still struggling with the 30-40 krag.

[gusbratz]

I posted here a week or so ago with a long story of my very slow progress with the hobby of casting. you guys seemed to have very specific questions so i thought i would try again with more specific data. i can not get under a 3-4" group at 100yards. my rifle has been cleaned and cleaned to get the bore free of copper. it has a weaver k4-c3 scope on it. the barrel slugs .308 muzzle and chamber end. carefully measuring the slug between the lands shows .301 or .302. i have unsuccessfully tried several molds. the latest one i am using now is a lee 303 brit mold C312-185-1r . It casts 180 grain bullets that measure .312 on the driving bands with a .302 nose. i then crimp on aluminum gas checks and size to .311 with an old lyman 45. it still has the original lyman ideal lube in it and it is brown in color. i assume it is beeswax/alox. it came with a new stick still in the 1950's box. I am using cci primers. i full length size the dies on an old herters press and expand with a lee case expander before seating bullets. I have fired 3 shot groups at 40 yds and 100 yards since i got it. here is some data so far. should i get a different bullet sizing die or change my lube or keep lowering my charges? i am getting down to 1500fps and I thought I would be in the 1900-2000 range with cast bullets. thanks.

AT 40 YARDS
30 gr imr4895 3 shot group (err,1819fps,err) 3" group
35 gr imr4350 3 shot group (1759fps,1794fps,1797fps) 1.5" group
34 gr H380 3 shot group (1907fps,1934fps,1954fps) pissing with the scope no group availabe
35 gr H380 3 shot group (1984fps,1975fps,2019fps) 2" group
36 gr H380 3 shot group (2119fps,2029fps,err) 2.5" group
37gr H380 3 shot group (err,2011fps, err) pissing with the scope no group available

AT 100 yards
29 gr imr 4350 3 shot grop (1459fps,1481fps,1460fps) shots fell below target no group available
30 gr imr4350 3 shot group (1530fps,1441fps,1569fps) 3" group
33 gr imr4350 3 shot group (1615fps,1622fps,1713fps) 4" group
34 gr imr4350 3 shot group (1692fps.1735fps,1720fps) 7" group

33 gr H380 3 shot group (err2,1971fps,err1) 5" group
34 gr H380 3 shot group (1945fps,1916fps,1946fps) 4" group

[Scharfschuetze]

Is your Lee die actually an expander die or is it the Universal Belling die?

If it's the belling die, you are probably not expanding your necks at all and may be crushing the diameter of your cast boolits down when seating them in an overly tight neck.

If you only have the belling die, you need either the Lyman expanding die for 31 calibre boolits or the RCBS equivalent die.

You might also replace the old lube in your die if you are getting any hints of leading. That lube sounds awfully old.

[gusbratz]

its the "lee universal expanding die" i set it up so it kisses the top of the case to flare it out so the lead does not shave off when i seat the bullet. Then i set my crimping die up to squeeze the flare back in after the bullet is seated to keep it from catching when feeding/chambering rounds.

[Shiloh]

My Krag, which slugs .3096 IIRC, Shoots the .314299 boolit quite well. I size with a .312 Lyman die, that has been opened up about
.0004. This is from memory. I cast an adequate supply of boolits some time ago. I am also using a faster powder.
I use 4227 and 4759 clone. Your velocities are a lot closer than I thought they would be.

Years ago, with 4895, I found myself shooting over a late fresh snow. I found unburned powder about 15' or so in front of the muzzle. Is there unburnt powder in the bore??

Shiloh

[Scharfschuetze]

Gus,

I'm thinking that our die, while called the Universal Expanding Die, does nothing but flare the case mouth to seat a cast boolit. That's my suspicion anyway as I also use this device, but only to flare the lip of the case as it does not expand the internal diameter of the neck.

Is this what you have?

http://www.midwayusa.com/product/140461/lee-universal-neck-expanding-die

If so, you still need to get a true expanding die with the proper diameter expanding plug. Lyman M Die for 31 calibre rifle is your best bet.

Here is a link and also a screen shot which is pretty self explanatory. Compare that with what your Lee die is doing. Hopefully I'm wrong, but that's my suspicion anyway.

[Scharfschuetze]

My as issued 1898 Krag is about a 3 MOA rifle day in and day out. I use the Lyman 314299 boolit sized to .313" diameter with NRA formula Alox lube. I expand the ID of the neck with a .311" expander plug for a "just snug enough" fit that does not reduce the diameter of the boolit to any extent.

5744 and 4759 powders have been my useful propellants for velocities in the neighborhood of 1850 fps.

[Der Gebirgsjager]

You could try not crimping, since you're firing them one at a time off a bench, and presumably not running them through your magazine.

[edctexas]

You could buy a NOE expander plug for your Lee die. I reload 308W and use the NOE plug in the Lee expander body. The Lee die did not really do the job as the boolit was still squashed by the case neck. The NOE plug are less than $7, if you have the lee die.

Ed C

[runfiverun]

try just shooting a group of 5 with some hornady or whatever brand you got 150-165-170gr bullets.
use the same loads your using now [sept the 4350 low loads with that powder gives me the willies for some reason]
compare the groups.

[gusbratz]

i have done as you suggested and loaded 5 rounds with some 180 grain copper jacket bullets i had left over from when i was trying jacked ammo. i did see unburned powder in the barrel between shots. I followed the exact same case prep steps as i have been with cast bullets. on the left you see the target of 3 shots of 34 grain of imr 4350 with a cast bullet at 100 yards, in the middle you see 5 shots of jacketed ammo with 34 grain of imr 4350 at 100 yards. the jacketed bullet speeds were 1571,1727,1514,1517,1699
http://i1211.photobucket.com/albums/cc437/gusbratz/shooting/30-40%20krag%20003_zpsw8yulyiw.jpg (http://s1211.photobucket.com/user/gusbratz/media/shooting/30-40%20krag%20003_zpsw8yulyiw.jpg.html)
http://i1211.photobucket.com/albums/cc437/gusbratz/shooting/30-40%20krag%20001_zpshodpcpmh.jpg (http://s1211.photobucket.com/user/gusbratz/media/shooting/30-40%20krag%20001_zpshodpcpmh.jpg.html)

[Der Gebirgsjager]

You know, your problem is becoming both increasingly interesting and exasperating. I like Krags, and have more of them than one person should be allowed to own, and have found them to be pretty individualistic as to what they like when it comes to cast bullets/boolits. If I'm comprehending all of your data correctly, you seem in general to be getting about the same results with jacketed bullets at 100 yds. as you are with your cast bullets with one exception, which is your 180 gr. cast .311 dia. gas checked/30 gr. of IMR 4350 with which you shot a 3 inch 3-shot group at 100 yds., and which is actually better than your jacketed bullet load. If that is truly the case, there's your load, or at least the area where you should be concentrating. It looks like 4350 is definitely your powder. When you consider all of the boolit designs and all of the powder possibilities the possible loads become almost infinite. I don't really see anything wrong with your reloading technique as you describe it. You might try Scharfshuetze's powders (5744 & 4759) and get a recommendation from him on how much he uses. But---it may not be the magical answer for your gun, and you've already found, as I stated, a good foundation on which to build.

[Scharfschuetze]

I'm going to take a slightly different tact than "Der Gebirgsjaeger," although he is usually spot on.

The vertical stringing of your groups can be attributed to a couple of different things. My first thoughts without actually looking at the rifle is that:

1. Your bedding may be the issue and old dried wood might be the culprit here. Glass bedding the stock's recoil bearing surface might help. The right two targets show a horizontal dispersion of only a Minute of Angle or so if shot at 100 yards and only about 2 MOA if shot at 50 yards.

2. Your choice of powders may be the suspect here, although your chronograph results seem pretty uniform other than the odd low velocity reading. Vertical stringing, particularly at long range, is often the result of inconsistent or incomplete ignition. Options here would be a stronger primer if you can such as the Federal 215 or using a faster powder as I do. Your report of unburned powder in the bore seems to back up this suspicion. As you already know, reduce your load and work back up when changing components.

Remember that Krags, while popular as match rifles back in the early 20th Century, are not bench rest rifles and one should not expect them to be so. Until that advent of modern components, barrels suffered from the effects of both erosive and corrosive priming, although that doesn't explain why your Krag is challenged vertically.

I might add, that while a single three or five shot group is an indicator, a series of five shot groups with the same components will tell you much more. As an old National Match shooter, I depend on 10 shot groups for the story as 10 shots make up a string in most of the bullseye competitive events.

[runfiverun]

that 5 shot group with the jacketed is actually very good.
where it went wrong is the velocity variations threw the shots up high.
drop them back down where they belong and you have a solid 1" group.
unfortunately the 4350 is doing just as I expected it to in the lower amounts.

I think if it were me I would revisit the 4895 load.
drop the load down a tick and use a powder positioner [Dacron filler]
that should settle down the velocity variations and give you an absolute to start working from.

[gusbratz]

i have had a thought, this rifle has been sporterized. as a kid growing up i only shot about 2 shots before hunting season and if it was 6" low my dad would say just aim 6" high. DON'T TOUCH THE SCOPE KID! then in my 20's it was mine to do with as i pleased. I put an original krag carbine stock on it and got rid of the sport stock. since then i don't remember having any success. i don't know anything about bedding or floating barrels but maybe i need to bed it into the military stock i added. also the military stock has a real stout band where the sling attaches where the sport stock had none.
http://i1211.photobucket.com/albums/cc437/gusbratz/shooting/krag%20003_zpsegwfesey.jpg (http://s1211.photobucket.com/user/gusbratz/media/shooting/krag%20003_zpsegwfesey.jpg.html)
http://i1211.photobucket.com/albums/cc437/gusbratz/shooting/krag%20002_zpsjomgo1po.jpg (http://s1211.photobucket.com/user/gusbratz/media/shooting/krag%20002_zpsjomgo1po.jpg.html)
http://i1211.photobucket.com/albums/cc437/gusbratz/shooting/krag%20001_zpstrsqehoe.jpg (http://s1211.photobucket.com/user/gusbratz/media/shooting/krag%20001_zpstrsqehoe.jpg.html)

[catskinner]

If you have IMR 4227 try that powder. About 16-18 gr. My Krag get about 1600-1700 fps with that charge and 190 gr. Old west bullet. Reliabiably gets 1.5 - 2.0 moa groupa out to 200 yards in CBA competition.

[Scharfschuetze]

I put an original krag carbine stock on it and got rid of the sport stock. since then i don't remember having any success.

Might be the suspect. Try shooting without the barrel band. Perhaps a friend can help you with checking out the bedding and if there is any improper pressure on the barrel in the barrel channel.

[fourarmed]

Have you checked the scope? Maybe on another rifle known to shoot small groups. Sometimes those old Weavers develop parallax. Put the rifle on bags so that it is solid, then move your eye left and right and see if the reticle moves relative to the target. If you see more than an inch or so of movement, the scope is probably the culprit. You might look carefully at that side mount, too.

If all is well with the scope, I would suggest trying some faster powders, as other posters have suggested. My Krag shoots cast very well with 17 gr. of 2400, and its bore is far from pristine.

[Char-Gar]

My best bet if you are having rifle issues and not load issues, most likely induced by the stock switch.

The rear of the magazine box serves as the recoil lug and must bear firmly against the stock wood. Any back and forth play is death on accuracy. This can be corrected with bedding compound or shims.

There is always the potential issue with the scope and mounts. Make certain all screws (base and rings) are tight. Also make certain the action screws are tight as well. You might try removing the scope and using the iron sights at 50 yards to find out you are having scope issues.

What are those boat tail jacketed bullets are they old USGI 172s with the tip opened up. If they are old "Match" 172s, they are probably junk. The dies wore out on years before they stop making them and the last runs are terrible. I have thousands that are worthless for anything but close range plinking.

[abearir]

Late to the party but my all original 96 shoot best with 220gr pills pushed with 2400.......