Liberty vs Sturdy safe?

[2ndAmendmentNut]

Mods please move if this is in the wrong place.

My next big gun related purchase will be a quality gun safe. I know no safe is theft proof, and it really is just buying time. I really want a gun safe for the fire protection.

Liberty has some really impressive testimonials on their site attesting to the security their safes offer from theft and fire. Only problem is these testimonials are all on Liberty's own site, which is designed to sell me a safe. Anyone have some independent testimonials?
http://www.libertysafe.com/
(http://www.libertysafe.com/)
Sturdy offers a no nonsense style safe, with thicker steel than Liberty but I am having trouble finding any reviews from customers that have experienced house fires or attempted theft. Any Sturdy safe owners out there that can offer some testimonials?
http://www.sturdysafe.com/

Finally, if your budget was in the $3500-4000 price range which safe would you buy? Liberty or Sturdy?

[rockrat]

Can't help you with that, but when you look at a safe, look at what materials the dividers are made from. My Ft. Knox safe used particle board and when I put a little pressure on it, it snapped. For what I paid for it, you would think they could have spent another $20 and used plywood instead.

[paul h]

If you really want fire protection, then I would look at where your safe is located and consider building a concrete and/or sheet rock enclosure around it. While a safe with fire protection provides some protection, if the house if fully engulfed and burns to the slab the guns are likely going to be toast no matter what level of fire protection the safe has.

[buckwheatpaul]

Just bought my 2nd Cannon....fireproof for 75 minutes with lifetime warranty....it is the 80 gun safe and is well made....The safe was on sale at Tractor Supply....weight 750 pounds....I would like a non press wood rack system...but I am good with wood and will cure the press wood shelves....overall very happy .... would recommend....and it was truly a bear to get into place......Paul:bigsmyl2:

[Gar]

Of the two you have listed, I would go with Sturdy Safe and that is only because the website is honest about their fire rating.
None of the safe companies listed above have a UL 72 fire rating.
The other two companies mention above are trying to con you into believing their "fire rating" is something more than it is.

[Kent Fowler]

I can understand you wanting fire protection, but don't let that wholly guide your criteria for a safe. I was looking at safes at one of our big box sporting goods stores the other day, and while they had good thick doors, most of the thickness was filler material which looked pretty beefy when you looked at it, but the actual thickness of the metal door and sides was 1/8 inch. I looked at every safe they had for sale, and all of them were pretty thin. I bought a Bxxxxxxx safe about 1989 which had a 1/4" plate door. I told a friend of mine who was a gun dealer about it and he said to knock on the sides of the safe and it sounded like a 55 gallon barrel. He said the thieves had been entering those safes by chopping the side of the safe out with an ax. My perfect safe would start with at least 1/4" plate on all sides. It would be interesting to find out which has the highest chance of happening, a burglary or a fire. I bet the insurance companies could tell you if they wanted to.

[dragon813gt]

I have both brands. And only the Sturdy can be considered a true safe. The Liberty is a glorified locker. The Sturdy I bought has every option when it comes to upgrading metal thickness. The Liberty I could put a pickax through.

Anything of real value is in the Sturdy. The Liberty was the best option at it's price point and I was on a budget at the time.

Fire ratings are a joke. Every manufacturer uses different test methods. Take them w/ a grain of salt. A safe buys you time. More metal means more time. My Sturdy has no fire proofing because it's of no concern to me. If you buy based on fire rating you may find it a poor choice if you experience a house fire.

If you look at real safes you will see what real fire proofing consists of. It does not consist of sheet rock. I'd look into Amsec if you are truly concerned about fire proofing.

[edctexas]

I bought AMSEC after looking at them all. You need to decide if you are more worried about fire or theft. Most home burglars come in and get out as fast as possible with as much easily portable valuables as they can. With an alarm system, they need to get something and clear out before the cops show up. Fire is something you can not predict. My neighbor had a fire that destroyed the entire living room. Between him, me, and FD, it was stopped but $100K on a $200K house in 15 min. If he had a good safe with UL ratings, all his guns would have been saved. They were in a display cabinet and it was a total loss.

I traded my Canon safe for an AMSEC. I think both would protect from burglars, but in fire rating there would be alot of difference. If keep watching, some of the Amsec safes go on sale just around the SHOT show when they announce new safes for guns.

Ed C

[bob208]

I have a liberty best money I ever spent.

house was broken into and they worked on that safe along time. they tried to pry the boor they tried to beat the door. they knocked the tumbler off. which caused the safety pin to drop. which meant the locksmith had to come out to open it and repair it. but the 50 Winchesters and 20 handguns are still mine.

[RogerDat]

Making the safe hard to attack by positioning in corner, nook or closet and anchoring to the floor are pretty much required for any safe to have a chance. 8 ft. pry bar with 200# guy on the end exerts a lot of force if stuffed into the door seam so if the safe can be gotten onto its back or provides enough "swing" room for the long pry bar most will allow entry through force. How long it takes is the only question. Anything rated as a "home security container" is not a safe, insurance company will be more than happy to tell you the difference.

Fire proof material will tend to sweat so desiccant or humidity control inside is generally required.

Give a lot of thought to the safe location, basement on a raised concrete pad so safe is above minor flooding and can be mounted solidly tends to be one of the better locations. Not much point in a fire proof safe that falls through the floor in a fire and sustains enough damage hitting the basement floor that it fails. In a closet with bolts through the floor so it can't easily be moved or tipped over and no room to work on it with pry tools is also good.

I do not know if there is some rule of thumb on amount to spend on safe based on value of contents but real 1/4 inch steel fireproof safe with good lock protection features that will prevent drilling or punching out the lock mechanism will not be cheap. If you can get away with 60 minutes of fire protection and extra 20 minutes of theft protection you are going to spend a lot less and cover most situations. Nothing will keep a thief out if they walk by a 6 inch angle grinder with cut off wheel on it in the garage or brought one with them.

For just theft (I know OP wanted fire too but just for information purposes) a steel construction gang box for tools that is well secured to building or floor is very hard to break into. Can hold a lot of gun cases or have a rack set into it. Certainly harder to break into than $250 so called "safes". Just for the record you know the $99 - $200 fireproof home/office safes are actually plastic over fireproofing material. Can cut them in half with a circular saw and a cheap blade. YouTube some to see the ease with which some of these big name brands of small, large, and gun safes can be opened.

Look for a lock and safe company and inquire about used gun safes. They will sometimes have used high quality at a good price.

[fouronesix]

The market is old enough now with enough competition that the safe industry has likely evolved to the point that you get what you pay for, more or less.

Safe in a basement :). Might as well say swimming pool if there is a real flood. And a swimming pool full of caustic soup during/after a fire.

[Mk42gunner]

My ideal safe is a reinforced concrete vault.

Robert

[Maximumbob54]

First, be sure you know what a "safe" actually is and look up what a "residential security locker" is. The vast majority of the gun safes out there are NOT a real "safe" but are just residential security lockers. One of the big differences is a real safe will have plate steel and everything else is measured in sheet metal thickness. Some of the more expensive names do have thicker steel but it's still just sheet metal. And they all use ordinary sheetrock inside for fire protection. Some may have better seals on the doors that are heat reactive but they are all still only sheet metal boxes with drywall liners. And as said above, they seem to think particle board and OSB are all that's needed for shelving to hold multi thousand dollar gun collections. My point in all this is be careful when you plunk down thousands on what is nothing more than a sheet metal drywall box with a cheap door lock on it. They are pretty much only to stop a smash and grab and most any fire in a stick frame home if it burns to the ground the safe is slag just like the walls of the home.

That being said, I bought a Mesa brand gun safe and have been happy enough with it. It cost less than most similar size and options, no it's not US made, and the shelving was easy to replace.

[2ndAmendmentNut]

Thank you for all the comments and advice!

[2ndAmendmentNut]

I have both brands. And only the Sturdy can be considered a true safe. The Liberty is a glorified locker. The Sturdy I bought has every option when it comes to upgrading metal thickness. The Liberty I could put a pickax through.

Anything of real value is in the Sturdy. The Liberty was the best option at it's price point and I was on a budget at the time.

Fire ratings are a joke. Every manufacturer uses different test methods. Take them w/ a grain of salt. A safe buys you time. More metal means more time. My Sturdy has no fire proofing because it's of no concern to me. If you buy based on fire rating you may find it a poor choice if you experience a house fire.

If you look at real safes you will see what real fire proofing consists of. It does not consist of sheet rock. I'd look into Amsec if you are truly concerned about fire proofing.

Would you mind sharing what model Sturdy and Liberty safes you had/have to compare? I have heard the Liberty fat boy line is not to be trusted. Also one quick question on Sturdy safes. Do they have locking lugs on all sides of the door or only the side opposite the hinges?

[2ndAmendmentNut]

I have a liberty best money I ever spent.

house was broken into and they worked on that safe along time. they tried to pry the boor they tried to beat the door. they knocked the tumbler off. which caused the safety pin to drop. which meant the locksmith had to come out to open it and repair it. but the 50 Winchesters and 20 handguns are still mine.

If you don't mind me asking, which model Liberty safe did you have?

[dragon813gt]

Would you mind sharing what model Sturdy and Liberty safes you had/have to compare? I have heard the Liberty fat boy line is not to be trusted. Also one quick question on Sturdy safes. Do they have locking lugs on all sides of the door or only the side opposite the hinges?

The Sturdy is the biggest one they offer w/ every metal upgrade you can purchase. This includes the torch resistant plates. It's a beast. I'm not at home but I believe the dead bolts are only on the sides of the door. There is pretty much no gap between the door and body so you aren't getting a pry bar into it. And the bolts at the top and bottom of door is one of the sales pitches that other companies throw around.

The Liberty is a Cabela's branded Woodsman. Which is their Revere line. 11 gauge body and a S&G mechanical lock which is why I bought it. Thickest metal at it's price point. But still rather thin. I knew the shortcomings of this RSC. But bought it knowing it's limitations. It's enough to stop a casual smash and grab which is why I have it.

[jmort]

This is a most interesting discussion of Sturdy vs. AMSEC.
http://gunsafereviewsguy.com/buyers-guide/best-gun-safe/

[bob208]

it is the franklin model. 5' high.

[BD]

You are pretty much only buying a door and frame when you buy a "gun safe". It's up to you to secure it down and back and to protect the sides, back and top. So, look closely at the door, lock and bolts. 1/4" steel plate, or thicker. S&G or better lock, intumesent door seal and hardened bolts on all four sides. Then you need to build it in to protect it. Nothing is burglar proof, but it's pretty straightforward to add time and trouble to someone trying to get into your gun safe.
I don't think there's a gun safe made under $3,000 that I can't cut the side out of in 2 minutes if I can walk right up to it and go straight to work unconcerned about the noise. Those with sheet metal, (16-18 gauge), sides, backs and tops can be opened like a sardine can in about 30 seconds.

[dragon813gt]

This is a most interesting discussion of Sturdy vs. AMSEC.
http://gunsafereviewsguy.com/buyers-guide/best-gun-safe/

Also has a good short review of Zanotti Armor as well. If their lead time wasn't 15 months when I called them I would have one instead of the Liberty.

[flyingmonkey35]

I have a liberty best money I ever spent.

house was broken into and they worked on that safe along time. they tried to pry the boor they tried to beat the door. they knocked the tumbler off. which caused the safety pin to drop. which meant the locksmith had to come out to open it and repair it. but the 50 Winchesters and 20 handguns are still mine.
Just out of curiosity. Did liberty safe do anything with your story?

[alamogunr]

These threads come up every so often. "Gun Safes" are, as mentioned earlier, really Residential Security Containers. If you want a real safe or something close, look at Graffunder or Brown.

http://www.graffundersafes.com/products/safes-weapon.html

http://www.brownsafe.com/utility-safes.html

I imagine there are others. Compare the weight of the above safes with others. They will make you question whether your floor will support them.

I have a Heritage that I bought about 15 years ago. It is a "Residential Security Container". I just looked at their website. My safe(Residential Security Container is too long) is no longer listed. Curiously, the safe next up in size is listed at the same weight as mine(1075#). Also, the doors now have external hinges which I would prefer. I have had to modify the internal arrangement to accommodate more long guns and the handguns have been moved to a smaller safe that I got from my son when they moved their business.

Although my safe is not secured to the concrete floor in the shop, I lined the floor with lead ingots. There must be at least 500-600 lbs in the bottom. With the contents, the safe must weigh at least a ton.

If I had it to do over and had the funds, I would probably buy one of the higher end safes with more capacity. I'm completely out of space. Today such a safe would probably cost $5K-7K or more depending on cosmetics. I paid $2K for mine.

If I had any advice beyond a safe, I would recommend that the less outsiders know about your guns and their location, the better. I don't talk a great deal about the contents of my safe and plan to add a security system to the house and shop. We are now considered senior citizens and as such are more likely to be targeted for burglary or home invasion.

[jmort]

Also has a good short review of Zanotti Armor as well. If their lead time wasn't 15 months when I called them I would have one instead of the Liberty.

Those do look interesting as I don't want anyone seeing me roll in with a safe or helping me roll in a safe. They make sense.

[dragon813gt]

If you don't need fire protection, or live in an old house w/ limited access like I do they are the perfect solution. They are made from thicker metal than their assembled counterparts. I need yet another one so I may be calling them again.

[RogerDat]

Basement floor can handle the weight, well beyond what wood floor can support, the raised platform of concrete made from 2x6 forms brings floor of safe above level of casual flooding from broken sump pump. If fire puts more than 5.5 inches of water in basement and it remains for long contents might sustain damage which is exactly why one should have insurance that includes a firearms rider.

If the door has enough seam that it opens it can be spread, videos exist online showing the progression from thin wedges to thicker to pry bar that increase the gap to heavy long pry bar. At issue is how well is the door metal able to resist distortion vs how large of a pry bar can be brought to bear. Also if safe can be put on its back where the weight of the thief can be used on the pry bar.

Home security container is a barrier to a thief not a deterrent to a safe cracker. A true safe will stop a thief and slow down someone that comes prepared for a safe or has the time to make use of your own tools. So you really do not want a criminal to know you keep your stash of gold bars and high value firearms in a safe because even a very good safe is vulnerable given time and the right tools.

[Plate plinker]

I have no dog in this discussion, but I looked at good liberties and Browning safes at a local gun show awhile back. The browning now has a locking lug that moves threw the corner for add prying resistance. I am not a Browning nut, but that safe was impressive.

[bob208]

no liberty did not use it in any advertising.

[Elkins45]

Graffunder makes real safes, not just RSCs. Sturdy makes good (but spendy) RSCs. Liberty makes OK RSCs but mostly makes commercials. Point being that Liberty has name recognition but their product is not dramatically better than any of the other quality makers at the same price points.

Somewhere in this thread a comment was made about a safe in the basement being in a swimming pool of nasty chemicals. In the real world it probably doesn't matter. As a fireman friend told me: "you might as well put it in the basement because if you have a real fire it's going to end up there anyway."

[LIMPINGJ]

Another choice for assembly in an existing structure is Bear Safes in OKC.

[fouronesix]

Graffunder makes real safes, not just RSCs. Sturdy makes good (but spendy) RSCs. Liberty makes OK RSCs but mostly makes commercials. Point being that Liberty has name recognition but their product is not dramatically better than any of the other quality makers at the same price points.

Somewhere in this thread a comment was made about a safe in the basement being in a swimming pool of nasty chemicals. In the real world it probably doesn't matter. As a fireman friend told me: "you might as well put it in the basement because if you have a real fire it's going to end up there anyway."

Notwithstanding the cute gotcha comment by the fireman- real world eh? He really doesn't have a stake in the care of anyone's valuables or guns. He makes a living responding to fires and emergencies.

The basement is the coolest and dampest place in a house. A basement may flood because of a broken pipe. It will flood during a real flood or during a fire where water is dumped on the fire. If anyone chooses the basement as the best place for a safe with guns or valuables, no matter to me. Additionally in many houses, just getting a large/heavy safe into a basement is going to be a real trick. In those houses it would be just as easy if not easier to install a small area of support under the first floor location of the safe… not to mention... many houses with basements already have areas on the first floor with solid under pinnings.

[AK Caster]

Just bought my 2nd Cannon....fireproof for 75 minutes with lifetime warranty....it is the 80 gun safe and is well made....The safe was on sale at Tractor Supply....weight 750 pounds....I would like a non press wood rack system...but I am good with wood and will cure the press wood shelves....overall very happy .... would recommend....and it was truly a bear to get into place......Paul:bigsmyl2:

After owning two Cannons I came to the conclusion they are junk, and most likely the main reason they are always on sale at low prices compared to other companies products. An 80 gun safe weighing in at only 750 pounds is a thin shelled metal box.

[starbits]

One thing not mentioned is the lock. I have 2 safes, one combo lock and the other an electronic keypad. I will never ever buy a safe with a electronic lock again. Sometimes it will open and sometimes it won't. The combo lock is slower, but at least it will open when I want it to.

Starbits

[RogerDat]

Or one can have a high and dry building site, finished basement that is climate controlled, partly above grade or walkout along with a battery backup on the sump pump since one does want to protect the finished basement. Or a dirt floor cellar 18 inches above the water table. Safe to say situations are different. House may have a room on a slab, or the whole house might be.

Value of items vs. Investment in protecting those items. Site which enhances protection is one consideration, cost of secure container is another. Then there is insurance costs which will reflect crime risk in your area. May get a discount for a rated safe that a home security device would not get. That might be one way to find out how good the container is - ask your insurance agent how much of a reduction in rates model xyz from blah company will get you. Can get a discount for an alarm system that is considered decent or in the city can get a discount for being close to a fire hydrant. Figure a good safe would warrant a discount since it reduces the chance they will have to pay a claim.

A $2,500 safe to protect $6,000 in contents is a little off unless one has a strong emotional attachment to the contents. Otherwise an extra $10 bucks on the insurance and a modest priced HSC makes more sense. An $800 metal box to protect $15,000 investment seems a little penny wise and pound foolish.

There is no "perfect" answer since each situation is individual and most involve some trade off.

Concrete floor provides really solid anchor, not going to tip it on it's back where it is easy to attack. Even with a come along it can't be moved to give more room for tools. Have increased risk for flooding damage in a basement. Wood framed floor above any accidental water damage but even with floor braces I'm pretty sure a fire will drop a fire weakened safe 8 ft. onto a concrete floor. A thief could do the same with a chain saw from the garage. Assuming he could get the stubborn beast to start....

Even a walk in safe is only as secure as it's weakest wall or roof and the cost only works if you have a really high value collection and still have the money to invest in the walk in vault. Actually plywood interior walls and solid fire door with good locks combined with a collection of safes in the room might work best. Even if a thief breaks into the room they then have to break into multiple safes to clean you out. Unless they have time to do multiple safes they can only get a fraction of the collection.

[alamogunr]

One thing not mentioned is the lock. I have 2 safes, one combo lock and the other an electronic keypad. I will never ever buy a safe with a electronic lock again. Sometimes it will open and sometimes it won't. The combo lock is slower, but at least it will open when I want it to.

Starbits

My safe has the combination lock. I started having trouble opening the safe and I knew that I had turned the dial to the correct points. I posted, in another thread, the trouble I was having and a member here that was knowledgeable about safes clued me in to my problem.

If you spin the dial fast, as I was prone to do, it will cause the combination to slip slightly. My safe combination now is ½ division off. As long as I stop between marks, it opens every time.

I didn't intend it that way, but if someone breaks in the house and finds my combination, they will have as much trouble as I did previous to finding out why.

[2ndAmendmentNut]

Graffunder makes real safes, not just RSCs. Sturdy makes good (but spendy) RSCs. Liberty makes OK RSCs but mostly makes commercials. Point being that Liberty has name recognition but their product is not dramatically better than any of the other quality makers at the same price points.

Would you mind enlightening me on what makes a Graffunder a true safe? Maybe Graffunder's site isn't mobile friendly, but I could not find prices anywhere.

[alamogunr]

You might not want to know.:bigsmyl2:

[dragon813gt]

Would you mind enlightening me on what makes a Graffunder a true safe? Maybe Graffunder's site isn't mobile friendly, but I could not find prices anywhere.

It's a REAL safe. Feel free to call them and they will explain what makes them a real safe. You won't want to hear the cost.

At a minimum a safe needs a TL rating to be a true safe. This is what insurance will require. But even then you are only buying time. Typically 15 or 30 minutes. TL15 and TL30 safes are not cheap. Even better safes are even more money. Better be prepared to spend about $10k to start. Your collection will determine if spending this much is warranted.

[2ndAmendmentNut]

These threads come up every so often. "Gun Safes" are, as mentioned earlier, really Residential Security Containers. If you want a real safe or something close, look at Graffunder or Brown.

http://www.graffundersafes.com/products/safes-weapon.html

http://www.brownsafe.com/utility-safes.html

I imagine there are others. Compare the weight of the above safes with others. They will make you question whether your floor will support them.

I have a Heritage that I bought about 15 years ago. It is a "Residential Security Container". I just looked at their website. My safe(Residential Security Container is too long) is no longer listed. Curiously, the safe next up in size is listed at the same weight as mine(1075#). Also, the doors now have external hinges which I would prefer. I have had to modify the internal arrangement to accommodate more long guns and the handguns have been moved to a smaller safe that I got from my son when they moved their business.

Although my safe is not secured to the concrete floor in the shop, I lined the floor with lead ingots. There must be at least 500-600 lbs in the bottom. With the contents, the safe must weigh at least a ton.

If I had it to do over and had the funds, I would probably buy one of the higher end safes with more capacity. I'm completely out of space. Today such a safe would probably cost $5K-7K or more depending on cosmetics. I paid $2K for mine.

If I had any advice beyond a safe, I would recommend that the less outsiders know about your guns and their location, the better. I don't talk a great deal about the contents of my safe and plan to add a security system to the house and shop. We are now considered senior citizens and as such are more likely to be targeted for burglary or home invasion.

Thank you for the reply. I really like the look of the Brown safes. Either way I'll save my pennies for a true safe rather than an RSC.

[Elkins45]

Would you mind enlightening me on what makes a Graffunder a true safe? Maybe Graffunder's site isn't mobile friendly, but I could not find prices anywhere.

As Dragon said, a real safe is something that is UL rated for tool attack. No "gun safe" has such a rating. TL15 and TL30 ratings indicate they can resist an attack for that much time with tools actually on the safe. If the tester puts down the wrecking bar the clock pauses until he starts up again.

[2ndAmendmentNut]

Are there any Brown safe owners out there that can chime in? I am really liking the look of their "utility" safes but am having limited success finding any 3rd party reviews. I have encountered a few scathing reviews on Brown's luxury safe line, but most of the complaints have nothing to do with the security, but rather cosmetic issues caused by the shipping company.