International Clays

[skeet1]

Has anyone any experence using Hodgdon International Clays in 303 British or 30-06? Maybe some of our Austrailian friends might know this powder ar AS50N made by ADI in Austrailia and imported by Hodgdon as International Clays. It appears that this powder is similar to Green Dot. I'm hoping that someone may have used this in the past and can give me some direction. I have about 10 lb. of this left over from my shotgun days. It is very good in 20 ga.

[HORNET]

I haven't used Clays, but about 14 gr of Green Dot does well in the '06 with a cast 155 gr. Might give you an area to begin in.

[405]

skeet1,
Looking at the VihtaVuori data, the three different "Clays" powders show different burn rates. Both Clays and Clays International are listed with burn rates faster than Bullseye, Red Dot and 700X. Clays Universal shows to be somewhat slower and is listed as about the speed of Unique and Accurate #5.

Looking at the Lyman data, the relative burn rates are not in the same order.

These discrepancies indicate a cautious approach.

[runfiverun]

universal is probably tour best bet
i called hodgdons about international for use in pistols and was told to forget it
just use it as a shotgun powder.
the impression i got was they were mixing some lots of powder and flake size was inconsistent, so burn rate was fairly unpredictable in other applications.
which aggravated me as i only now use it in 20 ga,8 lbs will last forever.

[skeet1]

I also caled Hodgdons about this powder when I first thought of using it for someting other then shotgun and got about the same reply. Since I have about 10 lb. of the stuff I think I will try using some starting loads for Green Dot.

[runfiverun]

might want to use something to hold it in position, let us know how it works.

[Ron]

AS50N is a pistol/shotgun powder. ADI recommend the following for 303 Brittish
Bullet Weight
(Grains) Powder Type Barrel Length Starting Loads Maximum Loads
Powder Weight
(grains) Velocity
(fps) Pressure Powder Weight
(grains) Velocity
(fps) Pressure

125 Bench Mark 2 24" 40.0 2680 - 44.0 2920 -
125 AR2206 24" 42.0 2635 - 46.0C 2880 -
125 AR2206H 24" 41.0 2791 - 45.0 2931 -
125 AR2208 24" 45.0 2766 - 48.0 2883 -
150 Bench Mark 2 24" 34.0 2450 - 38.0 2605 -
150 AR2206 24" 36.0 2440 - 39.5 2620 -
150 AR2206H 24" 36.0 2447 - 40.0 2627 -
150 AR2208 24" 39.0 2458 - 43.0 2656 -
174 AR2206 24" 34.0 2245 - 37.5 2515 -
174 AR2206H 24" 34.0 2262 - 38.0 2446 -
174 AR2208 24" 38.0 2345 - 42.0 2509 -
174 AR2209 24" 43.0 2266 - 48.0C 2517 -
180 AR2206 24" 33.0 2200 - 37.5 2390 -
180 AR2206H 24" 34.0 2178 - 38.0 2400 -
180 AR2208 24" 37.0 2282 - 41.0 2440 -
180 AR2209 24" 44.0 2295 - 48.0C 2500 -
215 AR2206 24" 35.0 2080 - 39.0 2250 -
215 AR2208 24" 36.0 2130 - 39.5 2265 -
215 AR2209 24" 42.0 2045 - 45.0C 2185 -

[skeet1]

I tried it today with the lee C312-185 bullet and 11.0 gr. of International Clays. Seems to shoot well. I haven't benched it yet but everything looks good. Since International Clays is similar to Green Dot in use and burning rate, I used a lower load using it. If this works well it will be away for me to use up some of the powder I have.

[lathesmith]

Through a recent mix-up I ended up with a 1lb jug of International Clays, and was wondering what to do with it. Looks like you guys saved me the trouble of calling Hodgdon about it; and of course there is no pistol data for this powder listed anywhere. Like skeet, I may try a very light load or two in 45 Colt and see what happens--but then again, I may end up just dumping it on the garden as fertilizer, since I don't load shotguns. Not exactly a very useful or flexible powder.
lathesmith

[skeet1]

Lathesmith,
Hodgdon isn't 100% correct about there being no data for International Clays. If you check the 2007 Hodgdon Basic Reloaders Manual (the free manual they distribute) in the Cowboy action section they list a limited number of hand gun loads for International Clays. These loads are for .38 spl, .44 spl, .44 mag. and .45 long colt. Since you mentioned .45 Long colt I will pass on the listed load for a 250 Gr. Lead RNFP.

Starting 5.4 gr. at 786 fps and 9,200 cup
Maximum 6.0 gr. at 866 fps and 13,400 cup

Hope this is helpful.
Skeet1

[lathesmith]

Skeet1,
Thanks for the info, that's exactly what I needed! I was just looking for a plinker load for 45 Colt and maybe 38 special. This will keep me from having to throw out that Internat'l. BTW, is this a very clean-burning powder, compared to, say, Bullseye? I have high hopes for a nice, clean load,I understand the Clays series are supposed to be some of the cleanest out there.
lathesmith

[runfiverun]

i will definately have to track down a copy of that, maybe it is up on their website now?

[skeet1]

Lathesmith,
In you last message you mentioned .38 spl. loads with International Clays. The listed load for a158 gr. lead SWC is;

starting 3.0 gr. 798 fps at 12,400 cup
maximum 3.5 gr. 903 fps at 16,100 cup

As I said this is out of the Hodgdon 2007 Basic Reloaders Manual in the Cowboy Action section.

Hope this helps out.

Skeet1

[lathesmith]

Skeet1, thanks for the data, it will come in useful. Your post gave me an idea;I just did a quick search and lucked out and found this Hodgdon Data Manual online:

http://nationalbullet.com/pdf/2002CowboyManual.pdf

This should really come in handy, for those of us who like plinker loads and such. Please note, I am not endorsing National Bullet with this link. I had a bad experience with this company in the past, so be warned. But, so far this is the only place I have found this data, so download this PDF while you still have a chance. This is the only place I have found any published handgun loads for International.
Thanks again,
lathesmith

[runfiverun]

that seems to just a tad slower then the clays
as you can use a bit more for about the same velocity, with a bit less pressure.

[auzzie101]

Lathesmith,
Thanks for the link I printed it out this morning. Now I don't have to wonder what I'm going to use that International Clays powder for anymore. Now if I could just find some load data for
W680....

[BerdanIII]

Is this the Winchester (Olin) 680 or a surplus powder with the same number?

From Speer #10 ( " for small capacity rifle cartridges"):

.22 Hornet rifle (same charge weights for pistol, but lower vels., natch)

40 gr. Speer
min. 11.5 grs - 2554 fps max. 12.5 grs. - 2784 fps

45 gr. Speer
min. 11.0 grs. - 2404 fps max. 12.0 grs. - 2630 fps

50 gr. Speer
min 10.5 grs. - 2229 fps max 11.5 grs. - 2455 fps

52gr. Speer Match
min 10.3 grs. - 2213 fps max. 11.3 grs. - 2439 fps.

.30-30 pistol

110 gr. Varminter, RN, spire point
min. 20.0 grs. - 1834 fps max. 18.0 grs. - 1656 fps

130 gr. HP, FN
min. 17.0 grs. - 1555 fps max. 19.0 grs. - 1747 fps

150 gr. FP, BT, spitzer
min. 17.0 grs. - 1373 fps max. 19.0 grs. - 1554 fps

165 gr. BT, spitzer
min. 19.0 grs. - 1513 fps max. 17.0 grs. - 1337 fps.

.30 Carbine pistol

100 gr. Plinker
min. 15.5 grs - 1296 fps max. 16.5 grs. - 1385 fps

110 gr. Varminter
min. 15.5 grs. - 1171 fps max. 16.5 grs. - 1252 fps.

.221 Remington Fireball

45 gr. Speer
min. 16.7 grs. - 2641 fps max. 17.7 grs. - 2817 fps

50 gr. Speer
min. 16.2 grs. - 2537 fps max. 17.2 grs. - 2677 fps

52 gr. Speer HP, Match
min. 15.8 grs. - 2426 fps max. 16.8 grs. - 2601 fps

55 gr. Speer FMJ, spitzer
min. 15.5 grs. - 2361 fps max. 16.5 grs. - 2533 fps

70 gr. Speer
min. 15.0 grs. - 2221 fps max. 16.0 grs. - 2340 fps.

This stuff seems to be floating between IMR4227 and IMR4198 in burn rate.

[Scrounger]

1. You should notice the major reloading manuals use cannister grade powders (Those you can buy at the store) only in their data.
2. If you begin with the starting load data, substituting the numerical equivalent surplus powder would not be a danger. Work up to maximum loads carefully no matter which powder you use.
3. Understand that published loading data, from the Internet or from a printed manual, really only gives you a safe starting point and some idea of where the maximum MIGHT be. That was in their gun, their lot of powder, their lot of bullets, and their shooting conditions. Yours will almost certainly be different. Why do you think the data given in different books varies so much? Looking at their published data, the maximum loads given are of benefit to you in that they can give you some idea which powder will give you the velocity you want to achieve. Once you decide which powder to use, drop back to the starting level and work up. You may or may not be able to reach the same maximum velocity they did.
4. Ballistics is a Science; Reloading is an Art that just happens to involve Ballistics.

[Ricochet]

4. Ballistics is a Science; Reloading is an Art that just happens to involve Ballistics.
How true ! Well said.