PDA

View Full Version : Myths and falsehoods in Casting



Hickok
11-12-2015, 09:05 AM
Might be of interest to all of us caster's if we could post some of the dubious and outright "untruths" we have personally run into and that caused us leaded bores, casting problems, reloading problems, poor accuracy etc, when in pursuit of our hobby.

Advice we read or took that was pure "bull manure" when it comes to our the cast boolit endeavors. And let's keep it informative and civil so we can all benefit from differing experiences we all have had.


I will start with a myth that caused me problems with accuracy and leading when I started with casting many years ago;
"You must size your cast boolits to groove diameter in revolvers." Some writers put this out as a truth, and it gave me big problems in my handguns when I was a novice to casting.


As we now know, it is best to size a boolit to fit the chamber throats of a revolver. And if the throats are smaller than the groove diameter, it usually, but NOT always, hinders cast boolit accuracy and leading to some extent.

As I said in another post, I believe reading some of Mike Venturino's early articles first got me sizing to throat diameters in revolvers and greatly improved my results.

Maven
11-12-2015, 09:45 AM
The following aren't "myths," but are contrary to the conventional wisdom about CB's:

(1) For best accuracy in rifles, the CB must engage the rifling. My Marlin #336 .45-70 hasn't heard this and is very accurate when CB's are seated to 2.55" OAL. The only time I depart from this is when I try to get 70gr. FFg into that case, which means I have to load the rifle one at a time.

(2) For best accuracy in rifles, a bore riding CB, e.g., Lyman/NOE #314299, the bullet nose must fit and ride the bore. My Finnish Nagant (Sako) Model 39 is very accurate, but #314299, even with its .3035" nose isn't marked by the rifling even when the bore is slugged from breech to muzzle. Ditto my Shaw barreled 8 x 57mm Mauser with the Lee 175gr. >323" bore riding design.

In short, it pays to experiment with bullet designs, diameters, and seating depth/OAL.

Ola
11-12-2015, 10:35 AM
My personal favorites are the "you will get leading..

-If you shoot lead bullets"
-if the bullet isn't made out of pure lino"
-etc

rond
11-12-2015, 10:42 AM
9mm doesn't like lead boolits.

flyingmonkey35
11-12-2015, 10:49 AM
You will ruin your barrel.
PC acts like sand paper.
PC the paint will melt in the barrel.


Cast can never be as accurate as fmj. / deadly etc..

EMC45
11-12-2015, 11:10 AM
I would add....... "never say never" and also don't accept everything you see here or in magazines in regards to casting as gospel truth. I don't say that to deride any members here, but his gun may be different than your gun or her gun etc. Also applies to techniques- What I or you do may not work for everyone else.

I have experimented with heat ranges in smelting/casting, lube recipes, seating depths, powder/primer combinations, gun/load combinations etc. This site has been more precious than gold to me in that regard, however you WILL be told at times (sometimes not gently) your info is bad or won't work. See for yourself. That is the beauty of this hobby and this site. I like dispelling myths and other's opinions and offering solid evidence to the contrary.

Bula
11-12-2015, 01:12 PM
(I don't recommend lead at over 900 FPS)

This is from a well know reloading website. I will say this, that was definately the case when I was buying cast boolits frior to learning. Even .38 spl level loads would lead my bore up something aweful. This was with several of the more 'famous' lead bullet producers.

newcastter
11-12-2015, 01:28 PM
This is my all time favorite that tends to rear its head every couple of years. Myth. You can't shoot lead out of a glock, its hexagonal rifling will cause leading and turn the barrel to a smoothbore eventually causing a blow up.

petroid
11-12-2015, 01:34 PM
"You can't shoot lead out of an AR15. You will ruin your gun."

Mk42gunner
11-12-2015, 02:14 PM
Myth-- "Hard lead is better." The big trouble with this one is that nobody has a definite definition of the word hard. It seems to make sense; everyone know that gilding metal is harder than lead, and it goes through a barrel fine.

Myth-- "Hard lubes are better." I'm not saying there are no good hard lubes, but most of the benefit I have seen from them is they stay in the grooves during shipping.

Myth-- "Wheel Weights are dirty, bullets made from them will ruin your barrel."

On the Glock polygon rifling and lead issue, I like to point out that the Whitworth rifle of Confederate sniping fame had a hex (polygon) form of rifling and it has an outstanding reputation for accuracy.

Robert

Hardcast416taylor
11-12-2015, 02:20 PM
"You might as well pour sand down your gun barrel if you use wheelweights"!Robert

Kraschenbirn
11-12-2015, 02:59 PM
"You shouldn't shoot cast bullets in that Garand (or any other gas-operated semi-auto) 'cause the lead will crud up your gas port."

The last time I heard this one, I was in the process of policing up the pile of 30-06 brass from in front of my slot on the firing line...192 rounds, to be precise, that had fired and cycled without a bobble.

Bill

Blackwater
11-12-2015, 05:11 PM
I think Maven hit on the biggest one. We can go by "conventional wisdom," and what may work in most guns, but unless and until you TRY something, you really don't know anything at all. It might or might not work.

This board has been a real boon to me, and explained many things I'd seen and really didn't understand, but I kept trying stuff until I found something that worked, and that's still a great way to learn how to cast and shoot boolits. Most of us are "time challenged," and in that circumstance, it's just good sense to abide by the advice here, but NEVER assume that it'll work everywhere, all the time, in every gun. Strange things happen in all phases of shooting, and casting and shooting boolits is no exception.

paul h
11-12-2015, 06:25 PM
A cast bullet will lead if driven over XXXX fps.

A gas check is needed if velocities are over XXXX fps.

Hard cast bullets are needed if velocities are over XXXX fps.

Pretty much any time I've seen an absolute stated regarding cast bullets I find it isn't completely true, it's only true for the person making it in their limited experience of that paticular gun, bullet, lube, powder etc.

Tailhunter
11-12-2015, 07:20 PM
Even the smallest drop of water hitting hot lead will cause an explosion.

alamogunr
11-12-2015, 07:30 PM
Even the smallest drop of water hitting hot lead will cause an explosion.

This one I don't plan to test. Too many variables. Past experience says that would be tempting fate to do it on purpose.

paul h
11-12-2015, 08:03 PM
Lead is 11.36 times denser than water, which means water will float on top of lead. When a water drop encounters a surface of 700-800 degrees it will bounce around on a cushion of steam.

Now, if you water water trapped say between a wheel weight clip and a wheel weight and drop it into a pot of molten lead, the tinsel fairy will visit you. Of if say you water drop your bullets, get a drop of water in one of your mold's cavities and don't hear it skittering around in the cavity and fill the cavity with molten lead you'll be greated with a pop and the tinsel fairy will emerge from the sprue hole post haste.

One should take all suitable safety precautions when handling molten metal, but one should also should understand the physics of the dangers at hand.

Mal Paso
11-12-2015, 08:30 PM
You will save money. :lol:

Wolfer
11-12-2015, 08:41 PM
You will save money. :lol:

This is the biggest myth.

s mac
11-12-2015, 09:23 PM
You will save money. :lol:

That get my vote. This is a poll isn't it?

45-70 Chevroner
11-12-2015, 09:36 PM
This is the biggest myth.

I don't think that's a myth at all. If I had shot as much factory ammo (��) as I have my cast loads, well you know the rest. Of course I wouldn't have, so I guess the myth holds true.

MaryB
11-13-2015, 12:11 AM
Heard at my LGS: Women can't cast boolits as I was handing the owner 1,000 .451 cast boolits... guy asked if my husband made them and I said no, I made them. Look on his face was priceless and the store owner started laughing so hard he had to sit down!

Mica_Hiebert
11-13-2015, 12:52 AM
Even the smallest drop of water hitting hot lead will cause an explosion. ive heard coww sizzle when adding them to a pot of molten lead... makes me pee my pants!

1johnlb
11-13-2015, 12:58 AM
You will save money. :lol:

Thats not a myth, that's my sales pitch to the wife.:popcorn:

Leadmelter
11-13-2015, 01:32 AM
Myth: Casting is dangerous. Reply: Only for the ill formed.
Myth: Why don you lead bullets lead your barrel? Reply: I make them myself so they don't.

Leadmelter
MI

retread
11-13-2015, 01:59 AM
You will save money. :lol:

I think I need to respond to that with RED ink!

MtGun44
11-13-2015, 02:11 AM
Myth:
HARD cast is necessary to prevent leading.........

Fact:
Fit is king, hardness is almost entirely optional.

Catshooter
11-13-2015, 02:14 AM
"Dip one corner of the mould into the melt to pre-heat it." Endless frustration for me with that one: hurrah for the hot plate!

Any particular caliber rifle or pistol's bore is ____ without measuring it. Like, the .357 mag is .357 when I've had some that ran from .355 (barely) to almost .360.

Women can't cast? That's a new one for me Mary. Lord save us.


Cat

Mica_Hiebert
11-13-2015, 02:32 AM
"Dip one corner of the mould into the melt to pre-heat it." Endless frustration for me with that one: hurrah for the hot plate!

Cat


THIS!!!!! What a nice 10 lb weight you got there! double handles and all!

warf73
11-13-2015, 05:41 AM
"Dip one corner of the mould into the melt to pre-heat it." Endless frustration for me with that one: hurrah for the hot plate!

Been dipping the corners for almost 2 decades now, not saying a hot plate isn't great for preheating a mold. I've no room on the casting bench for one.

fivegunner
11-13-2015, 05:53 AM
You only need one mold:bigsmyl2:

Hickok
11-13-2015, 08:54 AM
"When casting for rifles, you should use pure linotype alloy."

This half truth kept me away from casting boolits in my rifles for many years. Gun writers seemed to pick this one up from another writer and keep repeating it over and over.

There may be a need of linotype in some high velocity loads, but it is certainly not a "must have" ingredient in most rifle casting.

robg
11-13-2015, 09:59 AM
mal paso hit the nail on the head.[smilie=s:

alamogunr
11-13-2015, 11:13 AM
"When casting for rifles, you should use pure linotype alloy."

This half truth kept me away from casting boolits in my rifles for many years. Gun writers seemed to pick this one up from another writer and keep repeating it over and over.

There may be a need of linotype in some high velocity loads, but it is certainly not a "must have" ingredient in most rifle casting.

Mike V. might have contributed to that. I think he uses linotype for everything since I have read that he probably has more lino than most of us have WW. When I first started casting, I read a lot and most articles recommended lino. I almost bought some from an advertiser in The Fouling Shot that was located in Canada. At that time it was less than $1 per lb.

Mal Paso
11-13-2015, 12:08 PM
Mike V. might have contributed to that. I think he uses linotype for everything since I have read that he probably has more lino than most of us have WW. When I first started casting, I read a lot and most articles recommended lino. I almost bought some from an advertiser in The Fouling Shot that was located in Canada. At that time it was less than $1 per lb.

I was a pressman back when Linotype went to 27 cents a pound. Old timers could hardly believe it. 27 cents for Linotype! What was the world coming to?

Wayne Smith
11-13-2015, 12:37 PM
Mike V. might have contributed to that. I think he uses linotype for everything since I have read that he probably has more lino than most of us have WW. When I first started casting, I read a lot and most articles recommended lino. I almost bought some from an advertiser in The Fouling Shot that was located in Canada. At that time it was less than $1 per lb.

Every time I have read Mike V talking about casting lino he has stated that he uses it because he has so much. No where have I read him recommending it for other's use. He does say it casts nicely, though.

alamogunr
11-13-2015, 01:17 PM
I was a pressman back when Linotype went to 27 cents a pound. Old timers could hardly believe it. 27 cents for Linotype! What was the world coming to?

When I mentioned "less than $1/lb" it included shipping from Detroit. The seller was located in Windsor, across the river. Still a long way from 27¢. And it was less than 20 years ago.

Blackwater
11-13-2015, 01:27 PM
Mary B, I wish I'd been there when that happened. Thanks for a really hearty chuckle.

mdi
11-13-2015, 01:56 PM
Even the smallest drop of water hitting hot lead will cause an explosion.
Well, I didn't believe this one. As a kid I made sinkers on Ma's stove and cooled the pot with a cup of water so I could get out of the kitchen before Ma started dinner. No explosion or "Tinsel Fairy". I re-tried this "experiment" with my WW alloy in a half full Lee pot. Nope, no explosion, no Tinsel Fairy. Just a bunch of steam...

I don't remember any myths as I rarely pay any attention to anyone with "hard, absolute" statements...

zomby woof
11-13-2015, 02:40 PM
I was shooting my Garand at our local High Power match. The RO walked by and noticed me shooting funny looking bullets. He picked one up and said "you can't shoot lead out of a rifle, it'll melt". After the match he asked if he could bore scope my rifle, surely to teach me a valuable lesson. How looked long and hard and said "well I think I see a little here". I laughed and said, have fun cleaning copper fouling. now he just walks by and says "lead again" and smiles.

shredder
11-13-2015, 03:56 PM
"Micro groove does not shoot cast"
"everyone knows if somehow your microgroove rifle does shoot cast you must stay under1600 fps"

I have a .35 Remington that did not get the memo. I shoot NOE's version of the RCBS 35-200-FN at just under 2000fps. I hit stuff too!

wmitty
11-13-2015, 04:55 PM
"Cast lead bullets are only good for target practice" - I guess the deer and coyotes haven't heard that yet and died anyway.

Hickok
11-13-2015, 06:02 PM
"You should always "smoke" your mold before casting."

RogerDat
11-13-2015, 06:26 PM
You will save money. :lol:

The check is in the mail now has company in the big lie department.

marvelshooter
11-13-2015, 07:11 PM
How hard can it be? Just heat any old lead til it melts and pour it in a mold.

mongoose33
11-13-2015, 07:15 PM
"It's easy to learn how to use a Star Lubesizer."

I've got to laugh at the "you'll save money" myth. I just shoot more. And much like I was a "tool *****" when I was making golf clubs--there was no new tool I wouldn't want on my bench--it's hard to ignore all the cool new stuff that comes out for reloading and casting. After all, it's not like I can't make perfectly find boolits with what I already have.

Meanwhile, I'm wondering how well that new primer tube loader that looks like a pistol works.... :)

fredj338
11-13-2015, 08:51 PM
Mike V. might have contributed to that. I think he uses linotype for everything since I have read that he probably has more lino than most of us have WW. When I first started casting, I read a lot and most articles recommended lino. I almost bought some from an advertiser in The Fouling Shot that was located in Canada. At that time it was less than $1 per lb.
I used to get it delivered to my house here in Kalif for $1/# about 20yrs ago. The good old days.

alfloyd
11-13-2015, 09:58 PM
"Meanwhile, I'm wondering how well that new primer tube loader that looks like a pistol works.... :smile:"

My Franklin primer tube filler works very well.

Lafaun

singleshot
11-13-2015, 10:47 PM
My favorite and the one that started it all for me was, "you'll save $"

10x
11-13-2015, 11:50 PM
"Micro groove does not shoot cast"
"everyone knows if somehow your microgroove rifle does shoot cast you must stay under1600 fps"

I have a .35 Remington that did not get the memo. I shoot NOE's version of the RCBS 35-200-FN at just under 2000fps. I hit stuff too!

When I followed Lyman's recommended bullet size, cast did not shoot well in my microgroove.
When I sized the same bullet to 0.311" or 0.312" groups got small and the gun got accurate.
I have a Savage 30-30 that needs at 0.311" or larger bullet or it keyholes.

Every gun will respond slightly differently to cast bullets and you do have to experiment to find the "Sweet spot" that works well with one particular gun.

ANd I have quit slugging the bore, I shoot the largest diameter bullet that will chamber easily - usually group sizes drop...

Chill Wills
11-14-2015, 12:04 AM
"You should always "smoke" your mold before casting."

Which end do you light?

rsrocket1
11-14-2015, 01:41 AM
Myth:
Titegroup burns hotter and will melt the base of lead bullets and will cause leading of your barrel.

Truth:
Too small a bullet causes gas cutting. The vaporized lead then deposits itself in the barrel. That's what causes most leading in pistols.

rintinglen
11-14-2015, 03:20 AM
"Works perfect in my gun, so it must work in yours too." With the implication that if "it" doesn't work for you, you must be mentally deficient.
Fact of the matter is that guns are different, even seemingly identical ones, and what works great in my Cougar may be poison in your Smolt.

Hickok
11-14-2015, 08:44 AM
When I followed Lyman's recommended bullet size, cast did not shoot well in my microgroove.
When I sized the same bullet to 0.311" or 0.312" groups got small and the gun got accurate.
I have a Savage 30-30 that needs at 0.311" or larger bullet or it keyholes.

Every gun will respond slightly differently to cast bullets and you do have to experiment to find the "Sweet spot" that works well with one particular gun.

ANd I have quit slugging the bore, I shoot the largest diameter bullet that will chamber easily - usually group sizes drop...10x, that goes right along with what a guy once told me about his reloads, "I just load what Lyman says is the most accurate load.".... kinda like he was "in the know" and my loads were sub-par. When someone has an "uppity attitude" I just go on and don't try to explain the variables, as it would be waste of time.:groner:

JSnover
11-14-2015, 10:31 AM
Heard at my LGS: Women can't cast boolits as I was handing the owner 1,000 .451 cast boolits... guy asked if my husband made them and I said no, I made them. Look on his face was priceless and the store owner started laughing so hard he had to sit down!
It wouldn't surprise me if casting was considered 'women's work' back on the frontier, at least in some households.

JSnover
11-14-2015, 10:51 AM
"The only way to store a mold is by leaving the last boolit in the cavity."
I recently moved an old tool cabinet from a rotting, leaking metal shed. It had been in there for at least two years, chipmunks had moved into the drawers. Of seven molds, none were damaged other than some light 'frosting' on the outside of the blocks and the top of the sprue plates. All of them cleaned up after scrubbing with B'laster. I assume they were oiled before they were put up (they were pretty dry by the time I got to them) but no extensive measures had been taken to preserve them. Some were in their original boxes, some were in plastic bags (wrapped but not sealed), some were loosely wrapped in rags. All cavities were empty.

w5pv
11-14-2015, 11:24 AM
I don't know but I think the old saying was you can pour melted lead into water but not water into melted lead.

Moonie
11-14-2015, 01:29 PM
ive heard coww sizzle when adding them to a pot of molten lead... makes me pee my pants!

Makes me run out of my man cave EVERY time lol, dogs look at me funny from their vantage point in the yard.

RogerDat
11-19-2015, 08:07 PM
The newest, latest, greatest powder, projectile, lube, cleaner or firearm is 10x better than anything that came before....
Has a twin named we have always used this product, technique, material since my great grandfather was a kid so nothing new could be half as good.

Some new stuff is better, some is hype. Some old tried & true is difficult to improve on, some is just the best we could come up with 60 years ago. I leave you gentle reader to figure out which is which.

Seeker
11-19-2015, 09:36 PM
All veteran boolit casters can tell you about this % of this with this % of that with a little of this added will give you this alloy that works great at this velocity.......They are mathematical, metallurgical geniuses!!.........Then one of them told me about the Lead Alloy Calculator.

upnorthwis
11-20-2015, 11:48 AM
Was shooting my M96 Swede at an NRA Vintage ATC match when the RO notices I'm shooting cast. He says "Cast bullets? It'll be a race between you and the guy with the .30 Carbine to see who gets blown off the target more" I won the match.

jlchucker
11-20-2015, 04:21 PM
"Micro groove does not shoot cast"
"everyone knows if somehow your microgroove rifle does shoot cast you must stay under1600 fps"

I have a .35 Remington that did not get the memo. I shoot NOE's version of the RCBS 35-200-FN at just under 2000fps. I hit stuff too!
I didn't even know about this one when I first started casting for an Uncle's 35, and a few other rifles after that--mostly all with microgroove barrels. Must be not only your rifle but the rifles of many, many others didn't get the message either.

Possum Lickaa
03-14-2016, 12:24 PM
Even the smallest drop of water hitting hot lead will cause an explosion.

Had the unfortunate opportunity to test this last night. I discovered a leak in the garage roof because I kept seeing what looked like something bubbling up out of my pot. It was water dripping into the pot from the roof. I was not visited by the tinsel fairy...but it was not fun. I Imagine if that water had somehow gotten below the surface of the lead, things would have gone bad quickly. Very Dangerous. Moved locations!

dudel
03-14-2016, 02:41 PM
On the Glock polygon rifling and lead issue, I like to point out that the Whitworth rifle of Confederate sniping fame had a hex (polygon) form of rifling and it has an outstanding reputation for accuracy.
Robert

Two very different things. The Whitworth used a twisted hex barrel and shot six sided Boolits. The Glock uses polygonal lands.

But to stay on topic, I'll add.

Lee FCD does not work with Boolits. I've found it to work just fine as long as the Boolits aren't oversized.

Ballistics in Scotland
03-14-2016, 05:00 PM
You will save money. :lol:

The other way of saying this is "Most of the cost is capital expenditure, and you won't have to go on doing it."

Molten lead dropped into water just produces steam, and a little water dropped onto the surface of molten lead just produces free, spluttering steam. It is confined water inside lead that is really dangerous - in a mould, in a small spouted ladle, or carried below the surface by dropping in something that has water in its crevices.

Simply pouring plenty of water onto the surface of a lead-pot might well just splutter a little and freeze the surface without an explosion, but I prefer not to try it. I'm assured you can put out a cigarette in an open barrel of aviation gasoline, if you're quick. Or perhaps they mean most of the time.

I don't think pure linotype can be bettered for a cast rifle bullet, if you can spare the stuff. It is when it has to behave the right way on an animal that linotype falls down.

popper
03-14-2016, 06:57 PM
Saw on TV last nite, Betsy Ross made flags in secret but her income was derived casting round balls - and not for the Brits.

shredder
03-14-2016, 07:07 PM
I didn't even know about this one when I first started casting for an Uncle's 35, and a few other rifles after that--mostly all with microgroove barrels. Must be not only your rifle but the rifles of many, many others didn't get the message either.

Truly amazing how much "common knowledge" is really anything but. Size and boolit nose relationship to the throat matter most to my guns overall. For my marlin 35 Rem. I see the micro grooves engraved on the nose of the boolits when I eject a round. They shoot very well.

Wolfer
03-14-2016, 07:18 PM
I can tell you if you set a frozen muffin pan on frozen concrete and pour in molten lead the tinsel fairy will visit you. Since that day I've never cared for the old sow.

I assume condensation got trapped under the lead. My reloading shed looked like it was Christmas.

Earlwb
03-14-2016, 07:43 PM
Even the smallest drop of water hitting hot lead will cause an explosion.

Well I have seen and experienced both. A drop of water hitting the molten lead and instantly forming a steam layer and quickly evaporating. Nothing happened. Then one day I was casting some ingots to save for later, and a drop of sweat fell off of me and into the melting pot and sure enough a explosion of lead everywhere. I still have a scar on my arm today from where a glob landed on it and it instantly made a hole there.

So it would be wise to avoid having any water near the stuff.

Harter66
03-14-2016, 08:06 PM
A plain base won't go that fast.

No (insert old pistol model) will shoot that fast on that load.

There are no 30 cal bbls with a twist that fast.

ARs foul the gas with lead. Shhhhhh don't tell the sks or the AR.

Spin has no effect on accuracy /has everything to do with accuracy (it depends cause)

That bullet leads every thing it goes in .

You have to have a gas check over x pressure. Shhhh the 40,9 and 357s I shoot don't know that .

Blackwater
03-14-2016, 08:25 PM
Was talking with a friend recently, and he sights in over 300 rifles a year, mostly just before deer season. Many have heard that if he sights your rifle in (usually as opposed to having Wal Mart do it with those "laser" thingies they use, and then reassure the customer they're "all sighted in now" even in the absence of any knowledge of what load they'll be shooting) you're REALLY good to go, and they bring their guns in droves for him to sight in. He never charges anyone anything and just likes doing it, and this way he gets to take note of who's got particularly good shooting rifles, which he often gets a chance to buy from them later.

His pet peeve is when people buy some garden variety 100 grainers for their .25/06, and THEN go hunting with some Fed. Premiums with 100 gr. Noslers or some such other load. He keeps telling them that you just can't do that, but they insist it "ought to be" the same because they've both got the same wt. bullet. He tells them that different brands may use a different powder or a different charge wt., but it seems to still do no good, and they seem to be addicted to doing what they THINK "ought to be" and ignore the actual results that prove (or ought to?) that they're wrong. It seems that people today, at least all too often, go with what they WANT to think rather than with what proves out in reality, and neither he nor I have found a cure for it. We've both come to just telling them, "If you like the results you've been getting, keep doing what you're doing. If you don't, try it my way." Mostly, they just stand and look at us like a doe in the headlights at night, but a few DO at least go with what the targets tell them, and slowly, the rest sinks in. But they're altogether too rare these days.

It doesn't make any sense to come to someone and ask them to teach you how to shoot better, and then ignore everything they tell you, but ....well, lots of folks do it anyway. Very frustrating!

leeggen
03-14-2016, 08:50 PM
Son n law just loves it when the gun friends tell him not to shoot lead boolits in his autos(45&9) Then after they have been shooting for awhile he shows them what he is shooting. Yip like deer in head lights. He also gives them our web sight to do some reading, they still don't beleive him. Some things you just can't change. After shooting he even shows them the barrels to look at, no way you are doing that, it just won't work.
Love this sight, thanks for proving alot of myths wrong.
CD

flyingmonkey35
03-14-2016, 11:35 PM
Rule # 1. Never trust someone who is selling you something

Rule #2 measure twice and cut once. Or do your own research and then double check it.

Rule # 3. Speed kills. Slow down. This is true with driving and reloading.

Mal Paso
03-15-2016, 11:50 AM
Not a Myth!

Propane has a lot of hydrogen. When it burns that hydrogen becomes water. The combustion gas from a propane burner is supersaturated with water. Passing a cold lead ingot through that gas on the way to the pot will coat the ingot in water - Condensation.

I never add any metal once the propane Smelting Pot is fired.

HB0708
03-15-2016, 12:43 PM
A lot of good info here for a newbie! Thanks to all who have posted!

alamogunr
03-15-2016, 01:10 PM
Not a Myth!

Propane has a lot of hydrogen. When it burns that hydrogen becomes water. The combustion gas from a propane burner is supersaturated with water. Passing a cold lead ingot through that gas on the way to the pot will coat the ingot in water - Condensation.

I never add any metal once the propane Smelting Pot is fired.

Mal, That is complete news to me. I have never experienced that. Maybe because I have never used propane to melt anything except WW and they were added with a shovel. The only time I use propane to melt ingots is when I fire up a plumbers furnace to ladle cast. It has been awhile since I did that and don't remember how I added ingots. Do you turn off the propane each time you add to the pot?

I can recount one experience I had when cleaning up about a ton of range scrap that I purchased from a commercial(?) caster that supplied police & sheriffs departments in a nearby city. I picked this material up and put it in 5 gallon buckets. I did my clean up and pouring ingots on the farm of a friend since I could do it in a field and keep the smoke and mess away from houses. Before I could start, the rain came and I covered the buckets with an old tarp. Apparently, there was a leak and one bucket got seriously wet. I dumped that bucket out on a sheet of plywood and let as much water run off as I could. Finally, I added one shovel at a time to the three quarter full pot, taking care not to dump it fast. Actually, I kind of slid off the shovel onto the top of the melt. It just sat there and steamed. I waited until the steam quit and fluxed with some old candles. I didn't stir until it was obvious that the stuff was dry. I managed to clean up the whole bucket this way.

Looking back, I think the only way this worked was that there was a lot of lead fines in this stuff. It tended to support the small chunks of boolits. The other is: we all know who looks out for fools and their foibles.

fatelk
03-15-2016, 09:37 PM
I don't have anything that hasn't been covered, but I'll +1 on "Lead bullets don't work for 9mm". Actually it was more like "lead bullets are just terrible in general".

A friend of mine wouldn't have anything to do with lead bullets, and I think kind of looked down on me for using inferior junk. He said that many years previous he and a friend had bought a big box of generic commercial lead 9mm bullets, and loaded up a few hundred rounds for blasting. The spent the afternoon blasting cans in the desert, then hours in the evening scraping lead out of barrels. I couldn't seem to convince him that if done right it works fine.

Here's one that's off topic of cast bullets- I had a guy tell me with absolute authority to never ever shoot surplus GI AP 30-06 ammo through a rifle I cared about, since the hard AP bullet would strip out the rifling within just a few shots. He said it with such total conviction that I didn't bother arguing, just nodded my head and said I'd be sure to watch out for that.

Mal Paso
03-15-2016, 11:33 PM
Mal, That is complete news to me. I have never experienced that. Maybe because I have never used propane to melt anything except WW and they were added with a shovel. The only time I use propane to melt ingots is when I fire up a plumbers furnace to ladle cast. It has been awhile since I did that and don't remember how I added ingots. Do you turn off the propane each time you add to the pot?

A member here had an explosion and it was tracked back to moving cold ingots through the propane exhaust vapor coming around the rim of the pot. It won't cause an explosion every time but propane exhaust is saturated with water.

Scrap can be wet when you start. Lead will not melt until after all the water boils off.

Once the lead melts I don't add anything but sawdust.

Water dropped rejects that you are remelting should go into a cold pot too. Drying several days does not get rid of all the moisture. Been there.

Lloyd Smale
03-16-2016, 08:46 AM
you need to cast soft alloys that bump up to fit your gun. Truth be told its a rare gun that shoots soft (under 10bhn) better then hard lead (over 10bhn) if in fact you have a good gun. A bullet bumping up is a bullet that's deforming. Would you want your heavy barrel 308 match gun to turn its bullets into a blob of lead and expect it to shoot its best.

mdi
03-16-2016, 01:48 PM
Had the unfortunate opportunity to test this last night. I discovered a leak in the garage roof because I kept seeing what looked like something bubbling up out of my pot. It was water dripping into the pot from the roof. I was not visited by the tinsel fairy...but it was not fun. I Imagine if that water had somehow gotten below the surface of the lead, things would have gone bad quickly. Very Dangerous. Moved locations!
I tested this myth way before I started casting bullets (and waaaaaay pre-web). I used to make sinkers on Ma's stove and when I was done, and had to get out of her way, I cooled the molten lead by slowly pouring water on it. No explosions, no "Tinsel Fairy, no problem. The water turned to steam as quickly as I poured it on the melt. I re-visited this method just a few months ago; I needed to leave the shop and didn't want to wait until the pot (Lee 20 lb.) cooled so I slowly poured water on top of the melt. Lots of steam but just like before, no Etna style eruptions, no problems. Water only becomes a problem if it gets below the surface of the melted lead, where it turns to steam and expands rapidly = eruption...

David2011
03-17-2016, 12:23 AM
Lead is 11.36 times denser than water, which means water will float on top of lead. When a water drop encounters a surface of 700-800 degrees it will bounce around on a cushion of steam.

Now, if you water water trapped say between a wheel weight clip and a wheel weight and drop it into a pot of molten lead, the tinsel fairy will visit you. Of if say you water drop your bullets, get a drop of water in one of your mold's cavities and don't hear it skittering around in the cavity and fill the cavity with molten lead you'll be greated with a pop and the tinsel fairy will emerge from the sprue hole post haste

. . . one should also should understand the physics of the dangers at hand.

Yep, don't understand how water would get under the surface without help, been casting for a long time.


You will save money. :lol:

Shooting USPSA I would have spent a bunch more if I couldn't cast.


Heard at my LGS: Women can't cast boolits as I was handing the owner 1,000 .451 cast boolits... guy asked if my husband made them and I said no, I made them. Look on his face was priceless and the store owner started laughing so hard he had to sit down!

Went to high school with a girl whose brother got a lead/tin soldier kit. She cast and he, the graphic artist, painted them.


You only need one mold:bigsmyl2:

Foe each boolit. . .


"It's easy to learn how to use a Star Lubesizer."

I've got to laugh at the "you'll save money" myth. I just shoot more. And much like I was a "tool *****" when I was making golf clubs--there was no new tool I wouldn't want on my bench--it's hard to ignore all the cool new stuff that comes out for reloading and casting. After all, it's not like I can't make perfectly find boolits with what I already have.

Meanwhile, I'm wondering how well that new primer tube loader that looks like a pistol works.... :)

I've always been one to buy the tool rather than pay someone else to do the job. I have always been able to have toys beyond my income level as a result.


"Works perfect in my gun, so it must work in yours too." With the implication that if "it" doesn't work for you, you must be mentally deficient.
Fact of the matter is that guns are different, even seemingly identical ones, and what works great in my Cougar may be poison in your Smolt.

Right. "If I can't do it then you shouldn't be able too, either."


I don't know but I think the old saying was you can pour melted lead into water but not water into melted lead.

Yep, water has specific gravity of 1. Lead is over 11. Water needs help to get under the surface of molten lead.


Was shooting my M96 Swede at an NRA Vintage ATC match when the RO notices I'm shooting cast. He says "Cast bullets? It'll be a race between you and the guy with the .30 Carbine to see who gets blown off the target more" I won the match.

Of course. You are shooting the finest military rifle ever produced.


Had the unfortunate opportunity to test this last night. I discovered a leak in the garage roof because I kept seeing what looked like something bubbling up out of my pot. It was water dripping into the pot from the roof. I was not visited by the tinsel fairy...but it was not fun. I Imagine if that water had somehow gotten below the surface of the lead, things would have gone bad quickly. Very Dangerous. Moved locations!

It takes some outside force to get lead under the surface of molten lead.


Not a Myth!

Propane has a lot of hydrogen. When it burns that hydrogen becomes water. The combustion gas from a propane burner is supersaturated with water. Passing a cold lead ingot through that gas on the way to the pot will coat the ingot in water - Condensation.

I never add any metal once the propane Smelting Pot is fired.

I've read a lot of Mal's postings and swapped PMs with him. I Have a lot of respect for what he says.

David

M-Tecs
03-17-2016, 01:59 AM
A member here had an explosion and it was tracked back to moving cold ingots through the propane exhaust vapor coming around the rim of the pot. It won't cause an explosion every time but propane exhaust is saturated with water.

Scrap can be wet when you start. Lead will not melt until after all the water boils off.

Once the lead melts I don't add anything but sawdust.

Water dropped rejects that you are remelting should go into a cold pot too. Drying several days does not get rid of all the moisture. Been there.

I preheat everything before it goes into hot pot. When I am running multiple h&g 10 cavity molds I use a 90 pound pot with two 20 pounders as feeders coupled with an oven preheating the ingots for the feeder pots.

NC_JEFF
03-17-2016, 07:18 AM
Mal Paso is the winner. Biggest myth to date

rbuck351
03-17-2016, 08:36 AM
All hydrocarbon fuels produce a bunch of water as they burn. The carbon mixes with oxygen to produce CO2 and the Hydrogen blends with oxygen to form H2O. With gasoline it's roughly a gallon of water per gallon of gas burned. Take your propane tourch to a cold piece of metal and the first thing you see is the metal getting wet from the water condensing on the still cold metal. As the metal heats up the water quits condensing but it's still there.

fredj338
03-17-2016, 03:00 PM
Every time I have read Mike V talking about casting lino he has stated that he uses it because he has so much. No where have I read him recommending it for other's use. He does say it casts nicely, though.

Back in the day, I used to get lino from a local print shop for 50c/#. I cast everything with it because casting with lino was just easy. then I started mixing it when that source gave out, shop closed. My fav myth, you'll get lead poisoning form casting bullets. Yep, only if you eat them.

MT Gianni
03-18-2016, 12:22 PM
Not a Myth!

Propane has a lot of hydrogen. When it burns that hydrogen becomes water. The combustion gas from a propane burner is supersaturated with water. Passing a cold lead ingot through that gas on the way to the pot will coat the ingot in water - Condensation.

I never add any metal once the propane Smelting Pot is fired.

Chemically it is C3 H8 or 3 parts carbon 8 parts Hydrogen. Combustion changes it to heat, light, added oxygen for CO2 or possibly CO [Carbon Monoxide], the 80 % nitrogen in air remains so and the 8 parts Hydrogen mix with the Oxygen for H20. passing a cold ingot through the LP flame gets you condensation. Nat gas is Ch4 or the same amount of Hydrogen with less carbon. same result though less likely to make CO. Warm your ingots on a hot plate or the side of the pot.

ASM826
03-25-2016, 01:07 PM
Myth:
Titegroup burns hotter and will melt the base of lead bullets and will cause leading of your barrel.
Titegroup has been my powder of choice for both 9mm and .45ACP for years (3? 4? at least). All with cast. I'm not making anything to go all that fast, but leading is not a problem.