New to 30-30 boolits don't fit

[Motard]

Hallo, as writtend in other post the new win '94 arrived and I started casting for it. I have a Lee 170 FN GC mould wich drops 178 gr and a vintage lyman 311249 F (modified with a removable bottom to fit eventually gas check): without this mod, it drops 158 gr FB. With my alloy both boolits are on the fat side are so having the barrell sludged 308,2 I pass them throught a Lee RS die wich sizes 309,4. Assume that untill here I am correct? really hope so

Matter comes with the Win chamber wich seems on the tight side: first boolits batch no one made me closing the action. I took some measurements and caught that
A) Resizing brass perfectly untill rim was abslolute necessity.
B)Any flaring on the mouth cannot be corrected with le Lee FCD. It need to be minimal, and then the brass must be passed throught a tapering die. LFC make the mouth like a whoman waist and the chamber don't axcept that.
So I made on a late a new steel LEE Flaring insert as per instruction found on web (million thancks to the author, Mashall...) with three steps at .299-.307-.314 (you can see in the center of the pic) for belling the mout to axcept my boolits and don't shave them. But still have some troubles in feeding. Any cons or help? I have discarded the cheap RGB Lee Dyes I had. and bought me an RCBS double set (as the one I use on 45-70 with zero troubles) and a Lee collet set. Would be better use only the LC? Any suggestion is welcome because I have no valuable experience in leverguns. If it was on one of my thrusty bolt action I would have just snapped the lever close and shot them as they came, no issue, but I am scared to make harm to the Win. :)
153096

[flyingmonkey35]

Wow your spelling got worse and worse.

But I have the same issue with my 30-06.

After seating the bullet your case neck is now over sized by 1thousandth of a inch

This will cause your case not to chamber.

I'm thinking of resizing the projectile down buy a 1or 2 to prevent this

[Motard]

Sorry my english is not so good and become whorst when I tipe from cellphone. I'll try to clean up the text from Pc but apologize for mistakes in a foreign language. As for resizing I know how to enlarge the sizer, but making his hole smaller? Have no idea. Thankyou for helping Flyngmonkey :)

[Win94ae]

As for resizing I know how to enlarge the sizer, but making his hole smaller? Have no idea. Thankyou for helping Flyngmonkey :)

He wants you to size the bullet smaller.

Lee Bullet Lube and Size Kit 309 Diameter (http://www.midwayusa.com/product/501819/lee-bullet-lube-and-size-kit-309-diameter)

[Win94ae]

He wants you to size the bullet smaller.

Lee Bullet Lube and Size Kit 309 Diameter (http://www.midwayusa.com/product/501819/lee-bullet-lube-and-size-kit-309-diameter)

I wish I could understand your original post.

[scattershot]

Wow your spelling got worse and worse

Just curious, how do you think you would do in Italian?

[Blackwater]

Motard, I'm just guessing here, but your problem might just be in the adjustment you made in your crimp die. If you're going to crimp, or even just straighten out the case mouth without really applying a crimp, all cases need to be the same length, and then, the process I use is to run the case fully up in the ram, then screw the seater/crimper die down over it until it just starts to touch the case mouth.

From that point, I just turn it down in about 1/16 or 1/32 of a turn until it looks right and feeds into the chamber.

If you seat the die down a little too far, it can press down too hard on the case mouth, and make a little bulge roll up underneath it. This can produce the feeding problems you've had.

As I said to begin with, this is just a guess, but it's something you might want to try. When it comes to crimping, very fine adjustments can yield significantly different results sometimes. Reloading is a pretty exacting pursuit, even if many don't always treat it as such.

If you have one or more good reloading manuals, I think I'd give the front of them a very thorough reading, until you understand what it all means and how it works. I re-read them over and over, and have for 50+ years now, and still re-learn things when I go back through them. It's embarassing when an old timer at this, like me, does that, but it sure beats having problems and troubles! Let us know how it all works out, will you?

[flyingmonkey35]

Just curious, how do you think you would do in Italian?
Horrible. Now I know and knowing is half the battle.

Orribile. Ora so e Conoscere è a metà dell'opera.


Thanks Google!

I apologize, as it looked like you went internet slang on us.

[Mk42gunner]

Your barrel slug measuring .3082", and the sized bullet measuring .3094", the dimensions sound like they should be compatible.

Your chamber sounds like the tightest .30-30 chamber I have ever read of.

The neck expanding insert you made on the lathe should work fine. I would not run the case onto the .314" part very far, in fact just enough to flare the case mouth so you can start the base of the gas check about halfway. You might not be able to see the flare, but you can feel it.

I have loaded many rounds for the .30-30 with a set of RCBS dies and a neck expanding die. The bullet seating die should have a roll crimping shoulder that should straighten the flared neck and turn it into the crimp groove.

After adjusting the bullet seating depth, unscrew the seating stem several turns. Then screw the whole die down until the crimping shoulder touches the case neck, plus about 1/8 turn more. Try that round in your rifle, if it chambers freely, turn in the seating stem to touch the bullet and lock everything in place.

Let us know if this works or not.

Good luck,

Robert

[sthwestvictoria]

Before you even load bullets, do the re-sized, unloaded cases fit in the chamber and the lever close fully? Is this new brass, fired in your rifle or fired in another 30-30?


I pass them throught a Lee RS die wich sizes 309,4.

That sounds good, this is with the GC on and then you size them to crimp the Gas Check on and size to .309?



B)Any flaring on the mouth cannot be corrected with le Lee FCD. It need to be minimal, and then the brass must be passed throught a tapering die. LFC make the mouth like a whoman waist and the chamber don't axcept that.

The bullet seating die should be set up to iron out the case mouth flare, rather than rely on the Lee FCD to do this. At least that is how I perform this step. From your description that the Lee FCD is making the case neck like a woman's waist I wonder if you are applying too much crimp and bulging the case neck?
What measurement is a loaded cast bullet load at the neck compared to a factory 30-30 load?

The other thought is about your Cartridge Overall Length - where do you crimp and what is the Cartridge overall length? Does the shorter 158grain have as much trouble chambering as the longer 170grain? My Win 1894 has not free-bore at all, the rifling starts straight away from the end of the chamber and so with a longer projectile like the Lee 170grain you may get engraving of the nose of the projectile by the rifling. This is my pre-64 Win 1894 chamber cast next to a factory 150grain round:
153103

[Motard]

Wow, lots of info here. Tank's all of You. Seldom I can think and write straight in English, and make myselfef better understood, most of time I think in Italian, and try to translate making some mess. Sorry about. Robert and FlyngMonkeys: this is how I discovered the roll crimping let me overcome the problem, spometimes. The second batch I made had "only" 3 discarded on a total of 20 I made. But usually I got 100/100 good so I am still concerned. But thanks for tips, refreshing is always usefull and very wellcome. I am an avid reloader too, but as I told, fairly new to leverguns and absolutely new to cast boolits. Problem is the lack of knowledge about this weapons on this side of the pond. I am not a black arms lover as many here, but I am use to bolt action and hand guns reloading. I have few manuals (Sierra 2014, Lyman 49th, and the Cast Bible 3 edition) aswell as some italian that are pretty well done (apart the facts that powders easy availables are total different, and this is way I stick on Viht). Differencies are also in other stuff availability. If I need a die 9 times on 10 I wouldn'' find it ready at the shop but have to order, whait a week or so, and pay it two or three times the Cabela's price (wich is not the lowest on the marcket from my Us experience). In one word You are living in a great Nation.
Stewestvictoria: yes unloaded cases fits well, I have been shooting them in the same rifle wich is a Miroku Win '94 brand new. And here are two possible issues: may be I should break-in in the rifle with some more jacketed rounds before starting the cast pills cure? I shot 20 FMJ soft nose and started reloading the cases wit plumb(alloy).
Second: I could only find 5 boxes 150 grain Sellier&Bellot 2934 (still I have 4 untouched). In my experience the brass from the Cecz factory is good enaught (lot of 308, 6,5x55 and 223 reloaded untill now) it last long, no needs for frequent anealing as Lapua. But the thikness of material seems me way more consistent if compared side by side with the one of the only other lever I have, Starline 45-70. Dunno if this may be the broblem but it really appear to be a fat brass. The factory load are .326,7 at the mouth, mines are .327,0 either fitting or not. Oal is always under 64mm wich is less than 2.550 and brass is trimmed by the Lee Qt, shaved inside out. Good advise about making a chamber calc, but again I need to find the compound as in my last visit in Us I couldn' get Cerrosafe in any shop I scouted (rather all on my way from Boston up to Montreal and back via NY sState). Meanwhile I can test the chamber lengh with the empty splitted case method because the Hornady Gauge I had is gone to a friend. I was not teasing about slamming the bolt action in similar cases. For the range I barely if not at all crimp my bulletts and never hot load them. So a good kick is enaught to reseat the bullet and shot it without much riscks. Not to say it happens often but sometimes, i.e. when reloading for Mosin Nagants, wich are the most variable beasts I met in dimensions, as well as nice shooters (deserve aggetive fine for Carl Gustaf Husquarna) :))))
ps: Wasnt the Lfc the best friend for the tube magazins guns? I think U read that ans I currently use it on 45-70 but with the 30-30 I cannot have it working well. will trie the lightest crimp possible but the roll seems way better.
side by side from up: no-go go 150 Fb and starline and S&B bras. 153109

[brstevns]

One more thought. When seating the bullet, check case to see if it is collapsing the shoulder area making it to large to feed into the chamber. Make sure also that all your brass (cases) are the same length.

[scattershot]

I have had a problem like you describe with the 30/30, and in my case it was either slightly crushing the shoulder somehow, or applying excess crimp, which sometimes bulges the neck at the case mouth. The 30/30 is a fairly thin case, so it takes extra care. Please let us know what you find.

[Motard]

Scatteshot, lucly I have developed enaugh feeling and it doesen't happens frequently to me to crusch shoulder or buldge collets. But never say never :). As soon as I'll find the time I will make new batch and report about. Meeanwhile for who like me has the cheap Lee Flaring Kit, is concerned about flaring and not belling brass mouth (soft alloy may be resized when seated IMHO) and don't have access to a lathe this is a simple make your's own "beller": 8 mm bolt, threaded section chopped away, and head fixed in a stand drill at low speed for one minute. A file and some fine grit to taper the end and then slimm the first 9mm of the body. It whorks as well as the lathe-made brother. Not that I am thinking can teach anyone but just to share in forum spirits.153138

[Wayne Smith]

Are you coming back to the states any time soon? If so get ahold of one of us in the area you will be and we can order some stuff to have available to you when you get here. Cerrosafe included!

[Motard]

Your barrel slug measuring .3082", and the sized bullet measuring .3094", the dimensions sound like they should be compatible.







Your chamber sounds like the tightest .30-30 chamber I have ever read of.







The neck expanding insert you made on the lathe should work fine. I would not run the case onto the .314" part very far, in fact just enough to flare the case mouth so you can start the base of the gas check about halfway. You might not be able to see the flare, but you can feel it.







Robert



Hi Robert made this flare stopper so I don't need to readjust the LeeFD every time I change caliber. Hope it works. I am also thinking if would be possibile to make myself a sort of "go-no-go" gauge with the discarded Lee sizer die I have or casting a form from a fired case with the WW zinc wheight I toss. Too many ideas and few time and skills.

Yes Wyne Smith I am going visiting Vegas Shot Show in mid jan with my girl friend and my shooter's company. Hopefuly I would buy some stuff there or in Vegas weapons shops. But doesen't seem from my web search there are many.http://www.discussionsnetwork.com/forumfiend/uploads/images/78865.jpg



Sent from my C6903 using Forum Fiend v1.3.3.

[44man]

I have the same problems with a friends 94. Loads that fit my Marlin will not go in his rifle and it is an old one. I just size for mine enough to chamber but need to FL for his.
Watch your boolit nose, make sure it will fit in the muzzle. I have one mold I need to size the nose to fit.
Toss the FCD. use the roll crimp from the seat die and only enough.
Another thing I found with the 30-30 is brass is never even around the neck. I was getting .020" or more run out so I turn the outside of necks to give me .000 to .002" run out. Those wobble boolits did not shoot. Accuracy went way up.
I made my own flare tool from an old RCBS die, it does not expand. I use Hornady dies because the inline seater is very good.
Another advantage from turning is it takes less sizing and the expander comes out easier but still needs lubed. Too hard a pull with the expander can bend shoulders. Just even the necks, don't cut all the way around. You should have a spot the cutter does not touch. I really like the RCBS neck turning tool.

[Motard]

+1 44man. After many trials I think I got where the problem is, as you and others forumers had correctly anticipated:the LFCD. Radial crimping simply does not works at least in my rifle. It applies a spot crimp while to axcept the cast bulletts there mast be some belling of the case. It may be difficoult to spot with only bare eyes but the LFCD make that whoman waist effect just some microns after the mouth and this stops the full cartridge feeding. A roll crimp instead will correct the mouth expansion way deeper and the rounds will fit. It also make sense to me because the LFCD is usefull where FMJ bullets are crimpedt out or without the channelure. Roll crimp can securely set a leading bullet, either in the crimp grove or not, beeing the skirt way softer.
Cause neither my Lyman or Lee bullets are too tall I could also trim my brass shorter. and this helps too. I did had no time to full reload some rounds but I made some tests with empty cases and this is what I think happened to my rounds. Will post confirmation as soon as I can but jet whant to tanks everyone for precious help received.

[w30wcf]

Motard,
I would bet that the nose diameter of your bullet is larger than the bore diameter. In looking at you pic it appears that the nose of the bullet is being distorted during the sizing operation which can also lead to nose upset. Try seating a bullet that has not been sized and see if it chambers ok.

w30wcf

[Rally]

It looks to me like he is overcrimping. The top round looks to have some distortion at the crimp, which could cause a flair below the crimp.

[Motard]

Yes I have to revise my whole crimping method, but still I am afraid I am stuck in a dead end street for leading risks. If I flare the mouth the minimum needed to axcept my casts (we know now my rifle mouth is tight) then they are forced to be re-sized by the brass at 307.

[Maximumbob54]

Motard,
I would bet that the nose diameter of your bullet is larger than the bore diameter. In looking at you pic it appears that the nose of the bullet is being distorted during the sizing operation which can also lead to nose upset. Try seating a bullet that has not been sized and see if it chambers ok.

w30wcf

This is the issue. Looking back at the top most bullet shows the nose is very distorted to the point of being smashed. If your lead is that soft that seating the gas check and lube sizing is crushing the bullet then the alloy is far too soft unless these are very light loads with pistol powder. If as the chamber cast on the other rifle is the same as this one then pretty much any smashing of the bullet is going to make it not fit the bore.

[popper]

3094 size for 3082 groove is good. Full length size a case, flare the mouth a little at a time and see how large the chamber NECK is. When it won't chamber, mic the mouth and subtract 0.001. That gives the max. neck diameter. Expand the neck on a case to ~ 3092 and see if it fits. Flare the mouth a bit, load a boolit, check for ANYTHING too large, nose too. Adjust the Lee FCD to ONLY remove the flare - don't try to crimp into a groove! See if it fits. You may need to add some JB weld to the bottom of the FCD to only remove the flare AT the mouth.

[wmitty]

Motard:

I agree with w30wcf; looks like the land diameter of your barrel is smaller than the nose diameter of your mould. This will prevent cartridge from chambering if the boolits tightly crimped in the case. Might try an unsized boolit in an partly sized case and see if the boolit is pushed back into the case neck as it touches the lands.

Thanks for the idea about using the 8mm capscrew to make a neck expander; I'd been using bolts to do this, but holding them in a bullet pulling die. Your idea is better!

[swheeler]

Motard; Take a S&B factory load you fired and measure the inside diameter of the neck, a cast bullet that big will be fine to shoot(close to.330" loaded outside neck diameter should still chamber). Looking at the top round in the picture it looks like rifling engraved right in front of the case mouth(if you actually tried to chamber this round), guessing the nose of the bullet too big in diameter. I don't know if it is casting too large or you are bumping it up during /sizing gas check seating operations. Just seating the bullet .010-.020" deeper may let it chamber, if it does use the FC die backed off enough to hold the bullet firmly, not over done.

[Motard]

HI, sorry for late answer but Paris assault take all our's attention this night. Mala tempora currunt in Europe.
First of all I must admit I had completely screw up my bore slugging measurement. Redone twice and barrell is .307,4. This give me some advantage.
So this is the math: maximum loadable round is .333 at the crimp. Subtract the thickness of the brass walls (0,236) equal to a fireable cast at .310,6. My lee sizer drops 309,4 (wich seems me very good for a 307,4 bore).307,4 plus 0.23 equal 332,0 at the mouth: this is 01 less than my feedable cartriges (Numbers where decimal, I have translated to make it easier).
Unfortunately I have jet dismantled the rounds that where not feeding (what a pita extracting the gas check!). But as sayd before up to .333 they feeds good.
So the theory appear to be ok. Now I have to apply it and avoid the evetual proceeding errors (crushing collars or smashing lead) manyu had pointed out. Will try and keep you informed :)
Mille grazie again153257

[popper]

333 max neck dia. is the same as my 30 cal, & I have to size 3085 to fit. This is converted 223 brass for 300BO, neck turned for 012 thick. I mic. the necks of loaded and anything over 333 gets pulled. Use hemostats to pull the GC. My 30/30 is Marlin and it's loose.

[Motard]

Use hemostats to pull the GC. My 30/30 is Marlin and it's loose.

I convinced the gas check to shift out with a dental scaler, not an hermostat but always a sort of surgery operation :). about sizing cast to 3085 do you use a lee sizer? mine sizes way larger

[44magLeo]

Are you using a .308 or .309 Lee size die? If you are using the .309, try a .308.
I have a Marlin 1894 in 44 Mag. Lee only makes a .430 size dia. My rifle needs a .432 boolit. I used a steel rod with a slot cut to hold sandpaper to open up the .430 to .432.
If the .308 is a bit small you can open it up a bit that way.
What is your casting alloy?
I also have a Mosin Nagant 91/30 I'm casting Lee 185 gr round nose boolits for it. The nose of the boolit is a snug slip fit in the muzzle of the rifle. I'm using Linotype alloy.
My cartridges chamber fine.
Will the nose of your boolits fit the muzzle of your rifle?
Leo

[Motard]

Hi, 44MagLeo, I ordered the 309 LSD, but have been lucky cause it drops nearly 309, beiing barrel 307,4. The alloy is WW with tin 10,4 Bhn waterdropped. Iam waiting another day to test agening because in past it raised alot afte some 72hours. After some resizing and chamber testing seems I found the culprit: flaring for fitting my fats boolits and subsequential overcrimping process.
But mostly it seems to me that I have found the final solution for my issue: the Lee Collett Set die.


153467


Having only this rifle in 30-30 and beeing all rounds shoot in it I found that every brass passed throug the LNC fits absolutely flush. Ill' now will try it in bundle with the Deat Seat Die wich come in the same box to see if also this works so well. Then will roll crimp some on the RCB seater with the steam removed and some other on Lee FCD. It takes one more passage for crimping but this is what I do routinary because I don't thrust crimp&seat in same action.

Ps: I often shoot Carl Gustaf and Mosin. This one here is called "Il fucile di merda che spara da Dio": a polite translation would be a "Scrapp gun that shots divinely". Just playng obviously, any one that can find a Mosing in prist condition and possibly with same numbers over it have a threasure in his hands and would'never givi it away IMHO

[44man]

I have seated and crimped at the same time for 61 years or more, never found a problem. All revolver and 30-30 or any lever gun was done the same. I never crimp for bolt guns or SS. Some guns I don't even remove the flare if they chamber.
I never owned any gun or boolit that has to have a crimp done separate. Even Lee, chicken scratch crimp groove boolits are crimped when seated.
It is a non-issue.
Some die sets come with a separate die and is OK until you find your boolit is too fat to go through it. Made for jacketed.
I asked if the nose fit the bore but funny I was ignored. Others picked up on it and it is OK, nobody ever fully reads my posts anyway.

[Motard]

Sorry 44Man, As said my english is not so good and often I spent more efforts in finding right words, converting measures, and tryng explain myself, than giving the right answers. In Your's case I skipped for another reason: this morning I whent to a machinist shop to tune my micrometer (soon You'll read a new post about, my suspect where foundates). Begs Your's pardon again. I assume yes the nose bullets fits the bore being 2.67 the Lee FP GC boolits 175 gr and 2.75 (70 mm) the PB 155g Lyman. I don't actually know If this is the correct way to check: hope so. I also chambered an empty brass with a not-seated bullett on top of a thight mouth tryng to catch how much it will be pushed in from rifling. I know it is not a reliaible way to check the free bore (I use the Hornady gauge on my bolt-gun) but it gave me an idea abouth the max coal: it runs from 24.13 (61,3mm) to 2.507 (63,7mm) depending on the lighter or havvier bullet. Hope have answered now

[popper]

The Lee collet die works the same as the FCD, unfortunately you can't use it as a crimper on loaded rounds. Your FCD should hit the top of the case mouth. Trim the brass or adjust the die. With the soft alloy it is easy to over crimp and mess up the mouth. I shoot full power in my marlin, just remove the bell - no need to crimp in cannular. You'll probably have to FL size a case after a couple reloads anyway. I got the sizers in 308,9,10,11 for various rifles. I have the Lee collet for 243 and 30/30, never could get neck tension right - be sure to polish the cones with a real fine paper to make it run smooth.

[44man]

Sorry 44Man, As said my english is not so good and often I spent more efforts in finding right words, converting measures, and tryng explain myself, than giving the right answers. In Your's case I skipped for another reason: this morning I whent to a machinist shop to tune my micrometer (soon You'll read a new post about, my suspect where foundates). Begs Your's pardon again. I assume yes the nose bullets fits the bore being 2.67 the Lee FP GC boolits 175 gr and 2.75 (70 mm) the PB 155g Lyman. I don't actually know If this is the correct way to check: hope so. I also chambered an empty brass with a not-seated bullett on top of a thight mouth tryng to catch how much it will be pushed in from rifling. I know it is not a reliaible way to check the free bore (I use the Hornady gauge on my bolt-gun) but it gave me an idea abouth the max coal: it runs from 24.13 (61,3mm) to 2.507 (63,7mm) depending on the lighter or havvier bullet. Hope have answered now
No problem, I understand you. Others do too. You are doing all you can.
I made my own molds for my 30-30 and I get the front band to touch the rifling a little. The nose fits the bore with one but the other needs the nose sized. I screwed up!
Watch hardness, if you distort the nose sizing or seating, they are too soft. If you crimp hard, the crimp will size a boolit as it is forced through.

[4060MAY]

Motard
incoming PM for a link to an Italian Cast Bullet shooter

[MT Chambers]

Ditch the Lee Factory **** Die.

[popper]

Lee FCD works great for 30/30. For soft lead boolits, get a proper seater nose punch or drip a little hot melt glue in the punch and seat a well oiled boolit. Let it cool and you have the proper nose punch that supports the nose when seating and doesn't bulge the ogive of the boolit.

[Motard]

I have the Lee collet for 243 and 30/30, never could get neck tension right - be sure to polish the cones with a real fine paper to make it run smooth.
Thankyou for Your's head up. I didn't had look jet inside and was really messy. Put a weth piece of cloth with some polishing compound on around a bit of my electric drill and had it perfectly shinyng. You are right. there is small tension on the colletts. May be just a matter of making the inside decapper -sizer pin just a tad slimmer.
I went on reloading my cast but still have 30% not feeding. I am considering tryng neck turning late (I don't have one) to shave the brass just enaught and avoiding resizing the boolits on seating them. Mehanwile there is another insurgent problem with the Winchester jamming close if the round don't chamber perfecly. It need a light whack on the sliding breech lock to have the lever working again and release the cartridge, fired or not. It must have be a real hard time for west pioneers with indians after theyr hairs :)

[fryboy]

Lolz # pioneers ;)
The LFC die has a place but more so for jacketed bullets,it can be used on cast but takes extremely judicious setting
Mostly,like others,I'm curious about just why the action isn't closing,my first thought is the crimp,the second is the nose,if it engraves the rifling it would take more pressure than normal to close the action,only you can decide how much is acceptable, needless to say that trepidation is understandable,like 44man and also like I have too sometimes nose sizing is required ( for me it's on a 7mm casting )
I can't blow your pictures up on this so called smart fone ( bummer that but is on my end lol )
Now about those pioneers... Mostly in that time frame (and unlike the movies..) Most guns of the era were single shot muzzle loaders,the westward expansion was well underway before lever actions were common,the original, the 44rimfire Henry was rather anemic and nonreloadable,when the 73 Winchester came out vast improvements had been made but even those usually used a smaller projectile with a hollow base that expanded under pressure to seal the bore,there was of course other breechloaders but again the smaller hollow based projectile was most common ( carried over from previous experience with the minie ball ) they also mostly used dead soft lead which usually cast smallest of all alloys

[popper]

If you jam the nose into the rifling with hard alloy and heavy crimp, the bolt will lock up - either tight head space (exactly why I always FL size - do you have a Wilson type case gauge?) or the boolit just gets stuck. Look for engraving marks on the nose. I use the Hornady dies for jacketed loading, Lee for cast. Your is a Winney so reaming the neck is probably costly. I'm thinking a cheap solution may be to get or make a smaller sizing die and try it for proper fit/chambering - then shoot to see results. 30/30 necks are pretty thin so neck turning may not leave enough thickness for max loads.
My 300BO is min SAAMI spec so shooting cast is more difficult, I size smaller and use a harder alloy. I'm getting close to 150gr. 30/30 starting load performance.

[Wayne Smith]

If you have to do this fired or not your brass is likely too long. This can/will increase pressure as well.

[popper]

http://www.historynet.com/battle-of-little-bighorn-were-the-weapons-the-deciding-factor.htm
Almost 'good' description of the 'indian' attacks. Custer was a jerk and actually turned down the offer of good repeating rifles. Biggest problem was soldiers that just looked like soldiers. Except for the Palo Duro battle, most 'indian' wars were mere skirmishes of a few indians and a few settlers and waggoneers.

[Motard]

Lolz # pioneers ;)
The LFC die has a place but more so for jacketed bullets,it can be used on cast but takes extremely judicious setting
Mostly,like others,I'm curious about just why the action isn't closing,my first thought is the crimp,the second is the nose,if it engraves the rifling it would take more pressure than normal to close the action,only you can decide how much is acceptable, needless to say that trepidation is understandable, like 44man and also like I have too sometimes nose sizing is required (for me it's on a 7mm casting )
Rounds with OAL at 2.51 shows some rifling marks: so chamber is undoubltely short and tight. I have also the vintage Lyman Mould that drops RNPB bullets fatter than Lees but way shorter: 2.41. Have had issue also with this so I am have convinced myself the culprit is in the collar-crimp combo. Empty cases, barely flared to axcept the boolits, doesn't chambers too: protruding at least 1/4 inch. S&B factory loaded rounds measuring at collar (crimp line) .327 goes. Mines beyng .328/.330 somethimes are axcepted some other requires the firm shut that jamm the action consequently. At .346 they are not unfireable. Cant squize more without squizing badly the lead so: I must try a harder alloy less expanding, or change resizer. Having ended with about three sets of dies plus the LFC I wonder if I can machine the Lee FLS-decapping die to work as boolits resizer instead of waiting a week or more for a .308 to come. Brass trimmed 2.007. Something to consider: S&B brass appear to have exactly the same cosistence in 30-30, 308 and 6,5 (thick???). Not having a thikness mic on hand I can only point out the brass capacity that, bulllet seated, is 35,2 gr

ps: no case gauge. But I must have one for this caliber. I have reloaded some huge thousands bulletts but this is way tharder than others.

[Motard]

Being stuck in such a dead street I went back to the basic: one step by one. Brass sized fits, brass barely flared doesent'. After seating and crimping on brass the Lyman's 150gr RNFB boolits the rounds fits again. After seating and crimping the Lee FNGC the rounds doesn't fits. To me it means that the brass resize the pure lead Lyman ball while the gas check on Lee ball swage the collet and make the mess. If this is true I can assume that no sizer is capable of resizing the gas checks, may be the aluminium type it can, so or it is possible to buy under dimensionate gas checks or I must shoot also this boolits without. But I feel better cause things appears to undergo to some kind of a logical law.
Now the illogical: if I push the Lee boolits all way down in a single press action ...the round fits. The springiness of the brass let the collet retourning to an axceptable (for my rifle mouth) dimensions.But this way the tail of the boolit way porotrude inside the catridge: at the level of the brass shoulder. Powder still whon't be compressed but as far as I know seating such deep in the cartrige is not a safe shape. Am I wrong?
SooTight: here is a pic if seating at 2.4724. Gas check all insede shoulder brass and still touching rifles. 153709

[nvbirdman]

It sounds to me like the bullet nose (the bore riding part) of the Lyman boolit is slightly smaller than the Lee boolit.

[Motard]

+1 Popper. I too cannot crimp at the grow because of oal. Alloy in on the hard side, 14,9 Bhn.

NvBirdman. Lee is a tad slimmer at noose: .3000 instead of .3011 lyman. But the late one is way shorter so it doesen't engrave rifling and has the crimp grove in exact position for 2.405 Oal. Wich seems to likes to my rifle
Over .333 at the mouth is a calling for problems







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[MOA]

Well hope my $.02 helps. This is what I use.
1. I use Hornady dies.
2. I use a .309 sizing die in my RCBS lub-sizer.
3. I use a Lyman "M" neck expander.
4. I use a Lee factory crimp.
Best,
MOA

153774153769153771153773

[Motard]

Lots of good stuff there MOA. Thought I bet the rounds in fourth pics would be rejected from my picky rifle. Befort starting serious thinking rechambering it (it new, still 2 years warranty) I would experiment with some remington and winchester brass a friend is going to give me. May be that Checz rounds I have are a bit in steroids as wall thikness. Hope also the Mihec mould can helpes being cavity way shorter than Lee and on pair with Lyman. ps pic name inverted, left the Lyman RN righht the Lee Gc, both in the jaws of the Mihec Mold
153776153777

[44man]

If you jam the nose into the rifling with hard alloy and heavy crimp, the bolt will lock up - either tight head space (exactly why I always FL size - do you have a Wilson type case gauge?) or the boolit just gets stuck. Look for engraving marks on the nose. I use the Hornady dies for jacketed loading, Lee for cast. Your is a Winney so reaming the neck is probably costly. I'm thinking a cheap solution may be to get or make a smaller sizing die and try it for proper fit/chambering - then shoot to see results. 30/30 necks are pretty thin so neck turning may not leave enough thickness for max loads.
My 300BO is min SAAMI spec so shooting cast is more difficult, I size smaller and use a harder alloy. I'm getting close to 150gr. 30/30 starting load performance.
Neck turning does not make them thinner. It only makes thickness even. Sure you can cut too much but that is also wrong. You should have a spot that the cutter does not touch.

[MOA]

Have you tried a FP cast boolit yet, or only round nose boolits?

I have been using Lyman #311041, 173 gr. FN, GC.

153778

[Motard]

Lots of good stuff there MOA. Thought I bet the rounds in fourth pics would be rejected from my picky rifle. Befort starting serious thinking rechambering it (it new, still 2 years warranty) I would experiment with some remington and winchester brass a friend is going to give me. May be that Checz rounds I have are a bit in steroids as wall thikness. Hope also the Mihec mould can helpes being cavity way shorter than Lee and on pair with Lyman. Being 0.0877 the Lyman, 0.098 the Lee and 0.0838 the Mihec cavity (GC to be addedd)
153779153779

[MOA]

It would be interesting if the Winchester brass makes a difference.

[Motard]

hope to get it tomorrow an wil let you knowt. I must say qgain thankyou all for great help I am having

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[Motard]

Yes both. the lyman is RN and fits well. the lee is Fp, with some meplat, and doesent. next casting section would put in service the Mihec, hope it fits

[MOA]

What size meplat (diameter)? The Lyman Flat Point on my mould gives me a meplat of 0.209 inches or 5.30 MM. Some mould designs might prevent the nose from entering without issues.

[Motard]

Meplat .216, and rifling marks on the tapered part of the nose. I think I'll need a handy neck late too, just whan to to see if other factory brass may be somehouw thinner and solve the problem.
Popper:
as you wrote before LEEFC must be tuned more than exactly: if too little the petals don't catch-shirnk enaught the brass. Too much and the cartrige resemble e Pyton Snanke digesting an antelope. there is in play the gas check too wich requires more flaring and is counteracting the brass springyness. for the oal I need the Lee Boolits tale should sits exatly at the shoulder end, ala in the stright body of rounds. dont' think is smart.

[Motard]

Here I am larning something. tankyou

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[Motard]

I got it Popper. I have tried, wile struggling with the firts batch of non fitting rounds, crimping the mouth from the upper side of the die. I mean holding the round in a hand, inserting collar from upside and appling force with empty shell'older rising to the die's base , just at the flared portion. Did'nt worked but as You know when tampering from long time on an issue one may loose controll on all factors and may be the cure wasn't well applied. I'll try per your's way and let you know. Also filing down the thoot inside petals may be a viable optiiond. But may be the die would'nt crimp at all then, just close around mouth withouth enaught pressure.
Ps:I have LFCD on alla my rifle calibers, (pistol's too but this i another story) it didn't come to my mind to try 308 to see if I can reach a different height and crimp where needed

[MOA]

Motard,
You are having issues that one should not have. The manufacturer of your rifle is a quality manufacturer, they have made over the past thirty years shotguns and rifles for the Browning label, the Weatherby company, and others. Since the train of thought is that the issues are stemming from a under size cut chamber and or throat. I think you hit on the one way so solve many of the current issues a while back in your posts...............Get a casting of the rifle chamber. Take the rifle to a qualified Gunsmith and have them make a casting, then you will know just what you are dealing with. You may need to get a custom mould made for your chamber, would be maybe cheaper than having the chamber opened up. Just drop it off and go back a few weeks later and get the casting and the gunsmith should be able to tell you what is the best way for you to cast boolits for you rifle.
Please let us know what you decide to do.
MOA

[Motard]

:-)

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[nvbirdman]

Motard, if you know when you're going to Las Vegas and what hotel you're going to be staying in I would love to send you some mixed headstamp 30-30 cases, and maybe a few boolits from my NOE mould.

[Motard]

nvbirdman pm sent. tankyou

[Cowboy_Dan]

It seems to me that your die may be crimping too low. An easy fix to try is to put washers above the shell holder. Since the shell holder is what opperates the petals, this woild make them close while the round is slightly lower.

[Motard]

Motard,
You are having issues that one should not have. for your chamber, would be maybe cheaper than having the chamber opened up. Just drop it off and go back a few weeks later and get the casting and the gunsmith should be able to tell you what is the best way for you to cast boolits for you rifle.
Please let us know what you decide to do.
MOA

Well now I know why at the end of 1.800 all modern armyes started running into Mausers actions :)
I am jocking obviously:
I like this rifle very much and althought I am more familiar (and shoot way better too) with Bolt Action rifles I grow with the the mith of Winchster as the ultimate personal weapon. Wouldn't get rid of it and It has also has peculiar story.
I measured the 308 and the 30-30 LFCD anthe they have equite different heightness. So as CowboyDan suggested if shimming correctly both I can have a longer portion of collet squized. A pita but still viable.
I am also confident the Mihec mould boolits may fit. I will not run my furnace till next week (can't do in home) but bullet seems shaped similar to the Lees, but way shorter. So if the wide meplat is not an obstacle I should be able to set them right to fit. At least I have the thusty Lyman dropping right. I have no idea how much a moulder maker can ask for a custom design and I am not aware of any maker here in Italy but at least I know that abullet with same shape of Lyman 311241 but with flat nose, so to be safe in tub mag, would work flush.

[Motard]

Here is a few pics of what I have done to catch the maximum seating depth for the Lee boolits. Before the numbers
Resized fired round collet diameter: 0.3251- flush chambering
Only mouth flared (with the tool I made on lathe): 0.3279 -NOT chambering
Gently crimped the flared part of mouth at: 0.3263 and an OAL at 2.4035 CHAMBER!
Max Oal allowed with this combo: 2.472
153861
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[MOA]

Motard,
PM sent.
MOA

[Motard]

I used the 308 FCD before I got the 30/30 set, on 30/30, it worked but was a pain.
You mean 309 set? being at home I re-re-evised the whole process and tried crimping as per your's instruction.100/100 issue is coming from the flaring-seating-crimping (plus some constitutional weakness on Win in extractior system).
ANY rounds over .333, possibly 332 at the mouth is on risch. Any crimping that isn't perfectly performed (a little more or a little less) driving to minimal belling on mouth is to be discarded. I have loaded rounds that could be fitted just by the pressure of the tumble and extracted with finger nails (with some efforts) but got stucked if I try to do by the lever action. I also noted that smashing the lever with the rudness of a neandertalian with his clad, both charging and ejecting, is way better than deserving the the attentiontons devoted to a nicew girl. Now having the barrell sludged in 307,4 and rounds coming out from sizer at 309,4 the rule of non leading round where theorically fully respected. But if I want a repeating arm, and not a single-shot-tamper-shot-tamper gun, I need to size smaller may be only 0,002 or 0,004. matter with lee sizer is that you never know exact measure untill you don't buy it.

[pls1911]

I've run into a similar problem with powder coated bullets and/or oversized (.312) bullets.
The bore riding section suddenly is too big for the .301 bore in the former case, and the beck is too large for the chamber in the latter case. The bore rider nose size issue is greatly increased on non-microgroove barrels.
On round nose or similar profile bullets, simply seating a hair deeper often resolves the issue.
Resizing bullets through a .309 or .310 die should resolve the neck to chamber fit issue.
I don't flair the case mouth, but do chamfer the inside lip, allowing the gas check to enter the neck easily.
Also, I do not seat and crimp the bullet in one operation. I use a full length profile die with a taper crimp in the last stage of the Dillon.

[Motard]

Some good news at the end. I received from a friend a few federal and winchester brass. Reloaded wit both bullett Lyman and Lee: NO ISSUE chamberining neither extracting!!!!!
I weighted the cases: both being 5-7 grains lighter than S&B (lighter equal to less thick I assume).
Plus I have crimped with Lee Fcd the lyman boolits that falls IN the crimp grove at 2.380 OAL while I roll crimped (RCBS die) the LEE Boolits that goes way in the brass and shows no groove at 2.400 OAL. Cross my fingers but may be the problem depend from the brass. I hope

[Motard]

[smilie=b:

154676

Ps cause full barrel slug gave me 307,4 i suppose fitting the lead round from chamber (.307) depend from fake ogive was not able to full expand and tahe 307.4 as final value

[Motard]

+1 for pls1911 (http://castboolits.gunloads.com/member.php?4650-pls1911) (cause there is no like button)