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mooman76
11-27-2015, 05:32 PM
I decided today was a good day to cast being cold and windy outside. Doing it in the garage where is colder than my house but being Vegas, not really that cold, about 45 degrees. I was getting low enough in the pot I could add some lead and had a diving weight that has been sitting on my bench for at least 6 months and I have had it a few years. It was absolutely dry so I'm thinking the temp difference caused it or maybe a large air bubble inside. I slowly put it in, putting the corner in first for a few seconds and then let it drop the rest of the way in. My pot started bubbling like it was boiling and I knew right off I was in trouble so I started backing away and then it happened. Exploded all over my work bench. I only got a few specs on my clothes but about ten# of lead all over my bench and some on the floor. Spent about an hour cleaning up. Most came up easy but the stuff that stuck to plastic and cloth near the bench are abit harder to clean up. I also stand on a foam mat and it won't come off it without destroying it so it will stay. Keep your guard up!

Bonz
11-27-2015, 05:45 PM
It happens so fast there is just no way to stop it. I admit not wearing the correct personal protective stuff on (most of the time) while casting bullets or cores and I'm sure that I will regret that one day. I really need to buy some welding sleeves and a heavy apron because I cast while seated.

bangerjim
11-27-2015, 06:16 PM
Always......Always.......ALWAYS.....preheat your feed ingots (and molds!) to FULL casting temperature ( not just warm). Saves tons of time and will prevent that extreme temp differential boil you just say.

It was NOT moisture. It was the extreme temp differential between the 45F lead hunk and your 750ish pot.

I have seen that B4 I started preheating. And that feed lead was AZ desert dry!.

Heat using the hotplate and you will be safe and good to go.

banger

pretzelxx
11-27-2015, 06:21 PM
Holy crud sticks. I was about to start casting with winter weather. Lesson learned. Never take shortcuts.

Eddie17
11-27-2015, 06:26 PM
Just came in from casting. bangerjim is spot on! Do not drop a large alloy block into the mix.
Emptied my Lee 20LB twice, Go slow when you resupply the pot!

mooman76
11-27-2015, 06:29 PM
Always......Always.......ALWAYS.....preheat your feed ingots (and molds!) to FULL casting temperature ( not just warm). Saves tons of time and will prevent that extreme temp differential boil you just say.

It was NOT moisture. It was the extreme temp differential between the 45F lead hunk and your 750ish pot.

I have seen that B4 I started preheating. And that feed lead was AZ desert dry!.

Heat using the hotplate and you will be safe and good to go.

banger

I put the lead under the pot to preheat it some but must admit, I didn't leave it there long. I usually use 1# or less ingots and haven't had a problem but this chunk was like 2-3#. Live and learn. I'm just glad I had enough warning to step back before it happened.

rbuck351
11-27-2015, 06:38 PM
Your talking diving weight, like one that has been deep enough in water to pressure force water into very tiny voids in the lead. Lead does not boil anywhere near casting temps. I don't recall the expansion ratio of water to steam but it's a bunch. I have dumped below freezing (32 degrees) lead into melted lead without so much as a bubble. ANY moisture on or in voids in the lead will get you a visit from the tinsel fairy. Diving weights are really asking for it if not pre heated. Really glad you weren't hurt. I have a bunch of diving weights that will be boolits someday. Thanks for the reminder to be extra careful with these. Sometimes I get in to big a hurry and the diving weight thing would be easy to overlook.

skeettx
11-27-2015, 06:56 PM
I use two pots, both full to start. empty one(not totally so you have a heat sink), and turn it off, wait a bit and then fill it with ingots, now turn it back on.
While it is heating work on the other pot, and when it is empty the first one will be ready to use.
Continue procedure.

ShooterAZ
11-27-2015, 06:58 PM
I will NOT melt diving weights ever again for this very same reason. Water gets trapped in voids or something. I had some blow the lid off of a cast iron dutch oven once. Thankfully I was nowhere near it when it happened. It made a heck of a mess, but it would have been a lot worse if I didn't have the lid on it. Not only that...but I have encountered some diving weights that were zinc contaminated. No more dive weights for me!

mooman76
11-27-2015, 07:52 PM
Your talking diving weight, like one that has been deep enough in water to pressure force water into very tiny voids in the lead. Lead does not boil anywhere near casting temps. I don't recall the expansion ratio of water to steam but it's a bunch. I have dumped below freezing (32 degrees) lead into melted lead without so much as a bubble. ANY moisture on or in voids in the lead will get you a visit from the tinsel fairy. Diving weights are really asking for it if not pre heated. Really glad you weren't hurt. I have a bunch of diving weights that will be boolits someday. Thanks for the reminder to be extra careful with these. Sometimes I get in to big a hurry and the diving weight thing would be easy to overlook.

I know it wasn't boiling, I was just describing what it looked like. If I have questionable lead I will sit it on the pot before turning it on that way it heats up slower and has time to burn off anything like moisture. I did not know this about diving weights or I would have either not bothered with it or heated it slowly. I have plenty of ingots but thought I would just use it up.

Down South
11-27-2015, 10:17 PM
I really hate it when that happens. Seems to have happened to most of us at one time or another.
Best route to take is to melt all of your lead starting in a cold pot and pour into ingots. Preheat the ingots before dropping them into the casting pot. I don't have any problems doing that.

runfiverun
11-27-2015, 10:21 PM
I do like skeetx and use 2 pots.
one is warming and I'm pouring from the other once the first gets low I ladle the last few pounds of gunk into the other pot and start over again.
yes it is slower.
yes I got the scars to splain why.
I don't ever want a plop of lead to land on top of my head again, I need all the hair I got.

Down South
11-27-2015, 10:33 PM
I will NOT melt diving weights ever again for this very same reason. Water gets trapped in voids or something. I had some blow the lid off of a cast iron dutch oven once. Thankfully I was nowhere near it when it happened. It made a heck of a mess, but it would have been a lot worse if I didn't have the lid on it. Not only that...but I have encountered some diving weights that were zinc contaminated. No more dive weights for me!I don't know Jack about diving weights but I do know if I pile all of the scrap lead, diving weights or whatever into a cold pot then turn the heat on, I don't have any problems with a tinsel fairy. Well, not so far.
If the alloy is allowed to heat up from cold to melting temp the moisture escapes before the alloy is at high enough temp to cause a problem even though the moisture might be embedded.
Clean the alloy from starting with a cold pot, pour into ingots, keep em dry, preheat the ingots before dropping into the casting pot and happy casting.

Beagle333
11-27-2015, 10:45 PM
Cold ingots will bubble and sputter like crazy. Of course moisture and air pockets are much worse, but a LOT of my muffin and RCBS ingots will bubble enough to be spooky if they aren't warmed really good before sliding them in.

Mk42gunner
11-27-2015, 11:08 PM
Putting cold dry lead into a pot of melted lead will not cause the already hot lead to boil. That's like saying if you add ice to a 150 degree pot of water it will start to boil, just doesn't make sense.

If there is any moisture at all on or in the cold lead, you get the burbling of the tinsel fairy knocking on your door. I have heard the evil fairy start knocking a time or two with ingots that were stored inside, luckily I still had hold of them with the pliers and was able to pull the ingot out of the melt before she very bad things happened.

Too help prevent giving her an invite, I use a slightly modified BruceB ingot and heating style. My ingots are made from angle iron, anything from 1¼" to 2", from 8 to 10½" long; depending on what I have available when I made the molds. I preheat by laying them across the top of the meting pot, wither a Lee 4-20 or an RCBS Promelt.

As long as I leave them there long enough to thoroughly heat; and don't try to add one until there is room for it in the pot (don't ask),I have no problems.

Robert

Beagle333
11-27-2015, 11:19 PM
Maybe it's just the air in the ingot expanding and coming out..... it's not like a steam explosion, but a cold one will bubble when introduced quickly into a 700°+ pot, sometimes violently, until it melts. I saw it again just today.... several times.
I'm sure it didn't reach the boiling point of lead, that isn't what I am describing.

bangerjim
11-27-2015, 11:42 PM
The lead is NOT actually BOILING!!!!!!!! That is figuratively speaking. Why do so many on here take everything so literally? Sheeh. It is a thermal differential causing the molten lead to "move" around rapidly, causing a sometimes violent "boiling-like" effect. It does happen. Hear me now and believe me later.

Lead would have to be above 3,182F to actually vaporize and really come to an actual boil.

To avoid the potentially dangerous situation, pre-heat your feed ingots. Problem solved.

bangerjim

triggerhappy243
11-28-2015, 12:18 AM
Once again, an excellent thread. and it has given me an idea to dry out potential moisture. I smelt and cast with a cast iron dutch oven. my idea is to lay a piece of expanded metal on top of the pot while smelting the first batch, lay out a pile of my wheel weights and other lead items on top of the expanded metal... pre heating them to dry out any hidden moisture. repeat with several piles for the next melt. why waste the heat?

skeettx
11-28-2015, 12:51 AM
AND several pieces of expanded metal to make the change out easy and safe

Tatume
11-28-2015, 08:27 AM
My ingots are stacked indoors on a concrete floor. The stack has been there several years. Concrete holds moisture. Yesterday I picked up some ingots from the top of the stack, about a foot above the floor. One of them had a black widow spider on the bottom. As you may know, black widows only live in very high humidity. This tells me that those ingots, a foot from the floor, are moist. And yes, if I add one to a pot of molten metal, they do bubble and boil. This is caused by moisture, not temperature difference.

I threw down the ingot immediately and didn't get bitten.

farmerjim
11-28-2015, 08:53 AM
Black widows are not aggressive. Just don't catch them between your hand and the item you are picking up, or stick your foot in a boot where one is hiding.
I preheat all my ingots to just before slush in a small pot on the hotplate.

w5pv
11-28-2015, 09:29 AM
I had a near mishap with a spider and web in a saeco mold.He had built a web/nest in the coner of the mold and when the hot lead hit hit the nest and spider it sprayed a little but none got on me.Now I preheat the molds to dry them out and kil any bugs in there hiding.

MrWolf
11-28-2015, 02:12 PM
Because of the warnings that have been posted on this site, I have always worn full clothing, full face shield, lead rated respirator, safety sun glasses ( molten lead is really shiny to me), and welding gloves. Bit much? Maybe, but I prefer safe to sorry and being uncomfortable for a bit.

bangerjim
11-28-2015, 03:23 PM
Because of the warnings that have been posted on this site, I have always worn full clothing, full face shield, lead rated respirator, safety sun glasses ( molten lead is really shiny to me), and welding gloves. Bit much? Maybe, but I prefer safe to sorry and being uncomfortable for a bit.

And you will be able to withstand a DIRECT nuclear blast with all that stuff on!

I wear safety glasses. Long or short sleeves depending on the outside weather. Leather gloves ONLY when picking up hot stuff. A leather apron when it is 100F+ in the summer and I have shorts on.

And I always have at least 5 layers of good old common sense on, too!

bangerjim

Pinsnscrews
11-28-2015, 05:30 PM
One of them had a black widow spider on the bottom. As you may know, black widows only live in very high humidity.

I as unaware that Phoenix AZ, with it's average yearly humidty of 6% is considered "High Humidity". I rather like the black widows that live around my house, which does not contain a pool or hottub in the backyard. When the blackwidows go missing, I break out the scorpion light and go hunting...

Tatume
11-28-2015, 06:55 PM
At one time I collected black widows by the dozens to trade for exotic animals from other parts of the world. Where I live we have pump houses that are usually partially below ground to prevent wintertime freezing. They are always dark and moist, and usually a few to a dozen or more black widows can be found in each. Needless to say, I like them too. However, I also respect them, as a bite will lead to days of misery. It is not an experience I wish to endure.

Tatume
11-28-2015, 07:01 PM
I as unaware that Phoenix AZ, with it's average yearly humidty of 6% is considered "High Humidity". I rather like the black widows that live around my house, which does not contain a pool or hottub in the backyard. When the blackwidows go missing, I break out the scorpion light and go hunting...

I expect that when you find black widow spiders they are close to the ground and underneath some object. In that microcosm the humidity can be quite high, despite the overall low humidity of the surrounding environment. Overall my shop is very dry too, but the humidity in the stack of ingots next to the concrete floor is high. A few inches away it is not.

bangerjim
11-28-2015, 07:28 PM
I find widows in my wood piles, under the car when it does not move for a few days, in corners of the shops, just about everywhere! All are VERY dry here is the desert.

Keep in mind there are THREE different kinds of widows in NA. Do a search and you will see where the different types are found. Search engines are your"leeeeeeetle friend!".

Tatume
11-28-2015, 07:50 PM
You're right, common names are terribly imprecise (with the exception of birds). Latrodectus mactans is the animal with which I am familiar.

A woodpile that is dry in the interior astonishes me. Here in the east firewood rots, and generates its own humid environment.

bangerjim
11-28-2015, 08:52 PM
You're right, common names are terribly imprecise (with the exception of birds). Latrodectus mactans is the animal with which I am familiar.

A woodpile that is dry in the interior astonishes me. Here in the east firewood rots, and generates its own humid environment.

You have never experienced "dry" until you live in the desert SW! I can leave bright shiny unoiled steel out for months at a time and it will not rust at all. I have no rust on any of my tons of tools. Only if something is left out in the VERY rare rain will it rust.

Our dew points can get into the negative numbers a lot of the year. That is why we call it a desert! And widows abound here!!!!!! Between the widows and scorpions, I keep busy in the evening going around spraying them with wasp killer.

banger

David2011
11-30-2015, 04:57 PM
As you may know, black widows only live in very high humidity.

I grew up in the high humidity of the Texas Gulf Coast and never saw a Black Widow. In both Bakersfield, CA and SE New Mexico, virtually identical climates, I've seen plenty. I've seen them in the open air exposed to direct sunlight with their webs made on a black steel fence gate during a year long drought.

They're just fine in extremely dry areas.

David

Down South
11-30-2015, 10:06 PM
Black Widows invaded my shop once. They were everywhere. Spiders and snakes don't scare me unless one catches me by surprise, like a Black Widow in one of my casting gloves or stepping withing striking distance of a rattle snake, copper head or cotton mouth.
I started flopping my casting gloves on something hard just in case a spider had made a home in one of the fingers. The snakes, I just have to pay more attention to where I step.

I'm heading into rattle snake country in a couple weeks on a deer hunt. My hunting buddy asked about my snake boots. I told him that I've never owned a pair and would be wearing tennis shoes or a pair of regular hunting boots.
I'll get flamed over that last sentence.
I've been hunting in snake country long before I ever heard the notion of snake boots.

RogerDat
11-30-2015, 10:36 PM
They say outside of Antarctica you are never more than 6 ft. from a spider. Inside your house or outside. Spiders are very adaptive and tough critters.

Protective gear I go with face shield and no exposed skin or synthetic fibers. Lead spatter on blue jeans sticks but doesn't burn, on polyester it would melt right to the skin. Leather welding gloves that reach the elbow allow wearing short sleeve shirt. I wear work boots most of the time anyway but not going to wear open shoes or tennis shoes without socks. I know which way lead heads when it falls. Once had some splash onto a hose from a shop vac, fused right to it. Hose on the same floor my feet use.

The one thing I have to remind myself of often is to flip the shield down. Only thing stupider than getting hurt with protective gear sitting on the shelf is to have it right on your head. I also wear a welders cap, both to keep my hair back and to prevent splatter burns. You know even absent the fairy one can drop an ingot or other item into a pot of molten lead and have it splash. Or drop a ladle or.... The tinsel fairy is dramatic but the small accidents you don't watch for are the ones that always seem to get me.

hickfu
12-01-2015, 12:28 AM
My encounter with lead happened when I was stupid and bumped the full pot enough to really rock it around.. I had just taken off the welding glove on my right hand to do something and that is exactly where the lead hit when it came sloshing out of the pot. The scars will be there forever but hell, Im 50 so its not like it will be that long...

mac266
12-01-2015, 05:50 AM
Wow, scary stuff. I've never had that particular problem, but I always wear the right PPE anyway. Long pants, long sleeves, work boots, a baseball cap, welder's gloves, and protective glasses used to do it for me. Recently I added a full face shield (similar to a welder's shield but clear instead of smoked).

mdi
12-01-2015, 01:58 PM
The lead is NOT actually BOILING!!!!!!!! That is figuratively speaking. Why do so many on here take everything so literally? Sheeh. It is a thermal differential causing the molten lead to "move" around rapidly, causing a sometimes violent "boiling-like" effect. It does happen. Hear me now and believe me later.

Lead would have to be above 3,182F to actually vaporize and really come to an actual boil.

To avoid the potentially dangerous situation, pre-heat your feed ingots. Problem solved.

bangerjim
One reason for quick unreasonable comments is because too many casters or would be casters read and believe some plain old baloney on many forums. Most of the posters here are correct but if you read long enough, you'll spot some "chicken little" wive's tale responses.

I've been melting lead and making stuff like bullets and sinkers since I was 15 working on Ma's stove. For me, and I can only speak for me, there has never been a "boiling" (or is it aerating?) from cold, but dry lead being added to the pot. The only eruption I've had/seen is if water on some lead being added to a pot, is forced under the surface of the lead...

bangerjim
12-01-2015, 06:16 PM
154636

The T. faerey???????????

bangerjim
12-01-2015, 06:26 PM
One reason for quick unreasonable comments is because too many casters or would be casters read and believe some plain old baloney on many forums. Most of the posters here are correct but if you read long enough, you'll spot some "chicken little" wive's tale responses.

I've been melting lead and making stuff like bullets and sinkers since I was 15 working on Ma's stove. For me, and I can only speak for me, there has never been a "boiling" (or is it aerating?) from cold, but dry lead being added to the pot. The only eruption I've had/seen is if water on some lead being added to a pot, is forced under the surface of the lead...

The thermal differential "difference" does not happen all the time. I have even seen it when stuffing wire solder in the pot..........just a little boiling/rolling action. Much more so with SOME VERY DRY and COLD ingots. You may have not observed it...............bit I sure have.......and it was NOT from entrained moisture either. And was not caused by "chicken little" droppings in there either!

No, it does not happen all the time (thank God), but one should be aware and ALWAYS be at the ready when adding feed ingots to a pot of 750F+ lead! It is nice to read some of the experiences others have had to help you avoid similar situations.

banger

Hickory
12-01-2015, 08:24 PM
I used to make my living in an iron foundry.
Once while working in the melting area the forktruck driver drove by me with a pig mould,* that gave off a lot of cold. He seated it under a M.I.P. (mechanical iron pourer) to receive overflow iron. The iron pourer dumped several hundred pound of molten iron in the ice cold mould that just came in from the winter cold, and it exploded like 3-4lb of c4, the pig mould came off the floor about foot. Before the operator could stop the flow of iron the exact same thing happened 5or6 times in the time frame of less than 10 seconds. It shot molten iron in every direction except down for a good 80 feet.
* Pig moulds we used were made of iron coated with a material called burlite to keep the molten iron from sticking the approximate weight empty was 2500 lbs. That would hold about 2000 lbs of iron.

flyingrhino
12-07-2015, 01:33 PM
I put my ingots in my convection oven on 450 when I'm casting. This seems to work pretty well.

bangerjim
12-07-2015, 02:34 PM
Just for Shuts & Gargles, Sunday I was casting early in the morning and my ingots stored outside (in a protected area - NO moisture here in the desert!!!!) were at 41F.

I took 2 of them and heated on my hotplate as normal, added them to the pot and no problem.

Then I took 2 of the COLD ingots and added them..........AND there was a definite boiling and churning action in the pot like I described above - evidently due to the severe temp differential. There was no moisture involved at all. The bubbling was not severe, but does catch your attention!!!!!!

Suffice it to say, I am not going into any thermodynamic engineering analysis of this temperature differential syndrome.....I just heat all my ingots! You should too!

banger

Tatume
12-07-2015, 03:28 PM
Where there is no moisture there is no life.

bangerjim
12-07-2015, 04:43 PM
Where there is no moisture there is no life.

You never lived in the desert! Moisture is only in the ground, not hanging around like you have in VA.

oldskeetshooter
12-07-2015, 05:01 PM
I learned that lesson back in 1970 when I was plumbing. Cast iron pipe, oakum, lead and tar were necessary for making joints. 100lbs of hot lead, an 8" pipe joint, 10 lb lead ladle and a smidge of moisture and the lead will make like Elvis and "leave the building". Plumbers got used to the lead as it did not burn much. On the other hand, hot tar went to the bone.

olafhardt
12-07-2015, 10:57 PM
Lead, like almost every thing except water has a higher density when it is solid. Cooler lead sinks in liquid and gets colder as it contacts the sunken, solid ingot. This cooler lead spreads along the bottom of the pot until it heats up. Then it rises to the surface where it is cooled by contact with air. This process is referred to as "convection" and is driven by temperature differences. It may be quite noticeable or hardly apparent.

rbuck351
12-08-2015, 02:21 AM
Places on earth with 0% moisture in the air are very rare. Even 1% moisture in the air is enough to cause a very light, not even visible, layer of moisture, dew, to form on things as temperature changes. Metals tend to hold the coolness quite a while as temperature rises, night to day, which causes condensation on the cooler metal. Not enough to see in all cases, but ANY moisture will boil to the extent of it's volume causing the bit of bubbling when putting cold ingots into melted lead. This condition doesn't always exist so you don't always get the bit of bubbling when adding cold lead. Even so, adding cold lead to a hot melt will probably get you a visit sooner or later. One should always preheat and wear some form of protective wear.

Tatume
12-08-2015, 08:30 AM
Phoenix, AZ Weather Observation 12/8/15 as of 5:05 am MST Humidity 44%

bangerjim
12-08-2015, 11:37 AM
Phoenix, AZ Weather Observation 12/8/15 as of 5:05 am MST Humidity 44%

And your point is? Around these parts, we go by DEW POINT, and not relative humidity. Our DP's normally are in the 10's or 20's. I have seen them at -10 in the winter. That means the temp must be at that point for moisture to come out of the air. Pretty difficult when the actual temp is 50 or so degrees F.

Pb is not hygroscopic like wood. Unless someone has Pb stored ON THE GROUND, there will be no moisture INSIDE it. Mabe on the surface....if you bring cold Pb inside a 70F building and get condensate B4 dumping it in a hot pot. (Not a good idea) No voids full of water.....unless they do not know how to make good ingots!

I guess you are not gonna give up on this moisture thing. Yes there is humidity. No, it is nothing like you folks on the east and south coasts have every day all day.

We call it a desert.

And I sure do not cast at 5AM!!!!!

Bottom line is.......PREHEAT ALL YOUR INGOTS....no matter your location. Or RH. Or DP. Or temp. And be safe.

rbuck351
12-08-2015, 09:46 PM
There are three points here 1. PRE HEAT your ingots and 2. the bubbling is caused by a solid or a liquid turning to a gas and expanding a lot very rapidly which LEAD DOES NOT DO anywhere near casting temps. 3. The reason for #1 is to prevent #2

mozeppa
12-08-2015, 11:30 PM
we have "brown recluse" spiders....needless to say, you can lose limbs over that bite!

love to hide in closets , shoes...etc.

Tatume
12-09-2015, 07:10 AM
My sister was bitten by a brown recluse. She was in great pain for a very long time.

MN91311
12-14-2015, 10:24 PM
I have an anthracite coal stoker for central heat & domestic hot water here in Pa. I leave the insulated top off, so the top of the boiler, at 160-190 degrees, is exposed. I can put a large lead ingot, or whatever, on top and it will dry thru and thru.
I use it to dry off lots of things; if I need gentle heat, I put an empty large coffee can on the boiler, and the item on that.
The boiler is hot 365 days a year. The waste heat off the boiler warms my entire basement thru the sometimes brutal winters here.