Flintlock Pan Powder

[screwcutter]

I'm a flintlock newbie, but I have been grinding up 2f to make my pan priming powder.
I use a small plastic bowl and a rounded plastic screwdriver handle to make fine powder, don't know what f it is equal to but so far it's been working.

[rfd]

using any powder finer than 2f for flintlock pan priming is a 20th century invention as 18th and 19th century locks were primed nothing finer than 2f but more than lilely 1f. so, there is no need to use 4f or attempt to make 2f into 4f for flintlock pan priming. if 2f won't work for reliable and consistent pan ignition, there is a problem with the touch hole, or lock geometry/timing, or a flint issue, or frizzen issue, or pan issue, or something else.

[bedbugbilly]

rfd - while military rifles with large locks were primed with powder from the cartridge, I think you'd find that many rifles/fowlers were primed with finer powder. If not, then why the existence of many original small priming horns in surviving two horn sets? While I'm sure many just used the powder in their main horn to prime with, even in those days not all locks were created equal. Not trying to argue . . . just stating that original priming horns and two horn sets do exist so to say that only 2F was used is questionable . . . and I'd like to see the documentation on that.

Screwcutter . . . I've been shooting BP for over 50 years and a lot of that with flint locks. I have had a lot of rifles . . mainly ones that I custom built and used such locks as Davis, Chambers, etc. on. Like any modern gun . .. . . ML are no different. Each has a personality of their own. Proper vent placement is important and the geometry and speed of the lock also come in to play. I have a Fusil-de-Chasse that I built that can fire with no problems using the same 2F that I'm charging the barrel with. I built a 26 caliber Virginia Rifle many years ago . . .used a Durs Egg lock on it and I could not get it to fire consistently with anything but 3F or 4F in the pan. I tried a variety of flint types, had a good shower of sparks but coarser grain powder just wouldn't ignite 100% of the time.

If you have the chance to buy a pound of 4F . . . that will work fine and a pound will last you for a very long time for priming. I have done the same as you describe only used a spoon and glass custard cup or a ceramic motor & pedestal to grind up 1F or 2F finer to fill my priming horn. I think "in general", you'd find that the larger the lock the coarser the powder you could use for priming. A Trade Gun lock or military lock with a large pan and a 1" or larger flint will normally work fine with coarser priming powder. A smaller lock . . such as used on rifles and using a smaller flint may need finer priming powder. All depends on the individual lock and rifle and how well tuned it is to get the best spark shower in to the pan. A very small lock, such as the "Becky's Lock" would probably work much better with fine priming powder but I have only used that lock once in a small rifle build many years ago.

Vent hole location is "everything". Some folks think that the proper location is towards the bottom of the pan . . . it's not. The priming powder has to burn down if placed in that manner. The vent wants to be high so that when the sparks hit the priming powder and it goes "poof", the flame quickly enters through the vent to set the charge off. A well tuned flintlock should have very quick ignition with no noticeable delay.

When I hunted here in Michigan with my Fusil or rifles, it was pretty much assured that the weather would be damp, wet . . possibly rainy, snowy, etc. I always tried to keep my lock . . especially the pan area, covered. If I was out for a long time, it was very normal to dump the priming powder and reprise the pan to insure that the high humidity/dampness didn't get to the priming powder even though the frizzed is tight to the pan, etc. There's nothing more frustrating than to finally getting a shot only to have you lock go clunk, a nice shower of sparks and then "nothing". As they say . . "keep your powder dry".

In the end . . . use the granulation of powder that works "best for your rifle/fowler".

[rfd]

from my research over the years, i've not read of any use of an 18th century priming horn, nor 19th century, though my focus is mainly the 18h century. all ball and pan loads were accomplished with the same powder horn, using the same powder granularity. this is absolutely true with military paper rounds that were bitten and some grains sprinkled into the pan before the rest of the powder went down the barrel along with the paper held ball (i.e. brown bess). observations from era documents and retrieved samples also suggest black powder of yore was in some ways different from most of today's manufactured black powder.

what i'm suggesting is to consider using 2f or 3f for both barrel and pan, make gear and shooting simpler and a bit less complex. a decade or so ago i dropped using 2f & 4f in favor of 3f for both barrel and pan. having a good gun, with a good lock is imperative, or all bets are off and it's back to finer black powder use.

my rifles and fowlers get very fast ignition with nothing but goex 3f.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Wp8mFXphEQ4

[rfd]

my rifles and fowlers get very fast ignition with nothing but goex 3f.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FVPk-aDNqx0

[pietro]

.

Yep - I started priming my .50cal rocklocks over 15 years ago with the same FFFg (Holy Black) I've been using for the main charge. (aka: K.I.S.S. ;) )

.

[square butte]

If you decide you want to go the other way - Swiss makes NULL-B. Super fine priming powder. Some high speed tests have shown it to be just a tad wee bit faster than 4F. Some target types swear by it.

[rfd]

from my perspective, locks that are tuned well, with good components, good geometry and timing, good flint, correct hardness frizzen, proper touch hole, all parts cleaned, will care less if the pan has null-b or 1f in it, and all will make the main charge go bang. the difference i've seen in pan ignition, from my personal testing of 4f and null-b (both powders were swiss) versus 2f (goex) in a quality .45 curtis rifle with a tuned siler-chambers lock, were inconsequential to both myself and onlookers of the testing. if you want to use a traditional sidelock long gun, it pays big dividends to invest in quality, and understanding.

most of the production rifles and smoothbores just don't have well tuned locks and/or have not-so-good components, that might be coupled with shooter inexperience, and the result of all of this is inconsistent pan/charge ignition, and a reason to move on to a percussion cap production rifle, or just quit traditional muzzleloaders and opt for an inline zip gun for primitive hunt seasons. i can understand such frustration. there is a cure. it's knowledge ... and probably some money, too.

[Hanshi]

I prime with 4F which is FAST! On occasion I've primed with 3F and found it quite satisfactory. 2F is just too slow for our precision rifles. Grinding powder isn't worth the effort.

[rfd]

I prime with 4F which is FAST! On occasion I've primed with 3F and found it quite satisfactory. 2F is just too slow for our precision rifles. Grinding powder isn't worth the effort.

though 2f has worked out just fine, using 3f for barrel and pan has been the better arrangement for me.

[screwcutter]

Thanks for all of the advice, I am going to experiment with other powder granulations. I may be sandbagging a little calling myself a flintlock newbie. I had a nice custom .32 flintlock I got from a friend many years ago, don't remember details but he had it all setup I used 4f priming & 3f main charge. I shot it a lot for several years, the only thing I ever did was make sure the flint was tight and proper cleaning and I sold it back to him. I could never understand flintlock troubles until realized the quality of that rifle, I thought they were all like that one. Awhile back I got the Flintlock itch and got a Lyman GPR .54 round ball gun, I studied up on how crappy production locks are supposed to be and was prepared for the worst. Didn't want to spring for 4f, so I ground up some 2f to prime with. I am somewhat impressed as to how it works, so far a loose flint is the only issue I've had and that was my fault for not checking. I am going to go with 3f after I use up my 2f and will try priming with it and I will try 2f priming too. Thanks again! mr

[Tatume]

Personally, I would be concerned about using plastic to grind black powder. Plastic has the capacity to generate static charge. If it was me, I would use a metal spoon and bowl.

[fouronesix]

screwcutter,
The weaknesses of a flintlock are reliability and speed of ignition. Seems like the best flintlock pan powder would be the quickest (easiest) to ignite and fastest to burn… therefore the better to use. If that is not true then go ahead and prime with something like Pyrodex 2F (RS) and see how it goes. So, seems worth it to continue testing to see what works best in your flintlock. Unless I'm all off base, 4F burns faster than 1F, 2F or 3F. I have never been under the impression that using a fine priming powder in a flintlock pan violated some historical correctness rule! Historically, with many shooters, more of a convenience thing than a no-no….. I imagine. Will basic 2F or 3F or whatever granulation ignite in the pan?- of course. Is it faster than a finer granulation?- I doubt it.

Also, I don't think a relatively low amp static charge in a plastic mortar a/o pestle has much chance of igniting graphited BP. Other things during handling would be much more likely to cause ignition, so handling BP does require a smart level of care… as with any powder, cap, primer, etc.
http://www.ctmuzzleloaders.com/ctml_experiments/sparks/sparks.html

[rfd]

know for sure, see for yerself, do some burn testing both outside of a lock, and then fired in a lock, comparing 4f to 3f to 2f - you may be happily surprised at the results, but then again maybe not as it's not just the powder granularity that matters when it's in the pan. what's absolutely critical are the points i outlined above. personally, this business of the absolute need for 4f speed is way over rated. i get just as fast ignition with 3f. and i only need one powder horn.

[Tatume]

Personally, I would be concerned about using plastic to grind black powder. Plastic has the capacity to generate static charge. If it was me, I would use a metal spoon and bowl.


Also, I don't think a relatively low amp static charge in a plastic mortar a/o pestle has much chance of igniting graphited BP.

Having watched people smoke cigarettes while handling black powder, I'm forced to the conclusion that smoking doesn't have much chance of igniting graphited black powder either. Nevertheless, I would be concerned about smokers handling black powder in proximity to me.

[square butte]

Some testing has already been done for you on burn and ignition speed by Larry Pletcher at Black Powder Magazine. Pretty sure there is good video on the website of those tests.

[square butte]

Just took a look at Larry's data sheet over at the Blackpowdermagazine.com website which compares ignition times of many granulations and a couple of manufacturers (Swiss & Goex) - It's a great chart. Roughly the spread between ignition times for NULL B and 3F is .015 to .025. Check it out for those who want the exact numbers.

[rfd]

no matter what the black powder brand or granulation, ignition speed will also depend greatly on the lock in question, its timing and geometry, the flint's sharpness and angle/distance to the frizzen, and the frizzen hardness, and other factors. locks can be quite unique, for sure.

[bangerjim]

Personally, I would be concerned about using plastic to grind black powder. Plastic has the capacity to generate static charge. If it was me, I would use a metal spoon and bowl.

Go to a culinary store and buy a small mortar & pestle used to grind herbs. Heck, Walmart probably even sells them in their cooking section. I have 3 different sizes of them. No plastic, no metal, just stone or rock doing the grinding. Not that expensive.

The wife picked up a HUGE one made of granite at Costco some time back to make Mexican dips in. Grinds GREAT! I find my smaller ones are perfect for chemical & powder grinding in small batches.

I also have 2 antique apothecary ones from the Civil War era used by chemists (and probably gun powder grinders!) that are made of heavy bronze.

banger

[pietro]

.

Yep - the use of non-ferrous (non-magnetic) metal, or stone/ceramic, pestles, to grind gunpowder, is the safest/best practice.



.

[pietro]

.

OOPS ! (pilot error)


.

[Col4570]

I crush Swiss No3 with a Glass Rolling Pin it works just fine.

[Tatume]

Glass can generate static charge too.

[rfd]

mortar and pestle - rock, wood, ceramic.

[Col4570]

Glass can generate static charge too.
Thanks for that,mortar and pestle it will be.

[Col4570]

mortar and pestle - rock, wood, ceramic.
Thanks I have some hardwood so a mortar and pestle will be my next project.

[Nobade]

Hey RFD, thanks for sharing the videos here. That Tip Curtis rifle sure is fast! That's how they are supposed to work.

Another thing I have learned about priming powder is I get better results with homemade. It's not glazed and seems quite a bit easier to ignite than glazed sporting powder. If anybody has access to any FA grade powder (as opposed to Fg) you might want to try that. As a bonus it's quite a bit cheaper. Powder Inc. has it, though I don't know if they ship it or not since it comes in plastic bags instead of cans.

-Nobade

[fouronesix]

Mechanically grinding BP down a little, as the OP is doing/asking about, would expose more of the raw BP surface thus mitigating the effects of coatings or glazings…. I'd think.

Here's a link to the page that has been referred to a couple of times in this thread… in case anyone wants to look at some actual data with a minimum of bias. :)
http://www.blackpowdermag.com/category/articles/experiments/

And as to whether or not priming horns for different pan powder are historically correct? Here's a very small horn dating to late 1700s - early 1800s that suggests there were such. Pre-dates small caliber revolvers by at least 50 years and much too small for the average large caliber pistols of the time. Small original horn next to average size horn.

[waksupi]

Hey RFD, thanks for sharing the videos here. That Tip Curtis rifle sure is fast! That's how they are supposed to work.

Another thing I have learned about priming powder is I get better results with homemade. It's not glazed and seems quite a bit easier to ignite than glazed sporting powder. If anybody has access to any FA grade powder (as opposed to Fg) you might want to try that. As a bonus it's quite a bit cheaper. Powder Inc. has it, though I don't know if they ship it or not since it comes in plastic bags instead of cans.

-Nobade

In the Revolutionary period, powder for British arms was stipulated to be un-glazed.

[DIRT Farmer]

I shoot mainly clay targets with flint shotguns and trade guns. The only thing that matters is consistant ignition. I do want as fast as I can get but every load has to be the same. I use ffffg Goex mainly in the pan. i have used from 7f [Dupont recoverd from hand gernades many years ago]to 3f and swiss null B. Larger trade gun locks and musket locks will lite every thing and in my brown bess with a good flint will average firing the main charge better than 1 time in 10 with out priming. The double flint shotgun with L&R Manton locks works much better with very fine priming.

[Bardo]

i got a prescription plastic bottle and put some 32-45 cal lead round balls in with some 3f. Put the lid on and just shaked it back in forth. Made the powder real fine. I didnt worry about it being plastic. Goex has been putting there powder in plastic bottles for a few years now. I also used some black powder flour when i was making my own powder. The charcoal was made from aspen and it burned real quick. But i couldnt shoot a flintlock consistant to save my live. So i couldnt tell you if it was an improvement.

Bardo

[fixit]

Something I did when I was a teenager and wanted ultrafine Blackpowder was to use a pepper grinder that had all brass components. Did a wonderful job of making really find black powder and to my recognition absolutely no possibility Of a spark

[Good Cheer]

Always remember folks to ask for Jacks Battle Powder.
It works fine in the pan and your balls will be happy.
[smilie=w:[smilie=w:[smilie=w:[smilie=w:

But it caint do nothin' for that much windage.

[rfd]

....

And as to whether or not priming horns for different pan powder are historically correct? Here's a very small horn dating to late 1700s - early 1800s that suggests there were such. Pre-dates small caliber revolvers by at least 50 years and much too small for the average large caliber pistols of the time. Small original horn next to average size horn.

small horns were used as "day horns" for hunting, large horns were for warfare and trekking (longhunters). it would be big news indeed if someone uncovered historical text/verbiage that clearly defined an 18th or 19th century horn built expressly for priming the pan. not saying it isn't so, but i ain't holding my breath about it. from what i've read, at least for the 18th and the early part of the 19th centuries, unglazed 1f or 2f was the norm for personal arms.

[fouronesix]

small horns were used as "day horns" for hunting, large horns were for warfare and trekking (longhunters). it would be big news indeed if someone uncovered historical text/verbiage that clearly defined an 18th or 19th century horn built expressly for priming the pan. not saying it isn't so, but i ain't holding my breath about it. from what i've read, at least for the 18th and the early part of the 19th centuries, unglazed 1f or 2f was the norm for personal arms.

I've heard the small horns called pocket horns and day horns- but wasn't around 200 years ago to ascertain their actual use. The small ones seem too small to be used for charging any larger caliber long gun or pistol- no matter if for a day's shooting or week's trekking.

Seems obvious (but maybe not), historically the common and convenient practice by some of using the same powder for both main charge and pan does not preclude the use of a pan powder by others.

[rfd]

I've heard the small horns called pocket horns and day horns- but wasn't around 200 years ago to ascertain their actual use. The small ones seem too small to be used for charging any larger caliber long gun or pistol- no matter if for a day's shooting or week's trekking.

Seems obvious (but maybe not), historically the common and convenient practice by some of using the same powder for both main charge and pan does not preclude the use of a pan powder by others.

if there was such a thing as a priming horn, i doubt its use was prevalent as it would mean at the very most grinding the finest powder available during those times, which equates to our 2F. alas, without historical documentation we may never know for certain, and there is a Huge amount of parchment/paperwork still available from those centuries. still, no real need for a separate priming powder here in the 21st century, at least for me. makes loading a tad easier and the results are hard for me to argue against.

[waksupi]

if there was such a thing as a priming horn, i doubt its use was prevalent as it would mean at the very most grinding the finest powder available during those times, which equates to our 2F. alas, without historical documentation we may never know for certain, and there is a Huge amount of parchment/paperwork still available from those centuries. still, no real need for a separate priming powder here in the 21st century, at least for me. makes loading a tad easier and the results are hard for me to argue against.

I would imagine way back when, a separate priming horn would be rare. One powder for all. I shoot a lot of competition, and can definitely tell there is a difference in ignition using 4f, vs 3f.

[Motor]

I use 4f in my pan. I'm still using the same pound I bought in the early 90s.:)

I just love it when guys say "oh just use 2F" Well I have and yes it does work but I've also had granules of burning 2F hit me in the face while using it. This never happens with 4F.

It seems a lot of people who comment on shooting BP only shoot in ideal conditions. Many things that work fine in ideal conditions don't always do so well when you are in the woods in freezing temperatures and high humidity.

[rfd]

no one should tell anyone what to do or use. at best, you report your experiences and allow others to form their own opinions whether in thought or deed or both. just enjoy whatever it is that makes you most happy. i think it's fair to say that most of enjoy our muzzleloaders. How we each load 'em, shoot 'em, and care for 'em, well that's not just a good thing, it's a Great Thing.

[BigAl52]

no one should tell anyone what to do or use. at best, you report your experiences and allow others to form their own opinions whether in thought or deed or both. just enjoy whatever it is that makes you most happy. i think it's fair to say that most of enjoy our muzzleloaders. How we each load 'em, shoot 'em, and care for 'em, well that's not just a good thing, it's a Great Thing.

Well said and I couldn't agree more...Al

[OverMax]

On a couple occasions I had a senior moment or two when packing for my B/P hunt'in trip here at the house. Dang it!! forgetting my powder horns (Priming & Charging) not once but twice over the years sure was depressing to say the least.
It's a {250 mile drive to my littl Ol' log cabin set back in its hunting woods some.} A half hour or so after supper & dishes done. The night before seasoning opening. The very first time I found myself in that unusual situation. Some thought was given as to how I go about remedying. Well it turned out I decided to chop up that 2-F Gorex I had at left in the cabin from a prior years hunting visit. (1/2 lb in its can) With a single edge safety razor blade. I chopped some of that cabin powder up on a turned over china saucer. Only because I found B/P powder will not stick to fired china. As to its finished chopped size? I haven't a clue. What ever size it turned out to be I primed my rifles pan with it. That's what I like about B/P gents its so versatile down the tube or in the pan you can always make it work. Even in a pinch.

[Tatume]

I keep a beaded medicine bag tied to the trigger guard of my rifle. In it are components to load and fire one shot, including a spare flint. That way, no matter what I forget to bring, I can still hunt.

[OverMax]

Tatume: I was very lucky to have some spare powder available on those two occasions. As I would have had to drive 90 miles one way to fine and buy it. That's a great Tip you commented.

[Tatume]

Thank you Max. Merry Christmas, Tom

[John Boy]

Smaller powder grains will always produce faster pan ignition and ignition in general. Swiss Null-B sieve ratios compared to Goex FFFg ( larger the mesh #= smaller the grain size) are:
Swiss Null-B
1.096 - Density
40 Mesh - Trace Hold
50 Mesh - Trace Hold
60 Mesh - Trace Hold
70 Mesh - Pass
80 Mesh - 99.9% Hold

Goex 3Fg
20 mesh - trace retained
30 mesh - 70.8% retained
40 mesh - 26.2% retained
Through - 3.0%

[Geezer in NH]

Personally, I would be concerned about using plastic to grind black powder. Plastic has the capacity to generate static charge. If it was me, I would use a metal spoon and bowl.Static Will Not ignite black powder as per many studies.

[Crawdaddy]

Just bought my first flintlock and tomorrow will be its maiden voyage to the range. Great thread.

[Tatume]

Static Will Not ignite black powder as per many studies.

Usually black powder is in the form of granules, and it is unlikely that static electricity will ignite a granule. When grinding black powder fine dust is generated, and static electricity can and will ignite airborne dust. If fact, many forms of dust can and have been ignited by static electricity, killing lots of people. Examples include coal dust in processing plants and mines, grain and peanut husk dust in elevators, and black powder dust in black powder factories. Dust need not be contained for ignition to take place. The high concentration of dust in the microcosm of the grinding environment can be ignited if the spark is introduced directly into the mixture. This is why implements that can generate static electricity should be avoided.