40-65 Bullet - lots of Questions.

[SgtDog0311]

I've been casting and reloading for ten or twelve calibers, some in duplicate rifles, for a while now but it's come time to get consider single shots, this time in BP.
So I'm looking for a starting point. One of the favorites I use now is a bastardized 370gr 405 caliber bullet I've been shooting in a 40-63 Ballard. I say bastardized because I'm sizing way too much and gas checking where I don't want to. But it's working as a bore rider and I attribute a lot of its accuracy to that feature.
Right now I'm reading about Paul Jones, Creedmoor, Money Bullets, the Snover and about reduced driving bands and don't know enough to make a good first choice. I frequently find something I like and have Tom at Accurate work on any changes I want.
So I'll start with these questions.
First would be where to use reduced driving bands? If I have little or no freebore, are they a mute point? Same for a flatter transition (say anywhere from 18 degrees to 4 degrees) to the groove diameter - are reduced driving bands still useful in that case?
Another driving band question - if I were to modify a Snover to have some portion of the nose cut as a bore rider (not certain if I should go .400 or one or two thousands under) would the reduced driving bands still have a function?
I'd like to start close to a 400gr bullet (chamber yet to be cut).

I'm thinking about a reamer ground to length for Starline 40-65, with a cylindrical neck of .430 for a length of .500 and with the shallow taper as mentioned. I don't like the 45 degree transition even though I know they are widely appreciated.
Thanks in advance for help ventured.

[country gent]

In my 40-65 Im shooting the Nasa bullet from a mould made by Bernie Roweles at Old West moulds with good results it is bore riding nose 1 very adequate grease groove and a short driving section. Slug your barrel and if possible have mould cut .001-.002 under for nose portion. WIth Black powder fouling after a few rounds can e an issue with snug fitting noses. I use SPG or emmerts with this bullet and it does good thru the summer months even. I have used the 400 grn lyman snoover and this bullet mostly. Just picked up a PP 420 grn mould to try.

[Skipper]

John, check over at Shiloh. There are a bunch of .40 shooters over there

http://www.shilohrifle.com/forums/

[SgtDog0311]

Country Gent, thanks for the input. I have a mold by that fellah so good lead to follow. On the size of the bore rider nose I wasn't sure of the conventional wisdom on size. I know my 40-63 engraves but it takes considerable thumb pressure to chamber too. If black powder makes that worse then I can see why you recommend smaller that bore size.

Skipper I'll try and work up the nerve. A few of those rascals over there sure can get argumentative with little or no provoking. Brief searches has kinda turned me off to that site. I'll give it another shot but gotta say, have deep respect for guys like Lead Pot, TexasMac and others here.

[Skipper]

Country Gent, thanks for the input. I have a mold by that fellah so good lead to follow. On the size of the bore rider nose I wasn't sure of the conventional wisdom on size. I know my 40-63 engraves but it takes considerable thumb pressure to chamber too. If black powder makes that worse then I can see why you recommend smaller that bore size.

Skipper I'll try and work up the nerve. A few of those rascals over there sure can get argumentative with little or no provoking. Brief searches has kinda turned me off to that site. I'll give it another shot but gotta say, have deep respect for guys like Lead Pot, TexasMac and others here.

Only if you let them. Slap 'em upside the head if they get too uppity. :-D

[John Boy]

There are two 40-65 bullets:
* Dan Theodore's Money Bullet http://www.bigskycastbullets.com/images/1035a.jpg
* Saeco 740 ... http://www.midwayusa.com/product/175147/saeco-1-cavity-magnum-bullet-mold-740-40-caliber-408-410-diameter-410-grain-semi-point

[rr2241tx]

I've been casting and reloading for ten or twelve calibers, some in duplicate rifles, for a while now but it's come time to get consider single shots, this time in BP.
So I'm looking for a starting point. One of the favorites I use now is a bastardized 370gr 405 caliber bullet I've been shooting in a 40-63 Ballard. I say bastardized because I'm sizing way too much and gas checking where I don't want to. But it's working as a bore rider and I attribute a lot of its accuracy to that feature.
Right now I'm reading about Paul Jones, Creedmoor, Money Bullets, the Snover and about reduced driving bands and don't know enough to make a good first choice. I frequently find something I like and have Tom at Accurate work on any changes I want.
So I'll start with these questions.
First would be where to use reduced driving bands? If I have little or no freebore, are they a mute point? Same for a flatter transition (say anywhere from 18 degrees to 4 degrees) to the groove diameter - are reduced driving bands still useful in that case?
Another driving band question - if I were to modify a Snover to have some portion of the nose cut as a bore rider (not certain if I should go .400 or one or two thousands under) would the reduced driving bands still have a function?
I'd like to start close to a 400gr bullet (chamber yet to be cut).

I'm thinking about a reamer ground to length for Starline 40-65, with a cylindrical neck of .430 for a length of .500 and with the shallow taper as mentioned. I don't like the 45 degree transition even though I know they are widely appreciated.
Thanks in advance for help ventured.
So, are you asking for help getting a bullet for your Ballard 40-63 Everlasting or are you asking for a bullet for 40-65 Winchester? 40-65 Winchester will not clean up a 40-63 chamber. I shoot a .406 plain base bullet from an Ideal #6 tong tool that weighs 317 gr in 30:1 in my #5 Pacific. Most current 40-65s have 400/408 barrels and shoot best with a 410 bullet. A Saeco 740 is a good place to start in your desired weight range. Bore riding bullets are not necessarily required for good BP results as the small additional charge they allow doesn't get you much in terms of increased muzzle velocity. PTG has a good 40-65 reamer that has a .500 cylindrical neck.

[SgtDog0311]

Thanks John Boy... I'll look those over.

I can muddy the water pretty good rr2241tx. Sorry about that!
It's the 40-65 I'm after. I'm having John Taylor reline a Ballard for me and working on both chamber and bullet options. Probably need to settle the chamber design soon but that pushes me towards bullet decisions.
I brought up my 40-63 just to say it's made me partial to a bore rider. I'll use the bullet I have for that one for the time being but will hopefully utilize some lessons learned with the 40-65.
My Ballard Pacific in 40-63 has a .410 groove diameter. My Marlin 1895 in 40-65 is .408 and Mr Taylor says the liner for the Ballard is .400/.408.
I have been looking at this thread since I posted:http://castboolits.gunloads.com/archive/index.php/t-219569.htmlBut most of it was specific to the 45 caliber. I did pick up some diagrams though.
I guess the big question is which would be best for the chamber as I've described it.
My first inclination is towards a 4* transition. Does that change whether or not you'd seek reduced bands or want a bore riding front end? I don't know!
btw, I have looked at a few PTG reamers. Have those on my desktop. I recall they either had .435 necks and or 45* transitions.

[SgtDog0311]

Don't have any Saeco molds - like the look of that 740!

[.22-10-45]

I think the use of tapered/reduced forward driving bands is to allow the bullet to be seated further out for increased powder capacity. Though inhanced bore alignment is also a plus. Let me tell you of my experience this last summer with a real bore-rider. I had just gotten everything together for first trials with a recently purchased original Ballard A-1 Mid-Range in .40-63 Everlasting. This rifle was cut for paper-patch. Bore dia. is .404" with a groove dia. of .4094" .0027" deep grooves. I needed fire-formed cases and I wasn't too sure of my P.P. skills so I used an Ideal .406150 330gr. cast 40-1 lead/tin. I pan lubed with SPG leaving dia. as cast, .406. Seated over a 1/16" veg. fibre wad and 70gr. Swiss 1 1/2...I wasn't expecting much in the accuracy dept..but these were only fire-form loads anyway. I seated only last band in case so whole bullet was into bore..(this rifle doesn't have any kind of throat or leade..rifling begins right at chamber end). Seating case in chamber gave a nice firm resistance..but very easy with thumb pressure. Imagine my surprise when the first 5 shots I had ever fired from this rifle cut a ragged 1" hole at 100yds.! 1 barely damp patch was pushed thru after each shot..chamber swabbed dry but bore left damp. No leading whatsoever. There is much to be said of the bumping ability of a black powder charge!

[SgtDog0311]

.22-10-45, cool story! 40-1 is pretty soft but I'd never venture a guess to how 'much' it would bump up. I've got .408 mold that might be a good candidate to try something similar. Wouldn't need near as much as you did.

I formed 405 cases for my 40-63 but inside-neck reamed to shoot groove diameter .410. Accuracy is good though ( not 1 ragged hole at 100yds good) but considering the molds I'm using still plenty of room for improvement.

Someday plan on another batch of brass and some bore+ diameter paper patch. I think the numbers would work with the paper thickness I have. The list of planned project grows!

I think this 40-65 is gonna have my attention for near term.

[Major stuph]

I have Saeco, double cavity molds, in both .45 and .40 (745 & 740). Once up to temp. they case within .5 to 1 grain spread. Sometimes I get a run of 40% for 538.0 gr. weight (30-1). They are very accurate in both my Shilohs (45-70 & 40-65) and in my 40-65 Douglas barreled RRB. I shoot Target class, 2,3, and 600 yds. My Hoch molds in 40 & 45 are about a tie for accuracy, but double cavity mold, need I say more. I have indexed one cavity in the 45 Saeco and never saw the difference on paper with either cavity. Both bore riding and I have about 4-5,000 casts in each of the Saecos. If you see daylight in the mold halves of a Saeco just gently stone down the concave portion of the indexing areas. It will eventually develop a slight burr over time. This burr will separate the two halves about a .001 or 2. Another thing I learn over the years of casting for BPCR don't hit the sprue plate with wooden stick, mallet, or whatever. Just take the palm of your gloved hand just push it oven. I believe that using my wooden stick is the reason that I got the burrs.
Hold the X ring and get a bad 10 at worst.
Carl L.

[SgtDog0311]

Carl, Thanks for the input. Been a while. And I picked up another Ballard in 40-65 since I posted here. A Cody this time. Oh, and I got my reline back so the chamber is finally decided on with that one and now I have two 40-65s with slightly different chamber. Both are 16 twist. I've shot a couple different bullets in the reline and have a Paul Jones mold I picked up on ASSRA for the Cody. Got some loaded and ready to shoot. The PJ may be a little long for the twist but I'm working to find that out now. Soon as the cold lifts I'll be back to the range for more load development. Still have my eye on the Saeco though, but will probably prove out the Paul Jones and another I had cut before I decide on that and a BACO mold. Also have a Snover to toss in the mix. Thanks for sharing your experience.

[country gent]

I just piicked up a Baco 425grn money nose thats showing good in initial tests. It seats alot deeper into the case than the Nasa or snover costing some powder room but its running at around 1150 fps and very good accuracy.

[SgtDog0311]

Country gent, sent you a PM.