How to time a 1860 pietta cap & ball revolver?

[Fly]

My 1860 Army is not indexing right. The lever that comes up from the bottom to engage the slots in the cylinder are
hitting one side of those notches. Can you tell me the fix to this problem?

Fly ~

[Walkingwolf]

You will probably have to fit the pawl to the cylinder, may be necessary to buy a new one. It is probably best done by a gunsmith if you have not done it before. It is simply filing off metal in the right spots, but knowing those right spots is the trick.

[Beagle333]

Here's how I discovered how to fix that, a few years ago. Once you do it, it is really easy, but here is my first learning experience documented.
http://thefiringline.com/forums/showthread.php?t=475195&highlight=bolt

I was fixing an 1851 Sheriff's model, but it's a Pietta with the exact same frame and parts as the 1860.

[Der Gebirgsjager]

Good presentation, Beagle. I looked at all your photos. What did you do about the metal that was displaced into the cylinder bolt locking notches? One method is to take a hard steel punch of appropriate size and tap the metal back to where it belongs again. Another method is to grind a lathe bit to the width of the notches and then use it as a hand scraper to dig out the displaced metal. But, if you narrowed the locking lug and don't want to buy and fit a new one, then maybe it's best left alone.

[Beagle333]

I got that displaced metal out using a tool from the Pettifogger article. It is a metal scraper thingy that is super hard and I used it to kind of whittle that displaced metal back out and put a square edge on the cylinder notch again..... sort of like if I had a lathe bit that size. I'll look back through and see if I can find/show the tool. There are probably some better, but this was the recommended one. It sure takes a steady hand though, because it wants to keep jumping out of the notch if you aren't really braced up well.



Okay... I looked it up.
http://www.use-enco.com/CGI/INSRIT?PMAKA=380-0840
As you can see... it's a hand scraper tool, so you gotta be careful with it. There are probably better tools, but this one is hard as a diamond and you can just whittle on that soft Italian steel like you were carving a wooden block.

[Der Gebirgsjager]

Thanks! I'll probably order a couple. A fellow just can't have enough tools........can he?:smile:

[Omnivore]

You mean the bolt is releasing too late. (Or maybe the hand is too short - that would have a similar result). The bevel at the tip of the bolt leg is so it'll more easily be pushed away by the cam as the hammer falls. To delay bolt release, you'd need to work on the side of the bolt leg that rides against the hammer, and slightly round the edge farther down from the tip. Also the tension the bolt leg exerts against the hammer can play a role in determining the moment of release-- If the leg pushed harder against the hammer it will tend to release later, and if it pushes less hard, it will tend to release sooner. Also the cams on the Italian repros tend to be shamfully soft, and a soft cam will wear quickly, usually causing the bolt to release sooner. It depends on how it wears though.

I've solved this on two of my guns by replacing the hammer cam with a hardened one. On a colt that probably means grinding off the cam and drilling a hole in the hammer to take a new cam. Pietta Remington cams are press-fit into the hammer already, so they can be punched out.

Also, some of the bolt springs are brutally strong, which is totally unnecessary and contributes to cam wear, and to cylinder damage as you indicate. You may want to try one of the wire spring replacements from Wolf Springs.

First though is to understand just how the hammer cam and the bolt interact to do what they do. In the cocking sequence, the cam first presents its thickest part to the bolt leg, thus pushing the leg forward to begin unlocking the bolt from the cylindder, then the hand (or "pawl") begins to rotate the cylinder. As the hammer rotates farther back, the cam (because of the taper on it) presents a thinner and thinner profile against the bolt leg until the bolt leg eventually slips off of the cam because the cam is so thin. Therefore a bolt leg with a sharp corner against the hammer will release later than a bolt leg with a more rounded corner againt the hammer. The rotational position of the cam's slope, relative to the rest of the hammer, also determines the timing of bolt release, as does the bolt leg tension against the hammer, and the amount of wear on the cam near the release point. The length of the hand will of course also determine where the cylinder is at the moment of bolt release, so it all works together to determine where the bolt hits the cylinder. There is quite a bit of fudge room, really, but of course at the end of the cocking sequence the trigger must be cocked and the bolt locked into the cylinder, preferably in that order with very little space in between. Thus there are revolvers in "perfect" timing that exhibit four distinct clicks, and some that exhibit three (because the bolt locks into the cylinder at about the same time as the trigger falls into full cock).

[45 Dragoon]

Omnivore has a fairly good description of what happens during the cycle but, as the hammer is thumbed back, the cam is being pulled away from the bolt arm (I was taught "arm") as well. When the cam is removed far enough, the arm should fall straight off the front of the cam (as if the cam was a solid stud ). Falling to the side will wear the arm and the cam and eventually both will need replacement. So, it's the cam being pulled away from the arm that causes the drop, not the sliding off the side of a diminishing surface. A correct surface on the arm would not be affected by the diminishing cam surface. It should be perfectly flat against the cam and should be full profile. The side tension of the arm is to insure the arm stays on the cam and has nothing to do with timing.
This is where tuning pays off. You are preventing pre-mature wear and ideally, extending the life of the action parts much further than the " norm".

As far as the " clicks" go, a correctly timed open top should have 3 clicks. Half cock, bolt drop and the third is the simultaneous actions of full cock and the bolt snapping into the cyl locking notch. The Mod P ('73) was the first to have 4 clicks when timed correctly. The first click being the sear passing the safety notch and the rest being the same as previous models.

Mike
www.goonsgunworks.com
Follow me on Instagram @ goonsgunworks

[Omnivore]

45 D; Your description is exactly how I originally assumed the bolt and cam should work together, but I discovered that my Wap repros do not work that way - the bolt leg slides off, while flexing inward, due to diminished cam thickness. I sort of wish they worked the way you describe. I don't have any direct experience with "real" guns, so I have only gone by what I've seen. I have installed hardened cams in a couple of my Wap guns, using the operation principle they came with, and that seems to have eliminated the ugly wear and tear that I see on my soft steel Wap factory cams. The bolt legs are something of a spring steel and so I haven't noticed significant wear on those (if any). I've worn cams down to where the bolt leg has "sawn" a deep slot into the cam, replaced the cam, and I'm still using original bolts.

My brand new Pietta inox Target model Remington doesn't have a "click" at all when the bolt releases bacause it eases the bolt upward into contact with the cylinder before it fully releases. If I remove the cylinder I can see the bolt ease upward, and then finally release with a click, but the cylinder precludes the click. Maybe it's the only one of half a dozen or so of my Wap guns that's actually releasing the far end of bolt leg off the cam without it slipping inward over the cam slope. I'll have to inspect it more closely to find out. If the cam is as soft as the others, then it will show me what's happening-- there will be a gouge forming in it if the bolt leg is bending over and slipping off that way, like everyone one of my other Italian guns did originally.

So we're talking abnout two very different modes of operation here, with very different timing solutions, both apparently in common practice-- Whether intentionally from the manufacturers or inadvertently I don't know.

I believe you, but the Italians don't seem to have gotten the memo. Lots of things SHOULD be the case, and the Italians don't make those happen either, like their chamber to groove diameter relationships.

It sounds like Fly's bolt is releasing late, and so by your standard he should simply shorten the bolt leg until it releases where he wants it. He hasn't come back in to clarify though. I had a Colt that had "the thingy that fits in the cylinder hole thingies" rubbing on one side of the leads rather than in the center of the leads, and it was cutting a white line right at the edge of the lead where the lead meets the cylinder proper. A little work on the bolt's locking surface cured that. For all I can tell, that's what Fly may be talking about.

"Indexing" is quite a different matter from anything any of us have been discussing in this thread (except maybe Fly - I can't tell), so it seems to me that the first thing to get straight would be the nomenclature. Fly has been around on these forums for years, and so I'd think he'd know a bolt from a cylinder notch, and indexing from timing. Maybe he's just playing with us.

[45 Dragoon]

Hey Omnivore,
I understand why you would think the bolt would work as you describe, all the Italians make it over here pretty much that way. In truth, they don't really care, as long as they function and fire. Also in truth, it is a copy of a Colt action and can be set up correctly. The difference of the two set ups described here is , one slides off the cam which would wear Depending on the hardness of the parts in question. The Design of the operation is that it falls off the front of the cam which promotes the least possible wear. The mechanical operation of the action is "simple", setting it up to work correctly is the hard part.
The way they arrive here, no wonder they wear out and or break. I've had a cam wear out in less than 50 cycles. You seem to be handy and if you don't have it already, the Jerry Kuhnhausen book " The Colt Single Action Revolvers" is perfect for laying out exactly how the action is designed to work and how to set it up and the sequence it is done.
I have tweaked small things over time that work for my set up and promotes a lighter/"slicker" action. I have a standard routine that allows me to get through them quicker now and end up with a better product. All of my tunings have the same exact things done and the same "additional" installs which leave the action quite light, utterly reliable and extremely strong. In fact, the difference between my setup and a fanner setup is the actual timing. A fanner has to have installs (action stops and bolt blocks) to be able to handle its repeated "lightening fast" cycles. This is "overkill" for a normal revolver and that is exactly why it's part of my standard service.

When I get done with one, she will treat ya like a lady but don't be fooled! If you slapp her around a little, . . . . . . . . she'll just smile at you!!!

Mike
www.goonsgunworks.com
Follow me on Instagram @ goonsgunworks

[Omnivore]

Nice answer, 45 Dragoon.

I will keep all that in mind for the next time I have to fix an Italian repro (which shouldn't be long, being as I still have some stock guns). I was pleasantly surprized at how much better my Uberti Colt '61 Navy and Pietta Remington Army feel after just installing a polished and hardened cam with a lower profile, even though they still operate in the "push over" mode. I'm also keeping that book title; thanks.

Now I have a question for you. As far as I can tell, the Remington New Models and the Colts work on the exact same principles (thoughbeit the Remington trigger and bolt pivot on the same screw whereas Colt uses separate screws) and so; would you say that the Remington bolt and cam should operate the same as the way you describe the Colt?

[45 Dragoon]

Omni,
I do treat them the same and it's the same surfaces doing the same thing. Likewise, I drop the bolt about a bolt width in front my of the locking notch. You'll find there's less area to work with though as far as where the cam meets the bolt arm.
Even though that's the case, I have yet to make a Remington "feel" like the Colt action. You can make them as light and nice but I guess the geometry just isn't there. Colt type actions have the "feel" everyone wishes for!

Mike
www.goonsgunworks.com
Follow me on Instagram @ goonsgunworks

[Omnivore]

I have yet to make a Remington "feel" like the Colt action. You can make them as light and nice but I guess the geometry just isn't there. Colt type actions have the "feel" everyone wishes for!

Roger that. The Remington main spring "stacks" a LOT more, i.e. it will be very light with the hammer down, but very heavy when cocked. The colt doesn't stack much at all, and I believe it is due to the location of the point on the hammer where the spring bears-- the roller. The spring itself plays a role of course, but as you say; the geometry is different. If the Remington spring roller could be located farther down in its arc, it would, when cocked, come closer to that bottom point in the arc where the spring tension no longer increases. By the feel of a Colt, I'd say that's what's happening. Another factor would be the distance of the roller from the hammer pivot, i.e. the radius. If they're different, then I'd say that the Remington has a longer radius, and so it's working the spring through a greater range of motion. Or if the spring itself is in effect shorter, then that'll have the same result.

[45 Dragoon]

Omni,
I reduce the hammer draw on Remies the same as I do on the Colt types, to about 3 lbs.. The Remington has almost no tension at rest like this so to give it tension, so it will stay safely in the safety notches, an upward bend where the hammer roll rests works very well. It also has the added effect of increasing speed right at the end of travel, right when you would want it!

It's like insurance for popping caps!

Mike
www.goonsgunworks.com
Follow me on Instagram @ goonsgunworks

[Omnivore]

Mm hmm; something else to play with there. Thanks for the tip.