dependent on bullet quality. I add tin only when necessary to get perfect fill out but I do insist on perfect fill out.

[mac266]

I wish to politely disagree. I've been hearing of these so called complaints for several years now. I've a standing offer to test any so called "undersize not spec" Lyman mould. If it won't cast "to spec" I offer to buy the mould for what the owner paid for it plus shipping to me. I've tested 15 of them and all cast 'to spec" and the owners then wanted them back. I've not bought a single Lyman mould.

The problem with all of them was the "to spec" was the owners/buyer's idea of what the spec was supposed to be. Lyman cuts their moulds to their spec's with #2 alloy being what most are cut for. If you buy a 311299 and want it to cast out at .314 with COWW alloy it ain't going to happen. They will cast out at .312 +/- with #2 alloy though. The "spec" is .311 because that's what Lyman expects the minimal size cast with #2 alloy to be. If you want a 314299 that casts .316 on the bands and .304 on the nose (an exaggeration) then a custom mould from a custom mould maker is probably the best course.

Complaining about Lyman moulds that don't cast to your spec with an alloy the mould isn't cut for is......well, it is.........

I see we are now getting lots of complaints about Lee, RCBS and SAECO moulds not "casting to spec"........how about the buyer "casting to spec"?

Now I know someone will come on this thread and say I had a 314299 and it only cast .312 on the bands and I was using #2 alloy or some such.......well proper casting technique has something to do with that if indeed that's what it did. There are different casting techniques that are peculiar to some alloys, bullet designs and bullet weights. One size does not fit all. Be glad to help with that but please be agreeable to sending me the Lyman mould to test.....my offer is still open.

Larry Gibson


My experience runs the same vein as Larry Gibson. I had to vary my alloy and temperatures but every one of my new Lymans have come around once I learned the idiosyncrasy of the particular mold. I bought them from people that said they were defective from the factory.

My experiences have been the same. I have moulds from RCBS, Lyman, and Lee. The only time I buy Lee is when the former two do not make the bullet style or weight I am after, or when I do not anticipate making huge quantities of boolits. But my green and orange moulds have both performed admirably. Some of them I've purchased used, and a few of them have identification numbers so old I'm guessing they pre-date the Korean War. Others are nearly brand new, and perform the same as the older ones.

As others have said, diameter is all about alloy, casting temperature, cadence, etc. Casting is some science, but a lot of art. Once I've figured out each mould, it makes great boolits. In fact, I can't say I've ever owned a bad mould. I've never gotten rid of one, either, and I own somewhere around 20.

[Hickok]

Lyman molds have always worked well for me.

All except one, it was a Lyman #452651 325gr. It kicked way too hard in my Black Hawk:groner:.

Made my hand and elbow hurt after about 10 shots off the bench.:cry:
I was going to contact Lyman about the pain:violin:, but figured they would call me a big candy butt wimp:oops:, so I just sucked it up and went to 250 gr boolit in my 45's, and kept it to myself.

My hand and elbow have mended alright,......:kidding:

[44man]

I always had a mold and dies before a gun would arrive. The right size mold for your gun was always a problem even back in the 50's. That goes for all factory blocks.
Any cut with new cherries were on but cherries are so expensive, they sharpen them until out of specs. You would be lucky indeed to get first run blocks.
It is why a custom mold is worth the money.

[MBTcustom]

Moderator hat: You admit they drop TO SPEC. The rest is creating an argument where one does not exist. Enough!

My opinion:
Yes, Lyman molds cast the size they are speced at. Now the trick becomes finding a rifle with a groove diameter that small. It's obvious that they were making their bullets to be cast groove diameter when anybody who has been casting for more than about 2 weeks knows that the bullet needs to be .002 over groove diameter.
Now it's all very well for 30 caliber rifles if that's what you like to shoot, because Lyman has lots of ".311" designated molds that are great, but I'll just bet, that back in the day they just thought there were a whole lot of people shooting 303 British rifles and such when in reality, their .311 molds that cast .310 when run blazing hot with COWW alloy is precisely what the doctor ordered for every American 30 caliber rifle ever made! That's not science, that's pure dumb luck.
They make some awesome .358 bullet designs, and if you get really lucky, you can make them drop .359 if you hold your mouth right.
I've got several .457 designated rifle molds here. I'm still trying to figure out when in American history a 45 caliber rifle with a groove of .455 was so goshdam common that Lyman felt the need to make a ton of designs for it. (that's sarcasm BTW. I think they were too schtoopid to use their own products and cut molds for the common .457 groove diameter that were designated .459, and that cast .459.)

Add to that, horrible internal mold finish (not a deal breaker, but very unnecessary with so much custom competition), paper thin sprue plates made of stamped metal and guaranteed flat within .010 or your money back. Mold blocks that are about as square as a dog turd, the constant and perpetual fight against rust, and the shoddy customer service, and I do believe they're quality is on par with Lee or slightly below.

Don't get me wrong. Lyman sometimes accidentally makes a good product and they are fun to use. In fact, I was casting with a Lyman 358009 last night. It casts .3582 on the driving bands which will guarantee I can't shoot it very fast without leading, but that's why they put a GC shank on it!!! yay! Thanks guys!
OK, so here's a question: when have you ever seen a rifle that was made in this country, that was designed to shoot bo-hemouth 35 caliber bullets, that had a groove diameter of .356?
BTW, the nose on this bullet measures .350 right on the money, so obviously, they either schtoopidly designed the bullet to be cast groove diameter + nothing, or they wisely designed it to be used in a rifle with a groove diameter of .356 and a bore diameter of .350, which never ever happened in the history of the world.
One last thing I would like to say about Lyman molds is that often each cavity is a law unto itself, casting slightly different in size and weight from the others hardly enough to worry about but it still bugs me.

Now, all that being said, there is one big fat BUT that I need to throw in there. For all I just said to Lyman's detriment, I will add this to their favor, and that is bullet design. The problem with the custom mold makers is the very fact you can have anything you want even if it's wrong. This is part of the reason I started the thread "Did you design that Accurate Mold?". My hope was that some of the really good designed would be brought to light, and some of the mediocre ones would be also.

So Lyman designs (especially the ones that have survived the last century and are still available) are typically good shapes, and the shape of the bullet matters a lot.
RCBS is absolutely astounding and I consider their bullet designs to be very superior choices and the quality of their molds, while not on par with the custom boys, is very very good. I'd sooner buy an RCBS mold than a Lyman any old day of the week if they made the right bullet for what I am trying to do, but the problem is that RCBS designs are limited and they only have so many for each caliber.

In conclusion, here's my opinion on Lyman cast bullets: If you shoot 30 caliber predominately, you have lots of choices for molds of mediocre quality. Anything bigger than that, and you're screwed.
RCBS makes a darn good mold that typically casts .001 larger than the groove diameter they are designed for, but that's enough to get you well into excellent performance. Their designs are solid as a rock, but limited.
If you want a quality bullet mold that casts exactly what your rifle requires for excellent performance, made on modern machinery, with modern cutters, which produce mirror smooth cavities that actually cast the same weight bullet even on a 4 cavity gang mold, a mold which has a thick heat soaking sprue plate that is flat as a flitter and sharp as moma's hair scissors, all wrapped up in a beautifully made tool that would put Hensley and Gibbs to shame, then a modern mold maker is the way to roll, but you have to do careful research and choose a bullet shape that will perform for you, otherwise I can assure you it will be made exactly wrong.

I highly recommend Accurate Molds and NOE. I buy all my molds made of brass in my own designs or in designs that are proven performers.
I have demonstrated the precision of these molds to be +-.1 grains and less than .0005 inches deviation in diameter for over 300 bullets from 4 cavity molds. This is mean average precision that Lyman cannot touch with a ten foot pole IMHO, and RCBS may even have trouble with. Sure, they could do it with a single cavity mold, or possibly a two cavity mold, but not a 4 holer.
In my opinion, if your casting proficiency has gotten to the point that you are frustrated with not being able to get a Lyman mold that is properly made for your common rifle, and RCBS has nothing in the style you require, then it is high time you give the custom boys a shot.

[OS OK]

Is this about casting and trying to go straight to the chamber without visiting the sizer first?
Or… is this about measuring? What instrument, calipers or micrometer…calipers don't measure in tenths of thousandths.
Different blends of Pb, Sn, Sb, Lino etc. all pour out at different diameters, hardnesses and age harden/soften.
Don't we have the tools at hand to manipulate our blends and force them to whatever size we desire?
Isn't this what making our own boolits is?.. what we are doing in the first place?
Or… is this about casting and trying to go straight to the chamber?

Your mold is only the first step in manufacturing a professional looking, accurate shooting projectile that fits the application.

[Blackwater]

All companies, like people, can vary over time. It's all according to the people in charge, and what they'll accept as "good to go," and what they just won't tolerate. Take Savage, for example. The current management is putting out some VERY good rifles, and if I had to bet my life on an off the shelf, stock sporter doing MOA with factory ammo, I'd likely pick a Savage. Remington, on the other hand, seems to have slipped from their once great record. Browning, once the ne plus ultra among guns, has become strictly a marketing company that seems to be run by yuppie scum Harvard MBA's who intend to rely mostly on their past reputation. I look at all things Browning with askance now, knives in particular. They seem to charge a premium for the name, and deliver run of the mill quality.

A largely anti-gun gov't along with the highest taxation of any civilized nation on businesses has made it hard for any gun or ammo company to keep its head above water, and they seem to usually get blamed for trying to deal with it all and put out at least an acceptable and workable product.

I think a lot of companies like Lee and Lyman that depend on the general work force to produce good products are having trouble finding good workers who'll simply do more than show up and do the minimum necessary to get a paycheck at the end of the week, so they can blow it on frivolous things. The general character of the work force is critical to getting a good product.

A local cast/malleable iron foundry was a real study in business management and human psychology. They had some very good and competent workers, particularly in their maintenance wing, and they consistently made money despite management that was basically driven by carpetbagger ethics and principles. There've been many other examples like this pretty much everywhere, I think.

Real quality comes from care and attention to detail and simple competence, along with good leadership and decision making. That's increasingly hard to find now, and it seems to me that the biggest reason is the way our MBA's are trained now. When Harvard business school came out with the precept that it's all about the money, and all else is insignificant, things really began to go downhill, but nobody seems to have noticed this. Business ethics no longer exists as anything remotely like what they once were, and everybody seems to have the robber baron mentality these days. "Make the money while you can" seems to be the guiding ethic now, and .... well, just look around and you can't miss seeing what that's done for us! And as Sonny and Cher said, "The Beat Goes On!"

[44man]

Is this about casting and trying to go straight to the chamber without visiting the sizer first?
Or… is this about measuring? What instrument, calipers or micrometer…calipers don't measure in tenths of thousandths.
Different blends of Pb, Sn, Sb, Lino etc. all pour out at different diameters, hardnesses and age harden/soften.
Don't we have the tools at hand to manipulate our blends and force them to whatever size we desire?
Isn't this what making our own boolits is?.. what we are doing in the first place?
Or… is this about casting and trying to go straight to the chamber?

Your mold is only the first step in manufacturing a professional looking, accurate shooting projectile that fits the application.
I make my own molds and can tell you how to make it cast a rounder boolit. YOU can't. But to say a mold will make a larger boolit by changing the alloy alone might gain .0005" so you search for Lyman No. 2. get over it, even lino will not improve it enough if the mold is too small.
I can cast a .476" boolit and after water dropping and aging I can reach .478" but to think a .30 will get to size is a joke. Changing alloy alone is not as good as making the mold right.
Mold temps do help and more heat will make a smaller boolit and more out of round so you are stuck with fill out or a worse boolit.
Factory mold makers base the size on what guns were and an alloy but the alloy is the worst determination but so is what bores measured in the past. Not right either as bores varied all over the place. They still do!
I hate to order a 45-70 mold that starts with .457. You might actually get .457" but need .460". But you could get .456" as easily. Don't think you can change heat or alloy to reach .460".
My legs are short because nobody can pull them.
Nothing in my life was as revealing as making my own molds.
Still a custom mold is the best way to go. They are not stupid or cheap and work for you to make what you need.

[chevyiron420]

My experience with Lyman has been bad as well. The last mould I got from them, and the last I will ever get from them, is a 313249. The very largest boolit I can get from it is with pure lino at .312. Absolute junk, and as far as I am concerned a theft of my money. Between my son and I we have eight 32 cal revolvers, and this mould is not useful for any of them. I am not going to bother sending it back because I had a go around with them before with a bad die and got no where.

[Smoke4320]

Anyway, I find that most equipment problems are caused by "Operator Error"

I find that tightening the nut behind the ladle solves most of my problems

[geargnasher]

Go custom. Lyman quality has been going downhill for a while. Yes, user error with pot temperature, mould temperature, "weak" alloy, and the expectations of what the latest generation of bullet casters have for size all can cause actual or perceived "undersized" bullets, but Lyman has indeed had a whole bunch of problems turning out usable moulds for some time now.

What I've noticed since about 2007 is a chronic undersized condition compared to the same part numbers they sold in the past, cavities not bored on center, cavities not cut to full depth, and cavities not aligning. Worn cherries and worn boring vise guide rods together with not clearing chips from between block faces are the suspected manufacturing malfunctions. Some moulds are reported to be "on spec", or equivalent to the size and quality of the older moulds, so some new cherries must be being ground and there must be at least one competent mill operator left at Lyman, but I wouldn't bet on the odds of getting a mould today that was even close to quality and dimensions that we've been used to for the last 50 years.

Gear

[44man]

All companies, like people, can vary over time. It's all according to the people in charge, and what they'll accept as "good to go," and what they just won't tolerate. Take Savage, for example. The current management is putting out some VERY good rifles, and if I had to bet my life on an off the shelf, stock sporter doing MOA with factory ammo, I'd likely pick a Savage. Remington, on the other hand, seems to have slipped from their once great record. Browning, once the ne plus ultra among guns, has become strictly a marketing company that seems to be run by yuppie scum Harvard MBA's who intend to rely mostly on their past reputation. I look at all things Browning with askance now, knives in particular. They seem to charge a premium for the name, and deliver run of the mill quality.

A largely anti-gun gov't along with the highest taxation of any civilized nation on businesses has made it hard for any gun or ammo company to keep its head above water, and they seem to usually get blamed for trying to deal with it all and put out at least an acceptable and workable product.

I think a lot of companies like Lee and Lyman that depend on the general work force to produce good products are having trouble finding good workers who'll simply do more than show up and do the minimum necessary to get a paycheck at the end of the week, so they can blow it on frivolous things. The general character of the work force is critical to getting a good product.

A local cast/malleable iron foundry was a real study in business management and human psychology. They had some very good and competent workers, particularly in their maintenance wing, and they consistently made money despite management that was basically driven by carpetbagger ethics and principles. There've been many other examples like this pretty much everywhere, I think.

Real quality comes from care and attention to detail and simple competence, along with good leadership and decision making. That's increasingly hard to find now, and it seems to me that the biggest reason is the way our MBA's are trained now. When Harvard business school came out with the precept that it's all about the money, and all else is insignificant, things really began to go downhill, but nobody seems to have noticed this. Business ethics no longer exists as anything remotely like what they once were, and everybody seems to have the robber baron mentality these days. "Make the money while you can" seems to be the guiding ethic now, and .... well, just look around and you can't miss seeing what that's done for us! And as Sonny and Cher said, "The Beat Goes On!"
That is a post I agree with so much with so much truth, anyone here that does not agree will be branded with a "D".
I can't give enough praise for truth.

[Jack Stanley]

And that's right where I'm at with them Gear . What ever they produce today doesn't matter to me because I've bought my last new mold from them . Finding and old one that works right is still a treasure but I'd rather get a new one that works right without taking a chance . That's where the other makers come in .

Jack

[jmort]

+2
"Go custom."

If yo don't need a HP, and generally you do not, and you don't need a bullet under .284" get a mold from Accurate.

[OS OK]

​44man…………"But to say a mold will make a larger boolit by changing the alloy alone might gain .0005" so you search for Lyman No. 2. get over it, even lino will not improve it enough if the mold is too small."

I didn't say that…I don't have any idea how to make a boolit drop larger than the mold you make it in…I don't have the means to measure the mold, only the product it drops...what I was pointing out was that with the different blends of Pb we make for ourselves that the boolit can be of various sizes and all from the same mold.
My question here is why all the concern about having a mold drop perfect 'certain size' boolits…doesn't everyone size, size and lube or size PC and size again for the particular weapon? I might be going out on a limb here but cant a mold be dealt with to increase its size and finnish…can't remember the term.

"My legs are short because nobody can pull them." No, you've jumped off too many ladders!

[HangFireW8]

I wish to politely disagree. I've been hearing of these so called complaints for several years now. I've a standing offer to test any so called "undersize not spec" Lyman mould. If it won't cast "to spec" I offer to buy the mould for what the owner paid for it plus shipping to me. I've tested 15 of them and all cast 'to spec" and the owners then wanted them back. I've not bought a single Lyman mould.

The problem with all of them was the "to spec" was the owners/buyer's idea of what the spec was supposed to be. Lyman cuts their moulds to their spec's with #2 alloy being what most are cut for. If you buy a 311299 and want it to cast out at .314 with COWW alloy it ain't going to happen. They will cast out at .312 +/- with #2 alloy though. The "spec" is .311 because that's what Lyman expects the minimal size cast with #2 alloy to be. If you want a 314299 that casts .316 on the bands and .304 on the nose (an exaggeration) then a custom mould from a custom mould maker is probably the best course.

Complaining about Lyman moulds that don't cast to your spec with an alloy the mould isn't cut for is......well, it is.........

I see we are now getting lots of complaints about Lee, RCBS and SAECO moulds not "casting to spec"........how about the buyer "casting to spec"?

Now I know someone will come on this thread and say I had a 314299 and it only cast .312 on the bands and I was using #2 alloy or some such.......well proper casting technique has something to do with that if indeed that's what it did. There are different casting techniques that are peculiar to some alloys, bullet designs and bullet weights. One size does not fit all. Be glad to help with that but please be agreeable to sending me the Lyman mould to test.....my offer is still open.

Larry Gibson

Larry,

Which Lyman #2 alloy are you using?

Long before I heard of you, I made a special batch of the second formula Lyman #2 and tried out my two new Lyman molds in .308 and got... Lots of .308" boolits. So you can say they were right on spec. :)

Sorry I can't take you up on your offer. I returned both to Lyman where they lapped them out another .0005", then I lapped them the rest of the way myself. Unfortunately the 311041 never shot well. A comparison with some other 311041's revealed that mine used a very, very different cherry profile, and indeed, it has varied a lot over the years. (Mine has a very skinny nose).

So whenever anyone defends their Lyman molds, I always ask "which cherry?" It's stamped on the mold. Maybe it's like beanie babies, they want you to collect them all, so they switch it up every year. Lol

[GaryN]

Use what you want. I won't buy Lyman unless I see the size of the bullet that came out of the mold. And it's not just the size. How about the hole(funnel) on the sprue plate not being cut deep enough on one hole of a four holer. Sure you can fix them up so they might work but why bother when you can just buy one that works from the start.

[Larry Gibson]

Which Lyman #2 alloy are you using?

Read post #10, the answer was there.

My offer still stands. I see one poster still complains even though he is one who sent me two Lyman moulds. He was using straight COWWs and complaining his Lyman mould did not cast to spec. The 454190 he sent cast right on spec (actually a tudge over) with the COWWs +2% tin alloy I used. I offered to buy it anyway but he wanted it back. The second mould was indeed a factory defect and I recommended he send it back.


I have seen defects come from most all of the commercial production mould makers bar none. That happens with any manufacturing process. I have an RCBS that does cast undersize even with the linotype alloy it is cut for. I've seen RCBS, SAECO, Lee and others (including an H&G) with misaligned blocks. I recently returned a loaned Accurate mould to good steel to have a new sprue plate made because of the poor material in the original. Those things do happen.

As to undersize moulds I've only found one so far, the RCBS. I've numerous complainers who tell me they can't take me up on my offer because of one reason or another. Until I actually see one I'm more inclined to think the claimer isn't incorrect that his bullets are undersize. I've had the undersized bullets accompany the moulds sent to me. However, as I mentioned before almost invariably the alloy was incorrect or the casting technique was incorrect. I also have several custom moulds that cast oversize to the point they are not useable for what I wanted them for. I choose not to bad mouth the manufacturer for my own mistake in not finding out what the alloy was they were cut for.

Goodsteel

You might do a little research on those 457xxx Lyman moulds you say won't cast .002 over (assuming you want .459?). I've been casting with numerous Lyman 457xxx moulds for years and haven't found one that wouldn't drop .459 - .460 with #2 alloy. Some of the older ones will drop larger because the alloy used when they were made was different, especially older Ideal moulds. The research I mention is to go back a hundred plus years and see what the prevailing thought was; it was the bullets should "bump up" and then along in the '30s it changed to cast bullets shouldn't be sized over .001 and then they shouldn't be more than .001 over the groove diameter; "Complete Guide To Handloading, Philip B. Sharpe, 1931, pp 99.

Same applies to your 358008 mould which drops .358+ with your shop alloy(?) and I suspect would drop .359 or close to .360 with #2 alloy. I shoot a lot of .359 "as cast 35-200-FNs through my .358 35 Rem barrel with no leading and excellent accuracy. Things do change as do concepts of what is needed with cast bullets. A bullet .003 over size is not always the right answer. The concept that our cast bullets should be .003 over groove diameter is not new and you and I don't always follow that. You can send me those Lyman moulds for testing if you wish?

Many casters don't know or don't remember or even consider also that many of the older designs were cut for #1 alloy. Even newer made moulds cut with those older cherries will cast larger with #2 alloy. Anyone who doesn't think you can get .001 - .003 difference in as cast diameters from different alloys and casting techniques has experimented that much.

My offer to test and buy (for what you paid for the mould + shipping to me) any Lyman moulds that cast under the nominal diameter with #2 alloy still stands.

Larry Gibson

[MBTcustom]

Goodsteel

You might do a little research on those 457xxx Lyman moulds you say won't cast .002 over (assuming you want .459?). I've been casting with numerous Lyman 457xxx moulds for years and haven't found one that wouldn't drop .459 - .460 with #2 alloy. Some of the older ones will drop larger because the alloy used when they were made was different, especially older Ideal moulds. The research I mention is to go back a hundred plus years and see what the prevailing thought was; it was the bullets should "bump up" and then along in the '30s it changed to cast bullets shouldn't be sized over .001 and then they shouldn't be more than .001 over the groove diameter; "Complete Guide To Handloading, Philip B. Sharpe, 1931, pp 99. Things do change as do concepts of what is needed with cast bullets. You can send me those Lyman moulds for testing if you wish? Consider also that many of the older designs were made for #1 alloy which is why they cast larger with #2 alloy.

My offer still stands.


Larry Gibson

Larry, with all due respect:
You said the molds cast exactly as stated in the designation, and that has been my experience exactly. You are right as rain. That doesn't change the fact that it's the wrong size for 99.999% of the rifles out there. You of all people should know that truth and prevailing thought are not always the same thing. I'm not shooting black powder, nor am I casting with pure lead, nor was anyone else when the molds I mentioned were cut. Both the 457s and the 358009 are GC designs and intended for use with Lyman #2 casting alloy (just as you said), and they are also made to cast a groove diameter bullet which is evidenced very very clearly by the size of the nose vs. driving band area of the 358009.
My father taught me to cast with the methods used and advocated back in the 60s and 70s, and his opinion was to shoot groove diameter bullets and scrub the lead out of the barrel. If you didn't like scrubbing lead out of the barrel, then you needed bullets that were hard as diamonds so you needed to water quench your Lyman #2 alloy.
As you say, they were applying black powder bullet size design to modern smokeless loading.
Meanwhile, an experienced caster knows that the trick to getting nice results is to manage wall pressure with size, and hardness of the alloy, while never leaning too hard on either of them in order to do away with the other.

So to sum up you're absolutely right on these points:
1. Lyman molds are designed to be cast with Lyman #2 alloy at a proper pace, or at least an alloy that is similar
2. Lyman molds cast exactly as they are designated.
3. Lyman never got the memo that shooting smokeless powder is different than shooting BP. They applied heritage thinking to their bullet designs.

To this I would submit the following points:
1. Very few people in the last century have used Lyman #2 alloy regularly, except target shooters, and those shooters insisted on bullets that were either .001-.002 oversize, or were made of a tapered style.

2. The thinking that Lyman used to arrive at the sizes their molds cast to, is inherently flawed. We have established that the molds were designed for use with #2 alloy, and also that they picked those sizes because they think the bullets are going to bump up. Seems to me that if they wanted the bullets to bump up, they would NOT recommend using their #2 casting alloy in the same breath. In fact, I would think that #2 was one of the hardest alloys to bump up following Zamic, Monotype, and Lynotype and honestly, I think anybody who has spent any time behind a rifle would agree wholeheartedly that these two lines of thinking are like oil and water.

What this leaves us with is an inability to shoot Lyman molds effectively, because they intentionally made the molds exactly WRONG. The fact that they did it on purpose, and wrote the error on the side of the mold, doesn't seem to cut any ice with a guy who's tired of scrubbing lead out of his barrel.
Lyman's 358 molds cast 358, and they will lead up a 358 barrel of you push them to the speeds Lyman lists in it's manual.
Lyman's 457 molds cast 457 and will lead up any 457 barrel that is commonly used in 99% of the rifles that were made in the last century (or two).

All other commercial bullet mold makers have caught the hint. For instance, Lee makes their molds .002 oversized typically. RCBS runs very close to .001 oversize (a little on the small side, but usable).
Lyman alone sticks out like a sore thumb with molds that cast undersized bullets for all occasions, and they stamp it on the side of every mold they produce. If I mainly shot 30 caliber, this would not be a problem because there are so many molds that are made by Lyman for the 303 brittish and the 09 Argentine's that you just cant miss, but any other caliber you're in no mans land with Lyman molds and it is very difficult to get excellent results from them.

What I'm saying Larry, is that I could send you my Lyman molds, you would cast the same size as I do, and neither one of us could say that size is really ideal for the 338, 358, 40, 45, or 458 caliber rifles, and there is no way we would order a custom mold in that size. Ever. Not this century, and not last century. Maybe the one before that (Go back in time far enough and you can get away from antimonial lead and that pesky smokeless powder. LOL!)

[btroj]

Do Lyman moulds cast to their specs with Lyman 2 alloy?
Probably do in most cases.

Do I use Lyman 2? Never
Do I want bullets the size Lyman moulds throw from my alloys? Not very often.

Lyman has their specs, my rifles have their demands. I bow to the demands of my rifles, Lyman specs be damned.

It isn't about specs, it is about what works for me, with my alloy, in my rifles.

To a certain extent this is a silly discussion. We each have an obligation to find what works for our own needs. If Larry is happy with his Lyman moulds and his alloys in his guns then more power to him. I will always use what works best for me. I would expect everyone else to do the same, find what works for them and forge ahead.

I haven't used a Lyman mould much in over 5 years. Lee group buys, Accurate, MP, and NOE dominate my casting needs.

[country gent]

One thing to remeber is a mould throwing an undersized bullet is much easier to fix than one dropping to large. I perfer my moulds to cast at size or a couple thousandths under and I can lap them to what I need. A to big cvity requires some real work to fix. Even the moulds I have made my self I left slightly small and lapped to size and finish. I can lap polish bigger but cant lapp or polish smaller.

[Larry Gibson]

goodsteel makes my point precisely;

1. Lyman molds are designed to be cast with Lyman #2 alloy at a proper pace, or at least an alloy that is similar
2. Lyman molds cast exactly as they are designated.

As to #3 Lyman has come up with some very "modern" designs. Remember Lyman took over the IDEAL mould line and has been making molds for 100+ years as such. Yes there are a lot of older IDEAL/Lyman designs out there but look at most all the other manufacturers; they emulate those designs. There are what some of us consider more modern designs (you and I designed one) but frankly Lyman, RCBS, SAECO and several of the "custom" makers don't cater to us. Look at their lines and you'll see far more clones or very close copies of Lyman designs.

Now that geargnasher and btroj are back on board I could care less what they use. Geargnasher uses Lyman moulds, he sent me a couple (referred to in an earlier post. My point is if you buy a mould that is guaranteed to cast to the nominal diameter such as 358xxx or 457xxx with a certain alloy and you want a .361xxx or 460xxx bullet using a different alloy then who's fault is it you don't get what you want? the answer is obvious. So why are you complaining about the make of the mould when it is "operator error"?

Goodsteel you read far to much into what I said or stated. Who are "we" to have established anything? I don't see anything in print other than on this forum that anything is "established". "we" are a very small % of the casting community. I have been casting bullets for many years. When I started out the two most used alloys were linotype (because it was readily available back then) and #2 alloy. Very few casters used WWs. Only after offset printing went the way of the dinosaurs and linotype become scarcer did WW use catch on. Read cast bullet articles and references in books prior to the internet and this forum and you'll find little reference to WWs other than using it to make #2 alloy. Show me where Keith, Skelton, Cooper, etc ad nauseum used WWs. Now WWs are also going the way of the dinosaur and everyone is going to be mixing their alloys anyway, whether it's #2 or not. That is a fact.

BTW; Lyman moulds are cut to cast .001 - .002 over the nominal because they are expected, by Lyman (read their manuals), to be sized to .001 over groove diameter not the .003+ that everyone is led to believe here.

Lyman's 457 molds cast 457 and will lead up any 457 barrel that is commonly used in 99% of the rifles that were made in the last century (or two)
Huh? I've been shooting and have been to many large bore matches where lots of Lyman 457 moulds were used of varying alloys and powders. None leaded. I push Lyman 457s to 2400 fps out of my Siamese Mauser w/o leading. If you're getting leading in all your 457s then you are using the wrong alloy or the wrong lube.

Not so sure why you think Lyman mould cast bullets can't be shot "effectively"(?). In our recent HV tests the Lyman 311466 shot every bit as well to the same velocity level in my 10, 12 and 14" twist .308Ws. It was only in the 30x60 that the 30x57 and 30x60 XCBs that the 30 XCB bullet surpassed it. The Lyman 311041 shot every bit as well to 2500+ fps as did the Accurate 30 XCB FN. My Lyman 311291 shoots every bit as well as the "custom" GB 312291. My Lyman 314299 shoots as well in my .31s (.303, 7.62x54R, 7.65 Argentine) as does the "custom" 316299 I've used. I could go on and on but it makes no difference. Y

So send me your moulds goodsteel. If they cast to nominal+ what's to complain about? I still cant figure out if the throat is .359 and the groove diameter is .358 why a .359 bullet is wrong? I only consider a bullet to be "ideal" if sized to fit the throat unless that throat is .003+ over the groove diameter. I've run too many tests proving, as did Sharpe and others back in '37 that a bullet sized .003 over the groove diameter of the barrel is counterproductive to accuracy. I prefer .002 - .0025. However, in some applications I have found .001 to be about right. As noted it varies with the rifle, cartridge and bullet.

So you don't like Lyman moulds so send me all you got? I won't mind.

Larry Gibson

[btroj]

Never said you should care Larry, just stating my opinions.

[Larry Gibson]

You usually do and I'm entitled to mine also.

Larry Gibson

[btroj]

Lyman has some good designs. They can make a good mould.

They also still say micro groove barrels need hard bullets kept below 1600 fps to be accurate. We all know how accurate that info is.

My guns say Lyman moulds just aren't properly sized to make them happy, that is enough for me.

[runfiverun]

how come my lyman books say they used linotype and not #2 in their rifle boolits if that's what they spec them for.

[str8shot426]

Larry,

I wonder about all this "Lyman No2" alloy these new casters are using and getting undersized bullets?

I have never seen Lyman No 2 used by a real bullet caster.
But maybe in time. I have only been doing this for 60 years.

Most people call any alloy that tests BNH 15 ( or thereabouts ) Lyman no 2.

Lyman doesn't even list it in their catalog any more. At least I can't find it by searching the latest PDF.
I read an article about it in one of the Lyman cast bullet handbooks a few years ago in which Lyman stated they couldn't even buy it anymore.
They said every batch they bought was different, close but not exact. They attributed that to the use of reclaimed metals in the mix.

The only source I can find is Rotometals at about 3.00 per pound. I seriously doubt that most new casters ever heard of Rotometals and doubt even stronger that they are paying 3.00 for alloy when they can get it delivered to their front porch for less than half that.

I know there are a few members of this group who have actually ordered from Rotometals. I am one of them. Even fewer who have mixed their own batch of Lyman no 2. I am not one of them, but I expect Larry has done both.

All my Lyman molds, even the new ones, cast .001 to .002 over my sizing diameter.

Anyway, I find that most equipment problems are caused by "Operator Error"

I'm still trying to wrap my head around the fact that "real boolit casters" don't use Lyman #2.

[geargnasher]

Now that geargnasher and btroj are back on board I could care less what they use. Geargnasher uses Lyman moulds, he sent me a couple (referred to in an earlier post. My point is if you buy a mould that is guaranteed to cast to the nominal diameter such as 358xxx or 457xxx with a certain alloy and you want a .361xxx or 460xxx bullet using a different alloy then who's fault is it you don't get what you want? the answer is obvious. So why are you complaining about the make of the mould when it is "operator error"?


Larry Gibson

I'm not complaining, only making statements of experience based on things that are not operator error.

The OP asked for input on the quality of Lyman moulds and I gave him mine based on thirteen examples purchased since 2007 compared to about nine made before then by both Lyman and Ideal, which cast larger than marked with very weak alloy, without exception, and by a consistent margin while not a single one of the newer ones would make nominal with straight Linotype at any mould or pot temperature. I explained in detail what the legitimate issues with them are, when the bad run started, and pointed out some of the things that in some instances are misplaced criticisms of Lyman.

Let me be entitled to my well-experienced opinion, as you insist on having yours, and see if you can't just once cut out the non-helpful personal comments.

Gear

[jmort]

"Let me be entitled to my well-experienced opinion"

Agreed. It is nice to have some of the experienced members back for however long they wish to contribute. I know I have learned much from these fellows.

[MaryB]

I blend my pistol alloy to #2 specs from whatever I have on hand. I have enough variety of alloys that I CAN match it! And it works well for my 9mm use and my gun dealer likes it in his 45acp...


Larry,

I wonder about all this "Lyman No2" alloy these new casters are using and getting undersized bullets?

I have never seen Lyman No 2 used by a real bullet caster.
But maybe in time. I have only been doing this for 60 years.

Most people call any alloy that tests BNH 15 ( or thereabouts ) Lyman no 2.

Lyman doesn't even list it in their catalog any more. At least I can't find it by searching the latest PDF.
I read an article about it in one of the Lyman cast bullet handbooks a few years ago in which Lyman stated they couldn't even buy it anymore.
They said every batch they bought was different, close but not exact. They attributed that to the use of reclaimed metals in the mix.

The only source I can find is Rotometals at about 3.00 per pound. I seriously doubt that most new casters ever heard of Rotometals and doubt even stronger that they are paying 3.00 for alloy when they can get it delivered to their front porch for less than half that.

I know there are a few members of this group who have actually ordered from Rotometals. I am one of them. Even fewer who have mixed their own batch of Lyman no 2. I am not one of them, but I expect Larry has done both.

All my Lyman molds, even the new ones, cast .001 to .002 over my sizing diameter.

Anyway, I find that most equipment problems are caused by "Operator Error"

[MBTcustom]

So now Lyman molds cast oversize? Hmmm. A minute ago they cast to spec.
Look, my 45-70s have .458 diameter grooves. The bullets they like to shoot measure .459-.460. The Lyman molds I have are designated .457XXX and that is precisely what they cast. SO!!! Let's just go buy one of Lyman's 460XXX molds. Oh yeah. They never made such a thing.
Now, why would I, an experienced caster who knows what size bullets my rifle likes, go and intentionally learn to cast with an UNDERSIZED MOLD.
See, a 458 groove requires a .459-.460 diameter bullet (at least, in my shop it does). Also, in my shop, I require that the right tool be used for the job.
They fact is that a .457 diameter bullet is not the correct size to be used in a .458 diameter barrel. The fact that the mold is stamped .457 and it actually casts that precise size, doesn't change its inadiquacy for the job, doesn't change the fact that I have to compromise with the tool to get the job done, and doesn't change the fact that our sport is teaming with very very skilled mold makers who listen to what their customers want, stand behind the product they make, and invest incredible amount of care in the product to make sure that it casts within two ten thousandths of an inch of what we specify, and they offer to cut the molds to perform exactly as I desire with any alloy I am likely to use if I so specify when the mold is ordered.

I enjoy the era we live in with all its custom makers. Lyman will always be able to be bought in pawnshops across the country, but I seriously doubt Accurate, NOE, or MiHeck will often be found in such a state, because they are the modern day Hensley and Gibbs (the new fangled upstart from yesteryear).
I'm investing in these custom molds while I can and Im enjoying the excellence while it is available to me, and I encourage others to do the same.
That's my opinion, and that has no bearing on anyone else's opinion unless they find logic in my thinking.

[btroj]

Tim, that mght well explain why my Lyman 457122 HP mould resides at my FILs house. My Marlin doesn't shoot well with a .457 bullet, at spec or not. Now my Lee GB 460420 PB shoots great, might be the fact it casts the right size for MY barrel?

Casting to spec doesn't mean squat if the spec is wrong for the application.

[MaryB]

Moderator hat: RESPECT OTHERS OPINIONS! Many come from people with years of experience! Trolling for the sake of an argument is childish! We all know what OUR pistol/rifle wants in a bullet. You may have the exact same model and it needs a mold .001 larger! That is why we have custom mold makers, I have several Lyman molds and with #2 they cast to spec. If I use pure WW they don't! If I use random range scrap it is a tossup depending on what is in it. There are to many variables for every mold to be perfect!

[Scharfschuetze]

Casting to spec doesn't mean squat if the spec is wrong for the application.

That makes a lot of sense. Casters should probably know what their firearm's barrel needs and then alloy, mould and and then size to match that and not blame a company that tells you what its mould is set for and with what and then expect it to do something it wasn't meant to do outside of those parameters.

One just wonders sometimes...

[MaryB]

He is arguing for the sake of arguing. Common sense comes into play here. Know what your pistol/rifle needs and order accordingly. My HiPoint has a sewer barrel and needs .359, my Lee 120-tc drops at this with the right #2 alloy mix and I can run them unsized in it. I had to order a larger expander due to it!


That makes a lot of sense. Casters should probably know what their firearm's barrel needs and then alloy, mould and and then size to match that and not blame a company that tells you what its mould is set for and then expect it to do something it wasn't meant to do.

Simple cause and effect. One just wonders sometimes...

[jmort]

Now this is some good stuff, best I have seen for a while. Trying to sort this out is like catching a knife, good luck.

[MBTcustom]

That makes a lot of sense. Casters should probably know what their firearm's barrel needs and then alloy, mould and and then size to match that and not blame a company that tells you what its mould is set for and then expect it to do something it wasn't meant to do.

One just wonders sometimes...

You make a valid point, but the burning question on my mind that no one can answer is: What exactly was a .457 diameter bullet supposed to be good for? What rifle barrel specs a .448/.456 bore/groove? Why would I EVER BUY A MOLD IN THAT SIZE, CUSTOM OR OTHERWISE???? (caps for emphasis on the question. No disrespect. Not yelling.)

[MaryB]

Is someone forcing you to buy one? No? Then quit arguing! Sheesh! Some people DO have undersized barrels, and some older rifles may have been undersize and they matched it for the time and the mold is still available. My Mosin 91/30 slug .314, My Finnish Mosin .311. Is it Lee's fault their mold doesn't work for both? NO! Ispecially ordered a mold for my worn Mosin because I like it with "the load" using Red Dot. Low recoil range fun!


You make a valid point, but the burning question on my mind that no one can answer is: What exactly was a .457 diameter bullet supposed to be good for? What rifle barrel specs a .448/.456 bore/groove? Why would I EVER BUY A MOLD IN THAT SIZE, CUSTOM OR OTHERWISE???? (caps for emphasis on the question. No disrespect. Not yelling.)

[geargnasher]

Now this is some good stuff, best I have seen for a while. Trying to sort this out is like catching a knife, good luck.

You are absolutely right about that. My apologies to the OP, I was only trying to give him my data points as they related to his question and had hoped that others would do the same.

Gear

[Scharfschuetze]

Why would I EVER BUY A MOLD IN THAT SIZE, CUSTOM OR OTHERWISE????

Without being snide, I think that you answer your own question.

Now I will add that my Lyman 457193 mould casts to .459" with Lyman #2 or hard alloy. Luck? Perhaps, but it shoots just fine in all but only one or two of my original Trapdoors when run through a .460" sizer and is superlative in my H&Rs and Marlin.

[MBTcustom]

Is someone forcing you to buy one? No? Then quit arguing! Sheesh! Some people DO have undersized barrels, and some older rifles may have been undersize and they matched it for the time and the mold is still available. My Mosin 91/30 slug .314, My Finnish Mosin .311. Is it Lee's fault their mold doesn't work for both? NO! Ispecially ordered a mold for my worn Mosin because I like it with "the load" using Red Dot. Low recoil range fun!

Relax Mary, I'm not arguing. My dander is not up. I'm not beating people over the head, and I earnestly want an answer to my question.
I already have the molds. They were inherited from my father and they sit unused behind a pile of custom molds. I gave my opinion respectfully, now I am trying to get to the bottom of this. I could take it to PM's and phone conversations, but that's why we have an internet forum. If all we had to do was read reloading manuals to satisfy every facet of our curiosity, then there would be no need for this forum. No one is hurling insults, and we are having a spirited exchange in a respectful manner. Everyone knows you are watching, so if they step out of line smash them. In the mean time, please let the conversations run it's course. You'll know in a few posts weather action is needed, but you don't take it unless there is no other recourse.
This is an issue that has been danced around for a long time, but I never read a good heart to heart discussion along these lines, and I want to know what drives this Lyman loyalty that is prevalent.
It's easy for someone to say that you bought the wrong mold if there are other options from the manufacturer, but in this case, there are none.
I want to know if the Lyman advocates are just making generalities, or if I have missed something. Larry Gibson is one who I respect more than any other shooter on this forum as a logical and scientific man, but he has made these same remarks, and I don't believe he would make generalities. There is method to using these undersized lyman molds and I want to know what these older gentlemen are driving at. I look at these molds and I see a bunch of misfits (pun intended). These other men look at them and they see jewelry.
Is it history?
Is it nostalgia?
Is it simple brand loyalty?
Is it science that has been swept under the rug by our modern method?

These people have been at this much longer than any of us middle aged fellers have been, and their opinion is precious to me and worth allowing to be posted in a debate.

[MaryB]

Person to ask is your father! Or research pictures and see what guns he owned at the time that they could have been used for. Because Lyman WOULD NOT make them if people did not have a use for them. And yes, every mold maker has a screw up, machinist has a bad day, worn cherry nobody caught and changed... it happens. Send it back and get it fixed or get a new mold... My first Lee bator mold had such a gap between the blocks I could slide a piece of paper in it. Sent it back and got one that was good.

[geargnasher]

Tim, my answer is simple: Many moons ago, Ideal and Lyman both used to make their 45-caliber rifle moulds so they would cast about 459" with near pure lead. I have a couple and cherish them. Then they changed, and have a variety of other quality issues that they didn't used to have to boot.

Ideal and Lyman used to make all of their moulds cast plenty large enough to work with most things well, and without having to use lab-grade #2 alloy. We got used to it, expected it, almost as we expect the sun to come up in the morning. Then the product began to change, and our expectations haven't. Hence the conflict and confusion.

Gear

[Bigslug]

Well, PBSmith, the question I've got for you is WHICH 4-5 Lyman designs are you interested in?

NOE is replicating a bunch of the old Lyman profiles that will drop to a usable spec with the metals most of us are using now, and they will do it at prices comparable to the Lymans - with the option of 4-5 cavities in RIFLE caliber blocks, hollow points or bases in some cases, and fast-warming aluminum or heat-holding brass.

MP Molds - God of the group buy, and IMO, the best hollow point/base system going. If he's making something you like at the time you want it - AWESOME! (I've only got one (brass 4-C HB Webley), but it's a treasure)

Accurate will cut you what you want, when you order it, to drop at the diameter you want, with the alloy you want, and possibly send it through a time vortex so you get it BEFORE you actually order it. Brass, aluminum, some steel, grooved sprue plates, etc... Lots of Lyman clones in the catalog.

LBT will cut you molds based on pound casts you take of your particular chamber, to cast with the alloy of your choice. Probably the easiest casting molds I've used.

The last two are a bit pricier than a Lyman. ALL four of them are better finished and start dropping good slugs almost immediately, with none of that life-sucking, mallet-whacking frustration that goes on during what I found to be typical Lyman break-in.

Another point to make is that if these outfits clone an old Lyman, they will show a blueprint for it. If you want Elmer Keith's bullets, they can give them to you, without the sneaky reduction of front driving band diameter or alteration of lube grooves - all done while leaving it with the same part number, so you're left HOPING you get a mold that matches the 60 year old one your buddy has (not likely).

So, my question for the current day in age "Why on Earth would you roll the dice with Lyman when the smaller outfits are making better molds and have been HUGELY responsive to our needs?" With NOE and MP, you can get a Mercedes for about the same price as Lyman's VW, and with LBT and Accurate, you upgrade to a custom-ordered Rolls Royce for $40-$60 more. I pretty much regard my Lymans as the "I was younger then" molds. Not likely to buy any more.

[RobS]

A person needs to use what works. I simply do not use current Lyman molds as they do not work for my needs.
(Left) Older 452374 - as cast .454 with WW alloy
(Right) Newer 452374 (5ish years ago) and I had two different molds a 2 cavity and a 4 cavity - as cast .450 with WW alloy
http://i612.photobucket.com/albums/tt206/RobS01/Lyman452374.jpg (http://s612.photobucket.com/user/RobS01/media/Lyman452374.jpg.html)

I cast these particular molds with the same alloy at the same temperature with the same preheat of the molds and the Lyman 452374 from two different time periods resulted in two different diameters. Simple for me, I sent back the new Lyman molds and moved on to molds that cast at the diameter I want with the alloy I use. Considering the particular mold selection(s) above I now own a MiHec 452374 that will cast a .454" boolit from WW alloy and it will also cast some nice 30-70 WW to straight lead HP boolits too.

[Tar Heel]

Agree completely with Larry in post #4. A reference metal was used in the old days (and still is) and Lyman #2 had many formulas to cook it up with using available scrap metals. I think the only source of a good reference metal any more is from a company like Roto whereby they have the resources to produce consistent alloy formulation.

Fussing with the multiple 458 caliber molds I have for the 500+ grain Postell bullets has CLEARLY shown what alloy composition does to bullet size and weight.

With 37 bullet molds in the cabinet, and 24 calibers I cast and load for, I have yet to experience a bullet mold that is "not to spec" with regard to cavity size.

A term that all bullet casters need to understand is VARIATION. No two batches of alloy or bullets produced from those alloys will be precisely the same. I must also add that these differences among batches or a bullet even .001 undersized is probably more accurate than the shooter jerking the trigger. With all the other load variables and their additive error margins, I doubt the micro measurements on bullet diameter really mean anything substantial.

All my molds work just fine. Liquid metal in - bullet falls out.

[1_Ogre]

These self inflating diatribes are starting to get insane. Instead of posting pages and pages of garbage why don't we stay focused. If someone is such an expert and a legend in their own minds, why don't they get off the forum and hang a shingle outside their business and wait for everyone to beat a path to their doors? Ain't gonna happen. We all know to slug a bore and order a mould accordingly, we don't have to beat down Lyman or any of the other manufacturers, just do it right. Lyman specs most of their moulds as dropping with "#2 Alloy" not lead, not w/w, not stick on w/w's. This site's to help, assist, and provide knowledge, not beat on your chest and say "I'm the authority". Come on guys, lets make this site better and keep people here, not run them off with slander and ignorance. Just my 2 cents worth but I'm getting tired of reading page after page of "Look how good I am" posts.

[runfiverun]

well now we opened another can of worms.
we have a new guy here and he has NO CLUE what his gun needs or even that it needs a mold from a custom gun maker.
he sees what appears to be a mold many of us here shoot so buy's it.
when he waits the 6-8 weeks after mailing in 3 box tops and a self addressed stamped envelope, he gets his shiny new mold and puts everythinghe just read here in the meantime to use.
he reluctantly breaks out that 15 dollar roll of solder he bought at the home depot.
and mixes it with the ww alloy he spent 2 days wages on in the S&S section.
he has carefully washed the mold down and is heating it up like everybody said to do.
and the brand spanking new LEE is slowly dripping down into the cookie sheet he read was a great idea to use as a casting catch all.
he has his gloves on and is eager to rip out some boolits so he can show them to his wife [who will just roll her eyes] and buddies at the range.
[who will want 5-k of them for free asap]

so he gets all going along and knocking out the boolits and is starting to see what everyone was talking about as far as the wrinkles and rounded edges go [thinking alright I'm starting to get a handle on this] there's no oatmealy stuff in the pot and these actually look like something.

then he finishes up and wants to get that first boolit done so he has something to show for all this time and effort [and to show the wife he can do s good as those store-bought ones]
he grabs a little lube and smears it in the grooves on a few and sets up his LEE sizer and they just glide right through like butter.
it's now 10 pm and he goes to bed.
the next day he awakens and thinks man I wanna load those boolits but everybody says wait a few days so he does.
Saturday morning arrives and he gets up alittle early so he can load that handful of boolits and go shoot them at the range before taking the wife shopping later in the day.
he gets out there and with a little trepidation loads and fires the first cylinder full the first few shots seem to do pretty good but theres a couple of fliers at the end and he needs to be getting home and put stuff away.
as he is taking the gun out of the case he decides to open the cylinder and sees a sewer pipe in the barrel.
okay so where did he go wrong?
was it in his alloy? [it's the same one the guys on the boolit site all use]
maybe the lube was faulty? [well 6 of the 10 guys recommended it]
the load was too hot, yeah maybe? [4 grs of 231 in the 357 maybe not]

so where does he go to get the information he needs his load book maybe, oh here is my problem I didn't spend 3 dollars a pound buying lino-type.
that should only increase my cost about 30% over just buying the damn things.

we need to be able to present a concise directive answer to these guy's.
and help point out any pit falls we might see with a product but let them make a decision for themselves without the holier than thou attitudes.

[Brithunter]

Well that was entertaining to read..... now I have a radical suggestion to make. Instead of moaning at the mould makers why not get onto the gun manufacturers and insist that they actually make the barrels to the correct spec and quit making them over sized in the bore. they are found of telling how precise CNC machining is so what is their excuse?

[Uncle R.]

runfiverun:

You must have been looking over my shoulder as I first got into the casting game many years ago. You sure spelled out the sequence perfectly. Lee mould, bullets too small, and nasty leading.

I struggled to figure out why my plain base pistol bullets leaded. Based on the books and manuals I had, I sized to bore diameter, and when they leaded I thought they weren't hard enough. I cast them harder and harder trying to eliminate that leading. Eventually I was casting straight linotype, shooting those bullets sized .357 in my model 14 at 750 fps, and still scrubbing lead from the forcing cone.

When I discovered that gas-checked bullets cast and loaded from the same alloy at the same size worked very well indeed I just gave up on plain bases. For years I shot gas checks on everything, including light target loads, because they worked.

It wasn't until I found Cast Boolits just a few years ago that I finally learned what really caused leading, and graduated to plain base pistol loads that shot well and left the barrel clean. I'll always be grateful to some of the "old timers" here for the knowledge they shared, for helping me to understand that harder is not always better, and especially for showing me that fit is king and sizing to bore diameter is seldom the answer.

Uncle R.

[runfiverun]

and sometimes you do have to fix the gun.
but who knows that stuff at 24 with 2 kids at home.
I surely didn't and I talked to Parker Ackley almost every day of my like for a few years.


then I looked at an OM ruger vaquero one day that was having all kinds of issues hitting the broad side of a barn.
I started sticking my calipers into all sorts of orifices and really looking at things.
hmm the brass is too short, these holes are all near 453.
a handful of trimmed down 454 casull brass and a 453 sizer later.
I had a powerful, accurate [for the design] handgun I could rely on and be very useful around the place.
if someone would have told me stuff like that 5 years sooner I woulda kept that 3 screw 44 mag I got for 50 bucks.

[Larry Gibson]

how come my lyman books say they used linotype and not #2 in their rifle boolits if that's what they spec them for.

Your older Lyman books don't say that, only recently in the #4 CBH with the addition of other companies moulds that Linotype and 10-1 alloy has been added. If you bother to read the #4 CBH on page 98 under "Bullets/Moulds" you'll find;

"In order to produce bullets close to the catalogues weight, alloys were selected based on the moulds manufacturer's specifications."

As to what Lyman's moulds are cut to note on page 53 of Lyman's #3 Cast Bullet Handbook;

"Periodically, various groups of mould designs are reviewed to evaluate the validity of basic dimensional specifications. In fact, the entire Lyman line has been reviewed recently. Changes were made, where needed, to accommodate standards found in current production rifles and pistols. Some diameters remained unchanged: some increased and some decreased.

Lyman realized years ago that the diameter of the bullet which dropped from the mould varied with the composition of the bullet metal poured into the mould. Years have passed and the basic law of metallurgy holds just as true today as it did then.

To eliminate confusion - at least internally - Lyman settled on #2 alloy as it's standard bullet metal for centerfire projectiles; pure lead for the muzzleloading balls and conicals - and shotgun slugs too.

It is so today. Standards for Lyman centerfire moulds are based on the use of #2 Alloy. Dimensions of the muzzleloading and shotgun slug designs are predicated on the use of pure lead.

The alloy composition makes a dimensional difference and some bullet casters are slow to understand the subject."

So there it is. To paraphrase Lyman perhaps the enlightened here should read the directions. Yes I understand that "directions are just another man's opinion" but I dare say most of what we learn is based on "another man's opinion" especially when it comes to using that man's product correctly.

Lyman moulds of current production since 1980 (35 years) have been based on the above. Comparing a lot of Lyman moulds made since then with Lyman/IDEAL moulds made before is comparing apples to oranges. Comparing Lyman, RCBS, SAECO and Lee production moulds to custom moulds is also comparing apples to oranges. You don't like Lyman moulds don't buy them and complain.....buy the custom moulds. You want to use an alloy other than #2 and want a different than the nominal diameter specified don't buy a Lyman mould and then complain.....buy the custom mould.

Larry Gibson

[RobS]

....................
Lyman moulds of current production since 1980 (35 years) have been based on the above. Comparing a lot of Lyman moulds made since then with Lyman/IDEAL moulds made before is comparing apples to oranges. Comparing Lyman, RCBS, SAECO and Lee production moulds to custom moulds is also comparing apples to oranges. You don't like Lyman moulds don't buy them and complain.....buy the custom moulds. You want to use an alloy other than #2 and want a different than the nominal diameter specified don't buy a Lyman mould and then complain.....buy the custom mould.

Larry Gibson

Pretty much how I seen it. We can all use whatever works for our needs. If the original poster plans on using #2 alloy or equivalent and likes the nominal diameter specified by a recent production Lyman mould then all the better; it should work out just fine. Should the original poster not want to use this specified alloy then he now knows due to this thread to look toward another make of mould/mold.

[Larry Gibson]

goodsteel

So now Lyman molds cast oversize? Hmmm. A minute ago they cast to spec.

Not what I said. Current Lyman's 457xxx cast to be sized to .458 (read the "sized to" in the Lyman manuals). My Lyman 457xxx moulds cast to .459+ which allows them to be sized correctly although I do use a .459 H&I die.

Look, my 45-70s have .458 diameter grooves. The bullets they like to shoot measure .459-.460. The Lyman molds I have are designated .457XXX and that is precisely what they cast.

And the reason is you don't use #2 alloy. With your shop alloy .457 is what they should cast out at. Try #2 alloy or send the moulds to me to test.

SO!!! Let's just go buy one of Lyman's 460XXX molds. Oh yeah. They never made such a thing.

Oh please excuse us old farts who well remember when Lyman would make any size mould you wanted.....read that they had a "custom shop". I know many TD owners who have older custom Lyman moulds made to drop .462 bullets. You might check out the old catalogues too in which you'll find a 4625560 and a 465451. Never say never.

Now, why would I, an experienced caster who knows what size bullets my rifle likes, go and intentionally learn to cast with an UNDERSIZED MOLD.
See, a 458 groove requires a .459-.460 diameter bullet (at least, in my shop it does). Also, in my shop, I require that the right tool be used for the job.

Then why for heavens sake did you buy a 457xxx mould and then complain because it does not cast, with the wrong alloy, a .460+ bullet? That's like you want a 3/4 ton PU and go buy a 1/2 ton and then complain it won't haul 3/4 ton...........

They fact is that a .457 diameter bullet is not the correct size to be used in a .458 diameter barrel. The fact that the mold is stamped .457 and it actually casts that precise size, doesn't change its inadiquacy for the job, doesn't change the fact that I have to compromise with the tool to get the job done, and doesn't change the fact that our sport is teaming with very very skilled mold makers who listen to what their customers want, stand behind the product they make, and invest incredible amount of care in the product to make sure that it casts within two ten thousandths of an inch of what we specify, and they offer to cut the molds to perform exactly as I desire with any alloy I am likely to use if I so specify when the mold is ordered.

Certainly no disagreement there except if you'd use the right alloy you'd get what you wanted. I've no problem at all with the custom mould makers. They do indeed provide a product that fits in where the production mould makers moulds don't. I have numerous "custom" moulds and am quite happy with them with the exception of two....both cast grossly oversize with the alloy I want to use. However, those two moulds were not designed nor cut for that alloy. so should I trash the makers......should I trash the mould designer (a former member) because the bullets don't turn out the size I want them to? I don't think so because it's my fault for not buying what I really wanted nor paying attention to the specs for the moulds. But then, that's just the me.

I enjoy the era we live in with all its custom makers. Lyman will always be able to be bought in pawnshops across the country, but I seriously doubt Accurate, NOE, or MiHeck will often be found in such a state, because they are the modern day Hensley and Gibbs (the new fangled upstart from yesteryear).

Those custom moulds come up for sale quite regularly on our own for sale site. I'd also bet when the custom makers have made and sold as many molds as Lyman has they'll be as available used in gun shops and pawn shops. I might add another bit of historical note here; Lyman/IDEAL moulds have been made for well over one hundred years. There have been several custom makers in the past such as H&Gs but they didn't last.....Lyman has lasted. Lyman moulds were the only ones really available for a long, long time in this country and kept our sport of cast bullets alive. Yes do enjoy all the selections we have available today, I certainly do. However, I remain a thankful to Lyman for managing to stay in business through thick and thin by providing a very useable product. It may not be always perfect for the enlightened purists we have here but Lyman moulds do cast very useable bullets for probably 99.9% of the cast bullet shooting done by those who cast their own.

I'm investing in these custom molds while I can and Im enjoying the excellence while it is available to me, and I encourage others to do the same.
That's my opinion, and that has no bearing on anyone else's opinion unless they find logic in my thinking.

Excellent logic my friend. So, since you've no need for those disgusting "janky" Lyman moulds you can just send them my way.....heck, Ill even pay for the shipping.......:bigsmyl2:

Larry Gibson

[44man]

To meet weight was considered but the actual amount of boolit diameter from alloy changes is still nil.
You need to take into account the expansion of an alloy with aging of course. More antimony can give a larger boolit. Water dropping and oven hardening is a recent thing, not used long ago. That speeds things up. But expansion of a .30 cal is far less then a .500, what to expect with a .22?
Over the years my experience has been boolits too small so I lapped molds to find you can't keep them round. Some like the Minie' ball worked but if anyone can lap a round boolit there is pixie dust involved. It is like making a sprue plate flat with sandpaper or grit.
I make a mold rounder by putting my cherry in a HOT mold to cut more. You need to understand expansion.
I doubt very much you can cast a .459" or .460" from a .457" mold with an alloy change. You can grow with aging. still minimal.

[MBTcustom]

Good discussion Larry. Thanks!

[kenyerian]

Lyman reloading equipment has served me very well since 1968. Having said that it has been a while since I have bought any molds from them. I really like the Molds I have got from the Group byes . It seems like Lyman hasn't been very aggressive in bringing new products to the Market Place. I have all of the Lyman molds that I need and they are not making anything new that I want.

[Love Life]

From what I've been reading in many different posts on this forum, Lyman moulds in recent times are a krap shoot at best, a lost bloody cause if you don't want hassles. Undersize seems to be the most common complaint. This disappoints me because in past decades I had some great moulds from that company and enjoyed casting very good bullets with them, even when I didn't know what I was doing.

On the list of bullets that I would like to cast are at least four or five Lyman designs, ranging from 311 rifle to 35 rifle and .38/.357 revolver. Is there any hope or trick for getting a new Lyman mould of correct dimensions and decent manufacture, or should I forget it and tell one of the smaller, custom mould-makers what I want? At least one member here has advised to do so.

I don't mind paying the Lyman price for a mould if it casts what it's supposed to cast, but definitely don't want to mess with multiple returns to the factory, lapping, beagle moves, or other desperation/remedial work.

The only hope I can imagine would be buying the mould from a reputable retailer/supplier who is willing to go to bat for the customer and hold Lyman to the fiery furnace if Orange can't provide a spec-correct mould. Does anyone know of such a supplier?

I thought I would take a crack at actually answering your question. Midway USA will take care of you if you get a mould that does not cast to specifications. They did it for me with a Lee and a RCBS.

[PBSmith]

Thanks, all, for your commentary and suggestions. Learned a lot here. Appreciate your sharing of knowledge and experience.

A few of the Lyman designs that I'd like to try are 311041 (presently experimenting with the Laser Cast version), 311291, 311284, 358311, the Ray Thompson 358 double crimp groove number, and the Loverins in 30 cal if I could luck into them. Too many bullets, not enough time.

I intend to explore the custom options.

[Blackwater]

Just wanted to comment that I think this has been a very good discussion on both sides. Businesses DO make decisions, and to stay in business, they HAVE to serve their customers at least acceptably well. That they don't always do this is pretty much a given, but the ones that last, as Lyman has, has to be doing something right.

Yet, no business is perfect simply because the people that run and operate it aren't perfect. Things happen, anomalies occur when a worker is having a bad day, etc. I've had bad molds from both Lyman and Lee, but have been lucky so far with Saeco and RCBS. I try not to get my panties in a wad because I get a mold with problems, and just figure out what's best to do about it - either fix it myself or send it back. So far, I haven't sent any back, but it'll never be out of the question.

There are many variations in guns, even two that come off the assembly line in sequence. Bottom line is, we HAVE to adapt to what we get, and I don't actually see any way to avoid this. However, it very well MAY be minimized.

Part of the problem with that, though, is Lyman's customers. Few know that for a .357, you're not supposed to get .357" lead bullets, but .358's or even .359's. Therein lies what may well be the root of Lyman's legitimate problem. Many casters likely don't resize, and load as cast, and if their bullets run over .357, many will figure the mold is "defective," and send it back.

To a large degree, they're kind'a between a rock and a hard place on the issue of as cast size. Some want no more than .357 and some want .360, and being a successful business, they HAVE to have SOME standard. Since molds can be lapped out, which is a bother but doable, I think they're not wrong in deciding to go to a smallish size. They're really in a no-win situation, in at least some respects, so I kind'a feel for them, even when I get a too small for my gun mold.

Mostly, I just shrug, and lay it aside until I get the time to work on it.

Not all of us are trying to put all our boolits into a single, ragged hole, and those of us who are, are pretty well reconciled, I think, to having to go to custom molds or working on the more common mfg's stuff. It's really kind'a the only game in town, ultimately. And it sure keeps us busy, but that keeps us out'a trouble .... or at least should, pretty well, at least. Saves my wife from having to use the egg money to go my bail with! :bigsmyl2:

[44man]

Actually, Lyman does make molds right to start but it is a decision to sharpen cherries or replace them. What would you do?
Last price for a cherry was long ago, $275. You just can't replace them.
I can't say bad about them because I understand. Tools and machines are a great cost.
Bad things are said about Ruger too but fellas, where would we be without them? I am so stinking happy to have what we have now I can't say it.

[MaryB]

As far as bad molds go... I am sure you all have noticed how hard it has been to find product in stock the last couple years(Thanks Obama...). Companies are pushing as hard as they can to get product out the door and with that mistakes will creep in. Happens in all manufacturing when you push people to work long hours.

[onceabull]

More than a few years ago,after acquiring a 460 W. I went looking for an alternative to factory ammo or jacketed reloads in order to save some wear/tear on the body. the search lead me to Western Cast bullets,whose site was showing me a Lyman 462560 boolit that Jon said would come sized to .458 Now how much effort one of those high school kids he often hired had to put in to get them down to that size I don't know, but they were more than just satisfactory.. Enough so,that I eventually ran down a 2 c Lyman mould that didn't take a full days wages to acquire...It's Marked 462560 all right, but the alloy I used (local w/w +2% Sn)never produced a boolit that big around..as close as I could measure they made .460 easily though...FWIW ,I thought that choice of a mould # was somewhat intriguing... Onceabull

[MaryB]

Mold makers CAN NOT make a mold that will cast to size for every alloy out there. It is impossible! If you change alloys all the time in the search of whatever you are hurting yourself. Learn the basics, use what the mold is designed for then find out what your pet alloy of the day casts at and compare them. If you expect linotype to cast the same size as #2 then you are dreaming.

It is NOT Lymans fault the mold doesn't fit what YOU want. They make molds for the mass market, not specialty and modern gun makers have drifted barrel sizes up as someone else mentioned so what Lyman made to for a rifle 30 years ago may not fit now. If they changed a mold design and it casts under size with #2 return it and tell them! They need feedback from the customer and complaining in a discussion board will not give them that!

[Larry Gibson]

MaryB

Very well said.

Larry Gibson

[Uncle R.]

I recently purchased a brand-new 4 banger 358156. It casts well, no issues, and from my "sorta-close-to-clip-on-wheel-weight" mix the bullets drop around .359 - .3595 and that's not too bad. I lube 'em with a .358 sizer die and they shoot very well. My experience with Lyman pistol moulds has been generally OK.

I did get one 4 cavity Lyman mould a few years ago with an improperly machined sprue plate. The top bevels didn't extend all the way through to make a sharp cutting edge, and the holes were slightly beveled on the bottom as well. Sprues would actually rivet themselves to the plate and had to be pried off with a tool. Pretty poor quality control, but it was an easy fix and it's only happened once in the many Lyman moulds I own.

My experience with Lyman rifle moulds has been spotty. I have more than one Lyman bore-riding rifle design dropping noses that will fall into the rifle muzzle and rattle around. My RCBS bore riders by comparison usually drop noses that will enter the bore with just light finger pressure, which is to say, perfect. For rifle bullets I use a mix that's about midway between #2 and linotype.

I've never used a mould from a custom maker, but based on comments here I'm thinking I should try some.

Uncle R.

[44man]

The hardest thing ever is for me to figure out what size to make a cherry. I have hit it just right several times but I will be the first to admit it was pure luck.
Don't even bring up lathe bored, I can't do it with what I have and you still need to know cavity size.
I don't know how custom mold makers do it because there is some difference in alloys. I still find most is age expanding from antimony.
A boolit that casts larger will not come out of the mold and since some of my hardest alloys still drop a boolit when I open the mold, I have to assume it did not cast larger but cooled and expanded after. I have to ask if you have trouble getting lino type boolits out without beating the mold to death?
Then we get to pure lead that needs to be hotter so the mold is hotter and that will make a boolit smaller so consideration to cutting size has to be accounted for. Pure will need a larger cavity size.
Mold makers have a base metal to work from but to give you any boolit to what you want and use is so hard. With the right size cherry, every mold would need cut with a new one. My aircraft aluminum will dull a cherry.
I made one mistake once and did not harden a cherry. The aluminum ATE that sucker! It was some steel that said I didn't need it, never believe that stuff.
I made archery rests out of titanium and you can't even hand tap the stuff before it gets harder. Aluminum can eat steel too. Maybe why Lee uses butter soft stuff. A lot of their molds are pressed or rolled to shape before cutting.
I made my mold vise from the hardest, highest quality cast iron from risers I bought at a foundry in PA. That stuff burned the best cutters I had. I had to make the big shrooms into rectangles with an angle grinder before I could mill them. Two weeks of work and half the yard rusted. I would dread putting a cherry in a piece.

[Willbird]

In today's world of modern mfg most products have blueprints, and are often measured on Coordinate Measuring Machines. The steel they are using for mold blocks does not vary wildly.

So for a roughly .308 bullet, or .358, or ,452 one should be able to make a direct measurement of at least the base band area of the mold and have a very good idea what size it will cast. So if one has Mold A that casts .310....and Mold B measures the same internal dia, it also should cast a .310 bullet with the same alloy.

Bill

[longbow]

I haven't read all of the posts but this thread seems to be going the way of many on this subject ~ use the alloy the mould manufacturer recommends and cast the way they tell you to and...

Larry is absolutely right on the way Lyman spec's their moulds. They cast to spec with an alloy most don't use or want to use and they cast to a size slightly under what most think is correct so they can size the way they want. That is Lyman's business.

My disappointment with Lyman is that their spec does not suit most of my guns. So, I buy moulds that suit my guns, but I do like Lyman moulds when they work for me.

My question is why wouldn't Lyman spec their moulds to cast large enough in wheelweights to suit the majority of calibers at their largest groove diameter? If they did we could buy Lyman moulds and size down for anything less than oversize barrels and shoot as cast for the big ones.

For the most part we are talking about maybe 2 to 3 thou here and I fail to see why a Lyman 314299 should cast at exactly 0.314" using Lyman #2 alloy when all of my five Lee Enfields have 0.314" groove diameters and like boolits sized to 0.315" or larger. Since my 314299 cast at 0.312" using wheelweights I decided to buy an NOE 316299 that casts a large enough boolit from any alloy I expect to be using to be sized to 0.315".

I am not the only one with these oversize Lee Enfield barrels and that is just one example. Did Lyman design and manufacture this "enlarged" 311299 boolit to suit factory made .303 British sporting guns or the millions of milsurps actually in use?

And to Ideal/Lyman's detriment Ideal manual #38 page 75 states that the 311299 is the standard bullet for .303 British and Ross rifles but size to 0.313" (difficult to do when the mould casts less than 0.311" or maybe 0.312" with #2 alloy) and Lyman Reloading Manual #44 page 77 lists recommended bullets 311466, 311299 and 311284. They do state that groove diameters vary widely and to size to groove diameter as requires but that implies that their moulds will cast enough over stated size to suit those large groove diameter... doesn't it?

Same information is given for 7.65 Argentine and 7.7 Jap but not one mention of the 314299 mould, hmmmmm...

Another example is .44 mag moulds. If you are using a handgun and #2 alloy you may have no complaints but if using a .44 mag Marlin or .444 Marlin you likely do as a boolit casting 0.429" or 0.430" is just not large enough to suit the generous Marlin bores. Mine is 0.4315" groove diameter. I have Accurate and Mihec moulds to suit, Lyman does not make a mould I can use... as far as I know anyway.

To me the complaint is not about Lyman mould quality as much as Lyman specs for the "mass market". Most people simply do not understand that the boolit should be at least 0.001" over groove diameter and in my experience even more is better though I am no authority, that is just my experience and opinion.

It seems to me to be bad marketing on Lyman's part. If Lyman and other large manufacturer's made "what most people wanted" then the variety custom mould makers we have now wouldn't exist, and in fact up to about what, 10 years ago? they didn't. That is all lost business and I think most will agree it is due to the fact that what was available did not suit was most people wanted.

There are obviously extremes to be found so no, I wouldn't expect one mould to fit all examples of gun in a specific caliber but the vast majority of gun barrels will be within a couple thou of each other so a boolit mould casting a thou larger than the largest is maybe 0.003" over the smallest. Not too difficult to size down a couple thou.

In my Lee Enfield example, that is quite common in my experience so a mould casting 0.316" using wheelweights can be sized own to 0.315", 0.314" or even 0.313" quite easily. One that casts 0.313" cannot easily be "sized up" to 0.315". If using #2 alloy it might cast at 0.317" so should still be usable for most common gun barrels.

Everyone is entitled to their opinions and that is mine ~ make me a mould that casts as large as I will likely ever need for the majority of the guns on the market in that caliber using a common alloy like wheelweights then I will size down accordingly to suit alloy and groove diameter. Problem solved. I buy from manufacturers that do that.

Longbow

[Willbird]

I would guess Lyman has plodded along and "made money" at molds all along. There are quite a few custom makers now who make very nice products exactly as you want them. And co like LEE that make a very inexpensive product, might be Lyman is happy with the niche they fall into ?? It has been a LONG time since I really looked their stuff over....but design wise I really like what I am seeing looking right now. The Keith type bullets seem to have devolved back to what Elmer designed (square bottom grease groove on 429421 for example). Making cherries and producing molds with them in a for profit venture is not a lost art anyway...but making the cherries today is no doubt LOTS easier ;-).



Bill

[chevyiron420]

Well, reading all this got me fired up about my 313249 mould so I called Lyman. I was polite, and explained the best I could that the largest boolit the mould will make is with lino at .312. #2 is more like .311. She said it should cast .313 with #2. I told her it wont. At first she tried to dodge by saying the mould was old and out of production, then I explained and showed it isnt. She took my name and number and said she would find out how to handle this and get back to me. We will see.

[44man]

Life is hard and if your wife stayed with you through all your bad times and mistakes, thank the Lord.
I might have been the worst and my mistakes would need the entire encyclopedia to even touch.
Yet we learn from mistakes and anyone that has gone through life will agree.
I will never say bad about anyone with experience. I might be the harshest critic ever too.
I see this post going south, funny saying because red necks are some great people. I am a northern redneck and proud of it.

[10x]

This is one of the most interesting and informative threads I have read.
Just a reminder folks. In gun barrels and molds one size does not fit all. And what it says in the loading manual may not match or be right for your gun. One of my favorite guns is a Savage 30-30 that keyholes with any Bullets sized under 0.310. Getting accuracy from this gun didn't come from a manual. It came from reading the past posts of folks currently in this thread

What I have learned is that mileage varies

My knowledge and skills have expanded considerably since I joined this group and I now cast better Bullets faster. Every one of you folks has been a positive part of my journey

[lightload]

Without verifying, I remember that my early Lyman manuals recommended sizing boolits to groove diameter or .001 over. Other literature from the same era(45-50 years ago)claimed that excessive sizing or reducing boolits down from a much greater diameter to a smaller one was not good for accuracy. Also I recall that at one time in the past Lyman sold undersized versions of some molds and used letter u in the digit code for the molds. My guess is that the idea of fitting boolits to cylinder chambers was not part of their thinking, and from the above statements, my opinion is that Lyman has been slow to change mold dimensions.

[MaryB]

I used to build amateur radio amplifiers. Lot of aluminum drilling and tapping. People never believed me but it DOES eat bits after awhile! And I HATE tapping 4-40 holes in it!


The hardest thing ever is for me to figure out what size to make a cherry. I have hit it just right several times but I will be the first to admit it was pure luck.
Don't even bring up lathe bored, I can't do it with what I have and you still need to know cavity size.
I don't know how custom mold makers do it because there is some difference in alloys. I still find most is age expanding from antimony.
A boolit that casts larger will not come out of the mold and since some of my hardest alloys still drop a boolit when I open the mold, I have to assume it did not cast larger but cooled and expanded after. I have to ask if you have trouble getting lino type boolits out without beating the mold to death?
Then we get to pure lead that needs to be hotter so the mold is hotter and that will make a boolit smaller so consideration to cutting size has to be accounted for. Pure will need a larger cavity size.
Mold makers have a base metal to work from but to give you any boolit to what you want and use is so hard. With the right size cherry, every mold would need cut with a new one. My aircraft aluminum will dull a cherry.
I made one mistake once and did not harden a cherry. The aluminum ATE that sucker! It was some steel that said I didn't need it, never believe that stuff.
I made archery rests out of titanium and you can't even hand tap the stuff before it gets harder. Aluminum can eat steel too. Maybe why Lee uses butter soft stuff. A lot of their molds are pressed or rolled to shape before cutting.
I made my mold vise from the hardest, highest quality cast iron from risers I bought at a foundry in PA. That stuff burned the best cutters I had. I had to make the big shrooms into rectangles with an angle grinder before I could mill them. Two weeks of work and half the yard rusted. I would dread putting a cherry in a piece.

[MaryB]

Well they will either learn and catch up or lose out to the custom guys who know what modern rifles need... and in some cases what our older milsurps need. And I have several Lee molds that believe it or not work just fine.


Without verifying, I remember that my early Lyman manuals recommended sizing boolits to groove diameter or .001 over. Other literature from the same era(45-50 years ago)claimed that excessive sizing or reducing boolits down from a much greater diameter to a smaller one was not good for accuracy. Also I recall that at one time in the past Lyman sold undersized versions of some molds and used letter u in the digit code for the molds. My guess is that the idea of fitting boolits to cylinder chambers was not part of their thinking, and from the above statements, my opinion is that Lyman has been slow to change mold dimensions.

[MBTcustom]

Well they will either learn and catch up or lose out to the custom guys who know what modern rifles need... and in some cases what our older milsurps need. And I have several Lee molds that believe it or not work just fine.

You know, believe it or not, that is precisely why I care about this issue. That ultimatum would be a tragedy for our sport. I don't see anybody else with the staying power to carry us the next 100 years (although NOE is looking very promising).

[MaryB]

So tell them, I am sure they don't read every post here!

[MBTcustom]

They will not listen, because they have a system they think is right and apparently it does work if you use the right alloy and never hunt anything but paper. My mind has been changed. I wanted to know why people are so in love with Lyman when there are other options available, and now I know why. As long as there are lots of shooters out there willing to drop money on #2 alloy instead of a custom mold, Lyman will be in business.
I see now where everybody stands and it's not as backward as I thought. I got a lot out of this discussion (and a few phone calls I made the last two days regarding this subject). Somebody who is trying to get started on the cheap will be frustrated with Lyman molds, but the solution is, they need to spend money on Lyman #2 alloy which is going for well over $3 per pound on Rotometals right now ($15.49 for 5 pounds as a matter of fact. That's 18 cents per shot in my 400 grain 45-70 bullets.).

Just to help close the gap for people stuck in this situation like the OP, I posted a tutorial thread on how to help get that Lyman mold to work for you:
http://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?295690-How-to-tame-that-beat-up-old-mold

[mac266]

... they need to spend money on Lyman #2 alloy which is going for well over $5 per pound on Rotometals right now ($15.49 for 5 pounds as a matter of fact. That's 29 cents per shot in my 400 grain 45-70 bullets. Same as shooting jacketed 30 caliber).


Math check: That's only a smidgen over $3 per pound, not $5 as you claim.

[DrDucati]

18¢ per

[jonp]

The problem with all of them was the "to spec" was the owners/buyer's idea of what the spec was supposed to be. Lyman cuts their moulds to their spec's with #2 alloy being what most are cut for.

I think Larry has hit the nail on the head.

[Hickok]

I own molds from Lyman, RCBS, Lee and custom molds, as most others here do.

So from what I gather reading here on "Cast Boolits", Lyman specs are for #2, RCBS mold specs for rifle boolits is Linotype, and Lee specs for their molds is COWW.

Maybe I am wrong on this, but I would think most casters probably use some form of COWW for their alloy. Seems Lee has made a good and logical business decision as to what to spec their molds to, and offer a low price to boot!.

I realize Lee uses aluminum and Lyman and RCBS use steel in their molds, and they use different boring/cutting process than Lee.

Now when I check custom mold makers, their prices for a comparable one or two cavity mold are in line with what Lyman and RCBS charge. But the custom mold will be made to meet your specs.

I am not saying which is best for anyone, just laying out some thoughts to ponder. Things to think about when ordering a new mold that will meet YOUR requirements, and give you satisfaction and value for your hard earned money.

[dudel]

I own molds from Lyman, RCBS, Lee and custom molds, as most others here do.

So from what I gather reading here on "Cast Boolits", Lyman specs are for #2, RCBS mold specs for rifle boolits is Linotype, and Lee specs for their molds is COWW.


According to Lee mold instructions, their spec is:

All bullet weights for Lee bullets are given using a 1 to 10 lead/tin mix, except Round Balls and Minies. These are designed to use pure lead.

[Hickok]

According to Lee mold instructions, their spec is:

All bullet weights for Lee bullets are given using a 1 to 10 lead/tin mix, except Round Balls and Minies. These are designed to use pure lead.Thanks Dudel, I stand corrected on that. COWW should cast slightly larger than the 10/1 which is good.

[MBTcustom]

Math check: That's only a smidgen over $3 per pound, not $5 as you claim.
Dang, you're right. My bad, I corrected it.

[dudel]

Thanks Dudel, I stand corrected on that. COWW should cast slightly larger than the 10/1 which is good.

No problem Hickok. It does beg the question, why mold makers can't standardize on one alloy for size and weight!

[HangFireW8]

Without verifying, I remember that my early Lyman manuals recommended sizing boolits to groove diameter or .001 over. Other literature from the same era(45-50 years ago)claimed that excessive sizing or reducing boolits down from a much greater diameter to a smaller one was not good for accuracy. Also I recall that at one time in the past Lyman sold undersized versions of some molds and used letter u in the digit code for the molds. My guess is that the idea of fitting boolits to cylinder chambers was not part of their thinking, and from the above statements, my opinion is that Lyman has been slow to change mold dimensions.

Good point. You are the first one to identify WHY Lyman sizes so small. And not just any literature, but research articles by Col. E H Harrison for the NRA, later compiled into the book Cast Bullets. Research found that the more sizing, the less accuracy, and the bore sized boolits could shoot better, and not lead.

I have verified this with my own rifles.

Harrison was not the first, either. Sharpe railed against The Rule (as he called it) that boolits had to be .003" or more over. And again he verified this with his own rifles. He traced The Rule back to variable 92 Krag barrels and lack of proper slugging.

My only beefs with Lyman is the changing cherry shapes, and my opinion that a 311041 labeled mold should cast to .311 not .308.

[Larry Gibson]

They will not listen, because they have a system they think is right and apparently it does work if you use the right alloy and never hunt anything but paper. My mind has been changed. I wanted to know why people are so in love with Lyman when there are other options available, and now I know why. As long as there are lots of shooters out there willing to drop money on #2 alloy instead of a custom mold, Lyman will be in business.

We may think we, here at this forum, should be the biggest users of moulds and casting equipment. However, we are not. We are a very small minority of the "business". Custom mould makers take very little business away from the major manufacturers. It's the same as with rifles; how much impact do you really think custom rifle makers have on the factories.....not enough that they only pay passing thoughts to. Custom makers of rifles do influence the market over a long term and the factories will eventually produce rifles of similar style.

It's the same with moulds. Lyman at one time had a very good custom shop and would make any kind of mould castors would dream up. All it took was money. They found there wasn't enough business in the custom end to be profitable on their scale of business so they closed it down. Lyman does still pay attention to trends in the custom end and what the writers think they want. They have come up with BP, silhouette and modern designs the past few years. They standardized on #2 alloy and their own specs because that is what the majority of their customers buy regardless of our "expertise" and wishes. I doubt the custom makers take than much business away from them. How many moulds of any make, even used ones, have you seen on dealers shelves in this century? Not very many and when you do see them available they have orange or green boxes and they don't stay on the shelves that long. Check midway or any of the rest of the mail order places and you'll find most Lyman, RCBS, SAECO and most Lee moulds are on "back order".

If Lyman wasn't selling all the moulds they can make they would change. For the minority of "expert" casters here they don't see any profit in changing regardless if "our way" is better or not. It's the bottom line that counts and "our way" is not the bottom line. We are what the gun writers and factory owners called "cranks" back in the day........

Larry Gibson

[Mal Paso]

I started with 2 Lyman 4 cavity 429421 molds which Lyman infers will cast .431" with Lino as they list that die with the mold. I also started with Lino and #2 from Rotometals and still had trouble getting a .430" base band. Both molds had a .0025" smaller front band and were totally different production runs so I assumed the molds were correct. I have since Lymented one of the molds but I dug the unaltered mold out last night and the base band is .431 Actual. Not even enough for a clean .430" in Lino.

I started lurking on Cast Boolits to find out how The Lyman Sizer was going to make the Lyman bullets large enough to fill the Lyman dies. Figured I was using something wrong.

I got in on the first NOE 429421 group buy. Velocity went up 90 fps same powder, primer, brass and leading was greatly reduced.

I just did a check of Midway. Of 30 lead 44 Mag bullets 27 were .430", 2 were .431" and 1 200g RNFP was .429. It's well accepted that .001-2 over groove is the sweet spot for 44 Mag.

Lyman's Fourth Edition Cast Bullet Handbook proved it again sizing all their handgun 44 Mag bullets .429" They have higher charge weights and lower velocities than any other manual even allowing for the 4" barrel.

Lyman used 21.7g of A#9 to get a 429421 to 1229 fps from a 4" barrel, universal receiver, says .429 who needs to slug? Too old to notice when they pass gas?

I just used 20g of A#9 to get a 15g heavier Keith to 1286 fps from a 4" barrel with a .006" cylinder gap. Pretty sure 21.7 will get me well past 1400 fps.

Larry ain't getting my unaltered mold. It's proof to myself where I started and how far I've come. and maybe I'll get 44 WCF someday.

[Larry Gibson]

They will not listen, because they have a system they think is right and apparently it does work if you use the right alloy and never hunt anything but paper. My mind has been changed. I wanted to know why people are so in love with Lyman when there are other options available, and now I know why. As long as there are lots of shooters out there willing to drop money on #2 alloy instead of a custom mold, Lyman will be in business.

We may think we, here at this forum, should be the biggest users of moulds and casting equipment. However, we are not. We are a very small minority of the "business". Custom mould makers take very little business away from the major manufacturers. It's the same as with rifles; how much impact do you really think custom rifle makers have on the factories.....not enough that they only pay passing thoughts to. Custom makers of rifles do influence the market over a long term and the factories will eventually produce rifles of similar style.

It's the same with moulds. Lyman at one time had a very good custom shop and would make any kind of mould castors would dream up. All it took was money. They found there wasn't enough business in the custom end to be profitable on their scale of business so they closed it down. Lyman does still pay attention to trends in the custom end and what the writers think they want. They have come up with BP, silhouette and modern designs the past few years. They standardized on #2 alloy and their own specs because that is what the majority of their customers by regardless of our "expertise" and wishes. I doubt the custom makers take than much business away from them. How many moulds of any make, even used ones, have you seen on dealers shelves in this century? Not very many and when you do see them available they have orange or green boxes and they don't stay on the shelves that long. Check midway or any of the rest of the mail order places and you'll find most Lyman, RCBS, SAECO and most Lee moulds are on "back order".

If Lyman wasn't selling all the moulds they can make they would change. For the minority of "expert" casters here they don't see any profit in changing regardless if "our way" is better or not. It's the bottom line that counts and "our way" is not the bottom line. We are what the gun writers and factory owners called "cranks" back in the day........

Larry Gibson

[Larry Gibson]

Mal Paso

Larry ain't getting my unaltered mold.

Awe come on......I can always use another Lyman 429421 as I stupidly let mine go awhile back in a trade. I use the RCBS 44-255-KT and it drops at .429+ with COWWs +2%, right at .430 with #2 and .430+ with lino.....shoots pretty good in my four 44s also. I size at .430 for 3 of them but the Colt Anaconda needs them sized at .429. :bigsmyl2:

Larry Gibson

[MBTcustom]

Lyman used 21.7g of A#9 to get a 429421 to 1229 fps from a 4" barrel, universal receiver, says .429 who needs to slug? Too old to notice when they pass gas?


That's funny right there, I don't care who you are! LOL!

[Blackwater]

A lot of the statements here are due to the change in attitude to the modern "Wal Mart/Burger King" attitude that so pervades our land now. In the past, folks just accepted that things produced might need some tinkering to get them to be "perfect" for what we wanted to do with them. Nowadays, a few seem to want and expect whatever they buy to be perfect for their individual guns, and guns DO vary, so .... there's probably no way ANY company, established or custom, can ever quite accomplish that fully. Most don't know WHAT they want or need until they try a mold, and then, if it's not giving them the right results they expected, it's the mold maker's fault. I've worked in retail before, and there were a couple of instances where I just had to tell a chronic complainer that I didn't need or want, and couldn't afford his business. I'd bent over backwards to please him, and finally, just decided cutting my losses was best for me, and I didn't really care what was best for him any more. Another customer who overheard our exchange just smiled, and said, "I'm glad you did that. He's never been anything but trouble for anyone he's ever dealt with." That made me feel an awful lot better about turning a customer away!

Still, there ARE legitimate gripes we all have, and undersized molds DO happen. At least we can send them back or lap them out, at our own discretion. I have one I still need to do that to and just haven't gotten my round tuit to do yet.

We live in a time of great plenty, and don't seem to appreciate it. Yeah, there are foul ups sometimes, but ... if we completely forget to be thankful for what we DO have, we're losing our grip on reality, and that'll never serve us well. There's a balance that needs to be struck on both customer and company sides, and that's probably the hardest thing for all of us to do, on BOTH sides of the counter. We just have to keep trying.

Poor ol' Lyman is in the position that they'd get complaints and sendbacks if they produce
"oversized" molds and just as many for the undersized ones. That's a Catch 22 if I've ever seen one! I like the oversized molds, like most here, but I DO want Lyman to stay in business, and most folks today don't have any real clue what size they need, but they CAN use a mike and measure them, and if they're not the same size as J-bullets, many think the oversized bullets will cause higher pressures, and "might blow the gun up." There's really no way Lyman can cure this today, so .... I'm just glad they do what they can. It's really not exactly a well-informed or knowledgeable group they're dealing with in creating molds today. So I must admit I DO feel for them, but want my molds "right," too, so ... mostly have gone to NOE now. It's not Lyman's fault they're dealing with a largely clueless clientele. And besides, NOE molds, at least so far, haven't needed any real tuning to get them to work right, and though I'm retired, my time's still worth something to me.

Water, when you pour it in a glass, sill slosh up one side and then the other, but it always levels out over time. I suspect the situation with the sizing of molds will also, and I suspect the complaints are in the process of being heeded as we speak. Might sometimes take a change in management, and with all the Harvard MBA's and wannabe's out there running various companies into the ground now, it may take the stockholders' seeing lagging sales to make someone eventually find out why sales are slipping, and force mgt. to do something about it.

Producing technical products is always a challenge. I'm just thankful Lyman has given us what they have over the years, and Lee as well, and all the others, too. Good competition ALWAYS has a beneficial effect on production. Either that, or those companies that don't respond are left on the dustheap of history. It'll work out that way with Lyman, too, I suspect, but it still might take some time. Right now, I'm a lot more worried about whether Hillary goes in or not, so that kind'a keeps my perspective a bit more balanced than it might otherwise be. YMMV, of course.

[MaryB]

My home grown #2 is running $1 pound... not hard to come up with if you download the alloy calculator. I have pure lead(reminds me, I have a 30 pound block to smelt), linotype, pewter, solder, wheel weights, and foundry type that I have collected over the years. I can blend up whatever I need and since I mainly use cast for my pistols at the range it goes a long ways! I also cast for my Mosin Nagant(Type 53 too) with "The Load" for low recoil range fun and even some limited hunting. Took a coyote 2 weeks ago with the Type 53 after the AR-15 iced up and refused to run(hunting in freezing drizzle is soooo fun but the coyote was killing a friends chickens).

Start collecting lead, buy at around $1 or less(most of my wheel weights have been free, local tire shop at the co-op gives them to me, I drop off a pizza and a 12 pack now and then). I will pay $2 pound for foundry type and linotype because you use so little to get a decent alloy. Watch for clinics and hospitals remodeling, lead sheeting off the walls is pure(stinky to smelt!) and makes a good base or trading material for type lead.



They will not listen, because they have a system they think is right and apparently it does work if you use the right alloy and never hunt anything but paper. My mind has been changed. I wanted to know why people are so in love with Lyman when there are other options available, and now I know why. As long as there are lots of shooters out there willing to drop money on #2 alloy instead of a custom mold, Lyman will be in business.
I see now where everybody stands and it's not as backward as I thought. I got a lot out of this discussion (and a few phone calls I made the last two days regarding this subject). Somebody who is trying to get started on the cheap will be frustrated with Lyman molds, but the solution is, they need to spend money on Lyman #2 alloy which is going for well over $3 per pound on Rotometals right now ($15.49 for 5 pounds as a matter of fact. That's 18 cents per shot in my 400 grain 45-70 bullets.).

Just to help close the gap for people stuck in this situation like the OP, I posted a tutorial thread on how to help get that Lyman mold to work for you:
http://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?295690-How-to-tame-that-beat-up-old-mold

[scottfire1957]

So. There are 6 pages about a guy who has never used a Lyman mould. Cool!

Hey, I've never used an RCBS mould, I have heard bad things! Should I get one?

[RobS]

So. There are 6 pages about a guy who has never used a Lyman mould. Cool!

Hey, I've never used an RCBS mould, I have heard bad things! Should I get one?

Sure but start your own thread. :kidding:

[44man]

What are expectations? I need a .459" boolit so would I buy a .457-340 from Lee or a 457193 from Lyman? RCBS says .458+. I still need .459. Will they be there?
Rapine made molds to the size you need so you could get a .460". You can buy boolits to fit and custom molds to fit. But when a mold says .457, what do you expect?

[RobS]

I expect to purchase a mold that cast the diameter I want with the alloy I want to use which means I typically do not use production molds i.e. as in example your situation with as cast diameter .457". I also go with a mold that is made by a reputable maker to produce the diameter I want with the alloy I use.

.......Or I may go on the hunt and order a production mold, understand it may work or may not and I will then choose to send it back or modify.

[MBTcustom]

when a mold says .457, what do you expect?

Well seeing as how there's hardly a rifle on the planet that could use a mold that actually drops bullets that size? not much.

One thing about Lyman molds is that they can often be bought second hand for low money, so I'll snag one, do what I have to to make it work, and see how I like the bullet design. If it's awesome, then I'll get Accurate to cut me a four cavity brass that drops round bullets of the correct size. No problemo.
That is exactly what I am planning to do with the mold shown in the thread I linked earlier.

[FredBuddy]

I've learned a ton of stuff on this site. Armed with the knowledge from all of you fine folks, I ordered the Lyman 457191 a few weeks ago, without fear or trepidation. Sure enough, it casts at .457, and the boolits fall out on opening! Powder coated up to .462 and loaded into unsized brass, they fit and cycle just fine in my 1895 Cowboy. They make nice, tidy groups and as a bonus, shoot as well in my neighbor's Lyman (falling block?).

Wonder how they will work paper patched? Love that confetti !

Thanks, everybody!

[Larry Gibson]

Before I "knew better" I shot a lot of 457483s and Lee C457-500-FNs sized at .457 through my Siamese Mauser (.457 groove diameter) at velocities from 1400 - 2300 fps w/o leading and with excellent accuracy. Then when I found out they just had to be oversize I started shooting them sized at .459. With the .459 sized bullets I still had excellent accuracy (no better though) and no leading. Then I "learned they had to be .003 over groove diameter or I would get horrible leading and horrible accuracy. So when I got a .4615 sizer for my TD I sized them as cast and lubed them in that in that die because they were no .4615 as cast. Still got the same excellent accuracy and no leading..........so now I just shoot my own cast (Lee 459-405-HB, Rapine 460500, Rapine 460250 and Rapine 460210HB) and commercial cast sized from .457 to as cast as large as .464 without worrying about it.......

Larry Gibson

[Cast Bullet Engineering]

Very interesting thread, thought I'd post my few comments on a recent test I completed.

I've also just completed a pretty mammoth trial of alloys vs. weight vs. diameter and came up with some interesting observations.
This sort of work as been done before, so it's not anything new at all, but I just wanted to run the trial myself.

I started with a 25 cal, a 30 cal, a 458 cal and a 12 gauge mould, not all CBE moulds, but a mix of makers, iron, brass, aluminium as well.
I have 5 alloys currently, and they are pure lead, a 20-1 lead/tin mix, standard COWW (clip on wheel weights), my usual BHN 15 alloy (like Lyman #2) and linotype.
I cast 30-40 good projectiles from the 4 moulds with the 5 alloys.
I then picked out only by eye, 10 good projectiles that were well filled out, no marks etc, I also individually numbered them all for later reference if needed.
Then all 200 projectiles were weighed on a digital scale and measured to 4 decimal places with a digital mic.
Here's the results, and it explains why we get weight and diameter variations just by changing alloy's.
I was also happy to find that my bottom pour method of casting kept the weights from between 0.3% and 1.5% of the average weights)
(All weights and diameters below are the average of the 10 projectiles.)

25 cal mould, marked as 80 grains and .257" dia.

Pure lead - Avg weight - 81.24 grains, avg dia - .2549"
COWW - Avg weight - 80.32 grains, avg dia - .2560"
20-1 - Avg weight - 79.43 grains, avg dia - .2565"
BHN 15 - Avg weight - 79.15 grains, avg dia - .2570"
Linotype - Avg weight - 74.89 grains, avg dia - .2572"

30 cal mould, marked as 200 grains and .311" dia.

Pure lead - 201.4 grns and .3093"
COWW - 199.9 grns and .3103"
20-1 - 196.88 grns and .3104"
BHN 15 - 195.78 grns and .3112"
Linotype - 185.86 grns and .3113"

458 cal mould, marked as 460 grains and .459" dia.

Pure Lead - 472.46 grns and .4584"
COWW - 470.77 grns and .4594"
20-1 - 462.03 grns and .4597"
BHN 15 - 459.21 grns and .4604"
Linotype - 435.97 grns and .4604"

12 gauge mould, marked as 780 grains and .735" dia.

Pure Lead - 794.88 grns and .7337"
COWW - 789.78 grns and .7362"
20-1 - 785.86 grns and .7368"
BHN 15 - 773.81 grns and .7371"
Linotype - 748.12 grns and .7380"

After all that, if you use COWW as the standard and called it "Zero" for want of a better term, then -

A projectile made from pure lead will be 0.73% heavier and 0.33% smaller in diameter.
A projectile made from a 20-1 alloy will be 1.24% lighter and 0.09% larger in diameter.
A projectile made from a BHN 15 alloy will be 2.00% lighter and 0.25% larger in diameter.
A projectile made from Linotype alloy will be 6.61% lighter and 0.31% larger in diameter.

DC

[Larry Gibson]

DC

Excellent post, hard to argue with a test and figures like that. It answers the question.

Larry Gibson

[44man]

Time to measure not listed. I am sure out of mold is smaller then the cavities but cooled to touch might already have expanded. My .476 mold has boolits lubed and sized as such but will be .478" after time.
Some say they size .457" boolits at .460" so I need the magic wand.

[TXGunNut]

Love these threads, lots of good info if you look for it. These days I prefer custom moulds from NOE or Accurate but sometimes I want a Lyman mould. Before I ordered my last two Lyman moulds (375449 and 380681) I spent a bit of time with their #4 manual and on their website. I was very familiar with both rifles and only ordered after carefully comparing Lyman's drawings with dimensions from my rifles. These two moulds worked out great but I have a certain 45 caliber rifle around here somewhere that I'm still working on after a few years. Maybe I need to go back to the drawing board on that rifle; I came to this board awhile back when I was frustrated by this rifle but have moved on to other things.
I have barely a fraction of the experience of some of the folks who have posted here but can offer this little tidbit: the chances of getting what you need in a mould increase exponentially if and only if you know what you and your rifle need. Determining what your rifle needs has very little to do with what works for someone else's rifle. Even when armed with all the pertinent data from your rifle a mould choice can still be a trial & error situation but that keeps it interesting, if a bit frustrating.

[runfiverun]

so from that chart/test.
going from [approx. ww's with a little tin, alloy] to linotype gains you 2-3 ten thousandths of an inch.
or from 3086 to 3088 or 89 my 310 sizer wouldn't even notice that.
and a mold specced as a 311 designation [with lino-type] would just keep on making things smaller and smaller but should easily make 310 with the 15 bhn alloy or the ww alloy.
someone should send lyman an e-mail and point this out to them.

[44man]

PC would cure a lot.
I did the same as larry, shooting tons of groove size boolits with no problems. However my Browning needs larger and .460" is best but I also made molds to .464" since a pound fit said I could chamber. I really seen no difference. But .457" refuses to shoot.
The best groups I ever seen a 45-70 rifle shoot was from an original trap door and a rolling block with the Rapine .460". They also shot my .459" revolver boolits but all guns I have shot did not like the 457193 or Lee 457-405-f.
My friends Pedersoli Sharps does decent with the Postel, it casts larger and his Sharps has a choked barrel.

[nicodiesel]

i am new to the forums but being casting for several years. i have used RCBS, LEE, LYMAN.......using w/w. they always droped right on or a bit over. but here in canada with US Dollar exchange now cost more for a Lyman mould than getting a custom made one from Boomer's mould in Saskachewan. So i just order what i need with all the specs i want. and i really think that buying moulds is like buying cars, if you are not happy with the quality/service of a certain brand you can choose many other ones.

[avogunner]

Just to reiterate what others have said but threads like these are the ones I get smarter with. Good back/forth, different opinions hashed out = knowledge gained. Thanks gents.

[Ken in Iowa]

When I started casting boolits, my only experience had been round ball. Since I had several Lyman handles, Lyman was an obvious choice.

After several attempts, I've pretty well given up. For example, the 38 Special .358 moulds that I tried were worthless. One dropped beautiful .356 boolits. Another wadcutter mould dropped .361 with 1-2-97 alloy.

I tried RCBS and was not disappointed. 38 moulds dropped .3585 and 45 moulds .454. NOE came next. Wonderful products! Both companies will see more of my business.

[chevyiron420]

Wish I had that wadcutter mould. It would be great in my 38S&W.