Still another 357 Mag question

[shaman]

This is a follow-on to this:

http://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?288659-A-Couple-of-357-Mag-questions


It's better to ask stupid questions than get your face blown off. This is just my first year of casting. So here goes another.

OK, so I took the last batch of 357 brass and annealled it. I had never annealled pistol brass before, but I got the hang of it pretty quickly. I then sized and loaded up another batch of the 158 grain PC GC's with 16 grains of H110.

When I got out to the range, I found out that the brass had expanded at the head to the point it would no longer fit in my Ruger Blackhawk. That wasn't my main reason for doing this load, and it fit fine for its intended purpose in the Marlin 1894. However, I need to ask the question: is this a dangerous sign? I could get all but the last 10th of an inch or so into the cylinder of the Blackhawk, but short of banging it in with a hammer, I did not see how to chamber these in the single action revolver. In fact, pressing them in by hand caused enough sticking that I needed a wooden dowel to get them out.

First off, I don't think the annealing caused this. I think the case was expanded during the previous firing. If anything, the annealing helped, because I got zero case splits so far.

My suspicion is that the 1894's chamber is just a whole lot wider than the cylinders of the Blackhawk. That's fine. I can segregate brass from now on. However, safety demands I ask someone if I'm developing a dangerous condition.

Should I back off the load? It's currently 16 grains of H110. That's under the published MAX by 7/10ths of a grain. I don't see any primer deformation or other danger signs. However, I could back it down to 15.5 grains and still be quite happy.

Should I chuck the brass?

[rond]

Try a heavier crimp on the round and see if that helps. You may need to bell the case more for your boolit, it sounds like its bulging the case.

[Ed_Shot]

What is the diameter of PC'd boolits you are loading?

[Half Dog]

I experienced a similar issue with my .357. I spot checked the fit during each step of the reloading process and found that the expansion was happening during the crimping part. I purchased a Lee factory crimp die and the problem went away.

[cattleskinner]

Sounds to me that the brass is not getting sized the entire way down. Shoot these in your rifle, and try and see if the dies can be set a touch deeper. Maybe screw them in until it touches the shell holder, and add another half turn more?

[mozeppa]

Sounds to me that the brass is not getting sized the entire way down. Shoot these in your rifle, and try and see if the dies can be set a touch deeper. Maybe screw them in until it touches the shell holder, and add another half turn more?

this might be bad for the die.

[Bzcraig]

It's a pretty sure bet your rifle chamber is larger than the BH cylinder. Either separate your brass as you mentioned or FL size all of it after shooting.

[runfiverun]

it's not always the back end of the brass causing the problem.
marlins have a generous throat and ball seat area that will allow some overlong lengths to be fed into them.
but if you got a pregnant chamber your gonna be fighting this constantly.
look inside your sizing die, if it's a carbide die there is a ring in there and they will not size to the base of the case no matter how far down you screw it.

your just gonna flat out have to do some detective work and see why the round won't chamber.
length
boolit shape
base of case
crimp bulge.
all of them can cause you issues.

[gray wolf]

I would like to hear a little more about how they were annealed, hope you didn't heat the case head area.
Also over doing it could soften the brass and kill any spring back effect in the neck. Case head heat could make the brass Um--not so good.

Don't no why your getting splits ? I load all kinds of 357 with all kinds of loads and have yet to split a case or loose accuracy.

I know everyone else is focusing on other areas, but I just felt I needed to ask.

[dondiego]

Will one of the boolits pass through the throats of the Blackhawk without too much resistance? They may be too large.

[Scharfschuetze]

I'm in the "not fully sized" camp I guess. Good dies should get your cases fully sized for any chamber that is within the specifications for your calibre.

If the last .01" of your case is too large for your chamber, that might indicate that the web or base of your case has expanded excessively and that's probably not good as the base below the web is the thickest part of the case. Causes? Too hot a load in previously fired loads, or as suggested above, an excessively large chamber in your rifle.

Were I you:

I would check factory ammo in both weapons for fit. Measure the cases for diameter at the web.

Fire a few of the factory rounds in each and then measure the diameter of the case at the web or just above it and make note of the measurements. Here is where a good micrometer that can measure to four places (.0000) to the right past the decimal is of help. Measure each case at three points and average.

While keeping the cases segregated by the weapon they were fired in, size in your FL die and then remeasure them and compare their sized diameter to the original factory dimensions. If it all looks good, then reload and chamber the rifle cases in your revolver and vice versa and see if they chamber and fire. If they work in both, then the issue is probably with your current cases.

It's all about removing variables that you don't have control of right now with your current cases. The results will give you an idea on how to proceed with your current cases or FL die.

You might also consider buying or borrowing a case gauge for loaded ammo. If your loaded rounds are out of spec in any way, this gauge will quickly let you know.

If all of the above doesn't work, then there are other options, some of which are mentioned in posts above.

[mnewcomb59]

Probably a 38 crud ring in the cylinders. I know its time to clean the chamber on my Rossi 92 when 357s get sticky going in that last .1 inch. For the lever rifle, I flare a 357 case, wipe with solvent, and scrape the chamber 50 or so times. Then clean, recheck, etc. For the revolvers, you can use a 40 cal brush chucked in a drill.

[gwpercle]

Back off on the powder charge a bit. My Lyman book has a max charge for the #358156 155 grain SWC with GC as 15.7 grains of H110. Not sure what powder coating does to pressure, it does increase the boolit diameter and might be increasing pressure.
I'm not sure I would be softening up brass (annealing) for maximum magnum loads...maybe too soft ?
Gary

[shaman]

Thanks all. Let me answer some of the questions:

1) The Blackhawk hasn't had a 38 SPC case in it in 20 years. Factory rounds are fitting just fine in both firearms. The problem is just with this one batch of brass.
2) The way I annealed was to hold the case by the head and stuck the mouth in a propane flame until I started to feel heat and then I dropped them into cold water.
3) The load info I used to determine how much H110 came from the Hodgdon website. They said16.7 grains is max. However, I'll verify this.
3) I'm sizing to .358 after PowderCoating.
4) The change in diameter happened before the annealing.


Based on what y'all are telling me, I think I'm going to:
1) Keep shooting this batch in the lever
2) When it comes time to load them up again, I'm going to readjust the sizing die.
3) Keep the Blackhawk handy and test cases at every step.

If I can't get them to fit the Blackhawk, I will keep them just for the 1894.

[williamwaco]

I vote sizing die adjustment.

[clum553946]

Cases need trimming?

[olafhardt]

Try a heavier crimp on the round and see if that helps. You may need to bell the case more for your boolit, it sounds like its bulging the case. I would think it is possible that the present crimp could be TOO heavy and is slightly collapsmg the brass. You can take the deprimeing rod out of the resizing die and run the loaded rounds up in it.

[44man]

It is not good to anneal revolver brass unless you are doing cat sneeze loads. You lost case tension and can get boolit pull with hot loads and even if they don't move far enough to lock the cylinder, you still increase air space.
I don't know why you get split brass, I am shooting .44 brass I bought 32 years ago and just lost one to a tiny crack at the crimp. Many have been shot hot well over 40X.
I have lost a case now and then with my big bores but it was always with the very first loading of new brass. I lost one .475 case and one .500 JRH. Both at the first shot. The rest are like the bunny that keeps going and going.
I do agree the hard to chamber was not sized down far enough after being shot in the rifle.
I have sloppy chambers in my SBH so brass fired in it will not go in a SRH unless sized right. Then I neck size often too and after a while they must be taken FL again. Same with most rifles, neck size and eventually you need to FL or they won't chamber.
I load for the 30-06 for friends and bought the lee set with the Collete size die, had to buy Hornady dies when the bolts would not close after a few loadings. Lee dies solve a problem that does not exist. FL shoots as good as neck size. Even brass sized with Redfield collar dies will need a FL now and then.
I admire the thought of annealing revolver brass but you are wrong.

[mjwcaster]

I haven't seen it mentioned, how about trying some of the brass after sizing, but before loading a boolit.

Also as far as case gauges, checking all dimensions, they don't, at least not for a loaded round.
I bought one when I got started, used it and the round was fine, went to the range and they locked up my gun.
Brass was sized fine, but boolit was too large/too far out and jammed into the throat/rifling area.

I would have normally checked with the barrel of the gun I was using (XD45), but I didn't have it with me and had a chamber guage (that I mistakenly thought would check everything).

I don't bother with chamber gauges any more, I use actual chambers and plunk test everything now.

May not tell me if my brass is in 'spec', but will tell me if it will work in my firearms, which is all that matters to me.

A chamber gauge may still have some use, just not for me right now.

[chboats]

I agree with mjwcaster. Try the brass after sizing. If it fits the problem is after the boolit is loaded. Measure with a mic the diameter of the loaded round. You may find a bulge just below the crimp or at the base of the boolit. I had the same problem with a Black hawk 45 with the 45ACP cylinder. As someone already suggested started using a Lee crimp die and the problem went away.

Carl

[44man]

Dancing makes a feel good thing. Go direct to the problem. You do NOT need all kinds of measuring tools. Measure this or that, get off my back. Some turn a simple loading into a nightmare. Need this expander or this crimp die.
Stop dancing, you will fall down.

[mdi]

I'm a bit late coming to this thread so if it's already been mentioned, oh well! Anytime there is a fit issue, measure. In this case measure the case diameter after each step in your reloading to verify when it gets too big; after cleaning (from previous load), after sizing/decapping, after bullet seating, and after crimping. There are several things that can make a case larger in diameter, even a too heavy crimp or crimping/seating in one step will bulge the cases...

One thing about getting problem solving info from a forum is it's the "shotgun style" of troubleshooting, which ain't necessarily bad. But you'll get many possible remedies, so establish a troubleshooting methodology. My troubleshooting goes something like this, depending on the problem; first a careful visual inspection of the fired brass. I also measure, with micrometers, the diameter of the cases in a few spots along the case body and the case head. I'll poke out the primer with a punch tool (Lees decapping punch & base) to see if it's loose. Measure the case length and diameters and shoulder (bottlenecks). Measure/inspect closely, the case/cartridge closely after each step in the process. Finding exactly what the problem is and when it happens is the key to troubleshooting...

Jes an old machinist/mechanic/reloader's opinion...;-)

[Scharfschuetze]

Yes, you can measure and be sure, or I guess you can be sloppy and get lucky. With the latter approach, you really won't know, will you. With the first option, you can work through the issue and be the smarter for it. Remember, change one variable at a time, then delete it or confirm it as your problem. It most generally works.

It's always interesting to see the demands or advice made by a few that totally neglect any scientific approach to a problem. Remember that advice is just that; it's advice and not fact, especially with loading and firearms. It's up to you on how you proceed and good on you for asking for advice. You've been given some good possible solutions, so proceed to your satisfaction.

[shaman]

I just wanted y'all to know that the adjustment on the sizing was off. I readjusted everything and loaded 100 rounds over the weekend, and the problem went away after I put a wee bit more cam-over on the sizer.

Thanks for the help, y'all.