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View Full Version : 457122 HP - HP Question (yo Buckshot!)



Old Ironsights
04-12-2008, 04:58 PM
I cast up a few 457122s from my new mould the other day and was looking at the HP.

It seems really small - percentage of meplat wise - compared to, say my 358156.

Why wouldn't I want a wider HP in this boolit? Maybe not "devistator" wide, but more like 11/64 instead of the factory 1/8?

Anybody played with the optimal pin size?

Buckshot - I need to send this mould to you to get a FP pin anyway after I decide whether or not a bigger HP pin would be appropriate.

Ricochet
04-12-2008, 05:00 PM
I'd think it'd depend on the alloy and velocity.

The old Gould boolit's worked pretty well for a lot of folks over the years, as is.

Old Ironsights
04-12-2008, 05:03 PM
Wasn't the Gould designed for pure PB though? I'd think WW or 50/50 WW/pb would have a harder time of such a small HP...

Bret4207
04-12-2008, 05:56 PM
I made a pin for my 457122. I was going for more of a flat nose and ended up with a 1/8" dimple 1/8" deep. Using straight WW at about 1700 fps I got plenty of mushrooming. Try it and see.

Old Ironsights
04-12-2008, 06:01 PM
Hm...

I just checked the "HP" on some Win 300 SJHPs and they are essentially 11/64 equlateral cones.

rockrat
04-12-2008, 07:23 PM
Didn't it used to come with a larger pin?
I think I read somewhere in one of the old "The fouling shot" magazines, that Frank Marshall talked about shooting at old drums they would float down the river. The boolit would accept a 22 blank and they would put a gallon or so, of gasoline, in the drum and when shot, it would make a nice fireball.[smilie=1:

45 2.1
04-12-2008, 07:32 PM
Hollow point pin size depends a lot on alloy and impact velocity. For slow handgun cartridges, a nose wall thickness of 0.045" and half length depth will give you all the expansion you can stand. The original 457122 HP pin diameter and depth is optimal for the capabilities of the 4570 cartridge, in any rifle you choose depending on alloy. It is very easy to blow them up if you want to.

floodgate
04-12-2008, 07:41 PM
Rockrat:

That wasn't the #457122 - at least not with its original HP pin. But there were some Ideal .50 caliber boolit moulds made for the .50-70 that would take a .22 BP blank back in the 1890s, and no doubt 457122's and others were also converted to do the same.

Just the thing to put in a tubular magazine - NOT!!!

Fg

Curtis44
04-13-2008, 08:37 PM
No worries getting the gould to expand at any reasonable velocity. Push it too hard and the front half will blow off but the rear half will still pass thru a deer from about any angle! It makes a devastating wound. I used to load it to about 1750 fs, but my current load is about 1500fs (23g 2400 + dacron filler). It shoots very well in my marlin 95 and 2 remington rolling blocks and is instant death on deer. Alloy is 2.5/2.5/90 Antimony/tin/lead. Lube is lyman BP Gold. I have tried harder and softer alloys but this seems to work the best with smokeless and my loads. I also use a duplex load of 5g 4759+54FG+ two .060 card wads with a Gould cast of 1/20 alloy. Results on deer are all anyone could ask for. If there is a better deer round that the 45/70 with the gould HP, I havent seen it yet!

Old Ironsights
04-13-2008, 09:10 PM
Well, I'll have to take your word for it &/or hunt deer someplace else other than IN... I can't use the .45-70 here...

But then, my .357 is plenty deadly for that.

Thanks for the input. It just seemed really small - especially after casting up 350 358156-HPs...

I'll leave it as is and just get a Flat Pin to go with it.

BTW: I'm not as fancy when it comes to alloy. I've got 2 options: WW & PB and variations therein. How does 3 to 1 WW/pb sound? I think it's about BHN 11.

Ricochet
04-13-2008, 09:54 PM
Personally I'd reverse that to 3 Pb: 1WW and heat treat it. Might even go lower on the WW. 1:5 works well. YMMV. I've got lots of pure lead and few WW.

beagle
04-13-2008, 10:37 PM
I have three different 457122s. The HP pinm on all three measure .140" and one's a bevel base and the other two are PB. I had a 457122HP with a .125" pin once. It was too small for me. Maybe that's not the original pin or someone's turned it down???? I'll bet buckshot can make you a .140" pin for it really quick./beagle

Old Ironsights
04-14-2008, 09:12 AM
Personally I'd reverse that to 3 Pb: 1WW and heat treat it. Might even go lower on the WW. 1:5 works well. YMMV. I've got lots of pure lead and few WW.

Thanks for the tip. I'm kind of in the same boat right now.

However, on another thread I was told that even 50/50 won't harden up when water dropped and would lead badly (in .357)

Maybe I'm just getting things all confused. I AM relatively inexperienced (though not "new") to casting...

Ricochet
04-14-2008, 09:36 AM
However, on another thread I was told that even 50/50 won't harden up when water dropped and would lead badly (in .357)Not true at all. Like I said above, small amounts of wheelweights like 15% will harden up pure lead considerably. Have to wait a week or two to see near-maximum hardening. Metals Handbook says that 1% antimonial lead's hardness won't stabilize for a year or so. (Wheelweights are in the neighborhood of 4%, with considerable variation.) Higher levels of alloy respond much faster to cold aging.

leftiye
04-14-2008, 03:01 PM
I tend to prefer shallower conical hollow points over the deep (to the front driving bands)straight ones of yesteryear. I've read posts here about the older design forming a mushroom, breaking it off, and forming another mushroom (and so on?). I want to form less of a mushroom, something like a mediumly (?) mushroomed wadcutter, and not lose it. Whatever you try it will work at some velocity and fail to open at lower velocities, while shedding the mushroom at higher velocities. All you can do is find that velocity where it works and try to have the boolit traveling at that speed when it collides with Mr. Deer (or?).

A recent thread here about shooting sheep with .50 and .475 revolters and not getting sufficient penetration exposes the situation that at the opening velocity for soft lead and major mushrooms (1300 fps) even those monster guns don't have enough sectional density, and energy at that speed to penetrate deeply enough. The exponential resistance of the tissue that occurs with these huge caliber boolits results in the mushroom being counter productive. Unless you can find a tougher alloy (maybe lead with 5 -10 % tin and some copper?) that will not fly apart at higher velocity impacts so that there is more energy available, you are better off shooting hard cast (and faster) and getting oodles of penetration. Much as I hate that route!