AHHHHH!!!! Feed problems with .452 bullets [Archive]

cdrCargil

10-14-2005, 10:29 AM

Long before I ordered my molds and sizer/luber I read quite a bit. I chose the following mold and sizer.

Lee 2-cav 452-230gr Trunticated cone. 452 diameter 230 grain.
Lee Lube and Size kit 452 diameter

I spent a couple days melting down WW and making ingots and made some good bullets last night after a couple tries.

Well I loaded up the bullets this morning and find that the 452 is just a bit to large. Every round does'nt feed properly, and has problems extracting. I guess I shoulda got the 451 diameter.

Now before I try and return this to Midway USA (who knows if they'll take a used mold) I want to be damn sure that this is my problem,(although I am pretty sure it is.)

So anyone that has expieriance with MidwayUSA and returns Please post a reply here so I can see what their Customer service is like.

*************************

Just thought of the OBVIOUS ...........I need a lube sizer for .451 diameter not a new mold correct? DUH!!!!!! Tell me if my thinking is correct please.

Thanks,
Richard

Bass Ackward

10-14-2005, 10:45 AM

Long before I ordered my molds and sizer/luber I read quite a bit. I chose the following mold and sizer.

Now before I try and return this to Lee (who knows if they'll take a used mold) I want to be damn sure that this is my problem,(although I am pretty sure it is.)

So anyone that has expieriance with MidwayUSA and returns Please post a reply here so I can see what their Customer service is like.

Thanks,
Richard

Richard,

Molds come in one size, that is to say the size the mold maker makes it in. Then you buy sizers to get the final diameter you need. In fact many people have to adjust their mix if they need bigger than the mold will throw.

But there are numerous issues that determine what diameter "YOU need". Like bullet design and shape. Expected seating depth. And then determine diameter from there. Since you have the cart a little ahead of the horse, I suggest you ask someone that has this design to send you a couple of bullets in the mail sized .451 before you .... take any further actions. To ensure that it will function.

Please memorize this. The very first step that you execute with any new firearm that you intend to shoot cast bullets in, is to slug the bore and throat before you buy anything.

Because if you ignore this step, it more than likely costs you additional funds or simply results in poor performance and great disatisfaction.

9.3X62AL

10-14-2005, 10:56 AM

LOTS of reasons why the loaded cartridges won't feed--and I'm guessing a 45 ACP/1911A1 combo here.

.452" boolits have fed 45 ACP's successfully for a long, long time. The Lee boolit is a bevel-base design, I think......is it swelling the case walls excessively near its base position within the case?

What crimp (if any) are you using to finish the reload?

Have you mic'ed the radial dimensions of the loaded round to see if they are within specs throughout its entire length? Also, have you mic'ed the sized boolits?

Remove the barrel from the pistol, and see how the loaded rounds fit in the chamber portion of the barrel.

Sorry to answer your questions with my questions--but a .452" boolit in most 45 ACP's should work just fine assuming good spec regimen. I have the Lee TC designs in 9mm, 40 S&W, and 45 ACP--and they feed real well in my pistols. I seat them with about .025" of boolit sidewall above the case mouth, then apply a mild taper crimp.

I don't think a .001" reduction in boolit diameter will resolve the egregious feeding problems you're having here. There's something else in the assembly equation taking place that's causing your grief.

cdrCargil

10-14-2005, 10:59 AM

I've been shooting and reloading my own for about 7 years. I have tried a few differant bypes of bullets WC, SWC, TC etc. WHen I buy factory ammo I have always used 230 grain .45 cal. How does the factory ammo always fit my bore and my reloads not?

I have bought 451 diameter bullets to reload before I began casting, (couple of days back was my first cast.) I have not had any issues with 451 dmtr bullets in the past with feed issues. I understand what slugging the bore will do for me, but I thought the sizer was intented to make sure that the bullets are not larger then they should be coming out of the 452 mold. Like a last step insurance you dont have them to large. I did'nt know that "sizing" or scaling down the bullets was feasable.

I did some searching, Lee does'nt make a 451 mold, hence my obvious Ureka about the sizer to 451.

BTW my pistol is about two years old. I have used a couple differant bullets in reloading, but always 451 and never had any issues.

I have a local guy that is a major caster. I will go by and see him before I do anything.

Thanks
Richard

Scrounger

10-14-2005, 11:06 AM

Play around with the overall length of the round, that is more likely the problem than a one thousandth diameter difference. Some pistol/ magazine combinations like a little different length than factory nominal.

cdrCargil

10-14-2005, 11:08 AM

I gave up my 1911 a couple years back. Now I am shooting a S&W 99 .45 auto. It's my first polimer pistol and has been a good shooter for two years. I have'nt ever had any feed problems with factory ammo or my own reloads. Like I said, this is my first few days casting.

No swelling on the case near the base. I have a real minor crimp put on but not much.

When I load the round into the chamberit does'nt seat fully. A **** hair is what I'm talking about, but it's enough that the round does'nt want to extract. The extractor catches the base of the round easy enough, but I see after removing the round that just above the top of the brass it's pinching the bullet itself. The case does'nt look like it's bulging at all.
That's why I think I should switch to a 451 sizer.

BTW I'm here checking back ever few minutes to read what you guys are saying. It's 11:07 eastern. If you've got the time please reply. I'll be back in a few minutes.

9.3X62AL

10-14-2005, 11:13 AM

OK--did you check your rounds that didn't feed correctly to see whether or not the boolit was hitting the rifling leade? This would show up as short rifling origin impressions in the boolit sidewall or nose edge. A lot of 45 ACP's have VERY short, abrupt throats--and overlength cartridge assemblies can cause difficulties in chambering and extraction. If there is a significant amount of boolit sidewall protruding from the case mouth in the assembled cartridge, this may set up the problem you're having.

We'll get this figured out. There are a LOT of VERY knowledgeable 45 ACP folks on the board, who have forgotten more than I know on the subject.

9.3X62AL

10-14-2005, 11:19 AM

Sounds like the cartridge is overlength--if it was too wide radially, it would hang up sooner in the cycle.

cdrCargil

10-14-2005, 11:32 AM

No on the rifling leade.
Overal case length is a milimeter shorter then factory rounds I have.
The bullet rim is just above thelip of the feed ramp. By this I mean it does'nt seat the way it should and the distance is almost the thickness of the rim.

I have a caliper but it is old and not very acurate. But comparing this round with the factory ammo, I do detect a small bulge at the base, since the lead itself does'nt apear to be marred, I think the bulging at the base of the round means I'm not sized correctly at 452.

The reason the round is not seating is a bulge at the base of the bullet itself, hence its to big at the base.

Ok, what's next?

9.3X62AL

10-14-2005, 11:45 AM

OK--maybe that's the cause, but let's play this out a bit. A lot of die sets will cause a "Coke-bottle" effect by first sizing down the brass a little too much, then expanding the case mouth out to form the "expanded" portion we're talking about here. One other possibility is inside taper of the case wall interfering with the boolit base. This shows up most frequently with +P cases. What cases are you using?

Try a little test that will cost you at most 5 loaded rounds, which can be "de-bulleted" afterwards. Using the seater die, seat one of the rounds' bullet .005" deeper--2nd round, seat the boolit .010" deeper--3rd round, .015" deeper, until Round 5 is .025" deeper. If the cartridge is overlength, one of these "shortening" cartridges should fit properly in the chamber. If the cartridge fit gets worse as they shorten, then the bullet base/case wall interface could be at fault as you surmise.

Don't predicate overall cartridge length of your reloaded round on a factory round UNLESS both cartridges are using the EXACT same bullet design. Every cartridge assembly is a law unto itself, largely due to bullet shape differences. Loading them longer may relieve the problem, as long as there is no interference with the throat and the round fits the magazine.

It sounds like you're using a metric vernier caliper. 1mm = ~.040", so if your vernier scale can do 1/10mm, that will be around .004". OK, .003937" for the precisionists here.

cdrCargil

10-14-2005, 11:58 AM

Ok.

I will load em up and get back with you this evening when I get home. I have to go upstairs and clean up for the other half before my bullet making liberties are revoked.

Check back with this thread tomorrow and see about my progress please.

Thanks,
Richard

9.3X62AL

10-14-2005, 12:01 PM

Will do, senor. Good luck.

StarMetal

10-14-2005, 12:03 PM

Okay.....451-.452 are the norm sizing diameters for 45 acp cast bullet..so forget that .452 is too large. Sounds to me that either your dies aren't sizing the case down enough, you have an overly tight chamber, or both. Factory jacketed bullets come in both .451 and .452 diameter so that's not it. I have two guns that have really tight chamber: A Clark match barrel for my 1911 and my Ruger Blackhawk extra 45 acp cylinder. The ruger especially is fuzzy about sizing an crimp. I have a set of Hornady titanium coated 45 acp dies and on the box it says 45 acp, 45 AR, and 45 Long Colt. Well I can tell you that 45 acp takes different sizing the 45 Long Colt and behold if I use those Hornady dies for 45 acps they won't fit my Ruger. Thus I reverted back to my RCBS old lube style dies.

Anyways that's what I think it is. Have you tried a sized case but with no bullet to see if fully seats????

Joe

Scrounger

10-14-2005, 12:17 PM

David R

10-14-2005, 06:05 PM

If all else that everyone here has suggested, you MAY try loading a boolit into an UMPRIMED case and with the depriming stem removed, run it in the sizer again. this will crimp down the boolit.

I think you have an OAL issiue. Perhaps you could load the boolit so the front driving band is flush with the front of the case and see if that one feeds.

I would try the second idea first.

Good luck
David

AZ Pete

10-14-2005, 06:50 PM

One thing that can cause that problem is too tight a taper crimp. What happens when you crimp too tight with a lead bullet is that the portion of the bullet that is just outside the case mouth gets larger in diameter. They will not chamber reliably, if at all, like that. Try less taper crimp and see what happens.

I am guessing that your crimper was set up and working will with .451's and has not been adjusted for the larger diameter .452 bullets.

Best of luck to you.

SharpsShooter

10-14-2005, 08:46 PM

FWIW I've seen this one before and the cure is rather simple in most, note I did say most cases (pardon ther pun) It sounds like the bell of the case mouth is not being removed completely in the seating process and the case is wedged to the chamber wall just short of full depth. Solution: try a tighter crimp that completely removes the bell of the case mouth. I bet it fixes ya right up.

harley45

10-15-2005, 05:05 PM

When I first started casting I bought the Lee lube sizer kit and a .452 sizer die I was having feeding problems like you describe. I finally measured my bullets with a Mic. and they were comming out at .455 Lee had mispackaged the sizer die. Just somthing to check I am thinking you may have an overall length problem also.
Eric

Char-Gar

10-15-2005, 11:03 PM

cdr...I doubt if 452 sizing diameter is your problem. My guess (like other) is the OA length of your rounds. Sound like the shoulder of the bullet is jaming into the rifling. Try this:

Remove the barrel from your pistol and drop a loaded round in. Seat the bullet into the case and keep trying it in the barrel until the case head is flush with the barrel hood. Use a good straight edge to determin this.

Your rounds should now drop in the barrel chamber without a problem and you pistol will probablyl run just fine.

Char-Gar

10-15-2005, 11:06 PM

Oh yes...if you don't have a taper crimp die, get one. Adjust it thusly..

1) Put a loaded round of factory ammo in the ram of your press and run ram to it's highest point and then screw the die down on the bullet.

2) Screw the die down on the loaded round as tight as you can using hand pressure only..no tools or wrenches.

3) Now set the lock ring on the die

you are now set up to get a perfect .470 taper crimp on the case mouth.

Rob Helms

10-16-2005, 12:56 AM

I had the same problem you describe with one of my pistols when I went to a larger diameter bullet. I was using a hornady die set that did not taper crimp. I bought a Lee Factory Crimp die. Now I don't even size the bullets I cast. I tumble lube them with Lee Liquid Alox and load them as cast. The Lee Factory Crimp Die taper crimps and resizes the whole case as the last step. I have had no more feeding problems with any of my 45's with a variety of different bullets. I have since purchased factory crimp dies for 2 other calibers and am very pleased with their performance.

cdrCargil

10-16-2005, 01:04 AM

Ok what a bunch of advice.

ten differant people telling me ten differant things.

Ok first off, I put the finger on my rounds at the tip of the brass near the base of the bullet and you can feel the bulge. As if the bullet itself is a **** hair to large at the base be low the lube groove. So if you use he index finger and thumb and "stroke the bullet" you can feel where the bullet starts in the brass. Hence i believe the 452 sixer is not correct. I know switching down to a 451 does'nt seem like a big improvement on the diameter of the bullet base, but the overall bullet length is the same as a factory round. My old caliper is good enough to tell that.

Like I said before the bullet will not seat fully into the chamberThe rim of the case is sitcking outabout halfway. So about half the width of the rim will not fully seat. There is no deformation of the bullet itself. No scars or marks on the bullet itself, just that the small bulge at the base of the bullet seem to be preventing the full seat of the round in the chamber.

I am going to try differant seeting depths and crimps on my Lee progresive press and see what happens. I haven't had the time to see my master caster friend. But I am off tomorrow and will give him a call and see if he's got time to see my stuff. I'll take him samples of new cast bullets, lubed and unlubed, bullets I've made and everything else.
I'll write more tomorrow after I've had a chance to see what i can produce on the press.

KEEP THE ADVICE COMING. I've got 300 lbs of lead to cast into bullets and want to have another 500 rounds mad in the next couple days. Once I get about 2000 rounds made up, I'll be happy and can invite my buddies to the range without fear of running low anytime soon.

Thanks all.
Richard

Scrounger

10-16-2005, 01:22 AM

Seeing a bulge there is not too meaningful. In order to securely hold a .452 bullet, your brass must be sized to an inside diameter of .450 or less. When a bullet of .452" is inserted into the case, that part of the case will be expanded to a diameter of .452" plus 2X your brass thickness. Your taper crimp die will reduce it to fit your chamber. When it is properly adjusted. Once again, I strongly recommend the Lee Factory Crimp Die. If you will look in a loading manual that shows case dimensions for the .45 ACP, you will note that the diameter of the case at the top is 0.473". Keep adjusting your crimping die until the case at that point on the loaded round measures that (.473") or a thousandth or two less, and it will chamber correctly. You may have to play with OAL to get it to feed from the magazine properly, but those are two separate problems which can seem to be related but really aren't.

StarMetal

10-16-2005, 01:24 AM

Richard,

I've been shooting 45acp's for almost 40 yrs, out of 1911's , Ruger P90's, Ruger single actions with the extra 45acp cylinder, Thompson machinegun, HK submachine gun, Italian submachine gun, and countless friends 45acps firearms...with my cast bullets and reloads...and nary a problem. I know if I was at your house I've fix your problem in a few minuts GAURANTEED...you're just doing something wrong. Oh by the way I have loaded RCBS 255 gr SWC for the 45 Long Colt in my 45 acps, bullet sized at .452, and that bullet is a hell of alot longer then a normal 45acp bullet, and the case bulged (you could tell where the base of the bullet is) and it fired and cycled good out of quite a few 45 acp pistols I've had. Hopefully your caster friend can point out what your doing wrong. One more thing, I use a set of RCBS dies I but almost 40 yrs ago to load all those.

Joe

cdrCargil

10-16-2005, 02:36 AM

Well I've tried backing off the die and setting it to no crimp at all,
I've tried seating the bullet as deep as I dare, and just about every setting I can think of on the press.

Lessening the crimp made things better, but nowhere near perfect. I definately will have to goto the expert to see what I'm screwing up. I don't mean to sound like an *******, but I've been reloading on my old Lee progresive for about 7 years. Countless rounds have come off that simple press, and I still can't figure out what I'm doing wrong.

Could it be that the S&W99 barrel/chamber just does'nt like the 230 gr 452diameter trunticated cone bullet?

Char-Gar

10-16-2005, 06:00 AM

I will confess, that I missed the part about what kind of pistol you had. I committed the "sin of assmption" that it was a 1911. Forget everything I posted as I don't know squat about those S&W plastic pistols.

I have been loading the 45 ACP round for 44 years in the 1911 and later a SIG P220 without any major problems. It really is a simple round to load that doesn't present a very long list of potential problems.

I am like Starmetal (Joe)..If I had you pistol in one hand and some of the problem ammo in the other, I could find the problem in a couple of minutes. It is very hard to diagnose what is going on via the internet.

I would not hazard a guess as what your problem is, but I would start by purchasing one of those Dillon loaded round gages. You drop a loaded round in this gage and it checks all the specs. If your ammo drops in this guage without any problem, then your have some kind of compatibility problem between your lead bullet and the pistol. Those gages are not very expensive and will tell you reams about your loaded rounds. You really need to have one on your bench anyway.

Char-Gar

10-16-2005, 06:12 AM

Just one additional thought about cast bullets in autopistols in general. You didn't mention your alloy for you cast bullets. Most often the autopistol requires a harder alloy than a sixgun. When the bullet hits the feed ramp, if the alloy is too soft and/or the feed ramp is a mite rough, the bullet can stick for a nano second throwing the timing of the pistol off.

These autopistols are pretty amazing gizmos. Each of those moving parts have to do their thing in the proper sequence if one step in the squence is throw out of it's proper order and time, the pistol can and probably will hang up on you.

The 230 TC design bullet is pretty well a universal design and will feed well is just about any pistol. At least that has been my experience with these type of bullets.

Still..buy the Dillon guage!

castalott

10-16-2005, 09:13 AM

Hi Richard!

I can't address the extraction problem but I have the same mold in 6 cavity. The bullets don't feed well in any gun (1911 style) I've tried them in. I have one gun that feeds empties a lot better than these feed..... Maybe I'm doing something wrong too.....lol

Good Luck!

Dale

StarMetal

10-16-2005, 11:29 AM

My Thompson subgun feeds empties, as do my tuned 1911's, I was surprised at that. But..I do find it hard to believe that a gun would feed empties better then if they were loaded with a truncated nose bullet as that style bullet has no 90 deg sharp ledged shoulder to snag anything. That baby should feed.

I agree with Charger, without the offending ammo and gun in hand it's hard to diagnos.

Charger your statement about you've reloaded for a 1911 type pistol all those yrs and not the Smith plastic gun doesn't matter pardner, you still qualify because a 45acp chamber is a 45 acp chamber no matter what gun it's in. Let me say something about the 45acp chamber. Contrary to popular belief the 45acp round and chamber are not straight. Mr. Browning designed it with a slight taper. That cartridge gauge Charger suggested is a good idea, but alot of us just pull the barrel out and use it for our gauge.

You know the recoil spring is most 45's are pretty stout...say 16 lbs and up. Whatever the problem is, it must be pretty solid. By that I mean if the weight of the slide and that powerful spring propelling it doesn't force seat that round something is really out of whack.

Well if your friend resolves the problem please do tell us what it was.

Joe

Blackwater

10-16-2005, 10:31 PM

cdrCargil, I went back and read your original post again, and if you're using that 230 gr. TC bullet, and seating to the same OAL as for a 230 gr. RN, then you're definitely seating it out too long.

The 230 TC should be seated to the OAL that will make the outer "mouth" of that 230 RN, so that point will hit the feed ramp and bounce/slide up into the chamber.

Imagine that 230 RN with the nose clipped off at the same point where your 230 TC's nose would be. Seat to THAT OAL, which will of course be shorter due to the flat nose. Make sense, or have I been clear as mud?

drinks

10-16-2005, 11:50 PM

A Stoney Point OAL gauge set and a Lee factory crimp die should take care of your problems.

StarMetal

10-16-2005, 11:55 PM

Richard,

What Blackwater said makes sense and being there should be a little leade in or cone to your bore and rifling the taper on the nose of the bullet might match the angle of the cone pretty close and not leave a mark on the bullet if it is seated out alittle too far. I assumed you knew how deep to seat a 45 acp bullet and it's not necessarily by OAL all the time. Most manuals recommend about 1/32 inch of the sharp shoulder exposed from the mouth of the case, no more, no less.

Joe

cdrCargil

10-17-2005, 08:05 AM

I'm going this afternoon to see my buddy that is a master caster. He does'nt shoot anymore because of health reasons, but has been running a small comercial casting operation for years. I know he'll be able to diagnose my problem.

I will post whatever happens here so that you guys can know what I've been doing wrong and give someone the satisfaction of knowing they figured it out from 1000 miles away.

Check back sometime this evening.

Richard

castalott

10-17-2005, 09:35 PM

Hi Starmetal....
I tuned one 45 myself and it will feed sized empties pretty good. It doesn't like these TC bulets at all.. Feeds roundnose like there is a vacuum in there....I don't remember exactly what was wrong with the TC...it's been a few years since I even played with it...

cdrCargil

10-18-2005, 10:23 PM

GREAT GETTIN UP IN THE MORNING!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

I took my dies and casts over to my buddies place and told him what kind of problems I was having. He measured my bullets, my cases, examined my rounds and told me what everyone here was telling me. I am screwing up in the reloading process. He declared my bullets fine. Using strait WW I have a brinnel hardness of appx 28. He said that was maybe a little high but fine.

He told me to tear down all my die settings, not just my crimp and bullets depth, but all of them ans start over. So I did. I reset everything after a judicious cleaning and did a few test rounds. I only had one hangup, and that was because I set the bullet in at a little bit of an angle, and sheared off some lead.

So I was making bullets fine. However I was set all wrong for the new bullets. I had been for years using a 230 gr SWC and went to a 230gr TC. I thought that seating depth and crimp was the only thing I should be changing when moving to a new bullet. But I was woefully mistaken.

With a little tinkering I am now turning out bullets that should run through fine in my SW99. I just hope that they shoot well at the range. I should know by Thusday when I have a day off to take a trip to the range.

Thank everyone for thier input. I appricitate it more then you all know.

BTW I talked to him about the forum. He asked which one I was visiting. I told him and he said he used to drop in here quite a bit way back when. This forum come highly rated from him.

PS Man he has a nice setup. Totally auto 100lb caster. Dump in the alloy, turn on the TV in his shop and watchem drop. Same with the luber. Star auto sizer luber. He definately put a bug up my ass about getting some new equipment. Now if I can only convince my wife to let me spend $12,000 for his setup. He makes about 20 differant bullets. Everything from a small 85 gr 32 auto round, all the way up to a massive 650 gr 45-70. Mostly makes round for match guys, and cowboy shooters. I can tell I'll be visiting him much more often. Learn from the best....

Thanks guys. I am now a life member of the crazy bullet casting crew, and will be spending alot of reading time here.

BTW anyone know where I can order a good digital caliper that won't cost me an arm and a leg? I use Lee uquipment so you can tell I am on a strict budget (wife imposed.)

Blackwater

10-18-2005, 11:15 PM

cdrCargil, glad you got it sorted out, but here's one last tip:

When loading the .45 ACP, if you get feed problems, an old "trick" is to take a loaded factory 230 gr. bullet (std. hardball round) and set it in your shellholder in your press. Then, run the loaded round up on the ram before screwing the seater/crimp die into the press. Loosen the seater/crimp die's lock ring and run it up so that you can screw the die down over the hardball round, and unscrew the seater plug to raise it up out of contact with the bullet. Then screw the seater/crimp die into the press until you get gentle but moderately firm contact with the loaded round. That'll set your crimp very close to that of a factory round. Set the lockring at that point and lock it down. Then run the seater plug for a RN bullet down onto the factory round until it makes gentle but moderately firm contact with the nose of the bullet, and lock that down there with the lock ring on that part of the die.

Voila'! Now, your die is set to the exact contour of a factory 230 gr. round nose bullet. Use that setup to initially seat a test round of ANY other bullet, and the critical points on the bullet that contact the feed ramp should be pretty darn close to that length. Only shooting will tell you whether you need to go a smidge longer or shorter with most SWC's and TC's. The short nosed ones, like the 190 gr. Lee cast SWC bullet may have to be seated a mite shorter, but with many bullets that setup - essentially duplicating the outside contours of a hardball round - you should be really close and should only have to fine tune things from there. Remember to keep good records, too, because OAL will affect your gun's ability to feed any given bullet effectively. This has worked for me, anyway, and is my problem-solving "go to" proceedure if I get any problems with feeding.

Ain't .45's FUN! :wink:

David R

10-19-2005, 06:29 AM

Commander,

It that what they call ya?

frankford aresonal Dial calipers are as good as any. I bought 2 sets for 16.95. One at work and one at home. Yes I have a set of brown and sharp calipers that I keep on my loading bench, but the frankford aresonal (Lee) are just as good. I paid more for the wood box my brown and sharp set are kept in than I did for the Lee set box included.

So I am glad you got it shooting right, what exactly was the problem? Too long? Too much or not enough crimp?

David