To turn or to ream, that is the question . . .

[Ken77539]

My supply of 7.65 Argentine brass is dwindling, so I have taken the opportunity to try and learn how to re-size brass. I have re-sized some 30-06 cases for the 7.65. I pulled the bullets from some 1940's era Mil-Surp ammo I bought from Sears some 40 odd years ago that I had a number of FTF issues with to use in these newly re-sized brass cases. All looked good until I tried to chamber the new cartridge and it would not fit. A side by side eyeballing comparison with an original cartridge did not detect anything unusual, so I broke out the old caliper and found the necks to be a tad bit "too thick" - hence my question:

Which would be the "preferable" or more common method of reducing the neck wall thickness in applications of this sort - turning the outside of the neck, or reaming out the inside. I probably could just go out and buy some new 7.65 brass, but I really want to learn how to properly reform brass. Any guidance or suggestions would be greatly appreciated.

[GRUMPA]

I read this earlier and it's teetering on a question like: Which is best....putting on your left shoe first or the right shoe first.

I use a reamer, but I do way more than you probably ever will. Not to mention I use a lathe and I've never done reaming on a trimmer. If I were you I would look at it this way.....Your only going to be getting a reamer to do a few of what you need, in the end your limited to what the reamer can do.

Now if you get a neck turner....your going to be able to turn the neck, but your not going to be limited to just that 1 type of case. The pilots are pretty cheap and you can get a new, different sized pilot to turn the necks on whatever else you like to shoot.

My .02

[vzerone]

All I can say you must have one heck of a tight chamber because I've owned quite a few 7.65 rifles in both the 1891's (including the short barrel carbines) and 1909's. In fact I have a pretty pristine 1909 rifle with almost new barrel. The groove on that barrel is .3110. With all that said I've never had to turn necks using sized down 06 cases military or commercial, and also 270's.

Now my take on reaming or neck turning. My opinion is unless you have a special dies for use with a reamer I don't believe you get as consistent neck thicknesses as a good neck turner. I'm talking this many decimal places .0000. As Grumpa said you'll find more uses for the neck turner in other calibers.

Why don't you take one of those rounds and black marker pen the entire case and trying chambering to see where it's too large. Often, especially since there is a difference between 7.65 Argentine sizer dies and 7.65 Belgium dies. What brand dies you have?

[fivefang]

please do not forget a chamber cast first,military chambers are quit big, & cast boolits do not need any blowby as they enter the throatin other words create your own Match Chamber using a outside neck turner IF NEEDED

[country gent]

Neck turning is quicker and easier. Neck turning can produce very accurate neck wall thickness and very consistant, if not right it can produce or leave a ring or doughnut at the base of the neck. And setting them up to exactly what you want need can be time consuming. I used a die in the press for neck reaming and hand turn the reamer. Ive never tried the trimmer reamers or turners. I buy a hand decimil reamer the size I need made for cutting brass ( normally an odd number flutes and difrent cutting edge geometry to keep from grabbing). This will give you size needed easy with little set up.

[tygar]

I used reamers back in the 60s-70s for 06 into 25-06 until I could get 25-06 factory (cost & availability).

I still have the as new (Forster, I think) set up in my shop from 40 years ago. Got a outside neck turner & would never go back. As said above just get a new pilot & do a different size. Have a couple different makes. Sinclair & RCBS I think. Both good.

[EDG]

I have 5 7.65 Mausers and use reformed SL-54 US GI brass in all of them.

I suspect that you did not get the shoulder pushed back far enough. If you are using Lee dies they will not push the shoulder back since they are about .010 too long.

You can easily measure your chamber by expanding an unfired 30-06 or 7.65 case mouth to an oversize trumpet shape- maybe .030 oversize.
Then push this case into the chamber with the bolt and pull it back out. The chamber neck will be squeezed down at the mouth to the neck diameter.
Measure that diameter and compare it to your ammo. It should show the chamber neck is plenty large enough for your ammo.

If it turns out that you need to thin the neck I much prefer a neck turner.

The turner is adjustable and by changing pilots you can use it on any caliber by changing pilots

A reamer only cuts one size and it can only follow the existing bore. It cannot eliminate uneven case necks.

[vzerone]

I have 5 7.65 Mausers and use reformed SL-54 US GI brass in all of them.

I suspect that you did not get the shoulder pushed back far enough. If you are using Lee dies they will not push the shoulder back since they are about .010 too long.

You can easily measure your chamber by expanding an unfired 30-06 or 7.65 case mouth to an oversize trumpet shape- maybe .030 oversize.
Then push this case into the chamber with the bolt and pull it back out. The chamber neck will be squeezed down at the mouth to the neck diameter.
Measure that diameter and compare it to your ammo. It should show the chamber neck is plenty large enough for your ammo.

If it turns out that you need to thin the neck I much prefer a neck turner.

The turner is adjustable and by changing pilots you can use it on any caliber by changing pilots

A reamer only cuts one size and it can only follow the existing bore. It cannot eliminate uneven case necks.

That's exactly what I was suggesting EDG that the cases weren't sized enough. Glad to see someone else agrees with that. We'll see what his marker penned cases show if he does it and posts.

[Ken77539]

. . .Often, especially since there is a difference between 7.65 Argentine sizer dies and 7.65 Belgium dies. What brand dies you have?

Lee Pacesetter die set - 7.65 x 53mm Argentine Mauser, followed up by a Lee 7.65 x 53 FCD to finish things up.

I have the Lyman neck turner with the Mauser pilot already - just wasn't sure if reaming would be a more beneficial route to take. Next time out I'll black out a case and see what becomes of that. Will post pix and results as soon as I get them done. Thanks all!

[MarkP]

I prefer reaming the I.D. I feel a spiral fluted reamer works better as compared to a straight fluted reamer.

[williamwaco]

I prefer reaming.

Many of the bench rest shooters insist turning is better.

I can get .5 MOA with .22-250 cases made from 7.62 NATO.

That is good enough for me.

[leadman]

I have been reforming 7.65 brass for about 34 years and have 2 1891s with NOS barrels and have not had to turn or ream for any of them. I suspect the same as was posted before, the shoulder is not properly formed.
You can try placing a .020" feeler gauge under the case in the shellholder and full length sizing again. remember to raise the decapper rod up so it doesn't go thru the feeler gauge, or take the gauge out of the holder and place the hole end under the case. If this doesn't work anneal from the just below the shoulder up and size again.
If that fails send the cases to me and I will use my trim die to form them and anneal them using heat paint to obtain proper temperature.
With the generous chambers in these rifles it is actually better to have the thick necks to take up some of the space in the neck area.

[AggieEE]

country gent is right about the neck donut. You can avoid that by neck turning at the next larger cal size, i.e. 8mm or .303 for the .308. Make sure you touch the shoulder with the neck turner. Then when you finish size maybe a light touch up and you're good to go.

[vzerone]

One of the many things I do when forming a case from a different caliber is after I've sized it and trimmed it to length, is try the empty case in my chamber. If it's good to go then I try a dummy round with the bullet I intend to us. If that is good to go I'm okay to start loading that case.

That shim under the case is a good trick that I've used. You can also try camming over the press fairly hard as sometimes you just need a little bit more sizing that shoulder back. If neither of those two work you can try different shell holders as they are all not created with the same dimensions. If that doesn't work they you can take a little metal off the top of the shell holder. Some like to take it off the bottom of the die, but I say it's cheaper to buy a shell holder then the dies. Just make sure you don't push the shoulder too far back. Size a little and check fit.

[Don Fischer]

I think either way would be good. Only reaming I ever did was with some 30-06 case's to 6.5. I did inside but did it on re-sized cases. Stupid! The reamer was the same dia as a 6.5 bullet and the things wouldn't hold the bullet's! Finding out was amazing. I primed the case's put powder in and when I put in a bullet, it simply slid into the case. Ream fired case's, not re-sized!

[Ken77539]

. . . . . I suspect that you did not get the shoulder pushed back far enough. If you are using Lee dies they will not push the shoulder back since they are about .010 too long.

You hit the nail right on the head with the shoulder length. I took a fresh 30-06 case and trimmed it down to the "trim to" length of the 7.65's, ran it through my sizer die, trimmed it one more time, then put it back in the sizer but this time slipped a feeler gauge between the shell holder and case head, gradually working up to where the empty case would chamber and my bolt would close. The magic number, 0.010"! I followed this up by seating a bullet in the empty case and chambering it again. The bolt cammed over with no problem. Thanks to all who helped expand my education!

Guess it's time to start loading now.

[EDG]

Ken
In this forum I recently posted about 7.65X53 Mauser chambers, dies, ammo and facotory brass.
You might take a look at it. I post most of the info I have in one place so you can see the differences in the dies that I have.

Other than the length the Lee size seems to be ok in all other dimensions. You might get some one to face your die off with a carbide tool in a lathe.

If you resized the same case over and over you probably got more movement of the shoulder than just .010.
The repeated sizing operations give the brass more time to creep and take a set that more exactly matches the die.
If you size a case fast just once it will be a little longer than cases sized slowly and sized multiple times.



You hit the nail right on the head with the shoulder length. I took a fresh 30-06 case and trimmed it down to the "trim to" length of the 7.65's, ran it through my sizer die, trimmed it one more time, then put it back in the sizer but this time slipped a feeler gauge between the shell holder and case head, gradually working up to where the empty case would chamber and my bolt would close. The magic number, 0.010"! I followed this up by seating a bullet in the empty case and chambering it again. The bolt cammed over with no problem. Thanks to all who helped expand my education!

Guess it's time to start loading now.

[Frank46]

Used some 1955 Israeli 8mm cases to form into 7.65 argy. Sized them in a RCBS 7.65 argy form and trim die. Cut to length and have an old Forster case trimmer with a .311 reamer. Run the reamer in past the neck cause when setting the shoulder back you are into thicker brass. Then partially F/L size and see how they fit. Usually it takes a couple trips through the F/L sizer so that when you close the bolt you have some feel as when the case is chambered. Load and shoot with your favorite bullet/powder then neck size. Still have about 200 cases left out of about 500. Frank

[vzerone]

I would take some off the shell holder, it's a cheaper part to buy and doesn't altar the die. You may be able to take the shell holder down some with a good flat file. If you have a good many shell holders and brands you may even find a shell holder that will give you that .010. If you don't have a lathe you can grind things on the side of your grinder will, just be careful.

[Ken77539]

I would take some off the shell holder, it's a cheaper part to buy and doesn't altar the die.

Being that I do not own a lathe, I'm definitely not going to trim down the die - especially after talking with my local gunsmith. Shop rates were kinda "prohibitive". For what they wanted to trim my die, I could buy a RCBS die set, a RCBS Trim and Form die and still have enough left over for a box of J-Words. I do not shoot this gun very often - it's more of a "closet queen" / novelty gun that me and my sons take to the range occasionally. (As a matter of fact, I'm loading these new cases with the 150 gr. bullets that I pulled from the remaining Berdain primed Mil-Surp ammo I bought from Sears about 40 years ago.) A $5 feeler gauge did the trick as far as setting back the shoulder, and I have now prepped another 40 cases which should last me quite a while with the way this gun gets used. I do have a couple of spare shell holders and I think I will try your suggestion as far as shaving the shell holder in stead of trimming the die.

Left to right:
Donor 30-06 case / "decapitated" neck / 1st trim / reformed case / 7.65 Arg. Cart. / Parent 30-06 Cart.

157050

[vzerone]

Being that I do not own a lathe, I'm definitely not going to trim down the die - especially after talking with my local gunsmith. Shop rates were kinda "prohibitive". For what they wanted to trim my die, I could buy a RCBS die set, a RCBS Trim and Form die and still have enough left over for a box of J-Words. I do not shoot this gun very often - it's more of a "closet queen" / novelty gun that me and my sons take to the range occasionally. (As a matter of fact, I'm loading these new cases with the 150 gr. bullets that I pulled from the remaining Berdain primed Mil-Surp ammo I bought from Sears about 40 years ago.) A $5 feeler gauge did the trick as far as setting back the shoulder, and I have now prepped another 40 cases which should last me quite a while with the way this gun gets used. I do have a couple of spare shell holders and I think I will try your suggestion as far as shaving the shell holder in stead of trimming the die.

Left to right:
Donor 30-06 case / "decapitated" neck / 1st trim / reformed case / 7.65 Arg. Cart. / Parent 30-06 Cart.

157050

As I mentioned I'm against taking down the bottom of the die. The shell holder is the easier and cheaper way. You can do that with a file or a grinder. Saves having to stick a feeler gauge in there all the time.

[EDG]

I guess your smith is concerned about how much metal to take off because if you know that number it is a 10 minute job at most in a engine lathe.

With a threaded spud in a drill press you could probably hold 120 grit silicon carbide paper on the drill press table and do it in 15 minutes.
I made a living for 5 years running a lathe and have probably ran one more than most gunsmiths will in a life time. I say this because there is no reason for a competent gun smith to charge much for such simple work.



Being that I do not own a lathe, I'm definitely not going to trim down the die - especially after talking with my local gunsmith. Shop rates were kinda "prohibitive". For what they wanted to trim my die, I could buy a RCBS die set, a RCBS Trim and Form die and still have enough left over for a box of J-Words. I do not shoot this gun very often - it's more of a "closet queen" / novelty gun that me and my sons take to the range occasionally. (As a matter of fact, I'm loading these new cases with the 150 gr. bullets that I pulled from the remaining Berdain primed Mil-Surp ammo I bought from Sears about 40 years ago.) A $5 feeler gauge did the trick as far as setting back the shoulder, and I have now prepped another 40 cases which should last me quite a while with the way this gun gets used. I do have a couple of spare shell holders and I think I will try your suggestion as far as shaving the shell holder in stead of trimming the die.

Left to right:
Donor 30-06 case / "decapitated" neck / 1st trim / reformed case / 7.65 Arg. Cart. / Parent 30-06 Cart.

157050

[country gent]

I perfer to remove the metal from the dies bottom allowing any shell holder to work with it. In an engine lathe its quick and easy. I chuck the die in the lathe and spin a lock ring or jam nut on threads tight against the jaws. Take a depth reading to this nut and write it down. You can now face the die down what you need measuring to the ring/jam nut. I finish with a 3 blade burr srapper recutting the radious and a polish with very fine sand paper. It can be done by hand on a flat surface and sand paper working in a figure 8 pattern slowly. with the ring on you have a step to track progress also. A 7/8 14 nut and lock ring above can be set to leave just the amount to be removed and work until nut shows scratches with the coarser grits then finish with finer grits to desired finish. The big thing is to recut the mouth radious back to form so die dosnt grab or scratch the brass.

[Larry Gibson]

You hit the nail right on the head with the shoulder length. I took a fresh 30-06 case and trimmed it down to the "trim to" length of the 7.65's, ran it through my sizer die, trimmed it one more time, then put it back in the sizer but this time slipped a feeler gauge between the shell holder and case head, gradually working up to where the empty case would chamber and my bolt would close. The magic number, 0.010"! I followed this up by seating a bullet in the empty case and chambering it again. The bolt cammed over with no problem. Thanks to all who helped expand my education!

Guess it's time to start loading now.

Are you sure those Lee dies don't say "Belgian Mauser" on them? This is a common problem with Lee Belgian dies used in Argentine Mausers. The headspace of the sized/formed cartridge is usually about .010 to long. It can be easily solved by turning .015 off the bottom of the sizing dies and then adjust the die in the press so the sized cases fit the headspace of your rifles chamber.

Larry Gibson