Suppressed / subsonic bolt action build - Which caliber?

[fremont]

I've got a VZ24 Mauser long action that I'd like to use for a subsonic suppressed rifle build (pig gun initially). I'd like to stick with the existing bolt face (.473"). I think I'd like to run heavy cast bullets through it exclusively. I'm curious what people think is best for a caliber--I'd use a custom barrel and twist it accordingly.

[Larry Gibson]

35 or 375 Whelen. Both have excellent heavy bullets available. Both can be loaded down to sub sonic very easily. Both can be used at full throttle if needed.

Larry Gibson

[runfiverun]

the twist would be the first thing I'd look at.
case size is pretty moot.
a 1-7 30 caliber barrel would be the easiest to find and would stabilize the 230-240gr boolits the easiest.
that's pretty much the set-up I use with my 300-b.o.
it's not the case I'd pick for your rifle though the 308 or the 308x1.5 would be on my list.
as they should feed easy enough.

now if I wanted a project I'd stick with the 8 mauser case and find a faster twist barrel or have a 30 cal barrel re-bored with the faster twist.
then design a mold in 8mm that weighed a lot [275gr?] and go with that.
the heavier weights will increase the smack down with the slower velocity.

[MT Chambers]

.30 br. would be my pick esp. over the .300 B.O.

[rockrat]

I would go with a 450 bushmaster or 45 raptor or 458 socom. You might also do a 45 win mag. Plenty heavy boolits then

[JeffinNZ]

I would go with a 450 bushmaster or 45 raptor or 458 socom. You might also do a 45 win mag. Plenty heavy boolits then

+1. You want a big hole and as much momentum as you can muster. Too many people suppress a .30cal and go around poking tiny little holes in game and lose them. I reckon the ultimate quiet deer gun would be a rifled 20g slug gun with suppressor.

[petroid]

If subsonic only go big. 358 winchester or 35 Whelen minimum. 375 Whelen better. 40 Whelen 458 socom or 45 raptor best. 458 socom has heaviest bullets but you probably could size down for raptor

[nockhunter]

.358 win. A bigger case is a waste of powder, brass is easily made from .308 win. 200g-300g slugs at 1000fps will kill a hog.

Mike

[fremont]

With a .458" caliber case like the SOCOM or Bushmaster, would I need to modify the VZ24 magwell? And, if it worked, it'd hold maybe...what?...two cases? (Not a huge deal, but I'm curious.)

[Tackleberry41]

Subsonic, weight is where its at. If it was a semi auto, then 300BO seems to be the caliber, yes smaller holes, but easy follow up shots. A bolt gun, then bigger is better. I have a 45-70, it lobs 500gr bullets at 1000fps with ease. The more semi auto friendly case is the 458 SOCOM. I would imagine there will be mods required to get that wide of a case to feed, but the mag itself in a mauser probably not, just less capacity. I bought a faster twist barrel from Green mountain to stabilize that long heavy bullet. Other calibers might not be so easy to get a faster twist barrel.

[Blackwater]

If you want subsonic almost exclusively, the big criteria is getting the minimum case capacity you can to get the velocity you want. The less powder you use, the more efficient your suppressor will be. Pigs don't have great eyesight, but they hear very well, and it doesn't take all that much of a noise to spook them sometimes. If it were me, which it's not, I think I'd give very serious consideration to the .45 Win Mag pistol round. Not too much case capacity, will work with pistol/shotgun powders and lwt. charges, so your suppressor would be as efficient as possible. There'd be plenty of power, and I believe it'd fit the bolt face without alteration. You may need to modify the mag/feeding system, but a simple magazine block for the shorter round might do it. I don't know 'cause I've never tried it. Have only read of this one, and different people using different actions have gotten different results, so it's a one-off kind of thing and you'd need to be prepared to deal with the feeding thing. Shouldn't be too difficut, though, I'd think?

Silencers always work best when the case cap. is as small as possible. The old Brits made the #4 Enfield in .45 ACP specifically for taking out sentries in covert ops in WWII, and it alegedly worked splendidly. What I'd do is kind'a emulate that, with maybe a bit more power. Thus the .45 Win. Mag. instead of the ACP. Still should be mighty quiet though, and you'd have the option of more power and supersonic loads if you should find a need for that too. Would make up into a very interesting gun, I think. Just MHO. Lots of options, and the hardest part is making the pick.

[reed1911]

Agreed, .458 SOCOM pushing a 500g Cast.

The thing you must consider is that with cast you must have a suppressor that can be disassembled for cleaning. The sealed cans will not take to cast for very long.

[petroid]

With a .458" caliber case like the SOCOM or Bushmaster, would I need to modify the VZ24 magwell? And, if it worked, it'd hold maybe...what?...two cases? (Not a huge deal, but I'm curious.)

458 SOCOM and 450 Bushmaster are fatter bodied than 308 or '06. They may or may not feed through the magazine without serious modification and will reduce capacity somewhat. 45 raptor is essentially a longer, 45cal 44 automag. Parent brass is 308 so it might feed through your '06 magazine without a hitch or may need to be opened a bit, but won't decrease capacity.

[Jupiter7]

The other part of the equation not being discussed here: larger bores are harder to supress. Also, supressors for big bores are bigger and heavier. Personally I have two subsonic use guns(both Handi rifles), a 300blk and 357max(1/10 twist). Less powder means less gas in most cases which leads to easier mitigation of gas by the supressor, in turn meaning less decibels. If you're after big, go 50beowulf. Personally, I'd go with the above .358 calibers either 35whelen or 358Winchester.

[Area Man]

Agreed, .458 SOCOM pushing a 500g Cast.

The thing you must consider is that with cast you must have a suppressor that can be disassembled for cleaning. The sealed cans will not take to cast for very long.

On a related note, I would guess suppressors would not be compatible with paper patched bullets, correct? I assume the paper would begin unraveling in the suppressor and cause all sorts of havoc, but that's just my first guess.

When discussing large, slow moving projectiles for taking game, very soft alloy wrapped in a paper jacket is an effective option. I've always been curious if they were mutually exclusive with suppressors.

[Mark454]

Long action? 375 whelen, no doubt.

[reed1911]

@Areaman for the most part yes they are not compatible. With some styles of baffles it is possible to run a PP, but in a general sense; no it is not a good approach.

[longbow]

Here's something different... how about a .444 rimless? They can be made from .308 brass for a short(ish) version to .30-06 for larger case capacity.

For a subsonic boolit I took Dr. Richard Gunn's subsonic .45 and scaled it down to .44:

155982

weight is 407 grs. in wheelweights. Fast twist barrels are scarce but I did find one when I was looking.

I was thinking about converting a Lee Enfield to .444 Marlin or making up a rimless .444 at one point but never got there.

Anyway, just another choice. You'd have to make your own brass but from easily available standard brass to fit standard bolt face.

Longbow

[rockrat]

Suppressors and PP=NO. Just like suppressors and muzzle brakes are a no-no. Would love to try PP out of my bigger bore guns, but the muzzle brake precludes that and you don't want to shoot them without the brake!!

[Jupiter7]

Suppressors and PP=NO. Just like suppressors and muzzle brakes are a no-no. Would love to try PP out of my bigger bore guns, but the muzzle brake precludes that and you don't want to shoot them without the brake!!

Not sure why you think supressors and muzzle brakes are a No-No? Every major supressor manufacturer makes a muzzle brake mount. Some of the most effective brakes are very similar to effective baffles and do the same thing, strip gas, just not in an enclosed space.

I wouldn't shoot paper patch out of a supressor either...

[kweidner]

+1. You want a big hole and as much momentum as you can muster. Too many people suppress a .30cal and go around poking tiny little holes in game and lose them. I reckon the ultimate quiet deer gun would be a rifled 20g slug gun with suppressor.

Or if they would use the right bullets they would expand and kill the animal. no tiny holes when they open.

[kweidner]

Agreed, .458 SOCOM pushing a 500g Cast.

The thing you must consider is that with cast you must have a suppressor that can be disassembled for cleaning. The sealed cans will not take to cast for very long.

if you coat this is not an issue in sealed cans. I do prefer take apart though.

I have read the discussion. Think about this ......if you are building a subsonic rig that is a bolt action why the socom? I have one in a RRA but it is a different animal. Brass is expensive! If i wanted that gun as quiet as possible that kills, think weight and expansion. My 300 BO do excellent with the expanding bullets. I limit myself to 100 yards and have no issues. The 45 caliber heavys do much better but they aren't as quiet. Still hearing safe but not pellet gun. Fast pistol powder will be you friend if you want super quiet probably in 30 cal. The larger bores are louder as you increase diameter. They do more damage though. It's a trade off. Or do like me and just buy em all lol. Tell us how far you want to shoot and what intended game is and it might be easier to steer you. Southeastern GA white tails and smaller hogs is likely your limit with 30 cal.

[reed1911]

Even coated will not be warranty covered in the event of a build up or baffle strike. As for the .458 , he wants to stay with the existing bolt face and with the option of the .458 he can run from 300g to 500g+ all subsonic. I have several .300 Whisper/AAC set-ups and I do love it (have since the '90s) but in subsonic weight is what what make the difference.

[Good Cheer]

Don't have a suppressor but the .44 on a .30-06 case has always appealed to me.
I let a smith talk me out of trying it back when Carter was leaving office and I've regretted it ever since.

[fremont]

Update: Been looking at 375's, e.g., 375-284, 375 Whisper, in order to keep more traditional case body shape & taper (vs 458 SOCOM). Also, maybe because of its current relative scarcity, I'd like to be able to use non-Trail Boss powders that have an appropriately high fill ratio within the usable case capacity, post-seating. Finally, on bullets, should I worry about all cast bullets gunking up the suppressor or just PP ones?

[reed1911]

All non-jacketed will spit some lead and lube, truthfully even jacketed spit some copper (gilding metal). The only difference being that copper does not stick to the baffles like lead does. The only issue is in the use of a sealed can. Those that can be taken apart by the end user are fine for cast since you can clean them. The sealed cans can be cleaned but have to go back to the manufacturer. All the ones I deal with do not warranty them if cast is used.

[Ola]

All non-jacketed will spit some lead and lube, truthfully even jacketed spit some copper (gilding metal). The only difference being that copper does not stick to the baffles like lead does. The only issue is in the use of a sealed can. Those that can be taken apart by the end user are fine for cast since you can clean them.

Absolutely. I have cleaned some .22LR suppressors, that had been used A LOT. The suppressors were almost half full of rock hard lead/dirt mixture. Even getting the baffles out was a serious task.. I'd never buy a sealed suppressor for lead use. And the can should be taken apart before it gets totally stuck.

[Frank46]

458x2". Granted you want to keep the .473 bolt size but just about any full sized magnum case can be cut down to 2". Load it down with a 500gr cast bullet for subsonic use or go the other way for supersonic. Think of it like a 45/70 as the 458x2" can go either way. And they do make heavier bullets (cast of course) in 45 rifle caliber.A lot of the BPCR shooters use the 1x18 twist barrels shooting 500+plus grain bullets. Then again you could turn down the magnum rims down to .473. Something to think about. Look for a remmy 660 or 600 in either 6.5 or 350 magnum and the only thing is you will have to change is the barrel. Frank

[hatti]

i am tinkering with something similar - subsonic that is potent enough for wild boar(not feral pig).

it is based on 308 case and .430 470 grain bullet from Mountain Molds.
i coat bullets,then size them to .433.

i cannot get anything faster than VihtaVuori N133,but it seems to work OK;21 grain of it for near sonic velocity
with 14 inch barrel,15 inch twist.

http://i68.tinypic.com/2n8srxt.jpg

[Blammer]

something in the 45 caliber at 300gr or soo....