Ruger Mini14

[abunaitoo]

I always thought that the Mini14, at one time, was used by the USAF.
Friend said no, never was.
Which is it????

[shoot-n-lead]

To the best of my knowledge, the Mini 14 never gained acceptance by the U S military, due primarily to firing from a closed bolt.

[Geezer in NH]

Then explain the M16 please.

[fryboy]

I cant state military but various LEO and prison guards yes ( they love it btw and even can/could get non-civilian versions)

[koehn,jim]

You may be thinking of the fact that the early version of the ar was tried out by the Air Force. They had the weapon before the army.

[GREENCOUNTYPETE]

I know it was used by a lot of prisons , police departments and security

some foreign military used it like Bermuda

some were issued to Marines serving as security in embassies

it is possible that some were seen at an air base being used by guards , but I don't think it was ever a general issue more likely contracted security or acquired when all the m-16 were sent to war

I know a few airmen that were in Vietnam , they talk about using a number of other weapons when on the ground than the M16 normally issued one carried a Springfield shotgun the other spent most of his time in the air and carried his own Ruger security 6 I think they also talked about having some M1 carbines around.

[GREENCOUNTYPETE]

I have a Mini 14 and like it , the only thing I wish it did better was accept magazines quickly

but it is light and easy to carry, well balanced , easy to use and service

[Fishman]

The A team used it. It was so inaccurate they never hit any of the bad guys.

My mom uses one to deer hunt.

That's all I know.

[RogerDat]

Rugged and dependable but seldom a tack driver. You love them for the solid dependable action or hate them for not having tight groups without massive effort to improve accuracy, that may or may not make it a tack driver after all the investment.

I could see where some isolated individuals in the military or associated with the military might have used them, especially considering they chamber a round common in military supplies while being more compact and forgiving of harsh environments than the M16.

[Hardcast416taylor]

Change out the gas orfice from a Brownells kit and put in a shock buffer, you will be surprised in the change in accuracy for the better.Robert

[timspawn]

Prison guards, Police departments, US embassy guards and some European LE. The European rifles were chambered in 222 because the law forbids military calibers. France comes to mind. I have purchased quite a few Mini 14's and AC556's from LE departments in the past.

[Artful]

Mini-14 or AC556 in NFA happy switch mode...
was never a US Air Force weapon as far as I know.
Police in America
http://i.dailymail.co.uk/i/pix/2013/02/08/article-2274956-176B7D5C000005DC-333_634x382.jpg
Other places in the world (France)
http://p1cdn01.thewrap.com/images/2015/01/Paris-Terror-Attack-Police.jpg
Jamacia
http://i155.photobucket.com/albums/s286/hunterhornet/guns/411px-Jamaican_Defence_Force__Bermu.jpg

[MtGun44]

USAF was the first to use the AR15 platform, McNamara's Whiz Kids thought it was so
cool that they mandated it for US Army, and forced it into combat before the Army
ordinance folks could complete their normal testing....... which led to a lot of problems
and people likely died because of the Whiz Kids, who didn't give a rat's ***.

Mini14 was never a US military issue weapon. French police have been carrying them
in photos of the aftermath of the big Paris shooting.

[WILCO]

http://dailycaller.com/2014/06/03/8-things-you-might-not-know-about-the-ruger-mini-14/

[WILCO]

http://blog.cheaperthandirt.com/faqs/ruger-mini-14-faq/

[WILCO]

http://www.rugertalk.com/The-Ruger-Mini-14-in-Military-Use.html

From the above link:

In the 1980s, the US Navy's Special Warfare groups bought unknown stocks of AC556 and GB rifles for use. Richard "Demo Dick" Marcinko relates in his autobiography about his service, "Rouge Warrior" that he equipped the original Seal Team Six with commercial stainless steel Ruger Mini-14s (among other arms). The simple fact was that the M16 didn't come in stainless at the time, and SEALS spend a lot of time in what could be called a high-rust environment.

[Big Boomer]

I have one of the older Ruger Mini-14s from 'way back in the early 1980s. I had heard that the Mini was not accurate after purchase, and set out to test whether that was true. Found that with usual 55 gr. fmj bullets that was the case. However, with Nosler match bullets it shot much better. After trying a few other tricks that didn't pan out, I decided to size the fired brass (from my own Mini) only back to where the sizer die would reach the shoulder and quit there. That left the brass slightly larger and longer and the bullet more in line with the bore. Then I fooled around with over all length and arrived at that dimension that would feed in my rifle. Shooting match bullets in this manner I found that I could shoot 3 rounds that could be covered with a dime consistently with a 4X Weaver scope at 100 yds. But if I went to 5 rounds, the light barrel would throw the next 2 rounds into a 1 1/2" group as it heated up. Not bad for an inherently inaccurate rifle. Big Boomer

[Petrol & Powder]

The A team used it. It was so inaccurate they never hit any of the bad guys........




YOU WIN THE LAUGH OF THE DAY AWARD WITH THAT LINE. :bigsmyl2:

[MaryB]

Friend of mine had one back in the early 80's... he hated it, tried to sell it to me, I hated it and said no... only fun part about it was he had the parts for FA(illegal) that got used now and then.

[fatelk]

The mini is a bit like the M1 carbine- either loved or hated. I've had mine (one of each actually, a Mini and a carbine) for decades, and like them both. The Mini 14 is an old '80s stainless model. The only time it wasn't boringly reliable was when I foolishly bought some garbage aftermarket magazines.

I know the reputation that some of them had for bad accuracy but mine was a good one I guess. I could consistently do 100yd groups inside of 2 to 3", about the same as a decent Garand. I never understood the hate for them, but I guess if I'd had a bad one I'd have felt different.

I talked to a guy once at a gun show who swore they were total garbage and he'd never even look at another one. He said he bought one once and it was a jam-o-matic, so he ended up selling it for cheap because he hated it. I asked him about magazines and he said all he had for it was a couple 30rnd magazines and one worked a little better than the other. He wasn't interested when I suggested that he probably just had some bad aftermarket magazines. Back then factory 30rnd mags were not available because Bill Ruger figured common folk couldn't be trusted with them.

[9.3X62AL]

My old agency (Riverside Co. [CA] Sheriff) made much use of the Mini-14 from 1980 until 1999. The things are utterly indestructible and absolutely deputy-proof.......2 things the AR-15s that superceded the Mini-14 DEFINITELY ARE NOT. The Mini's accuracy can be suspect, but good ammo (something other than M-193 clones) usually does better work. My own Mini with loads it likes (69 grain Matchkings/26.0 grains WW-748/WSR primer/comm case) will print under 2" five-shot groups at 100 yards. It does almost as well with Nosler 55 Bal-Tips/27.0 x 748.

I liken the Mini-14 to a rimfire rifle......it has definite likes and dislikes for ammo type. Keep an open mind when dealing with the Mini-14 and you might come to trust them as much as I do. On balance, I don't think my shop gained much by converting to ARs from the Minis, other than to have a bunch of users with prior military time that knew and liked the system. I know both, and like both, but my truck rifles include a Mini-14 and NOT an AR-series. A Win 94 is preferred over the AR, and the 30/30 is a draw with the Mini-14.

[perotter]

They were tested for military use in the Philippines, but they stayed with the M16. As they were already making M16s, I don't know why they even tested it.

I got a stainless Mini in the late 1970's. It did and still does shoot as accurately as the standard bolt actions of the era. I 'fits' me better than any gun I've tried, throw it to the shoulder and the sights are lined up perfect. Took a number of deer with it back home.

Given the price of them today, the weight gain, etc I wouldn't buy one now. Also, the safety is bad for sub-zero weather.

[Artful]

Also, the safety is bad for sub-zero weather.

How do you figure? It's the same safety as on the Garand which fought in sub-Zero Weather in both Korea and WW2 without complaints that I am aware of.

[timspawn]

I saw several SS Mini's being carried by LE after the recent attack in CA.

[Petrol & Powder]

I played with the Mini-14 in the 1980's and my experience with the Mini-14 is about the same as others have reported. Rock solid reliable but not super accurate.
I don't think the rifle was ever intended to be a tack driver but they seem to range from mediocre to really bad. I've heard all of the advice about improving the accuracy of the gun and it goes like this: "you can do this, this, this and that and it might shoot a little bit better.....".
Frankly it's just not worth it to me.
I'm a big fan of Ruger stuff and I think the Mini-14 has its place but there are some fundamental compromises in the design of the Mini-14. I think Ruger placed functioning & low cost over accuracy in that design. I'm not condemning the design just stating that the priority was not great accuracy.

[Mauser48]

Its used quite a bit in France. The interesting thing is that we don't make them for France we just give them the right to so they are actually making them themselves in France. Police use them because they look more like a sporting rifle than a military weapon so they don't freak out civilians.

[35remington]

"Rouge Warrior".......wonder if they also referred to him as the Mascara Mauler?

[4rdwhln]

I have a stainless model made in the 80's. i keep track of round counts on my guns. this gun wen over 1200 rounds with out a cleaning or lube before I had to bump the bolt to chamber a round.........RELIABLE is an understatement. It is well cleaned and oiled now just waiting to spit lead and fire again.

[9.3X62AL]

I saw several SS Mini's being carried by LE after the recent attack in CA.

San Bernardino County (terr attack location) is just north of my old employer's jurisdiction, and SBSD also issued and liked the Mini-14.

Patrol rifle requirements are not daunting standards. Viewed in the context of the "Average Police Sniper Shot Distance"--which is ~75 meters--gilt edge accuracy is nice but not necessary. As modern-day firearms hobbyists we aren't impressed by Ruger's accuracy standard for the Mini-14, which is 4 inch grouping at 100 yards. Super-impose this sort of performance upon that 75 meter shot, and you have a bit over 3" distribution, equating to a 1.6" radius from point of aim. Place sight picture on center-mass, let drive with one or more of our 55 grain CXP soft points, and Hajji will be meeting the Virginians most mui pronto.

Another of the ironies in the Mini-14/AR-15 discussions is how the AK-47 gets no end of props and positive commentary, but its accuracy standard is worse than that of the Mini-14. Human nature never fails to amaze me.

[Rick Hodges]

I have a Mini that shot the typical 3-5" groups at 100 yds...loved the handling and reliability of the rig, but hated the accuracy...I sent it to an outfit in Texas who put a heavy bbl. on it, bedded and tuned it...and ....ruined the handling that I loved. It is overweight, feels clumsy but will shoot inside 1-1/2" at 100 yds. with most anything I put through it. Yeah, I wasted too much money. I have used it as a coyote calling rifle, but I find myself grabbing the Savage .223 most of the time and it sits in the safe.

[bob208]

strange how the mini is called inaccurate. when it meets or beats a rack grade m1 and most times a rack grade ar15. could it be they are beat up on because of the caliber? after all the .223 is a varmint cal. and a varmint gun is suppose to be a tack driver.

[JSnover]

A LGS commando told me (way back in the early 80s) the DoD passed on the mini14 because Bill Ruger refused to offer a synthetic stock. [smilie=1:

[MaryB]

Guess I am spoiled, I built my AR for accuracy and see 1/2 inch groups at 100 yards.

[9.3X62AL]

Guess I am spoiled, I built my AR for accuracy and see 1/2 inch groups at 100 yards.

1/2" at 100 yards is FINE ACCURACY in any system. Getting there is easier and possibly a bit cheaper than with a Mini-14. Some time ago I had the opportunity to shoot one of those worked-over Mini-14s by that Texas firm mentioned above. The rifle was put up in 222 Remington/Ranch Rifle format, and it could routinely put five 52 grain Matchkings into 3/4" groups.......and if all went well, a few of those groups snuck in at 5/8" or a hair under that......a couple groups in the .575"-.580" occur to me, but not quite 1/2". The rat or coyote will have to live with that relaxed standard.......or, perhaps not. :-) A 12x Leupold did the aiming IIRC.

[MaryB]

550 yards on a prairie dog last summer for me, I know it works! Yes that was luck considering it was a 50 grain V-max hand load and it was a bit windy... CFE223 is a great 223 powder! Love the stuff!

[tommag]

Until earlier this year, the mini 14 was my only foray into semi auto centerfire rifles. It was consistent, 5" with white box, and 3" or so with better quality bullets. I traded it for a vx3. Now that I have tried ar15s, I no longer dismiss semi autos as inaccurate noise makers.

[Smoke4320]

"Rouge Warrior".......wonder if they also referred to him as the Mascara Mauler?

brings new meanings to dustup or pat down :bigsmyl2:

[fatelk]

This is a bit off topic, but I've often wondered just what kind of accuracy one can expect from the average off-the-shelf AR. I know they can be made very accurate, and the modular design makes it so easy to swap parts and pieces to accomplish that, but what about the average M4 handed out to a GI in the sandbox?

I bought a Colt H-Bar Match AR15 many years ago (new) and was terribly disappointing with it. It was new, no damage to bore, throat, crown, etc., but the best it shot was about 2 to 2.5 moa. I tried everything I could think of, every style and weight of bullet I could. I eventually bought another barrel for it and that helped a lot. Then a few other changes and it shot great- consistently under 1".

On the other hand, I've read plenty of threads (other forums mostly) where folks brag about shooting better than "MOA" with their M-4gery and cheap M193 ammo. I had someone tell me once that they had no problem shooting "MOA" with his AR. It was easy, he said, at 25 yards with a scope. Turns out he thought MOA just meant one inch, no matter the range.

As far as practical accuracy; I guess it just depends on intended purpose. The average '80s Mini14 is probably comparable to the average Garand in WWII (accuracy-wise), and from what I understand few GIs would consider the M1 to be an "inaccurate noise-maker". If you need precision accuracy though, the AR definitely has a lot more potential.

[9.3X62AL]

From MANY years of range-mastering with both Mini-14 and AR-15 shooters in hands of law officers, I arrived at a few conclusions.

1) The AR is far more user-friendly as a system than is the Mini-14, specifically the ergonomics of both.

2) Most Mini-14s will run forever if left uncleaned. I recall a "quals Mini" that soaked up 3500 rounds during a range period of 7-8 days. Kept right on feeding without a bobble. Most of our "range ARs" used for quals (military refurbs upgraded to A2 specs and left semi-only) would begin balking somewhere between 200 and 300 rounds. Same story with most of the personal-purchase ARs, both A2 and M4gery formats, overwhelmingly Bushmaster. Easy fix, just pull the bolt carriers--hose off with Rem Oil and wipe down, brush-and-Rem Oil chamber/lug recesses/bolt carrier gallery, then wipe it out. Re-spray carrier group with a light coat of Rem Oil, shove it back into the upper receiver, close the critter up and you are good-to-go for another 200 rounds. This was constant whether we used WWB (M193 clone) or Win CXP (rat-strafer soft points) ammo to feed the rifles.

My own current AR is a protest rifle, bought primarily to annoy the hoplophobic tree hugging Mastercard Marxists that infest Sacramento. A2 form minus an evil flash hider and plus a magazine bullet button. Aero-Precision lower end, parts-bin upper with a decent mil-spec barrel. With the 2 loads earlier mentioned in the context of the Mini-14, the AR will hold 2.0 MOA to 300 yards. So, service rifle format-to-format comparison seems to show the AR to shoot groups 2/3 the size of the Mini-14. To 300 yards, a goblin catches one (or more) from either system with center-mass hold.

[MtGun44]

My Mini14s are 3-5 minute rifles, and while that isn't impressive at all, the issue that bugs
me the most is the wandering zero. Seems like the folding stock (factory one, it came that
way when I bought it new) will shoot 2-3" different point of aim every time I get it out. I must
admit, that I have normally run M193 equiv handloads or Fed/LCC XM193 in it. I will put
together some of Al's recommended Sierra 69 MKs with W748 and see what it does with
that. The other one is a wood stock, haven't really shot it all that much, seems like similar
accuracy, but it has been at least a decade since it moved out of the safe. Way past time,
and it will see the 69 MKs, too.

My run of the mill, build-it-myself ARs will run 1.5" at 100 with mixed mil brass and "any
55 FMJBT" loads with TAC or W748. With good ammo my stock Colt HBAR has shot
100-7X on a sling with open sights at 500 yds in a match. It will shoot 5/8" at 100
with 69 MKs, and 2-3" at 300 yds with the same load. My various ordinary carbines,
16" bbls reliably are better than 2 MOA with ANYTHING, and 1.25 with good ammo,
although I must admit that they rarely, if ever, see match grade ammo.

Bill

[Rufus Krile]

Owned one Mini-14 back in the 70's... It was a '79' prefix (early model) and few aftermarket parts would fit it. It shot about like everyone agrees... 4-5" at 100yds... but that turns into minute of javelina and it absolutely never quit. Then the accuracy bug caught me for awhile and I went into my HK and AR period and the darkness engulfed me. At least now I can change a bbl without help from somebody with a lathe.

[9.3X62AL]

At least now I can change a bbl without help from somebody with a lathe.

This is the AR system's chief advantage over the Mini-14.......it is a better Barbie Doll. That they can be accurized more readily doesn't hurt their rep, either.

All this said, being inaccurate but utterly reliable and practically indestructible has done favors for the AK-series that haven't visited the Mini-14 much at all. This has always been difficult for me to understand. I have very fond memories of good work I have done with both systems. June 2003......the "shop AR" I kept in my plain car's trunk got shifted to the front seat and charged to Condition 1 to respond to a crew robbery of a bank a few miles from Jurupa Station. That rifle was of considerable comfort as I slid up behind a parked Toyota 1/2 mile from the bank on a side-street, idling at curbside/unoccupied. I missed the crew's car switch to a lay-off SUV by 30 seconds, per a neighbor. DAMMIT!

October 1980, Rancho Mirage, assist to U.S. Secret Service by our team to protect then-candidate Ronald Reagan at a campaign stop. Rooftop overwatch on entry point/departure point with partner, both of us with Mini-14s. As the candidate's limo rolled to a stop at the atrium, in our peripheral vision we both saw a roof hatch to our rear about 25 feet away flop open. Rather STERN ROEs apply in these sitches, and USSS was very thankful that Craig and I DID NOT strafe their idiot agent for breaking perimeter limits.

Even after retirement, the Mini-14 was along to assist. March 2007, Marie and I had our new truck out for a back-country fire roads drive north of Silverwood Lake. We went past two 4x4 pickups parked drivers'-doors-meeting-fashion, a lot like cops on a beat meet. I then saw one of these vehicles begin backing as if to follow us. He closed the distance and kept pace with us, still backing. I increased speed to 20-25 MPH, and the dude persisted, still backing on a curvy unpaved mountain roadway. At a point after one mile of this nonsense he was still there, still backing, so the Mini-14 was retrieved from behind the seat. As it came into view through our truck's rear window, I saw brake lights activate and the following 4x4 came to a halt. Druggie azzhat, most likely.

So, yes--both systems can and will perform admirably. These and dozens of other at-work and at-play vignettes have cemented in place my fondness for these bottom-feeding peacekeepers/rat-strafers. Don't get me started on leverguns and roller-pistols....... :-)

[David2011]

This is a bit off topic, but I've often wondered just what kind of accuracy one can expect from the average off-the-shelf AR. I know they can be made very accurate, and the modular design makes it so easy to swap parts and pieces to accomplish that, but what about the average M4 handed out to a GI in the sandbox?



The only 100% factory built AR in my inventory is a 16" bull barreled model with a free float handguard from Olympic Arms. Olympic has a reputation for producing really good barrels. I fought its accuracy for the longest time, trying every type of cheap ammo and handloads with mil-spec bullets. It shot 3"-4" patterns. One day I seated some Sierra Match Kings instead of the cheap ammo/bullets I had been trying. With absolutely no other changes it was instant success. First 5 rounds downrange made a single connected bug hole. As long as it's fed quality bullets it will shoot under 1/2" at 100 and under 3/4" at 200, completely stock other than the trigger and scope. A buddy has a stone stock AR that shoots anything you put in it well (sub 1" at 100), even American Eagle and other economy ammo.

A few days ago a guy was at the range practicing with his high power AR. It was a Frankengun made mostly of DPMS parts but is accurate enough for High Power competition.

Seems like there are more good than bad ARs floating around.

David

David

[cephas53]

These folks are into Mini's: http://www.perfectunion.com/vb/ruger-mini-14-mini-30/ Good info there. Have an early 80's model that I got to shoot handloalds very well for the first three shots then open up to dishwasher moa. Did a little bedding, added a strut and lightened the trigger and now it's respectable. However I also did an AR build a couple of years ago and right out of the gate it was accurate. Didn't know weather to laugh or cry.

[MaryB]

Another good AR barrel maker is DEZ Arms. Only barrels my LGS uses in his custom builds. Reasonably priced for match grade barrels. After sighting in a new scope using cheap American Eagle ammo one of the guys at the range watched me put 5 of them in one hole before the pattern started to open up from a hot barrel. With hand loads I can usually get to 8-9 shots before the pattern starts to open.

[perotter]

How do you figure? It's the same safety as on the Garand which fought in sub-Zero Weather in both Korea and WW2 without complaints that I am aware of.

On the Mini there is only enough room between the trigger/safety to be able to wear a thin glove and still get ones finger in there. No where near enough room to be wearing a hunting/shooting mitten.

When it gets less than -10 about one hour is seems the limit for me with thin gloves. So then I have to make changes. Different hunting or different rifle.

I have no idea if the M1 has more room or not. I've only ever looked at one and not in detail.

[Petrol & Powder]

I will not slam the Mini-14, it has its place. For what it is called upon to perform, it probably does ok. It is extremely reliable and that alone has great value. The AK-47 is extremely reliable and that has equal strength.

However, in the world of semi-auto rifles I find the Mini-14 to fit into the adequate category when compared to what is available. I'm not condemning the Mini-14; I'm just saying it doesn't reach the top of the pack.

I went through my black rifle/battle rifle/assault rifle phase. It was fun, I learned a lot and I moved on. There is no dispute that there is a place for those types of weapons but in my current world a bolt action rifle will fill that role every bit as well. There are a few semi-auto rifles that make my list but the Mini-14 just isn't one of them. In all fairness, it is a short list.

I've played with a lot of rifles and back in my prime I could hold my own with most of them with iron sights. I never warmed up to the 5.56mm like I did with the 7.62 but I'll give credit where its due. Most of the .223 battle rifles could meet expectations.
If you confined me to the 5.56mm the Mini-14 would make the list below the AR-15 platform and the H&K 93. If money was no object the H&K G41 or SIG 550 would be at the top of my list. I've shot both and the G41 was my absolute favorite.

Let's face the real world, If you need a semi-auto battle rifle and you have your choice........it rapidly becomes the one you have in your hands. It is like asking someone to pick the best lifeboat after the ship sinks, whichever one you're in is perfectly fine as long as it floats.

[MaryB]

I am leaning more to semi autos as my wrist and hand arthritis gets worse... working the bolt is beginning to hurt some days! Plus I am sticking to lower recoil rifles these days. Worst I have is my Mosin and it is a safe queen these days. My Type 53 in the Archangel stock doesn't recoil all that bad but it is a deer rifle mainly. I finish the 6.5 Grendel AR build and it will take over as deer rifle and the Type 53 wil end up a range rifle with gallery loads.

[LoopSoosStroop]

I've never understood why people shoot Mini's off the bench at paper targets? I zero mine every time I change my load (been a while) and then use it for practical shooting. I can hit a 6" steel plate offhand at 80 yards. Sometimes I miss it, but then I know it was my fault and not the rifles fault. As long as the rifle is more accurate than you FROM REALISTIC SHOOTING POSITIONS it works right?

Mine is utterly reliable, light, handy and accurate enough for me. Cant remember when last I cleaned it and it just runs.

It was never designed as a sniper or varmint rifle, why try to use it as such?

[9.3X62AL]

It was never designed as a sniper or varmint rifle, why try to use it as such?

Americans can be a funny lot to folks in other countries. We strive mightily to build and define The One Caliber--The One Rifle System--The One Bullet--that will perform all tasks flawlessly and fully. Then, we go buy 25-50 of them, knowing full well that you can fire one rifle at a time.

[vzerone]

You members want a good read go to his: http://www.ar15.com/forums/t_3_118/677135_High_round_count_AR_M4_s__over_100_000_roun ds__and_how_they_have_handled_on_our_range.html&page=1

A sum up is this fellow has a shooting range in NV where you can rent and shoot just about any imaginable gun there is. He states he will not name a "best" rifle because he has to deal with all the manufacturers (getting parts for one thing) and doesn't want to alienate any of them. He did kind of answer a question about AR15's when asked who made the best one out there. He states "We've replaced less parts on the Colt then any brand, mainly extractors). Now I'll tell you about one of the top most reliable M4 Carbines and that is Daniel Defense. I haven't read his thread lately and now see it's to nearly 30 pages. He also does one on pistols/revolvers. He says very very good things about Glocks.

Remember when Bill Ruger put thousands of dollars into a project to make a Mini-14 except in 7.62 NATO? Didn't go over so well and they scraped it. If made larger for the 308 cartridge the Mini-14 is no M14. The M14 is a much more robust rifle that can take a beating for a very long time.

The whole history of the M16 is in the book The Black Rifle and it's pretty accurately written. I believe the first "M16" then went to Nam with the Air Force were stamped X15 for experimental. I heard how the Army got them in a different matter. I have heard that Army personal in Nam seen the Air Force with these new very different rifles and asked them about them. Of course they wanted them too. There were many problems with the whole M16 system going to Nam including the rifle, the ammo, and that they were told you don't have to clean it. I'm not going to rehash all this, but I will say that if they had the M16 of today it would have been an entirely different story, although there well be those that will never give up the M14 to the M16.

[sundog]

"although there well be those that will never give up the M14 to the M16."

Why use a 2x4 when a 4x4 works just as well ['mo betta']? :bigsmyl2:

[perotter]

I've never understood why people shoot Mini's off the bench at paper targets? I zero mine every time I change my load (been a while) and then use it for practical shooting. I can hit a 6" steel plate offhand at 80 yards. Sometimes I miss it, but then I know it was my fault and not the rifles fault. As long as the rifle is more accurate than you FROM REALISTIC SHOOTING POSITIONS it works right?

Mine is utterly reliable, light, handy and accurate enough for me. Cant remember when last I cleaned it and it just runs.

It was never designed as a sniper or varmint rifle, why try to use it as such?

The only time I ever shoot from a rest is when I do some basic sighting in of a rifle. The final sighting in is done free hand. All my target practice is free hand. Normally as fast as I can: carry position, shoulder rifle, aim, shoot and repeat. At times I add a follow up shoot betwixt the 1st shot and the repeat.

I target practice for what I do when I'm not going to paper punching. When I was about 9 years old that was an article in a gun magazine that said that if you were going to hunt and get game, do your target practice free hand. Also my pa would say that when hunting there is no time for hesitation.

[fatelk]

Americans can be a funny lot to folks in other countries. We strive mightily to build and define The One Caliber--The One Rifle System--The One Bullet--that will perform all tasks flawlessly and fully. Then, we go buy 25-50 of them, knowing full well that you can fire one rifle at a time.

I love it! Very well said.

[MaryB]

Being disabled I setup my shots off shooting sticks or from the bipod, only way I can be steady enough anymore...


I've never understood why people shoot Mini's off the bench at paper targets? I zero mine every time I change my load (been a while) and then use it for practical shooting. I can hit a 6" steel plate offhand at 80 yards. Sometimes I miss it, but then I know it was my fault and not the rifles fault. As long as the rifle is more accurate than you FROM REALISTIC SHOOTING POSITIONS it works right?

Mine is utterly reliable, light, handy and accurate enough for me. Cant remember when last I cleaned it and it just runs.

It was never designed as a sniper or varmint rifle, why try to use it as such?

[vzerone]

Pretty testimonial for a Colt AR:
http://www.thefirearmblog.com/blog/2014/03/07/6000-rounds-later-review-colt-6920/?utm_source=Newsletter&utm_medium=Email&utm_content=2015-12-31&utm_campaign=Weekly+Newsletter

[RogerDat]

I can relate to the lack of respect the SKS & AK's get. A good SKS is often more accurate and also a solid, robust design. Have shot an SKS that literally "shot where I was looking" in short while not a long range tack driver it was a bit more accurate than the mini-14 at 100 yrds. Could chase a coke can over the berm with that thing in less than 10 shots.

[MaryB]

My SKS runs a 2" group at 100 yards... not bad for a Chinese piece of junk!

[9.3X62AL]

The AK and the SKS are like Com-Bloc Glocks.......aesthetically lacking, casually accurate, but THEY WORK.

[Artful]

I wouldn't want to be in front of my YUGO SKS - with ammo it likes it did the 8" 300 yard gong 10 for 10 with me shooting it off a bench using a navy 6 o'clock hold

I've got a scout scope on my Mini-14 and I think I will have to try that next time I go north.

[MtGun44]

I got out my old Mini14 and started looking over it, and prepping some commercial brass
to check out Al's recommended load with the 69 MK. One thing I did notice is that the rear
sight is really fairly floppy. Doesn't look like anything broken or awry, just sloppy fit. Does
anybody know if there is a good replacement rear sight that is made with better tolerances?

Mine will move easily .010-.020 in both directions. That would give up to 3.4" POI change if it
bounced from one extreme to the other, assuming zero group size from barrel and ammo
differences. This is a 183 series stainless. No ring cuts and the scope mount I tried is
fairly mickey mouse, attaching to a left side cover plate with frt and rear setscrews to stabilize it.
Not very reassuring, and I think that scope mount movement may be part of my accuracy
issue, too.

As to SKSs and AKs, I have owned several of each and with the milsurp ammo out there,
including some very nice PPU brass cased reloadable stuff, I have never seen better than
4" at 100 from either, and with most ammo they are 6"+ rifles at 100 yds. AND the
legendary AK and SKS reliability is IMO, just a legend. I have had both jam multiple
times. Are they unreliable? Not particularly, but if you don't clean and lube them, IME,
they jam just like any other dirty, dry gun will sometimes do. Frankly, they are pretty crude devices,
VERY 'soldier proof' in the sense of not fragile or easily damaged by dropping or such abuse,
but the mediocre sights, short sight radius, poor to worse triggers and the world's most
non-ergonomic safety on the AK (good design on SKS) make them not particularly interesting
if something better is available. Would I feel inadequately armed if I had to fight with one?
Not at all, but shots beyond 200 meters are unlikely to be hits, IME. One can see why the
spray and pray shooting technique used universally by irregular fighters shown on TV
with AKs is popular. Not going to do a whole lot better with the sights, so point in
the general direction and hose down the area.

Any of many ARs I have bought or built will do 2" or better at 100 with mixed brass and
cheapest 55 FMJBT bullets, and a number will go well under an inch at 100 reliably with
good ammo. I once shot a 100-7X at 500 yds with a stock HBAR (match sights, finer clicks)
on a reduced size 600 yd NRA HP course of fire, meaning open sights and on a sling,
not a bench. Stock trigger, no free float, just like Colt made it.

I like the Mini14, and if I can get mine to group a bit better than the semi-random 3-7"
groups it normally has turned out in the past, I would keep it handy for coyotes on the
property. I do like the easy chamber access for safety check compared to an AR, and
that is helpful when keeping a rifle ready for quick use, super easy visual safety check.

Bill

[9.3X62AL]

Bill, you touch on the Mini-14 dichotomy I spoke of earlier......that being the full acceptance of the casual accuracy of the AK/SKS family of arms with love and affection, while at the same time decrying the Mini-14 (that usually shoots somewhat better than the Com-Block war toys) as woefully inaccurate. American shooters can be a funny lot.

I agree fully with your assessment of most aftermarket scope mounts for non-Ranch Rifle applications--shakier than a drug informant's affidavit. Waste of money in every case I've seen, they can't hold zero. The Ranch Rifles can have their own sets of issues, too--some of the receiver dovetails aren't on the same sheet of music as the bore line. Of course, I've seen bolt rifles of good maker reputation whose OEM receiver D&T for scope bases aren't oriented into the same ZIP Code as their bore line, either. The Leupold/Redfield mount system saves their bacon for them.

The OEM rear sights on the current Mini-14 here (187-series, IIRC) has a small bit of wobble in both directions, about .003"-.005". I don't like it, but have learned to live with it. The lash clearance you describe would be unacceptable to me; none of my Minis have had that much, but a few work rifles I've fired have shown that. There is a "fix" for this, a Ruger-trained armorer probably knows the magic. I never pursued it after "downing" any rifle at work in this condition. They came back from the shop in better condition. Lyman and similar receiver sight systems have spoiled us, I suppose.

The bottom line here (for me) is that if am going to use glass sights on a military-pattern semi-auto rifle, it will be on an AR-10 or AR-15, and its upper receiver will be of a type that lends itself to scope mounting. Relatively few of my rifles use glass sights, less than 30% of my accumulation. None of my handguns use glass. I was raised to believe that glass sights are a specialization, and that they easily become an OVER-specialization. Being archaic is its own reward. :-)

Bill--check for PM.

[Blackwater]

As to accuracy with the Mini-14's, I've yet to see one that won't respond VERY well to glass bedding, using the techniques described in the USMC manual for bedding the M-14's. Every one I've bedded this way would do MOA or slightly over, with selected reloads that had proven accurate in other bolt guns. Ruger apparently hogs out the stocks, so the actions rattle around in them for each shot, and if you want accuracy, that can't be allowed to persist. Bedding is the only way I've ever found to get them stable and securely locked into the stocks, but when you do that, they'll shoot with just about anything out there. Have shot many more than one near 1/2" group at 100 for 5 shots with them, but it usually takes a little ministering to the triggers too, to do that consistently. Mostly, I just debur and polich the mating surfaces, and that makes them (generally) good to go. The triggers are easy to disassemble and put back together, but you need to know how to use stones to do this work, and what NOT to do. Other than that, it's really a pretty simple home gunsmithing project that doesn't really take all that long. Just look up the manual on bedding/accurizing the M-14 and learn it thoroughly before tackling it, and it should really improve all the Mini-14's I've seen lately. I love the little guns, personally, but only when they've been accurized. I've done at least a half dozen of them, and all would do near MOA and most better than that with good loads. Great little rifles, and much smoother handling than the AR's for an old "bird hunter" like me. YMMV.

[cephas53]

Looked into scope mounts for my older mini and settled on one from here: http://www.scopemounts.com/index.html?main.html
Part of the rear sight is removed and base is placed. One of the sturdiest I could find.
http://i116.photobucket.com/albums/o21/cephas53/P1010247_zpsf7a43500.jpg (http://s116.photobucket.com/user/cephas53/media/P1010247_zpsf7a43500.jpg.html)

[10-x]

Traded mine for a M-1 Garand back in the 80's, never looked back. Thing had a " cone of fire", not 5 ring or 7 ring, barn door size.:kidding:

[9.3X62AL]

Cephas, that system looks more substantial than the few I've examined and the one I tried. I hate the idea of removing the iron sights from ANY rifle having same, though. Call me "unevolved".

Blackwater, your advice re USMC bedding is intriguing. My current Mini is acceptably accurate with a couple loads, but "better" would be........well, BETTER. This will keep my mind occupied while waiting on rain-outs and snow-ins this winter and hammering away on lined-up projects in my lonely reloading garret.

[Rick Hodges]

Cephas, that system looks more substantial than the few I've examined and the one I tried. I hate the idea of removing the iron sights from ANY rifle having same, though. Call me "unevolved".

Blackwater, your advice re USMC bedding is intriguing. My current Mini is acceptably accurate with a couple loads, but "better" would be........well, BETTER. This will keep my mind occupied while waiting on rain-outs and snow-ins this winter and hammering away on lined-up projects in my lonely reloading garret.

One of the things that Texas company did to my Mini was glass bed it. It appears to be the same method as used on the M1 and M14 match guns. It is overweight and a bit ungainly now with the heavy barrel, but it shoots most everything from 37-60 gr. into less than 1.5" at 100yds for 5 shots. (Jwords). It is consistent and it holds zero well. 37 gr. Calhoon HP's at 3400 fps do a spectacular job on Coyotes. They go in and stay in and the dogs crumple.

[9.3X62AL]

I had use of one of those Accuracy System Ranch Rifle builds for a time, in 222 Remington. Stone tackdriver, had a 24" truck-axle barrel that changed the carry aspect entirely. Groups varied from 5/8" to 7/8" at 100 if I did my part, assisted by a 12x Leup IIRC. Been a while.

[Nose Dive]

good question... I don't know if DOD supplied it to rank and file troops.. I never asked for one but was always given what I wanted.

I own two. Stainless steel from the 80's. Bit fussy with 'coated rounds'....but reliable.

Nose Dive.

Cheap, Fast, Good. Kindly pick two.


PS: would pick something else to take on a mission. ND

[MtGun44]

Al, I have loaded up some loads to your recommendation, although
sources indicate 24.5 max with W748, so I started at 24, then 25.2
and then 26, will see how it goes, carefully inspecting cases as I
go, as per normal handloading process. Also loaded several other
powders at book or online recommended levels, all of them under
the 69 SMKs at 2.255" LOA. Looking forward to a warmer day with
good sunshine to test them. Also looking forward to your PM, always
happy to discuss issues with you.

The glass bedding idea seems like a relatively cheap and easy thing to
at least try. I know that proper bedding of M14s is critical to accuracy
with them from talking to friends who have been serious about Hi Power
competition, so it makes good sense. I have considered bedding the
interior metal piece to the stock and also the action to the top and
rear of the stock. More complex than a bolt gun, but should be
doable. Anybody have source for instructions on bedding for either
an M14 or Mini14.

Several other sources indicate that making a new barrel-to-gas
block bushing with a much smaller hole and slowly opening while test
firing with your ammo of choice until the gun just functions reliably and
then go a touch bigger for a 'dirty factor'. This seems pretty easy and
cheap, too. The claim is that there is too much gas and it "bangs" the
barrel too hard..... I am not sure that I buy this idea, but for the modest
effort, it seems worth trying - I have a lathe.

One of the attractions of mine is that it is a factory folder. Solid, workable
stock, but the gun is about 28" long, real handy.

Currently relearning to use irons after cataract surgery and some vision loss in
both eyes, but worse in my master eye, from glaucoma. Used to be able to easily
use milsurp irons, but today, that is really problematic. Peep sights work well, but
too large diam "battle sights" peeps do not work too well, although may be OK.

Planning on shooting the test ammo with a cardboard strip wedged under the front
of the steel outer shell piece to keep it from flopping. Will then disassemble the sight
and see if I can figure out a way to reduce or eliminate the slop, perhaps make a
replacement part or bend or peen something. I have done this with success with
an FAL military rear sight with a lot of slop.

[9.3X62AL]

Bill--A lot of the published data for 223 Rem is commercial-ammo pressures for (duh.....) 223 Remington. Pressure standards and throat form for the 5.56 x 45 differs from that of the commercial 223, and comm-223 is loaded lighter. Mini-14 and most AR-series rifles are chambered to 5.56 x 45 tolerances.

I still think this rubric is counter-intuitive, somehow. SAAMI et al are purporting that a gas gun with Garand-style locking surfaces OR daisy-wheel bolthead (AR-series) are capable of containing MORE pressure than a Mauser-type turnbolt with dual opposed locking lugs?? To me, that is like comparing a hollow-core door with deadbolt to a bank vault lock-up. But that's just me........I don't have a propeller hat or 15 Ph.Ds to make claims of that sort.

We had nice weather here today. It makes you want to head to the desert and go strafe jackrabbits, but roadway washouts are widespread in the East Mojave, and night driving can be real adventure travel at wash crossings--as in, BRIDGE OUT or compromised. I'll give County Roads a few more days to take stock of National Trails Highway before venturing out that way.

[Rick Hodges]

Bill--A lot of the published data for 223 Rem is commercial-ammo pressures for (duh.....) 223 Remington. Pressure standards and throat form for the 5.56 x 45 differs from that of the commercial 223, and comm-223 is loaded lighter. Mini-14 and most AR-series rifles are chambered to 5.56 x 45 tolerances.

I still think this rubric is counter-intuitive, somehow. SAAMI et al are purporting that a gas gun with Garand-style locking surfaces OR daisy-wheel bolthead (AR-series) are capable of containing MORE pressure than a Mauser-type turnbolt with dual opposed locking lugs?? To me, that is like comparing a hollow-core door with deadbolt to a bank vault lock-up. But that's just me........I don't have a propeller hat or 15 Ph.Ds to make claims of that sort.

We had nice weather here today. It makes you want to head to the desert and go strafe jackrabbits, but roadway washouts are widespread in the East Mojave, and night driving can be real adventure travel at wash crossings--as in, BRIDGE OUT or compromised. I'll give County Roads a few more days to take stock of National Trails Highway before venturing out that way.

Actually, SAAMI only responded to Gov't requirements for more performance out of the cartridge. With the widespread use of the M-4 and its 14+" bbl. They needed more velocity and heavier bullet weights to maintain performance. The chamber dimensions changed (longer throat) and they are loaded to higher pressures to get a few hundred feet per second more. SAAMI just reflects the change. In effect there are now two different cartridges...the .223Rem and the 5.56x45 Nato. A turnbolt action with a 5.56 chamber (or the Wilde compromise) is undoubtedly as strong (stronger) than the gas/auto's. The civilian chamber is different.

[9.3X62AL]

A better expression of my meaning, Rick. Thank you! It is good practice to regard the 223 Rem and 5.56 x 45 as "different" cartridges, not unlike 38 ACP and 38 Super.

I have a bolter Ruger 77RC that shoots far better than its 16.5" whip barrel would lead you to believe it could. It has what is likely a "commercial" throating form, because I can seat Nosler 55 BTs only a few thousandths out from max SAAMI OAL and still have .030" of leade/ogive clearance. In the Mini and the AR, both have at least .110" of freebore between seating at max OAL and leade/ogive contact. The Weatherby Effect. In the 16.5" bolter, 25.0 grains of WW-748 gives ~2875 FPS. Not uber-velocity, but it goes through target paper just fine and leaves varmints speechless well past 250 yards. With expanding bullets, the 223/5.56 is a VERY different cartridge terminally than the mil-spec FMJ loads. A certain varmint hunting pal of mine who lives nearby and shall remain nameless uses 28.5 grains of either WW-748 or its clone WC-844 with 55 grain J-words in his heavy-barreled 223 Savage bolter--its 26" tube launches things MUCH faster, his brass life is good. So, I dunno. Both rifles are VERY accurate, and that is the real question. A rat won't know and doesn't care if the bullet that whacked him started at 2875 or 3400 FPS.......if it's a hit, he's over with. And spread out some, too.