Cast Performance Boolits question

[runningbear44]

Hello Gentlemen,

Thank you for allowing me to join your forum. I'm new to reloading and and working on my very first load. I've got a couple questions I need help with and this seemed like a place where I'd get some help.

I'm loading .44 mag with Cast Performance 300 gr wfngc. Grizzly Cartridge gave me some info to use Starline brass, 18-20 gr H110, & CCI 350 mag primer.

I have two questions:

1. The Boolits have a crimp groove but I can't get the company to give me an OAL. Does it matter of just took crimp into groove and that takes care of OAL?

2. Many say the Lee Factory Crimp die will swag the Boolits but the .430 Boolits diameter on the Cast Performance doesn't seem affected according to my tests. Any advice?

Thanks.

[Thumbcocker]

I have no experience with the FCD so I can't help you there. As to crimping standard practice is to use the crimp groove. You might want to look at similar boolits as pictured in loading manuals for guidance. The big thing is how much space the boolit takes up in the case. You do not mention what you want to load for so that may be a factor. The .44 magnum is an incredibly versatile cartridge.

[jmort]

Overall length can be found in reloading guides or powder manufacturer site. Load up a dummy round at the crimp groove and see if it within specifications, it probably will be.

The Lee handgun FCD, which is what you have, can swage down over SAAMI spec bullets. Cast bullets are specified at .358" but many guns shoot better with over/under spec bullets.
For revolvers I like to use the Redding Profile crimp die. Try the FCD out and see what happens. It may not even touch the case or swage the bullet you have.

[runningbear44]

I'm loading these for a Ruger Super Blackhawk with a 7.5 barrel. We hunt bear with Hounds. Shots in close distances 5-15 yards. Trying to duplicate factory ammo that was once sold by Federal but no longer available.

I can push the Boolits completely through the factory crimp die with my fingers so I'm thinking it couldn't possibly swag them. Right? Wrong?

[runningbear44]

Overall length can be found in reloading guides or powder manufacturer site. Load up a dummy round at the crimp groove and see if it within specifications, it probably will be.

The Lee handgun FCD, which is what you have, can swage down over SAAMI spec bullets. Cast bullets are specified at .358" but many guns shoot better with over/under spec bullets.
For revolvers I like to use the Redding Profile crimp die. Try the FCD out and see what happens. It may not even touch the case or swage the bullet you have.

jmort,

I did a dummy round with the Lee FCD. It's seems fine to me but I've read so much stuff on the internet about it swagging Cast bullets that it's got me spooked that I'm missing something.

[Guesser]

I've loaded many thousands of the CP product in many cartridges, that's when CP was in Riverton Wy. and I could drive to the plant in a couple hours. Use the crimp groove and you shouldn't find any need for the Lee crimp die. The magazine format Hodgdon load guides have data using the CP style bullets. H-110 is good and the 350 primer is a plus. I know the bullets are expensive but you need to load and test, load and test. Good luck and good shooting!!

[stubert]

If loading for a Ruger, set your oal at 1.7"with 20-21 grains of 296 or 110. It will be a thumper. That is my load 20.8 gr. 296, mag. primer, starline cases, oal 1.7, only difference is I am loading the Lee 430-310 gc.

[RobS]

The straight wall Lee FCD's such as what you are using can swage down the diameter of cast boolit depending on the die itself. I've worked with a few different 45 ACP FCD's and they would all swage down a softer .452 boolit to .451 or smaller with two of the dies working things down to .450. These dies were designed for jacketed bullets. The 45 Colt FCD I own is just fine and with a seated .452-.454 boolit with mild flare on the case nothing even touches the carbide ring when entering the die. It just depends on the die. Also I've noted that a hard boolit can spring back very similar to lube/sizing harder boolits vs softer ones. As an example the same lube/sizing die (lets say a .452 die) with an as cast .454, 12 BHN boolit will size differently than a .454, 25 BHN boolit when each though the .452 sizing/lube die.

[44man]

That is a good boolit. I always bought the 320 gr.
With the 320 and 310 Lee, I use 21.5 gr of 296 but I use only a Fed 150 standard primer in all .44 loads.
Make sure there are no dogs on the other side of a bear, you will not stop that boolit.
If boolits slide through the Redding crimp die, use it and crimp in the crimp groove, ignore OAL stuff. I would not use a FCD.
I roll crimp with my seat dies, as I seat. No need for a separate step.

[pmer]

I second doing away with the Lee FCD. I have one but haven't used it for years. Use your data for 19-20 grains and OAL isn't as big of a deal because internal case volume based from the crimp grove to the base of the boolit is what they are thinking of. I would seat and crimp separately this way you can watch for lead shavings (or ring) ending up in the crimp grove. Seat till the edge of the case is near the top side of the crimp grove for all of your rounds then adjust your seater die down to crimp the case to the boolit with the seater stem backed out. Those shavings can end up in the bore and cause leading and accuracy troubles. At least till you get a better feel for loading process.

If you see lead build up there is a product in the grocery store cleaning section called Choreboy. It's a copper scouring pad, you can take a chunk off the pad and wrap it around a brush and quickly remove lead build up.

Cylinder pressure - if your fired cases come out hard you should back down your charges. If most of the 6 fall or drop out you could maybe go up some.

Lastly welcome and hoping to see some bear pictures in the hunting section.

[reddog81]

I don't think the .44 Mag Lee FCD would resize the case like the FCD does on 9mm, 45 ACP, 40 S&W. The Lee seating/crimp die I use for does not resize the case. The bullet is seated and a roll crimp is applied during the final bit of travel. The die does not touch the case other than to apply the roll crimp. As far as a know this is how any Lee die would operate for revolver cartridges.

[Hickok]

I'm loading these for a Ruger Super Blackhawk with a 7.5 barrel. We hunt bear with Hounds. Shots in close distances 5-15 yards. Trying to duplicate factory ammo that was once sold by Federal but no longer available.

I can push the Boolits completely through the factory crimp die with my fingers so I'm thinking it couldn't possibly swag them. Right? Wrong?You wont having any problem with that boolit on bear. The Keith 250 SWC @ 1300fps will blow clear through black bears shoulders and out the other side. Have a friend who wades in on bear at point blank range when hunting with dogs and he has only recovered one Keith boolit. He shot the bear head on near the neck and found the boolit under the hide in a rear ham.

[runningbear44]

I talked to a customer service guy at Lee. He said the only way the FCD would swag a bullet is if it was above normal specs. So, with limited knowledge I I'm not sure what the trouble that so many on the internet are pointing out.

Thanks for all the responses & info.

[jmort]

A couple things bear repeating in this thread. There are two types of Lee FCD, the "handgun" dies which can swage a cast bullet and the rifle FCDs which have a collet and will not do so. As an example, there was a thread recently about a "universal" sized 9mm cast bullet, and some were going with .358 for their guns. The Lee 9mm FCD would probably swage that bullet down as 9mm "spec" is .355"
So it just depends. As noted above, revolver FCDs seem to be less of an issue. Semi-auto FCD more so. Some people just avoid them with cast or altogether. If the FCD is not squeezing your dummy round, you will have no problem with it. But that is a factory cast bullet. If you start casting, you may find that a wider bullet works better in a particular gun, and then the FCD may be a problem.

[glockky]

The lee factory crimp die works great once you knock the carbide sizer ring out of the bottom of the die. It's been a great solution for loading .434 bullets in 44 magnum. My redding profile crimp dies work great as long as your only a couple thousandths above jacketed diameter bullets.

[rintinglen]

I have loaded tens of thousands of 38 Specials using the Lee FCD and a fair few 44 mags. I have not had any problems, and consider it essential if you are loading untrimmed, mixed head case ammunition. I have also used it on 9mm, though there I can't give it an unqualified thumbs up. The tapered 9mm case doesn't seem to work as well. I doubt you will experience any problems in your 44 mag loading due to use of an FCD.
However, if all your brass is of the same manufacturer and length, you do not need an FCD. The standard crimp die that comes with your die set will work just fine. The FCD lets you use brass of varying length without the necessity of trimming.

[runningbear44]

The man I spoke with at Grizzly Cartridge (Cast Performance) said 18-20gr of H110. But it seems some folks who post loads on the internet go as high as 22.5gr. Would those of you with experience start lower & work up or just go with 20gr?

[runningbear44]

Well I loaded the 1st batch with 19gr. Feeling sort of accomplished to have fired the first six rounds I ever loaded. Ha-ha. I've been getting things together for about 5 months. So, I'll get serious and do some fine tuning now.

[wv109323]

The rule of thumb is to back off 10% and work your way up, BUT Winchester with WW296 powder cautions you not to reduce loads. Correct me or check me out H-110 and WW296 are the same powder sold by two different companies.
Winchester advises Magnum Primers with this powder, one of a few that Winchester uses magnum primers with. I would stay with Magnum primers.
I would find load data with this powder with this bullet. The depth of the bullet(OAL) in the case will affect pressures. Most data should use the crimping groove depth and I would use the crimping groove if the cartridge will fit the chamber.
No one has mentioned this about the crimp. However you do it you want to make sure the bullets will not move when the pistol is fired. If the crimp is insufficient the bullet will move and may not allow the cylinder to rotate.(Another reason to use the crimping groove) That is something I would not want when shooting a bear.

[44man]

Working 296 with--AGAIN, a standard primer. I got sad groups then they tightened as I worked up to 21.5 gr and then they started to open again. They opened at the same rate as they closed up so 21.5 gr is where I am, never more. I do not need more velocity.
There is never a need to go past accuracy in the .44.
Now a 265 RD uses 22 gr and my 330 gr uses 21 gr. A 240 Hornady SIL bullet wants 23.5 while a 240 XTP wants 24. A 300 XTP is best with 20.5 gr.
There is no need whatsoever for a mag primer in a .44 with any load.
I suppose I have done a thousand primer tests over the years. I use what I use because it works.
Crimp will NEVER save you, means so little it is a joke. A thousand crimp tests have been done too. Get tension right and just use a normal roll crimp to reach the bottom of the crimp groove.
No proof has ever been shown you need to crimp separate. I can't prove it at all.
If you have a FCD that makes the stabs in the brass, you ruin a boolit on exit. If a carbide ring, find a field where you don't hit anything when you throw it. A Lee seat die should do all you need.

[runningbear44]

I experimented more with the FCD and it was shaving brass around the case mouth so I'm scraping the use of it. I dinked around with the seating die and I think I've figured out how to get it right now. I'm sure enjoying this.

[blackthorn]

Quote "I talked to a customer service guy at Lee. He said the only way the FCD would swag a bullet is if it was above normal specs. So, with limited knowledge I I'm not sure what the trouble that so many on the internet are pointing out."


So, here is the thing about the Lee FCD (as I understand it). Mr. Lee makes two (2) different FCD's. One is for rifles and it works very well. The other is for handgun, and it will work very well also IF you are using it with factory, jacketed ammunition! It will likely also work very well IF your firearm specifications are similar/same as those specified for jacketed ammunition, BUT keep in mind that the cast bullets we use will normally (often) require a diameter that is one to several thousandths larger than their jacketed brothers. The handgun FCD is designed to size the whole cartridge to SAAMI specifications (jacketed rounds), so if your cast bullet is larger than a jacketed bullet it will be swaged down. Further, the FCD will swage the whole round and the brass case will spring-back more than the cast lead projectile, leaving it loose in the case neck (reducing or destroying tension). With cast, I use the rifle FCD regularly, but the handgun FCD is reserved for fixing ammunition that for one reason or another will not chamber.

[waco]

Do what I did. Chuck said Lee Factory Crimp die in a lathe and remove the carbide ring. BANG!!!! All better now.:bigsmyl2:

[1bluehorse]

There's a lot of BS information around about the FCD, the one with the carbide ring. It will do no harm to a reload IF the carbide ring doesn't touch the loaded round as it's inserted in the die. If the loaded round DOES touch the carbide ring then the die COULD be swaging the cast bullet and or at least be causing some loss of case neck tension. Easy way to check (obviously) is to try it with one of your reloads. OR, you can do as I have done in the past and measure the ring with a pin gauge, then measure the thickness of your brass, double that figure, then measure the dia of your bullet. If the brass measurement plus your bullet measurement together are the same or more than the dia of the carbide ring, it may cause you issues. I can use a Lee FCD with my 45 colt because the brass and bullet measure a few thousandths smaller than the carbide ring. (it touches nothing) I can't (or won't) use it with my 44mag or my 357 loads because they're larger than the "ring".... the long and short of it, if the finished round doesn't touch the ring, you're good, (then it's just a crimp die) if it does touch I'd use something else. That's the story with this die. The only caliber I use one for is 9mm. (using it for my CCW ammo I know the rounds will chamber and accuracy isn't AS critical at 25yds or less) I haven't tried the collet style pistol crimp die, but used correctly (as any die) it would seem to be a good alternative if a person wanted to seat and crimp in separate steps. My normal procedure is to just use the seat die in one step. Some folks find this to be to difficult so they opt for "specialty" dies of some sort.

[44man]

You can spend out of your mind and need a FCD or an "M" die. Forget it. it is so easy to make a gun shoot with a good die set. some have wrong expanders but you need to learn at the bench. Stare at what you do and think some. God gave you a brain, not a lead to be pulled with.

[pmer]

I experimented more with the FCD and it was shaving brass around the case mouth so I'm scraping the use of it. I dinked around with the seating die and I think I've figured out how to get it right now. I'm sure enjoying this.

Good job! You did right by following the manufactures info and starting out with 19 grains. Not all 300 grain bullets are the same because the crimp grove can and will be in different places. If the grove is lower more of the bullet will stick out of the case which provides room for more powder. Now its a matter of shooting and letting the gun tell you what it wants. If your Ruger likes cast and you have good reloading process it can easily go hundreds of rounds before it needs a serious cleaning.

Shoot some tree stumps and water jugs etc to build some confidence in your loads and you'll see for yourself how hard it is to stop that ammo you made.

[Lloyd Smale]

I too wont use a lee fcd. You swage down the bullet and loose case tension. I do however about allways seat and crimp in different operations. What I do is buy an extra standard seating die and take the seating plug out and use it just to crimp.

[runningbear44]

Good job! You did right by following the manufactures info and starting out with 19 grains. Not all 300 grain bullets are the same because the crimp grove can and will be in different places. If the grove is lower more of the bullet will stick out of the case which provides room for more powder. Now its a matter of shooting and letting the gun tell you what it wants. If your Ruger likes cast and you have good reloading process it can easily go hundreds of rounds before it needs a serious cleaning.

Shoot some tree stumps and water jugs etc to build some confidence in your loads and you'll see for yourself how hard it is to stop that ammo you made.

Thanks for the encouraging words.

[44man]

Way too much is made about too little. All you need is even case tension from one case to another and just enough crimp to hold under recoil. The powder charge depends on where accuracy is.
I have found my loads for every caliber will still shoot best in every gun. I never found any that needed different except the S&W that does not like heavy boolits because of parts inertia. Twist is right though. Somewhere around 265 to 270 is top for them in .44. More leads to double strikes on primers or turning cylinders. Easy fix to go heavy but factory springs can be wrong. Still stupid accurate and my RD 265 load that works in a Ruger is still best for the S&W. So was my 240 gr bullet loads.
You can pull hair over all kinds of stuff but it is real simple. Just a die change can bring in BR shooting. I tossed my RCBS dies and will not buy Lee or lyman once I found Hornady dies work.
I actually have custom BR dies for the .44 with a collar sizer. Pain to use. I have gone Hornady for all I load for. You do not know how important your dies are. Make brass right and stare into a one hole group.

[runningbear44]

I'm moved up to 20gr and crimmped with the regular seating die.

[SSGOldfart]

I talked to a customer service guy at Lee. He said the only way the FCD would swag a bullet is if it was above normal specs. So, with limited knowledge I I'm not sure what the trouble that so many on the internet are pointing out.

Thanks for all the responses & info.
Out of round home cast bullets they try to fix the problems with a FCD. You shouldn't have that problem with your hard cast bullets

[44man]

I'm moved up to 20gr and crimmped with the regular seating die.
Get rid of the mag primer and work up.

[SSGOldfart]

I'm moved up to 20gr and crimmped with the regular seating die.
Now your on track looks like you've treed that 44 load good luck and don't forget the photos

[leadman]

What most people do not know is that the SAAMI spec for a lead bullet in the 44 mag. is .432". Other than cast there are no bullets made to these specs that I know of.
The ideal situation is for the revolvers cylinder throats to be the same or slightly larger than the barrel. The OAL length given in the manuals is what that shooter had used when he loaded the ammo and did the pressure testing. Many revolvers can use a boolit that gives a longer OAL and thus more room for powder. The S&W 29 has a shorter cylinder than the Blackhawk.
An example of what a heavy boolit in the 44 mag will do is the elk I shot at 75 yards with my "plinking load" of 24grs of WC680 behind the Lee 310gr boolit. The velocity with this load was just over 1,100 fps and it went thru the elk shot from the side.
I would follow the good advice given here, especially 44 man's.

[1bluehorse]

I too wont use a lee fcd. You swage down the bullet and loose case tension. I do however about allways seat and crimp in different operations. What I do is buy an extra standard seating die and take the seating plug out and use it just to crimp.



This is also what I do if I want to seat, crimp, in two steps and I have the space on the die plate. In fact this is what I'm doing now with some 45 colt loads I'm currently loading. Using Hornady Cowboy dies with an "extra" RCBS seater die with plug removed for crimp.

[runningbear44]

153793 pic practice

[runningbear44]

153795

[SSGOldfart]

153793 pic practice
Good start but where's the Hounds????

[SSGOldfart]

Sir if you don't mind where are you located? We used to run bear with hounds in East Tennessee and WNC, when I was growing up many many moons ago.:popcorn:

[runningbear44]

153812

Would you believe east TN & WNC?

[pmer]

I'd imagine the excitement level is pretty high running bears with dogs. I've never done that. Would a bear challenge one or two dogs? I suppose you can cross property lines in process? Do the dogs stay together and chase one bear if they find two bears? Sorry for so many questions but do you start them from bait stations?

[runningbear44]

I'd imagine the excitement level is pretty high running bears with dogs. I've never done that. Would a bear challenge one or two dogs? I suppose you can cross property lines in process? Do the dogs stay together and chase one bear if they find two bears? Sorry for so many questions but do you start them from bait stations?

Yes sir, its a lot of fun. Sometimes dogs trailing will end up on separate bears. Baiting is illegal in Tennessee.