New Mold, JPW Lube, and 2000 fps, w/out gas check

[Boerrancher]

A few days ago I got a new Lee mold. It was the C309-180-R. When I actually cast a several boolits, the average wt with out a gas check was 171 grs. I was quite pleased with the consistency as the heaviest ones were 171.2 grs, and the lightest ones were never any less than 170.8 grs. I lubed a few up with Johnson's Past Wax, and let them cure for a couple of days.

This morning I decided that I would load up 20 and see if I got any leading in my old mod 94 30-30. I picked out a load for a 170 gr bullet, that should give a velocity of 2100 fps. I didn't use a gas check, I cut some thin wads out of a shoe box lid, and after charging the case with the powder I rolled up some toilet paper and stuffed it down the neck. I trimmed off the excess that was sticking out of the case neck, then placed one of my card wads over the toilet paper and seated the boolit compressing the toilet paper and powder.

The toilet paper as most know serves to keep the powder at the back of the case, but more importantly for me, it holds the home made shoe box lid gas check in place against the base of the boolit.

I took my loads and went to my range. I was quite impressed at an average velocity of slightly over 2000 fps on the chronograph, but more so at the fact that when I went to check the bore of my mod 94 it was nice and clean with no leading. I went to the berm and dug out a couple of my boolits. The base looked just as clean and sharp as the day they come out of the mold minus the dirt.

I had an old friend who had casted boolits since the 1920's tell me that the base is the most important of a cast boolit. It needs to be clean and strait with no defects before it is loaded, and needs to be kept that way until it leaves the barrel. I learned many tricks to shooting cast boolits from him including the paper wading and card stock gas check. He most likely forgot more about casting and shooting cast boolits than I will ever learn. I only wish now that he is gone I would have listened a bit more closely to all of the things he tried to tell me.

Best Wishes

CPT T.

[Lloyd Smale]

just keep in mind that your running not running a plinking level load for pressure and adding that toliet paper is taking up room in the case and going to increase the pressure even more.

[fourarmed]

Very interesting. What powder were you using?

[Hayfield]

What alloy/bhn/hardness?

[Bret4207]

Congrats from a fellow Caprine Farmer. Ya never know whats gonna work till you try it!

[Boerrancher]

I was using 28 gr of 3031 and roughly a Lyman #2 alloy. I say roughly because I added a bit more tin to it to make it a bit harder. I am going to play with the powder wt some and see what happens next. I know I am reaching the upper limits go with this load, I may try a slightly slower burning powder as well.

Best wishes,

CPT T.

[405]

Everything makes sense as far as no leading at 2000 fps by protecting the base with the paper and card.

But, questions...

bore groove diameter?
bullet diameter?
accuracy?

[Ricochet]

I doubt adding tin to #2 will harden it significantly. Adding antimony will have more effect.

[35remington]

Something I wonder about is the ability of the rather thin cardboard to prevent gascutting when the wad is larger than the heel of the bullet, as it must be here. Unsupported cardboard doesn't have much strength and will get pushed against the sides of the bullet sufficiently to let gasses by.

Ask me how I know (idle afternoons poorly spent, for sure). I know that a thin cardboard wad would be ineffective by itself if shot through my guns with checkless gascheck bullet in regards to gascutting or accuracy at velocities/pressures exceeding those appropriate for a plainbase bullet.

When used in conjunction with the TP, though, I suspect it does prevent gascutting, more due to the TP than to the cardboard wad. The TP alone would probably serve as well, but you won't know until you try it.

If the load don't shoot, though, it doesn't matter how clean it leaves the barrel. For me, it is more difficult to get accuracy with a checkless gascheck bullet at higher velocities no matter what you back it with, including dacron, vegetable fiber wads and poly wads.

So.....how's accuracy? Clean's easy.

[felix]

If I will ever shoot without checks, I would use a washer which will fill up the area where the check would go. That would be something like a thick cardboard .08 thick with a hole for the shank to fit through. It is far better to have the CIRCUMFERENCE of the boolit sealed under all circumstances. We don't care nearly as much about the center of the boolit, because the expanding gas tends to migrate towards the center of the boolit after the boolit begins to move. ... felix

[Ricochet]

I once tried a 2000 FPS load with plain base boolits propelled by IMR 7383 in a Mosin. Accuracy was nonexistant in that I never managed to get it on paper at 50 yards to see if it grouped. Couldn't figure out where the POI was. The bore wasn't leaded, but the bayonet got covered with ugly ragged globs of soldered-on lead with the boolits lubed with LLA. Switched to the same load with the boolits lubed with White Lightning bicycle chain lube. Still didn't lead the bore. Quite leading the bayonet, but I don't know that it stopped melting lead off the boolits. The White Lightning coated the bayonet with a white sooty powder, which may have kept the lead droplets from sticking to it. Still never got a hit on paper.

A clean bore doesn't necessarily mean a good load.

[45 2.1]

Good Job Boerrancher, your old friend taught you well. Toilet paper filler is a very old trick used to get complete combustion in the old large capacity rifle cases. It serves well as an insulator for plain based boolits and medium burning powder with full loads as yours was. When the hot powder gases don't get to the boolit, the lube requirements are a lot less.

[Boerrancher]

Everything makes sense as far as no leading at 2000 fps by protecting the base with the paper and card.

But, questions...

bore groove diameter?
bullet diameter?
accuracy?

I have owned that old 94 for about 10 years now, and it has always shot well enough with booth 309 dia cast boolits and regular .308 dia bullets, that I never bothered to slug the bore. I will tell you that Win. .307 dia bullets don't shoot worth a crap out of it. The accuracy of this load was not bad, but I will admit it could have been better. I was shooting at 100 yds and was consistently keeping 5 shots in groupings of less than 5 in. I say "could have been better," because it has always shot 2 in groups or less at 100 yds, with 170 gr jacketed bullets, and 3 in groups with 150gr gas checked boolit.

[405]

boerrancher, Thanks for the details. All things considered that 5" at 100 is not shabby at all!


If I will ever shoot without checks, I would use a washer which will fill up the area where the check would go. That would be something like a thick cardboard .08 thick with a hole for the shank to fit through. It is far better to have the CIRCUMFERENCE of the boolit sealed under all circumstances. We don't care nearly as much about the center of the boolit, because the expanding gas tends to migrate towards the center of the boolit after the boolit begins to move. ... felix

felix,
My idle thoughts have drifted that direction for a long time. While it may be academic, has anyone tried or know of anyone trying the "fiber washer in place of gas check" thing? IIRC the last bullet I looked at with a similar washer on the base arrangement was one of the "belted semi-sabot plastic thingys" on a brand of muzzleloader jbullets.

[Boerrancher]

boerrancher, Thanks for the details. All things considered that 5" at 100 is not shabby at all!

I know that 5" is by most standards with a 30-30 is quite acceptable, and would be for me as well. I am just hoping to shrink it down to where I was with the 150 grainers that I use to shoot in it. The reason I need it to shoot tight out to 100 yds is that is about the farthest I can see in the spring and summer months and is also the farthest edge of my Goat pens from my back deck. I need to be able to reach to the far end of the pens and dust a varment be it a coyote, cougar, or stray dog. With my poor shooting skills, the better the rifle shoots the more likely I am to hit my target.:Fire:

[leftiye]

Knowing the rifle nails what it points at is a huge boost in confidence. And confidence matters.

[Boerrancher]

Knowing the rifle nails what it points at is a huge boost in confidence. And confidence matters.

Years ago I was in Northern Mo deer hunting with a custom 30-06 built on an old Mod 17 Enfield. It was a shooter, consistently ragging out 5-shot groups that you could cover with a dime at 100 yds, and the stock was hand carved just to fit me. I shot a deer across a large bean field at a bit over 300 yds, and it took off running into the brush.

When I got to where it was when I shot, I could see no blood, so I just sat down to wait a while, after 20 min I noticed a hunter coming my way. When he got near I ask which way he was heading, and told him I was waiting on one to die. Looking around he didn't see any blood and ask me how I knew I hit the deer. I tried to explain that I knew were my rifle shot, and I knew where the cross hairs on the scope were when I felt the recoil of the rifle. The guy ask me again how I knew I hit the deer, and I told him I the same thing, and he still didn't get it.

I walked off in the brush about 40 yards found a big puddle of blood and my buck laying in another about 10 yards further. So yes, "And confidence matters."

[RU shooter]

After reading this thread I had hopes that this method would work for me in finding a way to shoot non GC boolits faster in my 30-06. I tried 2 different weights a 185 Lee@.311 WQWW and the same in the lee 155 both always shoot very well in my 03A3 for the 185 I loaded 28 grs of my CZ pulled down 54R (4895 equivelent) powder and 25grs for the 155 .Maybe I was doing something incorrectly?????? I used a half a sheet of TP and a .020 card underneath the boolit . My results were horrid to be kind:( both loads produced PATTERNS of 18-24" at 100M
I'm glad it worked for you because it sure didnt for me!

[Boerrancher]

Shooter,

There were a couple of things that I did a bit differently that most people. I don't know the thickness of my card stock never thought to mic it. I always looked for a big heavy shoe box to cut my wads out of. I also don't just stuff in the toilet paper. I roll it up until it looks like a cigarette filter, that just fits inside the neck of the case, then cut it off at the case mouth. This serves a two fold purpose. One, it holds the card wad against the base of the boolit, and then it also virtually insures that no gas gets to the back of the boolit.

Here is something else to consider, you need to have at least a full inch of space between the top of your powder charge and your case mouth when you insert the toilet paper. my only saving grace for my load is that the 30-30 has a super long neck on it.