30-40 krag casting. my slow slow progress.

[gusbratz]

I starting out reloading with a lee loader I bought off ebay and a scale about 5 years ago. I loaded a few jacketed bullets and shot them but with the price of jacketed bullets I felt it was hardly worth the trouble. Then I read an article about casting for the 30-40 krag here at this link. http://www.lasc.us/FryxellCB30-40krag.htm it sounded fun and all I needed was a mold! How simple! So I bought a lee TL309- 230 grain boat tail mold. I heated some old wheel weights up in a ladle over a cutting torch and cast some boolits. They did bad, keyholeing 30" groups at 50 feet bad. So I slugged my bore and it was .308 at both ends. Those cast boat tails were about .300 so no wonder it did so poorly. I then purchased a lee c309-200 grain round nose mold. It dropped .309 bullets with a .300 nose. I really thought those .309 bullets would do the trick. But they shot the same as the first ones. All over. I then bought some .30 cal gas checks and just pushed them on before I loaded. That got me into 24" groups at 50 feet. At least now I could use a sheet of newspaper as a target. The next step was an old single stage herters press and a set of full length sizing dies, then an old used lyman 45 lubrisizer and a .311 sizing die for it. I lapped the round nose mold out to .312 and lubrisized the bullets and crimped on the gas checks properly. I purchased a used chrony so I could watch the speed. I realized I had been pushing the bullets at around 2000 fps. Lowering my loads and down to 1700 fps got me down to 6" groups at 100 yards. Not feeling satisfied with my casting accuracy I bought an electric bottom pour melting pot and cast some better boolits. At some point I found that belling the mouth of the case out with some needle nosed plyers made it so the boolit didn’t shave off lead as it got pressed into the case. I then discovered/ purchased some lee case mouth expanding dies. I am now into 3” groups at 100 yards. It has been a bit of a rabbit hole and frustrating at times but like most things in life that seems to make it more satisfying. To me 3”groups at 100 yards is not quite good enough. I am thinking about lapping the mold out so it throws a larger diameter nose to fill the throat out more. Any other improvement you guys could recommend?
Thanks.

[Hardcast416taylor]

It`s kinda like eating a bag of theater popcorn, once you start you just can`t stop! Sounds like you have made miles of improvements in your casting/shooting.Robert

[Char-Gar]

The Krag rifle can be a very good cast bullet shooter, or it can be a frustrating witch until you break the code. Here is what I have learned about the rifle and loading cast bullets for it.

1. Most of these rifles have bores laden with jacketed bullet metal fouling and wont do well with cast until it is removed.

2. The Krag rifle has a quite large throat and bullets .312 - .314 do better than smaller one regardless of the size of the barrel grooves.

The rest of the stuff such as alloy, bullet lube, bullet design etc. etc. is pretty much the same as any other 30 caliber rifle such as the 30-30, 30-06 etc. Best accuracy will be found at 1,500 to 1,700 fps with gas check bullets and plain base bullets will do well up to about 1,300 fps. 16 to 18 grain of 2400, 4227 or 4759 will give pleasing accuracy.

Have fun...

[reed1911]

I would try neck sizing only, other powders (to see if you find a better combo), and then adjust the seating depth of your bullet.

3" at 100yds is nothing to sneeze at and you have proven yourself a shooter, now it comes to dialing it to the gnat's rear.

[blixen01]

I followed the same path in casting. And I'm at about the same point you are now.. If you aren't using a scope, 3" groups aren't bad.

My Krag does a little better with open sights and the Lee 185 gr. Enfield mold. But every rifle is different. I'm tempted to try the 200 gr.

[gusbratz]

thanks guys, the rifle has a weaver k4 scope that was put on in the 60's. I really think I need to fill the throat out more. the boolits I am shooting have a .300 nose and .311 driving bands after sizing. I wonder if I could use a small flapper wheel to sand the nose out of the mold to .312 and see where that gets me.

[reed1911]

No, no! don't do that you will end up putting a radius on the leading edge and it will leak causing 'flashing' on the bullet. If you want to open the nose up, look at the stickies and 'begal' it, which is basically casing a bullet, putting a drive of some sort into the bullet, and then using lapping compound on the bullet with the mold closed to open it up.

[Char-Gar]

No, no! don't do that you will end up putting a radius on the leading edge and it will leak causing 'flashing' on the bullet. If you want to open the nose up, look at the stickies and 'begal' it, which is basically casing a bullet, putting a drive of some sort into the bullet, and then using lapping compound on the bullet with the mold closed to open it up.

Beagle would turn over in his grave, except he is not dead. What you are describing is lapping a mold larger. Beagle used small strips of aluminum AC duct tape on the insides of the block to cause mold to cast a larger bullets. That is what Beagling is.

Our dear OP should stop trying to ruin his mold and just split for a good quality mold of the right size.

[catskinner]

I have never slugged my Krag. I use a custom mold that is a copy of the Old West 311-190. Mold casts .3125 on the driving and .302 on the nose. Rifle has an old Weaver J 2.5X scope on it and will shoot 2-2.5 moa out to 200 yards using enough IMR 4227 to get 1600 fps.Check to make sure the nose of your bullet is big enough to ride the lands.

[gusbratz]

i wasn't happy with the beagle technique. it seemed like the bullets were way out of round when I did that so I lapped my mold out to where it is now. I may lap the nose out from .300 to .304 and see how it shoots. I thought a flapper wheel may work. it was only a 20$ lee 2 cavity aluminum mold so I really don't feel bad modifying it. I am tempted to buy another 20$ lee aluminum mold and chuck it up in my lathe and try to cut a .35 cal mold for my remmington someday if I can get the krag sorted out.

[dondiego]

I found that it is easier for me to buy a .35 cal mold than to hone out a .30 cal to .35!

[dondiego]

I found that it is easier for me to buy a .35 cal mold than to hone out a .30 cal to .35!

[reed1911]

Our dear OP should stop trying to ruin his mold and just split for a good quality mold of the right size.


NO! From the tone of the OP it appears he is a frugal man. Not everyone has the funds or desire to buy a mold when they feel like it. I'm sorry but I found that comment offensive. Just my opinion mind you.

I indeed mis-named the technique yup, lap it to fit your barrel as a good nose rider and with a little fiddling I'll bet you get her in the 1-2 range.

[leadman]

Lee now has a 35 caliber boolit mold that drops a 200gr boolit.

When the OP cleans his barrel he should include the use of JB Bore Paste, a mild abrasive. The original bullets for the Krag had jackets made of Cupro-Nickel that most solvents won't remove. Sweet's solvent has ammonia in it and it will remove the CN most of the time. The JB will smooth out the bore also.
Lee also makes a mold for the 303 British that may do well in the Krag if a larger nose is needed.

[chutesnreloads]

Powder coating your boolits will make your nose a bit fatter too and no need to alter a mold that can't be changed back.

[gusbratz]

we are on the same page leadman. I wish I had just bought that 303 brit mold to start with. I have been using foaming bore cleaner that says it turns blue or green if copper fouling is present. I have soaked overnight several times and scrubbed and scrubbed and I don't know if I will ever stop getting dirty patches. it is clearing up though. Where can I buy a lee 200 grain .35? that is just what I want. the only 35 cal molds I saw at midway and ebay were the higher end 75$ molds that I would have to get handles for. I sort of hate to spend that much on something that Is a bit of a gamble until I shoot some bullets out of my gun and see how they do.

[Char-Gar]

A 35 caliber mold...surely you jest! For the Krag you want a fat 30 caliber mold which would do well for the 303 Brit., 7.65 Argie and a few others. These would be 31 caliber molds, more less. A 35 caliber would run .358 and you would have to size it down to .314 the the nose most likely would be too big to ride on the lands.

Now as to frugal, I understand frugal, but I have to rethink my comment about the whole issue. The OP should go ahead and do whatever he wants to his Lee molds for they are pretty much junk to start with. Throwing one in the trash would not be much of a loss to the world of casting. So if you have a Lee mold, get out the pipe wrenches, rat tail files and sanding drums as there is not really much to lose.

If, I understand the OP, he is on a quest to better his 3 MOA groups. I think it is possible to drop those groups to 2 MOA, but anything smaller would be an iffy proposition. Now I am talking consistent, on demand ten shot groups. A fluke 3 shot group doesn't count in the accuracy game.

Now if a fellow is going to get all the accuracy the Krag has to give, he is going to need a mold that will cast bullets .313 - 315 on the body and .301 - .302 on the nose. Such molds are to be had, but trying to open up a Lee mold by crude methods won't get a fellow there.

If not spending any more money is the goal, the settle for the 3 MOA and call it a day. But if you are going for all the accuracy the rifle will give, then it will most likely entail buying a better quality and better fitting mold. Ultimate accuracy and garage Lee mold modification are not consistent notions.

If a Lee mold is the only thing the pocket book will stand, Lee does make a 303 B mold which would most likely come closer to getting the fellow where he wants to be.

[Char-Gar]

Our dear OP should stop trying to ruin his mold and just split for a good quality mold of the right size.


NO! From the tone of the OP it appears he is a frugal man. Not everyone has the funds or desire to buy a mold when they feel like it. I'm sorry but I found that comment offensive. Just my opinion mind you.

I indeed mis-named the technique yup, lap it to fit your barrel as a good nose rider and with a little fiddling I'll bet you get her in the 1-2 range.

Offensive? That is a mite over the top is it not.

[blixen01]

Gusbratz,
I've been casting a few years with about same results as you out of military sporters, including SMLEs, Arisakas, Argy mausers. The exceptions have been my Krag (I guess I got lucky, it shoots .311" boolits very well) and my Yugo 8mm for which I got an 8x56 Lee 200 gr. mold and honed a sizer up to .329".

One neophyte to another:

Before you spend a bunch of money, try a couple things that worked for me. Reduce the variables when you shoot for groups.
1. Cull your bullets by quality (plink with the crappy ones)
2. Sort your bullets by weight. Some say 2 or 3 grains difference doesn't matter, but I sort to 1 gr. Just to be sure.
3. Use cases of the same brand. I sometimes weigh them to be sure. Thicker (heavier) cases will change the pressure.
4. I try to keep powder charges consistent to 0.1 grain especially with light pistol powder loads.

5. And so on ... For primers, bullet seating, etc.

6. If you are doing the above, you may need to spend some money.

Btw, I own several Lee molds and I like them.

I honed out the Lee 185 British 303 mold to .315-.316" for my Arisaka (didn't help) and I size It down to .311" for my Krag. It shots really well*.

*I get 100 yard 2.5" - 3" groups with a peep sight and think that's awesome. So take what I say with a grain of salt.

[dondiego]

"A 35 caliber mold...surely you jest! "

He had mentioned wanting a .35 cal mold for another rifle but was planning on hogging out a .30 cal mold to make one!

[W.R.Buchanan]

As a Machinist, I cringe when people talk about honing out moulds. A thousandth or so,,, sure you can do that with a boolit and some lapping compound.

When you start talking rotary files and flapper wheels there is no way your boolits will be round. And the reason why is that in order for them to be round you must remove exactly the same amount of material all the way around the cavity. This is impossible to do with hand type grinding tools. You will invariably favor one side over the other and as a result more will come off there and the boolit will not be round.

Second: I saw no mention of you slugging your barrel? Might want to do that as it will at least tell you what the lands and grooves measure.

You are assuming that your guns throat is not standard. Unless you have done a Chamber Cast and have measured it, you don't know for sure what it is. So changing the mould based on that theory is pointless.

Bullet fit is not the only thing to consider here.

First you are at 3MOA right now. That means you must be doing something right.

If you simply sort your boolits by weight to .1 grain and shoot those groups of boolits together, you will see a dramatic difference in your group sizes.

You can do this without changing your mould.

I have three boolits that I use for .30 cal rifles. Lyman 311041 for my .30-30. .311299 for my .30-06's and .308's, and a Lee 308-190 which also works well. All of these moulds are as they came from the factory and the Lee mould was my second mould purchased in 1978, and still drops perfect boolits every time.

For my Enfield I use a Lyman 314299 which fits it's barrel perfectly. That gun shot those boolits all over the place using 5744 powder. Then I switched to 16 gr of 2400 and the groups dropped to 3" with Iron sights.,, Then I weighed and categorized my boolits in groups that were all within .1gr of each other. The groups dropped to 1.5" at 100 yards using iron sights.

I then shot 31/40 in Short Range Silhouette with that gun! I have already won our clubs Big Bore Short Range Silhouette competition this year as a result of this.

Before you start modifying things,,, try these things. I have never modified a mould and I actually could do it right.

Randy