I can't believe how good the "Inexpensive Rifles" are nowadays !

[W.R.Buchanan]

So the other day I was wandering around my local Big 5 Sporting Goods Store while waiting for my VW to get serviced.

I walked by the gun rack which is pretty well stocked for a California Store and I noticed this one rifle.

It had a flat black barrel and action and an OD Green Stock. It was a Ruger American Rifle in .308 cal and it was $349.95! It was the Predator Model.

Didn't need it as I already have a Scout in .308, but I liked the look of the gun so much it was genuinely tempting. I handled it and it was smooth operating and the fit and finish was superb. It has one of those Savage Type Triggers, a removable Magazine and a Threaded Muzzle on a 18" barrel.

Right next to it was 3-4 Mini 14's all priced at $795-850! There was several other nice looking rifles all of which were priced higher,,,, for less. IMHO.

What blew me away, is how much gun you can get for $350. I have several Very Used Guns that I paid way more for!

It needed an Optic of some type mounted to the Pic Rail mounts and you were ready to go.

I have no doubt it would be a good shooter and a great hunting rifle.

Lots of gun for the money! But the reality here is that the Distributor Price for this gun IE; what Ruger sells it for to an outfit like Lipsey's or Davidsons has to be in the $200-250 range! That means that Ruger is producing this gun for under $150!

WOW!

Randy

[Willyp]

How true. Savage,Ruger,Mossberg and Remington seem to have a model that are easy to buy. The thing is they all shoot better than you would ever expect. I bought a Savage Axis,in 30-06,just to shoot cast from. It amazed me from the start!
They are not shinny nor fancy but looks don't kill,other than your wallet!

[sparky45]

From what I gather, I would stay away from the Remy brand, but I really like the looks/action of the others. I even have 4 of the H&R single shot models as well.

[shredder]

I noticed that too. Seems like the "super accurate" rifles that were around in the old days are no longer scarce but available brand new over the counter, entirely affordable and pretty darn nice to boot. I have been down the road of accurizing factory rifles and converting military rifles. It sure gives me a pause when I see the price tag on some of these package outfits. The real kicker is that so many of them will shoot the magic inch groups right out of the box. I have shot a Remington 770 that did this and quite a few Savage bargain rifles that did it too.
Given the time and effort I have put in trying to get rifles to shoot like that over the years, it seems I could have saved a pile of money and uncounted hours just by getting a cheap rifle.

Computer controlled machining is our friend!!

[youngda9]

These rifles do seem to shoot the magic inch from what I've heard. And if you think about it...that means that you don't miss the point that you are aiming at by more than 0.5"...which is good enough for ground squirrels out past 200yds. Not too shabby.

[Uncle Grinch]

I agree, the new "consumer market" rifles are a great deal and most are very accurate, especially for the money. They will fit the bill for many wanting a decent rifle for less money.

That being said, they are not my type of rifle. I suppose I'm too old or maybe too conservative. I tend to lean towards steel and wood and most of the time control feed models, i.e., Mauser variants. Two of my favorites are an older Husqvarna FN Mauser in 6.5x55 and my more recent purchase, a JC Higgins Model 50, FN Mauser in 30-06, which by the way, was purchased for the same cost of the Ruger Anerican,,,, $350.

It's your choice, that's why we have so many to choose from.

[Bigslug]

. . .Given the time and effort I have put in trying to get rifles to shoot like that over the years, it seems I could have saved a pile of money and uncounted hours just by getting a cheap rifle.

Computer controlled machining is our friend!!

To a degree, yes it is. Square shoulders, square breech faces, tight threads, and the simple fitting of A to B are the necessary elements to accuracy, and these are things that robots do exceptionally well. They also do it cheaply, which is all to the good.

The problem is that so much emphasis has been placed on using this CNC equipment to make a cheaper rifle that very little effort has gone into figuring out how to make a NICE rifle more cheaply. If it can give us an utterly bare bones assemblage of pins, plungers and coil springs that merely sends lead downrange consistently for $350, then surely it can give us a TOTALLY BULLETPROOF Pre-'64 M70, M98, or M1917 sporter with controlled feed and steel bottom metal that shoots as well for $500.

They made those guns to outfit armies of MILLIONS back in the day - don't tell me they cost too much to make, and don't tell me we can't make them even better for less now.

[liliysdad]

To a degree, yes it is. Square shoulders, square breech faces, tight threads, and the simple fitting of A to B are the necessary elements to accuracy, and these are things that robots do exceptionally well. They also do it cheaply, which is all to the good.

The problem is that so much emphasis has been placed on using this CNC equipment to make a cheaper rifle that very little effort has gone into figuring out how to make a NICE rifle more cheaply. If it can give us an utterly bare bones assemblage of pins, plungers and coil springs that merely sends lead downrange consistently for $350, then surely it can give us a TOTALLY BULLETPROOF Pre-'64 M70, M98, or M1917 sporter with controlled feed and steel bottom metal that shoots as well for $500.

They made those guns to outfit armies of MILLIONS back in the day - don't tell me they cost too much to make, and don't tell me we can't make them even better for less now.

Sure they can.....and you and about seventeen other folks on the planet would buy them.

[runfiverun]

actually they are about 600 bucks.
look at the Ruger Hawkeye rifle.
it's controlled feed, has a a nice trigger, and shoots very well.

it might not be wood and blued but that's a fact of modern.
nice wood is expensive and hard to find [you could get a beech stock] polishing for nice bluing takes a skilled craftsman's touch with several steps needed. [time, this slows down production and drives up costs]

[dragon813gt]

Are new Hawkeyes down to $600? I paid around $900 for one a few years back. It was below MSRP but only by a little.

My experience w/ bargain rifles has been positive. I'm surprised no one has posted yet how they are all junk and they won't shoot MOA. That's usually what happens when they are discussed.

[Bigslug]

Sure they can.....and you and about seventeen other folks on the planet would buy them.

Only seventeen? Is the Walmartian percentage of the NRA that high these days? Do we worry so little about HOW our rifle works? Do we want the grandkids to remember us by the Hyundai Excel we handed down to them? Are the people selling the guns SO BAD at pointing out the technical merits of the designs that were capable of surviving combat?

Apparently, the answer is "yes". And don't mistake me - I'm glad the market has such rifles. My gripe is that the rifle I would buy for a loaner/beater seems to be turning into the king of the market's share. Even the 700, which was brought to us as just such a cheap rifle with its cast aluminum floorplate and stamped trigger is now regarded as the "sexy" option.

My point is, the old guns went away because they were costly to produce with WHAT WAS AVAILABLE AT THE TIME. With the technology where it is today, we should be making the bygone classic rifle equivalents of the 7-series BMW at the comparative price point of a V6 Toyota Camry. Instead, the industry is fixated on making 4-banger Corollas, and the segment of the market that WOULD spend the little bit extra for the new version of the old BMW is spending their money on 60+ year old relics at the used rack.

Is the middle class dying out in the gun market too? Or is the industry just waiting on guys who know the difference to die?

[runfiverun]

I bought my hawkeye in 358 win when they first come out and paid 615.00 then, I seen one in 257 Roberts right afterwards and should have jumped on it [put it in layaway at least] I regretted not doing that.
I did however find a super nice red butt pad Winchester model 70 featherweight in 257 that helped me get over missing out on the ruger.

a buddy at work recently asked my opinion about a rifle for his boy and I suggested the Hawkeye in 7-08 [same as I recommend to anybody looking for a rifle] he looked up the price and found them to be 647.00 on the interweb sites.

[runfiverun]

Bigslug I fully understand what your saying.
if they can cut costs on the bargain rifles and retail them for 300 bucks.
why can't they upgrade the stocks, magazines, and the bottom metal and then sell them for $500.00?
just switching from MIM to CNC would upgrade the interior parts considerably but only up the cost another $50.00

I guess time will tell if these rifles are gonna last or if they are just use and toss tools like pretty much everything else produced today.

[liliysdad]

Is the middle class dying out in the gun market too? Or is the industry just waiting on guys who know the difference to die?

Maybe...or perhaps there is such a glut of older, classic rifles on the secondary market that buying a new one makes little sense. With Gunbroker and internet forums, I can find just about any rifle, in any configuration and have it in my hands in very little time.

Another reason for many, including myself, is that I can have the rifle I want built at a somewhat reasonable cost and not have to settle for what some marketing guy thinks I need.

[DerekP Houston]

I got one of the low price marlin 30-06 with accutrigger. Shoots great, not fancy by any means though. I got it as a hunting gun so I could drop it in mud/water without ruining a nicer model. I assume most people in my price ranger do similar. It shoots ~2" groups for me @ 100yrds with 48gr 4064 and 168gr bthp.

[rintinglen]

I bought a .308 Ruger American because I needed a gun to hunt with here in California that used "Un-leaded," Something my 250 savage and .348 can't do.

Although the first one I got was not chambered correctly and was the source of considerable ire-provoking correspondence, this second one is amazing for the money. I get 3 shot 1 1/8 inch groups with it, using Barnes 150 grain solid copper bullets, using the first load I tried. I put a 175 dollar Weaver 2 x 7 on it and for 525 dollars I am set. I have seen a great many much more expensive guns that won't do as well.
And if I fall down a mountain, I don't care If I drop the gun.

[shredder]

To a degree, yes it is. Square shoulders, square breech faces, tight threads, and the simple fitting of A to B are the necessary elements to accuracy, and these are things that robots do exceptionally well. They also do it cheaply, which is all to the good.

The problem is that so much emphasis has been placed on using this CNC equipment to make a cheaper rifle that very little effort has gone into figuring out how to make a NICE rifle more cheaply. If it can give us an utterly bare bones assemblage of pins, plungers and coil springs that merely sends lead downrange consistently for $350, then surely it can give us a TOTALLY BULLETPROOF Pre-'64 M70, M98, or M1917 sporter with controlled feed and steel bottom metal that shoots as well for $500.

They made those guns to outfit armies of MILLIONS back in the day - don't tell me they cost too much to make, and don't tell me we can't make them even better for less now.

I hear you. It sure would be nice to see some of the old designs that were so labor intensive come back. Besides the Masuer 98 control feed, M70 etc.

[runfiverun]

the newer model 70's are control feed.
Win. pretty much fell off my radar their last go round but they are starting to gain more of my attention a little bit here and there.

[Houndog]

I bought a left hand Savage Axis in 243 for the Grandson and cut it down to old model 7 youth size for his first deer rifle. (18 inch barrel and 1 1/2 inch shorter stock) Shortening the stock turned out to be a PITA but tuning the trigger and the rest was easy. This thing shoots! The very first 5 shot group measured 5/8 inch at 100 yards! It impressed me enough that I bought a second one in 7-08 and cut it down the same way, excluding the stock shortening. After topping it with a Leupold 2X7 scope I wound up with an excellent 7 1/4 pound rifle for woods hunting.

[wonderwolf]

CZ-550 (602) and the Ruger 77 are great commercial rifles at least in my eyes they will never be the cheapest since there will always be companies out there willing to make something of lesser quality to undercut a rifle that has more features and possibly a better margin of strength and durability.

Cheap rifles have their place, I try not to judge before I can at least get my hands on one and take a look at how its put together and the QC of the example. Some decent ones are out there for sure these days, ruger and savage both make quality designs that translates well to economy models. Rugers new precision rifle employs the same bolt head design as their American rifle.

The AXIS comes to mind, a group of us went together and got a dealer deal on 5 for what at the time was a very good price. Since then I believe they are even cheaper now. Though its great it is American made! Could it be better? Yes of course. Does it do what its designed to do? put meat on the table for those capable enough? Duh. We got ours for $220 after mail in rebate and that included transfer and shipping etc.

There does exist a rare person in the firearms community that enjoys hunting a little more than spending tons of money on guns and having a battery of few guns that are bare bones and fit their frugal budget....I only wish I could have that much self control.

I would like to find another axis for that price in .223 and put a heavier .223 wylde barrel on as well as have a .300 blackout barrel handy for. The fact for $200 I can get everything needed to make my .30/06 axis into a .35 whelen is very appealing as well....the couple of lines above should show why I can't keep my battery simple, I would like to modify my axis into a scout rifle configuration and get a take off '06 barrel to shorten and see how I like that (take offs are cheap) as well.

A Mossberg MVP .223 could be fun as well but I don't like all the embellishments they seem to come with.

Lots of great rifles out there, if I had to start from zero I would not hesitate to go with any of the couple popular half dozen economy bolt action rifles out there now. Save my money for a scope upgrade possibly. The car doesn't make the driver anyways.

[JimP.]

my most accurate hunting rifle is a Remington Model 710 chambered in 300 Win mag. This rifle shoots 3 shots inside of 1/2 all the time at 100 yds. Very accurate, son kills deer with it. Doesnt want to borrow anything else.

[liliysdad]

A 710? Damn...thats a whole 'nother lever of cheap right there.

[Jpholla]

I hear you. It sure would be nice to see some of the old designs that were so labor intensive come back. Besides the Masuer 98 control feed, M70 etc.

I would love to see some really nice single-shots (NOT break actions!) at lower prices, but the fact of the matter is it probably won't happen. The laws of supply and demand will continue to trump machining technology for the foreseeable future. You would not believe how many phone calls a store gets asking (often in the strongest local accent) "What's the cheapest 'deer rifle' you guys have in stock?" All the masses care about is price. Not quality. Not something to pass down in the family. They want something as cheap as possible (and already sighted in, no less) so they can go hunting when modern-gun season opens the next day. A lot of these people buy a gun every year and then hock it after they get their deer. The gun industry knows this, and plans accordingly. There simply isn't a large enough customer base for superfluous quality to bring the price down. Looking at these new "bargain-bolts," they look to me to be designed to be easier for CNC machines to automatically turn out. If a CNC machine can crank out a bargain receiver every 3 minutes or a classic receiver every seven minutes, which can make them more money considering the available market?

On the other hand, consider that a Ruger #1 (one of the classiest rifles made in America) costs less today than when it was introduced--considering inflation. I'm sure there are many others. But on the other hand a Savage 99 made with modern machinery would cost well over $1000, according to Savage :cry:. Sometimes we just have to count our blessings about what we have available and just hope for even better in the future. And buy old, used guns when we see them at bargain prices.

[lightload]

In the old days of desirable yet affordable firearms, labor costs were modest. As they increased over the years, so did tool costs. This fact made Winchester take a sacred line of rifles and shotguns and develop the cursed post 64 products that did not sell. Today, the talent to do any hand fitting is gone. Anyway, labor costs prohibit it.

After WW2, the very strong dollar allowed Americans to buy a host of fine European firearms at bargain prices. I've seen Sako and other similar European rifles in discount stores next to Rem 700s for the same or lower price. Ditto for Beretta double shotguns. A plain Browning Auto-5 sold for the same price as a Rem 1100.

Tastes change. Many don't know the difference between quality and the lack of, and some don't care.

[dk17hmr]

I actually bought a Ruger American 30-06 brand new for $197 at Walmart. Haven't shot it yet so can't really comment on them from the bench. If it shoots better then my Kimber 8400 I might be a little mad.

On a side note an American in 300 blackout to shoot supressed would be a lot of fun. If I could find one for the price of my 30-06 I would buy one.....the brake for my suppressor would cost over 1/2 what the rifle did but it would be worth it.

[W.R.Buchanan]

To be clear CNC machining is not the end all for gun making. Some designs lend themselves well to manufacturing buy these new methods. Most older designs generally don't.

A Mauser Receiver has two big giant slots cut lengthwise called Bolt Races. These must be done on a specialized Broaching Machine as a separate operation. There really isn't another way to do it.

Ruger got around this operation by "Investment Casting" the receiver with the bolt races in tact, thus eliminating this operation and the machine. Thus Ruger M77 style rifles cost 10-15 times less than new Mausers

There are four ways to make a square hole in a part. 1. Broach it. 2. use an EDM machine to burn it, and 3. make the part two pieces and machine both sides with half the hole in place. 4. Or the way they did it originally,,, Drill a hole and use a file to make it square.

Lately I have seen AR lowers made by the first three methods. The most common is the casting with a broached Mag Well. Wire EDM is too slow and costly, but produces a perfect hole. And lately I have seen several two piece receivers where the Magwell was cut in each side using an Endmill, then bolted together. Haven't heard of anyone filing one but I'm sure some fool has tried it.

Virtually all of the Ruger American Rifle's Receiver and Bolt were designed to be done on a CNC Turning Center that has milling capabilities . That way the part can be completed in one pass thru the machine. Thus eliminating "Handling" and subsequent second operations which are the most inefficient parts of the entire process. Less time =less $.

The point here,,, it is the combination of Design and Manufacturing that yields a superior and less expensive product. This is not only true for guns, but virtually everything we buy nowadays.

#1 Fact in the machine shop. The less Human Hands contact a product,,, the better that product will be.

I have know this since about the third day I was a machinist!

Randy

[Artful]

So Randy if one wanted to take an older Design like the Savage 99 and update it so that modern CNC machines would be able to make it efficiently, what would have to be changed?

[W.R.Buchanan]

I would have to see the gun apart. I would doubt the overall design lends itself very well to automated production or else Savage would have already done it. They did update the design back 20 years ago, and got rid of the Rotary Magazine which was labor intensive, but it only lasted a few more years before they stopped producing it.

I'm sure that the design could be made other ways. If Ruger got ahold of it, the receiver and bolt could be Investment Cast and many of the internal parts could be made using MIM (Metal Injection Molding) That could bring the price down, but the gun itself was never "that" popular so I doubt it could compete with newer designs.

But if you look at the difference in price between a Ruger M77 and the American Rifle you can see that there is a big difference. The M77 has an Investment Cast Receiver and Bolt with a nicer wood stock and is around $1100 The American is $350 because of the simpler design, less expensive materials and machining.

Pretty big difference in price between the two.

What you have to understand is that these new rifle actions are being designed around a piece of Round Bar Stock with a hole in it, and some cutouts for the Trigger and Mag Well. You could probably make one with a Manual Engine Lathe and Bridgeport Mill. The bolts are made from a piece of bar stock as well and the bolt lugs are simply milled into the end. They are very simple and the design was done with respect to how they were going to make it happen on a CNC Machining Center.

Previous Designs were drawn up by the designers and then the machinists figured out how to make them. This is what I used to do for a living. Engineers with no shop experience design things and then expect machinists to make them, and in some cases what they designed was not possible to make with the tools we have. IE: You can't get there from here!

Now with 3D printers you can concoct just about anything because the printer can do all the internal work that you wouldn't be able to get to with a machine tool.

It is only a matter of time before the Star Trek "Replicator" is developed to perfection. The current 3D Printers are only the 2nd generation of that machine. I saw the 1st Gen Machines at Westec 20 years ago.

Within 20 years we will have a working Replicator. We are that close. Then anything is possible,,,, and affordable!

[FergusonTO35]

As far as hand fitting goes there are bunches of unemployed and underemployed machinists and manufacturing technicians in business friendly states. I think that is the largest reason Remington and other manufacturers are migrating south.

[oldblinddog]

From what I gather, I would stay away from the Remy brand, but I really like the looks/action of the others. I even have 4 of the H&R single shot models as well.

I have four Remington 700's that I bought within the last year (that have the new trigger), all from Sportsmans Warehouse, that will each shoot 1/2" groups with the factory ammo they like. I have three more that are <10 years old (that have the old trigger) that will do the same thing. In fact, I have owned more than 20 700's of various configurations, all factory stock, and every one of them would do that! Most often with Remington Corelokt ammo bought from Walmart. How anyone has anything bad to say about a Remington 700 is beyond me.

And I have owned a Handi Rifle (.22 Hornet) and a couple of Rugers (Number 3 in .223 and 77 International in .308) that sprayed bullets all over the countryside...

My ex wife killed the unluckiest whitetail buck in Texas with a shot to the neck from that Number 3 and it's open sights. :sad:

[Artful]

and a couple of Rugers (Number 3 in .223 and 77 International in .308) that sprayed bullets all over the countryside...

My ex wife killed the unluckiest whitetail buck in Texas with a shot to the neck from that Number 3 and it's open sights. :sad:

Love my #3's - this might help your's
http://www.beartoothbullets.com/tech_notes/archive_tech_notes.htm/4

http://www.varminthuntinginternational.com/accurizingnoruger.html

https://www.riflemagazine.com/magazine/PDF/ri51partial.pdf

[oldblinddog]

Oh, both of those rifles are long gone. Thanks anyway though.

[Garyshome]

Crappy Chinese steel.

[northmn]

Found this thread interesting because I kind of got an itch for a 257 when I saw a sale bill that had 3 of them. Could not find any ammo in the stores and reloading suppliers were limited. Ended up picking up a Mossberg bolt action 243 for $200 that came with loading dies, cases and bullets. It shoots about as well as I need it to and I took a nice little eating buck with it this year.
Thing is that if I like the 243 it gave me an inexpensive sample of the cartridge, such that if I wanted to I could move up to something better. I do not know if it would stand up to a lot fo shooting but I expect to maybe shoot a few varmint loads through it and maybe a few deer loads. Some of my deer rifles have gone a while seeing 2 shots a year fired out of them. One to see if they still are sighted in and one for the deer. My 35 Remington is like that. At the price of the Mossberg if I wanted I could save the trouble of sighting in for different loads and have 2 of them.
By the way a couple fo the 257's at the auction went for around $800. I had an old Remington 722 in 300 Savage for a bit and I am darned if I would pay $800 for one. It was not a bad rifle but definitely not worth that. I had a duck gun with one of the black plastic stocks and it worked. It could double up as a canoe paddle if I dropped one overboard. There is something to be said about not worrying about scratching up a pretty stock. As I used to build muzzle loaders, complete with very nicely finished wood stocks that I had to baby I kind of appreciate the black plastic durability.

DEP

[oldblinddog]

Was that a Remington 700 Classic in .257 Roberts? If so, that was a bargain price. It was the very first limited edition in 1982.

[wingspar]

I bought a Savage Hog Hunter in .308 last year for $450. The trigger is a consistent 3 lbs 6 oz and the barrel is threaded for a muzzle brake or suppresser. I put a nice stock and scope on it and I now have one fine shooting rifle. Till I bought this gun, I had never shot beyond 100 yards before, but this thing impressed me at 300 yards this summer.

http://www.pbase.com/wingspar/image/159470803/original.jpg

[northmn]

They were not 700's but the older 722. I don't do collectors either. The other reason I did not jump for a 257 is that I could not at the time get commercial either locally or on order. There are no calibers so effective or desirable that I cannot find a more common alternative that will work. As others have mentioned, for half that price I could get a more usable rifle. A person I worked with asked me about reloading. He had a 257 Weatherby. A box of ammunition cost him around $100 or $5.00 a pop. I told him to sell it and get a 25-06. Of course the Weatherby has some sort of magic over the 25-06 that made that seem unreasonable. Later on he asked me if I knew where he could get a scoped 308 or something like that.

DP

[jonp]

I hope the cheaper rifles shoot ok. I bought 2 Savage Axis today. $250 each OTD and if I had signed up for a Cabela's card they would have been $235 each. Do I expect target grade? No, but I expect 1in since I'm going to reload for both. I bet I get it too

[JeffHolt]

I just picked up a Howa 1500 in 308 Win 20 heavy barrel. This one came tricked out w/Hogue over molded, pillar embedded stock, a Nikko-Sterling 4-16x44 1 inch scope, a match grade 2 stage trigger that breaks like glass, Buffalo tilting bipod and the detachable mag upgrade for 10 rnd capacity mags. The whole gun and scope was dipped in Kryptek Typhoon. $750.00 for the whole shabang. These things are supposed to shoot sub MOA out of the box. I thought the fit, finish was excellent. Was looking for a Savage but I think these Howas should make comparable shooters AND they are good looking!

[glockky]

I bought a Savage Hog Hunter in .308 last year for $450. The trigger is a consistent 3 lbs 6 oz and the barrel is threaded for a muzzle brake or suppresser. I put a nice stock and scope on it and I now have one fine shooting rifle. Till I bought this gun, I had never shot beyond 100 yards before, but this thing impressed me at 300 yards this summer.

http://www.pbase.com/wingspar/image/159470803/original.jpg
Is that a bell and carlson stock ? Looks Nice !

[wingspar]

Is that a bell and carlson stock ? Looks Nice !

Yes. It is the Bell & Carlson Medalist/Varment stock.

[Love Life]

I just picked up a Howa 1500 in 308 Win 20 heavy barrel. this one came tricked out w/Hogue over mold pillar embedded stock, a scope, Buffalo tilting bipod and the detachable mag upgrade. The whole gun and scope was dipped in Kryptek Typhoon. $750.00 for the whole shabang. these things are supposed to shoot sub MOA out of the box. I thought the fit, finish was excellent. was looking for a Savage but I think these Howas are comparable shooters AND good looking!

Tom Eardley won a 1,000 yd F-class match at Palamino Valley Gun Club with a bone stock Howa 1500 using a USO scope, and 175 gr SMK bullets.

[Wolfer]

Like many here I like wood and steel. I like my guns to have soul. Mausers, old Marlins, old Remington's etc.
When I decided to start prairie dog hunting I needed a rifle. Not sure that I would like it I bought a Savage 111 in 223 with the black plastic stock. $316 out the door. ( this has been a long time ago.)
I was impressed by the way it shot but hated the plastic stock and factory trigger. This was before accutrigger.
First I put in a sharpshooter trigger. A year or so later I had Fred Wenig turn me a laminated stock for it.
Cut the stock to fit me and now the gun had soul. At least to me anyway. Lots of prairie dogs later the old barrel gave out and was replaced with a Shaw.

All that's left of the original gun is the bolt, action and mag well. Topped with a 5x15 Bausch & Lomb and a Harris bipod I now have $1250.00 in it.

Being a poor boy I like these cheap rifles because I can build them as I want when I can afford it but use them in the meantime.

[rsrocket1]

http://castboolits.gunloads.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=156301&stc=1&thumb=1&d=1450925704
^^^ Wow, that's a big prairie "dog"!

Very classy looking gun there.

[Wolfer]

We grow em big here in Missouri.
Actually that was the first picture of the rifle I came across.

[northmn]

I had an old Savage 110 in 243, factory trigger white wood stock stained. The darn thing would practically one hole varmit loads using the lighter bullets. It was just the inexpensive sporter and I traded it off as I was doing a lot of that back then. The old Savages would shoot, but many only had one action length suitable for 30-06 class cartridges. Had one in a 223 with a heavy barrel that had a spacer in the magazine to take the shorter cartridge in the longer action.
Kind of like Wolfers comment about using the less expensive rifles and fixing them up while getting the use out of them. That Savage 223 gave me fits until I figured out that the inexpensive Bushnell scope was not holding zero. When I tried another scope it shot very well. The rifle actually deserved a much higher grade of scope than I ever put on it as it was that accurate. I wonder how many of these inexpensive rifles get put down because of the inexpensive scopes that they seem to get paired with. Although the scopes have also come a long way since then.

DEP

[nicodiesel]

i got a savage left hand 116 in 300 win mag that was a custom order from savage for less than 1000$ canadian wich really considering us/ca exchange realy high. tried it at range with regular winchester grey box and shooting under 1" at 100 yards. i own pricy rifles that dont do that good even with fine tuned reload.

[Wolfer]

When I was looking to buy a 223 I had pretty much decided on a Ruger 77. My buddy the had an FFL said he could get me a Savage $100 cheaper and it would outshoot the Ruger. I had my doubts but when talking to Carrol Pilant at Sierra bullets he said the same thing.
I can't say since I never bought the Ruger but I would think it would have a hard time against a Savage.

The out of the box Ruger was a classy rifle though. The Savage was not.
How is it they say. Pretty is as pretty does!

[wonderwolf]

When I was looking to buy a 223 I had pretty much decided on a Ruger 77. My buddy the had an FFL said he could get me a Savage $100 cheaper and it would outshoot the Ruger. I had my doubts but when talking to Carrol Pilant at Sierra bullets he said the same thing.
I can't say since I never bought the Ruger but I would think it would have a hard time against a Savage.

The out of the box Ruger was a classy rifle though. The Savage was not.
How is it they say. Pretty is as pretty does!

Rugers with the exception of their new precision have had a tough time in the consistently accurate department I've found. The savage rifles are easier to work on and play around with to boot, would like to find some take off barrels in different calibers for my axis still....35 whelen (evil laugh)

[izzyjoe]

My wife bought me savage axis 223 for Christmas last year, man that thing shoots like a lazer, the stock has to go though,I'm not found of plastic, it has no soul!

[54bore]

I almost bought the Ruger American predator rifle in 6.5 creedmoor for my wife, I have no hands on experience with them but have read lots of great reviews, my favorite of the budget rifles is the weatherby vanguard S2, I had one in .257 weatherby that shot dime size groups at 100 yards every time if I did my part, it was a little bit much for my wife so I ended up selling it to a friend and then bought the exact same rifle except in 7MM-08, this new little rifle shoots just as good as the .257 did. There's a lot of stiff competition between the gun companies these days to produce a good solid gun at an affordable price, I like it!! Yes the high end fancy guns are really nice, but not everyone can afford 1000 and UP UP UP on such guns, I have a Remington 700 XCR 7Mag that I really like but I don't think it's any better than this S2 Vanguard

[W.R.Buchanan]

54 bore: and that's the point. The level of accuracy available is attributable to two different components, Better Bullets and Better Barrels. The rest of the gun has much less to do with the end result on the target in front of you.

I personally think that bullets are the larger contributor to the equation as they have advanced more in the last 20 years than barrels have. They have been making good barrels for along time, but I can't explain how the cheapest bullets available still go into <1MOA from my Ruger Scout, other than to say it's barrel is exceptional. However what I continue to hear is that they all are exceptional so the barrels must be contributing greatly.

The rest of these guns is more about advancements in Manufacturing Techniques and simple designs. Plastic Molded stocks instead of wood is another factor in their favor. They don't cost as much or take as much time to make but they have an excellent effect on accuracy since they don't move around like wood does.

The above point made that more people can afford to buy these new guns is where this whole discussion leads us. This gets more people involved with guns and that's a good thing. Now if we could just get every gun manufacturer to include a NRA membership with every gun sold we'd soon have 10 million people in the NRA and that's what we really need!

Randy

[Yodogsandman]

A few weeks ago, I got a demo Remington model 793 in a 270 win for $169.99, out the door. I added a Bushnel 3-12x50 scope and mounts bringing my total to $230. This is my first group with V-Max bullets.

[Jtarm]

Yeah I get tickled when I hear the old "don't make em like they used to" saw.

You can walk into a big box & out with an HP rifle & factory ammo capable of putting three in one inch at 100 yards (assuming good optics & shooting.)

I paid $300 new for my Ruger M-77 in 1984. That would be close to $1,000 today. I had to glass/float & work up good loads to get one-MOA groups.

It's a good time to be a bolt-action rifle shooter.

I guess the grouches are right: they don't make em like they used to. Many are a lot better.

[W.R.Buchanan]

Yes guys, Time marches on and what was new yesterday has gone by the wayside tomorrow.

The advances in machine tools has a lot to do with this situation.

As fabrication techniques continue to automate the prices have got to come down even more simply because the greatest expense in the manufacturing chain is Man Power. and when you eliminate those men your product gets better and your labor costs go down.

I learned very early on in my machine shop career that the less human hands touched a part the better it turned out. Simple fact of life.

Art Work is what Hand Work is called now,,, but Production Work is NOT Art Work.

Production Work is work done to feed the masses. IE: Henry Ford

Production Work is done for utilitarian purposes.

You can have a Hand Made Claw Hammer that is a work of art, but what you probably need, is a cheap well made claw hammer you can actually use everyday to make a living, and if it breaks you can get another one easily.

Snap On used to make the best tools out there. They were essentially Art Work.

Now they are made in China!

So much for Art Work.

Randy

[Four Fingers of Death]

Speaking of cheap, modern rifles, I bought a 222 Remington Marlin X7 today. It will be run in on jacketed bullets then will be a cast boolit rifle. It will replace my Remington 788 in 222, which is in excellent condition, but I like to carry the rifle on the sling afield and don't want to risk losing the bolt and mags are all but impossible to obtain here. I have a friend offering me more for the 788 than the X7 costs, so it is a no brainer for me.

[mjwcaster]

People also have so many more choices than blued and wood.
The cerakoting craze is in full swing.
The shop I work at does a lot of it, just delivered an AR in black and dark silver the other day that was the best looking ar I have ever seen.
We are working on bringing in a line of 1911's in the white to be custom finished in the customers choice of colors.
The market for beautiful blued guns is drying up, there is a beautiful Turnbull 1911 on consignment in the shop that doesn't even get a second look by customers, they will buy something else and drop the money to have it done in they're own color choice.

So many choices the wife got overwhelmed trying to pick colors for her new shield.
Guns are getting customized all the time, just in different ways than they used to.

Just look at what is available in colors now, looked at lcp's the other day, must be 20 colors offered by the factory now.
Same with many other guns.

My plan is to get a few savages and eventually restock them how I want, not what the factory thinks I should have.

[wadcutter]

Which of the modern cheap-but-good rifles comes with a wood stock? Laminated is ok.

[W.R.Buchanan]

Custom work is definitely an option and when you are only spending $3-400 on the initial purchase, there is a lot of room in most budgets for extras that enhance the appearance and functionality of the gun.

I saw one last night that I was not aware of, it was a Thompson Center Bolt Action similar to the Ruger American Rifle for a MSRP of $399. That's easily below $325-350 at street level. Guaranteed sub MOA with their ammo and available in both short and long actions in all the popular Hunting calibers.

Lots of room for a new paintjob on that one.

I just bought a new Ruger 10/22 collectors series. It has a Gray Composite Stock which may or may not stay that way. I would prefer a darker gray or possibly a dark OD green camo job.

I have also been looking at a Ruger 77/44 and the choices are SS with Black stock or Camo with SS. I don't really want either and would gravitate towards Black metal with a Dark OD Green Stock. Cera-Kote is not that hard to do at home as long as you can come up with a suitable sized oven to bake the stuff in. It is the best gun coating I have ever seen and comes in every color of the Rainbow. They are using it on Cars and Engines now, saw it at SEMA. Believe me,,, Once it is on there,,,, it's on there!

These new guns are opening up lots of new possibilities, and I just love "Customizing stuff!"

Randy

[charlie b]

What a great topic. Why don't 'they' make $500 heirloom guns? Because people will pay way over $1000 for one. 99% of us who buy guns want accurate tools to use, yes, like Henry Ford's production line. The same reason I drive a diesel pickup. It is a tool, not an exotic sports car, and priced that way. I don't want a fancy walnut stock or a polished deep blue finish that I have to worry about when taking it in the field. Plastic and brushed stainless work for me.

If I want an heirloom gun I will go to a maker and select stock material and have them fit it to an action and barrel of my choosing. Meanwhile I will keep my father-in-law's M1 Garand, my grandfather's 1911 (not 1911A1), and my father's Python where they won't get damaged. Yes, they get fired all the time, but, not out in the woods. And they will be handed down to the next generation who will care for them the same. Hunting guns? Nope.

Having said that, my last purchase was a nice Lyman Great Plains Hunter muzzle loader. Beautiful stock and metal. No, not polished, it is still a field gun :)

I am happy as a pig in s*** that we can get these inexpensive rifles that shoot so well. I will probably buy another one in the near future.

[charlie b]

What a great topic. Why don't 'they' make $500 heirloom guns? Because people will pay way over $1000 for one. 99% of us who buy guns want accurate tools to use, yes, like Henry Ford's production line. The same reason I drive a diesel pickup. It is a tool, not an exotic sports car, and priced that way. I don't want a fancy walnut stock or a polished deep blue finish that I have to worry about when taking it in the field. Plastic and brushed stainless work for me.

If I want an heirloom gun I will go to a maker and select stock material and have them fit it to an action and barrel of my choosing. Meanwhile I will keep my father-in-law's M1 Garand, my grandfather's 1911 (not 1911A1), and my father's Python where they won't get damaged. Yes, they get fired all the time, but, not out in the woods. And they will be handed down to the next generation who will care for them the same. Hunting guns? Nope.

Having said that, my last purchase was a nice Lyman Great Plains Hunter muzzle loader. Beautiful stock and metal. No, not polished, it is still a field gun :)

I am happy as a pig in s*** that we can get these inexpensive rifles that shoot so well. I will probably buy another one in the near future.

PS and you can always take one of these inexpensive shooters, get a nice stock made for it, have a gunsmith polish and blue it to your satisfaction, maybe even add some engraving and nice checkering. Then you'll have your heirloom gun. And, yes, the stock maker will probably use CNC machinery to inlet and shape the stock, maybe even do the checkering/carving. Same with the metalwork, except the polishing and bluing part. So, you'll come away with a nice gun for around $1000 that used to cost several thousand.

[country gent]

One of the major reasons for these inexpensive rifles is the strides made in manufacturing in the last 20-30 years. In the late 1800s to early 1900s holding +/- .010 was state of the art on production equipment. From then to the early 50s +/- .005 was doing really good. Then into the 70s it was .001 and with modern cnc and equipment .0005 isnt hard to accomplish. With modern fiberglassstocks little hand work is needed with modern machining little hand fitting is needed saving cost in manufacturing. Another area is the lower scrap rates of this equipment saving costs.

[Four Fingers of Death]

The new cutting tips are amazing, cutting cleanly and preferring high speeds leaving a good finish and not requiring clean up or finishing. My brother has a brilliant lathe and using the fancy tips can rip metal of leaving a mirror finish.

[dverna]

It makes almost no sense to buy a Mosin or any of the mil-surp rifles anymore. By the time you fix them up and modify them to take a scope you are at the price of a new econo rifle that will outshoot it.

I bought a Howa mini-mauser for $350 a short while ago. It was in the Cabela's flier so not a "find". CDNN has Brownings for about $500 this week.

Lot's of good buys if you are patient.

Don Verna

[NoAngel]

My Ruger American Ranch rifle was less than $400. I wasn't expecting much for a 8 twist 16" barrel but I wanted something to put my YHM Ti Phantom on. That little booger is a friggin tack driver. Best money I have spent in years.

[Texas by God]

my most accurate hunting rifle is a Remington Model 710 chambered in 300 Win mag. This rifle shoots 3 shots inside of 1/2 all the time at 100 yds. Very accurate, son kills deer with it. Doesnt want to borrow anything else.

Yep. I had one in .270 that shot and worked fine. For $150 with scope. Best, Thomas.

[Rich/WIS]

About 2 month ago my Son-in-law bought a new Winchester M70, rifle was a package deal with a better grade Bushnell scope but plastic stock. Price at the LGS was $630. He wanted better scope so they gave him an$80 credit and he purchased a Leopold for it. Fellow on E-bay had new factory M70 stocks for $150 shipped so we added that to the rifle. He now has a controlled feed M70 with an extremely nice walnut stock for $700 not counting the scope. I bought a M70 FWT about 3 years ago, used (only sign of use was the filler screws were gone from mounting a scope) with a decent walnut stock for $700. Not the bargain guns, but nice walnut, good workmanship, and controlled feed. FWIW I also have a pre-war M70 and comparing the workmanship the new rifles are light years ahead in fit and also in accuracy.

[tdoyka]

just myself, i don't like the inexpensive rifles much. i've had few "IR" (tc venture, savage axis and ruger american), but i just never warmed up to them. the black plastic stocks and the plastic magazines were just some of the things i don't care about. but they shot under a inch, i will give them that. i have only one black plastic stock and that is the savage m12, which my dad has absconded it.

i have used old rem m700s, old win m70s and ruger m77 and #1 that have shot 1/2-3/4" at 100 yards(old being before 1980's). my little brother has a real old win m54 in 270 that is a tack driver, 1/4" at 100 yards using 130gr bt and imr4320(or is it 4350? i'll have to check my notes). i have just shot a bubbasized '98 spr armory in 30-40 krag(old redfield peep sight, no-drill) that goes roughly under a 1/2" at 100 yards(3 shots) while using a 165gr ranch dog with h4198(25.5gr). it normally can do a 3/4 - 1 1/4" group, but it can do a 1/2" group.

i do like old calibers with old guns. the fit and finish the old timers had was unbelievable. the newer guns look like the newer cars do, they all look and feel the same.

just spouting off, i like to ramble off about nothing.

[warboar_21]

I just picked up two new rifles. One fits the budget rifle as its the Ruger American all weather in left hand.

The other was more money but the quality of the rifle puts it in the low budget category. It's a Remington 700 sps varmint model. Haven't even shot it yet as I had to send it back to the factory for their poor workmanship. The so called adjustable trigger is none adjustable and two out of the four scope mounting holes stripped out when I removed the plugs.

The quality of Remington rifles continues to decline. Freedom group has been the worst thing to ever happen to Remington.

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-N920A using Tapatalk

[Texas by God]

With the modern machinery &methods of manufacture it seems like some company could produce an inexpensive rolling or falling block single shot. Go ahead and use plastic stocks. We'll replace it if the gun is good enough.

[dragon813gt]

You mean like Henry's forthcoming single shots?

[pressonregardless]

If they are saving so much money using modern manufacturing methods, then why not
take some of that money they saved & put them in a decent looking wood stock ?

[charlie b]

I'd rather have plastic stocks. I will take a laminated wood stock if I have to. Solid wood, no.

[tdoyka]

wood and laminate, good.
plastic, not on your life.

[Silverboolit]

I think that the introductory rifles, Axis,American, etc. are designed for hunters like my bro-in-law. Three shots to check in sighting, maybe 2 shots for deer, and back into the case for another 11 mos.

[charlie b]

Or people like me, who just want to go to the range and shoot. I was one of those who bought a Rem 788 when they first came out (mine was in 7mm-08). Despite all the negative comments from a lot of folks and magazine writers I loved it. It would shoot into an inch or less at 100yd and was handy to carry. I would have loved a plastic stock on it, especially since the factory stock was an ugly chunk of wood. I put a couple thousand rounds through it before I sold it.

[Four Fingers of Death]

I have two 788s, a 222 and a 22/250. They really punch above their weight. I like the stock shape, but they are crafted from pallet wood I think, haha.

[mcdaniel.mac]

I'm not big on the Remingtons, but the new Ruger American line is my go-to recommendation for a first centerfire rifle. I just wish someone would start making metal aftermarket mags.

[Texas by God]

You mean like Henry's forthcoming single shots?

I am waiting on those. The pics look good. But I want a falling or rolling block for about $400. Crazy, huh?

[Texas by God]

The 788 was 13 years old when the 7mm-08 was introduced. Except for the late 60s walnut stocks they were all stocked with Birch. Birch is a white hardwood that is a perfect wood for gunstocks albeit plain looking. Best, Thomas.

[leadman]

I recently bought a Ruger American Predator in 6.5 Creedmoor, right hand bolt. I'm a lefty but I wanted the threaded barrel to use a suppressor on without adding the cost of the gunsmith. I really like the 3 lug bolt with 70 degree lift and the action sized to the cartridge. This thing will shoot! Still breaking it in and trying loads but 1" at 100 yards is pretty easy to do. Best group so far is about 1/2".
I had thought about other inexpensive guns but ruled out a T/C due to the recalls on so many of their guns and the poor machining of the new Contender and Encore barrels. Their barrels are made in Kentucky now.
My son has a Savage Axis in 270 Win. that I shot before our elk hunt. Was able to group shots a less than 2" at 200 yards with factory ammo.
There are videos on U-Tube with the Predator delivering the goods at 1000 yards and more.
I will probably buy another American in left hand and have the barrel threaded.