Help with 9mm casting

[Wilson]

I've been reading through many posts, but I would like to ask the following:

1) What's a good powder for 9mm out of Storm Lake and Wolf Barrels on Glock 19s and 17s? I've been using 3.3 grs of Tight Group and getting bad leading with 125 gr bullets cast by a local commercial caster.

2) The above commercial caster is not selling any more bullets due to the current cost of lead. I'd like to start casting with wheel weights for the above pistols and am thinking of starting with:

Lee 6-Cavity Bullet Mold TL356-124-2R 9mm Luger, 38 Super, 380 ACP (356 Diameter) 124 Grain Tumble Lube 2 Ogive Radius
Lee Alox Bullet Lube 4 oz Liquid
Frankford Arsenal Fine Powdered Mica 4 oz

Am I on the right path to good bullets for under 20 yard steel challenge and IDPA?
Thanks for helping me through the "learning curve".

[OBXPilgrim]

Welcome to the madness, Wilson - lots of very knowledgeable folks on this site. They've helped me a bunch.

Have you slugged your bore on those barrels and miked the cast bullets, to make sure they fit?

I don't even have Tite Group in any of my books, haven't used it & not sure where it falls on the burning rate curve. But, I lloked back through some of my old data ('93) to the last cast 9mm I shot (through my Glock 17 - before all the kaboom scare) & I was getting good groups with AA#5 up to 5.6grs with a 124 cast - but I'd work it up all over again nowadays. I also had some good 147gr loads with Unique and I had some great loads with Win 452AA - it's known as either Super Target or Field now.

9mm isn't a real popular caliber to cast for on the site, so don't be disappointed if there aren't many responses.

[454PB]

Many times 9mm barrels are in the .357" to .358" range. This causes leading when the newbie buys the typical .356" commercial cast boolits sold for 9mm. You need to determine your bore diameter before buying or casting your own.

I've had good results with Red Dot for moderate loads, and HS-6 for full out factory load equivalents. I recently bought some Titegroup, but haven't shot any yet.

[Wilson]

I've got four differnt barrels to slug and didn't want to bother with it. I'd hate to think I'd have to get four diffent molds! Is it that important?
I see I got my answer just before I posted. I skipped the post on slugging barrels, but I'll go back and find it. Thanks.

[mtgrs737]

I believe that Tightgroup is right next to Bullseye in burning speed. Hodgon claims that Tightgroup is not position sensitive which sould make it consistant for small powder charges in large cases. I believe that many commercial reloaders are going to it because of this and the low quanity requirement that will save them money. I have used a lot of Unique for my 9mm loads.

[hotwheelz]

I've been reading through many posts, but I would like to ask the following:

1) What's a good powder for 9mm out of Storm Lake and Wolf Barrels on Glock 19s and 17s? I've been using 3.3 grs of Tight Group and getting bad leading with 125 gr bullets cast by a local commercial caster.

2) The above commercial caster is not selling any more bullets due to the current cost of lead. I'd like to start casting with wheel weights for the above pistols and am thinking of starting with:

Lee 6-Cavity Bullet Mold TL356-124-2R 9mm Luger, 38 Super, 380 ACP (356 Diameter) 124 Grain Tumble Lube 2 Ogive Radius
Lee Alox Bullet Lube 4 oz Liquid
Frankford Arsenal Fine Powdered Mica 4 oz

Am I on the right path to good bullets for under 20 yard steel challenge and IDPA?
Thanks for helping me through the "learning curve".

I use the Lee 6-Cavity Bullet Mold TL356-124-2R 9mm Luger, but they drop out at .357-.358 and I dont size them just tumble lube and load. I run them in my 9mm commander and a glock 22 with conversion barrell in 9mm no leading problems. So if your barrell is fat these bullets would help with your leading problems....

[trickyasafox]

Welcome!

I've had good luck with unique and lead in most pistol applications, but many consider it a 'dirty' powder. This will mean powder fouling though, not necessarily leading.

I haven't used the exact mold you reference, but I have used the Single Lube groove Lee TC (the 120gr version) with good feeding results in a stock glock 17 and they worked fine in a friends glock 19 (also stock barrel).


trick

[billyb]

I have shot thousands of cast 9 mm over a lot of years.I cast my own rcbs trunacated nose 124 grain ww and #2 with no leading. I have used unique.231,and aa#5, that i now use.I have shot these ins&w 39,59, beretta 92 and my glock 17 with wilson barrel. I use 6.1 grains of #5 now . Very happy with this bullet and powder. size .356 Bill

[cbr]

4.2 to 4.5 grains of unique over a 120 grain Lee TC bullet sized .358 shoots great in my brothers stock Glock 19 and my M&P 9mm. Its a pretty soft load. I get leading if I go over 4.5 grains of unique, but I know others push them much faster with good results. I also tried titegroup and had some leading, seemed to work much better with unique.

[runfiverun]

i use 4 gr in my 9mm with my cast boolits i would make them as big as they will chamber
you may just have to push them a bit harder.

[epj]

I tried Tightgroup with cast 9's and the results were catastrophic. Horrible leading within just a few rounds, Leading was so bad the bullets started keyholing. Switched to 231 at a similar speed and the problem disappeared. I suspect the TG was melting the bullet bases.

[9.3X62AL]

9mm.........and 40 S&W. Treat both like rifle calibers--slug the barrel grooves and the throat, and use the largest dimension to determine your sizing diameter. Like rifles, many 9mm's have fast twist rates (1-10" or 4 turns/meter), which is insane for boolits that short. The best attributes of the aftermarket 9mm barrels are not their conventional rifling form--it is their dimensional integrity and slowed twist rate (usually 1-16").

Slugging is kind of a PITA, but it pays off. I have three 9mm's at present, and thankfully all three have throats within a few ten-thousandths under .357". I size at .357", and things go pretty well in the stock barrels (2 SIG-Sauers, 1 Ruger). Most of my loads run just warm enough to assure reliable function, but the Lee and NEI TC 120-125 grainers have enough boolit sidewall to grab the rifling fully and not "skate" when I run them to 1200-1250 FPS. Fairly hard alloy (Taracorp, AKA 92/6/2) and fairly soft lube (Javelina alox) have been my key to success in the high-pressure bottom-feeders.

The 45 ACP with castings will spoil you rotten, comparatively speaking. So easy and uncomplicated. Same story with the 32 ACP. My two favorite cast boolit autopistol calibers, I should add.

[Wilson]

So, I see there's no easy way into successful bullet casting for the 9mm. I don't enjoy experimenting and was hoping for “no brainer” solution, but it seems there's no way around the initial time investment. Due to work I won’t have time to get on this till late next week.
I am a firearms instructor whose primary mission is to introduce non-shooters to the shooting sports and self-defense with firearms, especially youth and women. I do a lot of free and breakeven classes and am looking for an economical way to move folks from rimfire to centerfire.
I'll let you all know how things go. Thanks

[454PB]

As Al said, it's a necessary evil. Luckily, semiauto barrels are about the easiest to slug, and you only have to do it once. You might get lucky and find they can all use the same boolit diameter.

When I make my sizing dies, I slug them to get an accurate measurement of their inside diameter. Rather than use a new slug for each measurement, I use the same one and simply put it in my vice and squeeze it back to a larger diameter for reuse. You might want to use that method to do all your barrels.

[Wilson]

That's a good tip. Thanks.
But so far no one has commented on my choice of mold and Alox from Midway. Is that a no vote? If the barrels slug .356 would this be a good way to go? Please see my original post.

[runfiverun]

you may want to thin out that alox and size then lube again full strength.

[trickyasafox]

oh sorry missed that part. I've used alox with a cap full of mineral spirits as per the recommendations of another poster here. It works very well up to 850-900 feet per second, i've never pushed it faster though so i can't comment on that.

[JIMinPHX]

Unique seems to be the best powder for use in actual Lugar pistols because of the pressure curve that wacky toggle mechanism in them likes to see. Other than that, Blue Dot is a top performer in most other 9-irons, but it is a bit of an expensive powder to use. It takes a lot of grains of BD to get the boolit moving at desirable speeds. Bullseye, W-231 & Tightgroup all work pretty well in most guns with very good economy. Unique sometimes gives less leading than powders like Bullseye, but usually, the real problem lies with boolit diameter or hardness.

[armoredman]

Been using that same boolit out of a 2 cavity Lee mould with good luck. Sized to .356, lubed lightly with LLA, loaded over 6.4gr AA#7 at 1.095, and I get some darn good shootin' out of my CZ PO1. AA#2 might be a good choice for you, get many loads out of a single pound - which is how this poor boy buys his!

[TGM]

I have been shooting 122 grain cast bullets from Bushwacker with 4.9 gr. Unique and have not had any leading problems.The load cronographed at 1120 FPS. I have a S&W 5906.

TGM

[mooman76]

Personally I would go with a small 38 cal bullet mould to ensure you have a big enough bullet(and size down if needed) plus you would have a 38 cal if you needed it latter on. The Lee 105g swc is a good bullet for 9mm and 38. Unique is a little dirty at times but is a very good all around pistol powder and work well in rifle with cast bullets too!

[HeavyMetal]

I think your on the right track with the Lee six banger. I've never done the tumble lube thing as LLA leaves the bullets quite messy.

If your going to use this ammo to train women your going to be loading a lot of mags or your going to get an earful of how dirty hands are getting!

I never thought it made much sense to use LLA and then have to wipe half of it off!

I use the standard Lee 124 with good results over greendot. I believe it's already been mentioned Titegroup has a tendency to lead?

All the pistols you mentioned are current production so I think the issue of a larger than "stock" barrel diameter is not going to be a problem.

I will suggest: 4.0 grains Greendot, Lee 124 grain bullet sized .356, A standard Federal or winchester small pistol primer and winchester or federal case.

This should run about 900 to 950 FPS and shoot to point of aim, at close range.

Load 50 to 100 rounds of this making sure of two things: 1. that the bullets are not seated out to far to go in the mags (load a full mag to be sure) and 2. that they are not to long to chamber in each gun. overall length will be slightly different in each gun so you'll wind up with a compromise length that you can use in everything.

Now fire these rounds in all the guns your planning on doing the training with.

If you have an issue with any or all guns, diagnose as needed. At this point you can also see if your having a leading problem.

In the end I think this load will do what you want in most pistols. If you find this works well in 3 out of 4 guns? I'll suggest you change guns not loads.

Hope this info helps.

[trickyasafox]

If you thin the alox its not too dirty.

*tries to post pic*

http://img138.imageshack.us/img138/4026/lee230grtcbulletsym5.th.jpg (http://img138.imageshack.us/my.php?image=lee230grtcbulletsym5.jpg)


not a great pic- but mine get a very light coating of alox- looks like the boolits get a light stain almost.

I didn't get leading in my gun with this combo- but mine were with a 45- so I guess it'll take some experimenting.

[armoredman]

I lightened up on the amount of LLA I was using quite a bit, now they feel like a light wax coating, and no leading.

[Wilson]

Very good information. I appreciate all who are taking time to educate me. HeavyMetal, your warning about ladies getting dirty hands was priceless!
This is our web site if you'd like to see some of what we are doing.
www.hickmangrouptraining.com

[OBXPilgrim]

so don't be disappointed if there aren't many responses

SEE WHAT I MEAN!!!!

Ok.. I'm a liar. I think I must have hit a nerve or something this time.

[Salmon-boy]

I (my wife, really) have 2 nines that we shoot cast out of. A Browning Hi-Power and a Sig P239. Both eat the Lee 125gr TL. Here's what I've found.

First off, slug the barrel. It REALLY is important. That's how I found out I NEEDED a .358 sized boolit for the Hi-Power. The Sig slugged out right at .355.

Secondly, If you don't want to get into heat treating boolits, Blue Dot hits the spot - Definitely needed in the HP, as I can't get a bullseye load to not tumble and work the action. I have a bunch (2.5K) that I've heat treated, lubed with LLA and are just plain fun to run through the Sig.

I'm probably using too much, but it seems that LLA takes forever to dry as it comes from Midway. Dunno if they're older bottles or what but I have to dilute it about 10% or it's 2 days before boolits are dry enough to load.

Oh, and last thing. Lee Factory Taper Crimp die. I find a firm crimp is a huge help.

[Down South]

Hey Bill, this is Sam over at MC 773. I didn’t realize who you were till you posted your web site. I wanted to post one of my 9MM loads the other day but I don’t have my data with me. I using WSF and one of the harder lubes with my 9’s and my boolits are accurate and clean. I haven’t experimented with LLA yet but I will sometime this week. I just ordered several bottles of it to play with plus I just bought a couple tumble lube moulds.
PM me when you have time. I’m heading home this morning and I’ll be busy all day. My tractor is broke down and I have to get it back up and running sometime today.
If you are wanting some sample boolits lubed with LLA, I’ll probable be able to send some to you before my week off is over. Plus I have some boolits with hard lube if you want to sample those.

BTW, I have tried Titegroup and didn't care that much for it. So far WSF is doing much better. Unique would be a good powder to consider too.

[Wilson]

My order came in from Midway on Friday, but I hit a snag. I found that all the tire shops in town have contracts with salvage companies who pick up their wheel weights. I went to the salvage yard and found that they buy wheel weights for 4 cents a pound and sell them for 75 cents per pound! Now that's a let down. I'm going to call some other salvage yards Monday and put an add in the local "Thrifty Nickel".

[armoredman]

Dirty dogs.

[Cloudpeak]

My order came in from Midway on Friday, but I hit a snag. I found that all the tire shops in town have contracts with salvage companies who pick up their wheel weights. I went to the salvage yard and found that they buy wheel weights for 4 cents a pound and sell them for 75 cents per pound! Now that's a let down. I'm going to call some other salvage yards Monday and put an add in the local "Thrifty Nickel".

Offer the tire stores a contract to buy at $ .10/lb.:-D

Cloudpeak

[HeavyMetal]

And don't tell them what the scrap yards are selling it for or that's what they'll want.

One tire shop may supply you with all the alloy you need but I'd get two on line and do a year contract with an option for 2 more specifiying lead wheel weights only no zinc.

This way you have a steady supply for 3 yrs and you keep them buying lead WW to honor the contract. As a favor to them you can take the zinc stuff and scrap that as they will get some from non regular customers just be sure they understand that as your doing them a favor they need to keep the zinc seperate!

[GabbyM]

The way the shops I've talked to explained it. The WW dealers come around in a truck as do battery sales. They have it written in their contracts to take the scrap ww and dock if they don't have equal weight of scrap. So they couldn't even tell me what they receive for their scrap ww. Sounded to me like they're being taken for a short ride.

[Wilson]

I got to digging around in some lead my cousin gave me five years or so ago and found 35# of wheel weights! I broke out the cast iron pot and turkey fryer. Struck a match and found I was out of propane. No worries, I hurriedly swapped tanks, struck another match and found that the back up was empty too! Oh well tomorrow's a new day. The saga continues!

[Wilson]

I also found about 75# of lead from old telephone wire casing from the same good cousin. Do I need to alloy this? Or do I just cast it and shoot it?

[docone31]

On the topic of 9mm. I have a Star Modelo Super. I have the lee 124 TC two hole mold, and I have a .358 sizer die.
I swear by Blue Dot in all my handgun calibers. It is clean, does real well.
Will I be able to push a .358 down a 9mm bore? The alloy is WW, and Tin. Good sharp moldings.
If I can get away with it, I am going to try 50rds. If that works, I load a days shooting.
Things are tight, so if I can get away with .358, it is worth a try.

[mooman76]

.358 will not be a problem. I use a 105 .358 Lee mould. Some people like .002 over bore size and I have gone bigger than that with jacketed rounds!

[MT Gianni]

I also found about 75# of lead from old telephone wire casing from the same good cousin. Do I need to alloy this? Or do I just cast it and shoot it?

Consider it pure, soft lead. I would consider it too soft for a 9mm and stick with ww. It should be great for BP guns. Gianni

[paul edward]

No experience with the Lee TL356-124-2R. I have used Lyman 356402 truncated cone with 4.5 grains of Winchester 231 powder. These boolits tend to weigh around 123 grains. This load has given good results both High Power and P-38.

You definitely want to slug the bores so you know what diameter boolit to use.

Paul

[paul edward]

No experience with the Lee TL356-124-2R. I have used Lyman 356402 truncated cone with 4.5 grains of Winchester 231 powder. These boolits tend to weigh around 123 grains. This load has given good results both High Power and P-38.

You definitely want to slug the bores so you know what diameter boolit to use.

Paul

[Wilson]

I was able to find 68# of wheel weights for free at a small auto salvage yard and a small local tire shop. These I smelted and cleaned up. I was able to glean 56, 1# ingots. It was a very easy operation.
The first cast secession did not go well! Using my 10# Lyman kit pot, I got a jump on things by ladling already molten lead into it from my big cast iron pot. I placed my new Lee 6 cavity 125 gr. AL mold on the 10# pot to heat but it was taking too long, so I put a corner of the mold into the pot to help heat it. To my great astonishment the whole pot of lead congealed, anchoring my mold in place!
After an exceedingly long time the lead in the pot began to flow. I tried to cast until I ran out of lead, but most all the bullets were unusable. Out of about 100 bullets 12 looked ok. All the rest were partial or wrinkled.
I'm going to try casting out of the large cast iron pot next week. Is there a better way to preheat an AL 6 cavity mold?

[MT Gianni]

Wilson, those are the classic symptoms of cold casting. It has to have more heat. The way I warm up a 6 cavity is to cast 2 bullets in the hole closest to the hinge, then add a hole every 2 casts. Failure to do so will break the handle on the sprue plate. Gianni

[Wilson]

Now that's a good tip! I'll be trying that soon.
Many thanks to all you good folks for walking me through so much of this with your good advice, tips and shortcuts.

[GabbyM]

For preheat I picked up an electric hot plate at some discount store for $10.
If you've an electric stove handy just set the mould right on the coil.
I've several big steel moulds. even my little Lyman 2 cavity with 100 gr. 9mm bullet takes lots of preheat since the boolit is so small. I work it fast as I can for ten minutes or so until bullets get some frost. Then I pick up a second mould off the hot plate to place in rotation. Starts to run into work after a while.

[Cloudpeak]

The 10-12 dollar electric hot plate works very well. Once you get "dialed in" on the proper setting, you can set your mold (I mainly use Lee 6 cavity molds) on the hot plate for 10-15 minutes and you'll be casting good bullets right off the bat.

Cloudpeak

[trickyasafox]

I just set the mold on top of the pot when I start the melt. I'm too cheap to buy a hot plate :)

if I wanna switch molds, when I refill the pot a new mold goes on top.

[Wilson]

I've got a hot plate that's been out of work for sometime now. Guess what... it's got a new job.