Slow Rust Bluing question

[Hannibal]

I have a question that I hope an experienced slow rust bluer can answer. I recently used Andy's Slow Rust Blue to refinish a revolver. Overall, I'm quite pleased with the result. However, I can see a 'copper' color in places in the finish, particularly when the pistol is viewed in sunlight. I presume it is something I'm doing wrong, but I've no idea where to begin changing things to be rid of it.

Any assistance provided will be greatly appreciated.

[rking22]

I'm sure someone with more experience will come along shortly, but for the meantime.. What are you using for your water supply? I have seen some issues when not using "good water". I used rain water on my last project, a prewar Iver SxS, and it came out very well. I have no experience with the product you reference, I use Laurel Mountain Forge. Pics might be helpful if it will show up???

[Hannibal]

I used distilled water. I live along a gravel road covered with limestone. Rain water around here usually leaves all sorts of dirty water spots on things left outside.
I have been in contact with the maker of the solution and his suggestion is to give the piece more time to rust before boiling/carding. I have another project coming up, so hopefully this is the solution to my problem. I'll post here the results of this technique refinement. Might be a few weeks to a month before I'll have it done though.

[rking22]

That is undoubtedly the best choice, I was experimenting to see where the boundries may be for future reference. Looking forward to your update.

[northern smith]

I have been using plumbrown and they state that it must not bee rubbed on the surface, just a quick sweep, and then let it rest until carding. Whith this product i ve seen copper coulors when i have messed up.
Hope this can help.

[Hannibal]

What do you use for an applicator? I've been using a cotton ball wrung-out almost dry and it is very difficult to get coverage with one light pass.

[northern smith]

I have used anything from cottonballs to linencloth. It all works. The thing seems to bee is, do not overwork things. But what I know is the plumbrown thing.
Do not rub over the surfice just sweep across, the first times there might not happen that much. And don't touch with bare skin. But just keep at it and you will have a ygood start. Then just card the whole surface whith oilfree steelwool. If you have to, degresse it with acetone.
You will have to start with a piece that has not touched your skin, and if it has treat the metal with chalk or acetone.
I'm having a hard time to reply. Sitting with the phone . I hope this can help you. There might bee others who will chime in with other exeriances.

[Vopie]

Copper color tells me the solution is to strong, try diluting with distilled water. Also maybe "bad Water" in the boil. I use a cheap 1" foam brush. squeeze out on side of dish, if you can shake any out there's to much on the brush. light stroke full length don't stop, over lap, or re-brush. Less is more with rust blue.

[Hannibal]

Interesting. I'll try a foam brush. Thank you, Gents.

[Lead Fred]

When did the term Browning get replaced by rust bluing, it aint blue, its brown.....

dang libtards

[Hannibal]

The color of the finished product I am asking about is not brown, but black.

I'll stop right there.

[Dragonheart]

The best gun blue I have ever found is sold by Brownells and is the Oxpho-Blue Creme. You don't even need to degrease the steel, but it helps. Rub it on for a deep dark blue finish. Then coat the surface with wheel bearing grease and let it set overnight. The next day wipe off the grease and you will have a deep even blue job that looks like a hot blue. I buff the the steel first with white cake so I end up with a deep shiney surface.,lue surface.

[Bodean98]

Hannibal,
What level of polish did you take the steel too? In my experience I got "copper" color when the polish was too fine. Is it all over the piece or in just a few places? Some of my first attempts were polished on a wheel to 800 grit and did not take the bluing well at all. I now go no farther than 400 and usually stop at 240 grit. I have even gone as coarse as 150 and achieved good results. There are many differnt thoughts on this but this is what worked for me.

P.S. I am not a pro, just a lowly hobbyist.

[LAGS]

@ Dragonheart.
There is no Cold Blue that will Hold Up as well as a Slow Rust Blue.
The cold blue may look good, and like a Hot Blue finish, but it will not last like a Slow Rust will.
I too have had one issue with a Copper color, on a 1909 Argie.
I just Re-bead blasted it with a little Corser grit media, and it Rust Blued it again with no problem.
I was told by a Former Instructor that the media I was using on the other Mausers with good results , was not agressive enough on the Harder Better Metal used in the Argintine Mauser.

[Hannibal]

Hannibal,
What level of polish did you take the steel too? In my experience I got "copper" color when the polish was too fine. Is it all over the piece or in just a few places? Some of my first attempts were polished on a wheel to 800 grit and did not take the bluing well at all. I now go no farther than 400 and usually stop at 240 grit. I have even gone as coarse as 150 and achieved good results. There are many differnt thoughts on this but this is what worked for me.

P.S. I am not a pro, just a lowly hobbyist.

The copper color is just in a few rather small places. Hit or miss.

This is my first large piece, and I sanded it down to 320 grit and stopped. Made sure the paper was still pretty 'sharp' and not 320 acting like 500, if you get my meaning.

[Bodean98]

What you described sounds good.
LAGS stated that the harder steels are more difficult to get to take the rust and I have found that to be true also. Perhaps try a few more cycles of rusting/boiling/carding and see if it will even out.
The few instances of spotting I have encountered were due to an uneven polish and/or not getting the steel clean enough.
Hope this helps.

[oldred]

Early on when I first tried rust bluing I was sorely disappointed with the results, this was on a receiver made of 4140 steel. I too was getting the Copper colored spots resulting in a mottled look in bright light but it looked "ok" in artificial light indoors, several times I sanded it down and started over trying to eliminate this problem. Then after a few tries it occurred to me that the spots were always in the same place indicating an uneven alloying of the steel which resulted uneven rusting, I gave up on that one and hot blued it! I have since used the rust blue process with great success and have never encountered that problem again but I did learn that some steel alloys don't take to rust bluing very well, especially the 4140/4150 alloys with their high Nickel content. This is not to say that 4140/4150 can't be rust blued but apparently it can be a "hit-or-miss" situation so it could be that you are doing everything right and the problem might be with the steel itself, if you try again make a note of where the mis-colored spots are and see if they occur in the same place(s).

[Dragonheart]

Ok, for all you dis-believers that are so quick to judge, I am posting a few photos of guns I did several years ago with the Oxpho-Cream. This is not the liquid water **** that most of you have used for years, and yes those don't work! I have paid for hot blue jobs that didn't look as good or last like what I have done in my garage with a few basic tools. My college major was Industrial Engineering so I am no stranger to tools and metal.
In answer to how I prep my metal I sand to take out mill marks and general roughness of the steel, then using a cloth wheel buffer and white cake I polish to a high sheen. This give me the deep shiney blue that I like. Granted some like it rough and dull and some want painted finishes, so to each his own. The first photo is an old High Standard that the original bluing had completely worn away. The second photos is a M-1 Garand that was in GI used condition. Unfortunately the photos don't do the guns justice, but you get the idea.
152107152108152109152110

[LAGS]

@ Dragonheart
I will have to try some of that.
But I have seen many a product that have come on the market, that were easy, and gave a shiny blue that looked like a dood Hot Blue.
But I have yet to see any cold blue that holds up to Holster wear or really gives the rust protection that a Good Rust blue will or second a good Hot blue will.
But good and better stuff comes out every day.
I will not give an opinion on a product unless I actually tried it already.
But in My personal experience, the Rust blue is the most Durable for both Wear and Rust protection, second only to Parkerizing. IMO
But many a product Beat Rust Blue on "Looks", I cant argue with that.

[Hannibal]

I will have to add a 'DITTO". Thanks for the suggestion.


@ Dragonheart
I will have to try some of that.
But I have seen many a product that have come on the market, that were easy, and gave a shiny blue that looked like a dood Hot Blue.
But I have yet to see any cold blue that holds up to Holster wear or really gives the rust protection that a Good Rust blue will or second a good Hot blue will.
But good and better stuff comes out every day.
I will not give an opinion on a product unless I actually tried it already.
But in My personal experience, the Rust blue is the most Durable for both Wear and Rust protection, second only to Parkerizing. IMO
But many a product Beat Rust Blue on "Looks", I cant argue with that.

[Dragonheart]

Fact is, I have not seen any blue or coating that will hold up to holster wear over the long haul; hard chrome plate probably the best or satin nickel, but maybe it's just not as noticeable. The black coating on my Kimber Pro Carry HD wore down at contact points in short order. The tenifer coating on my glocks holds up better than anything I own, but even it wears at the muzzle. If you shoot in the IDPA and practice you draw from a holster quite a lot. Since all bluing is just controlled oxidation whether it is a hot or cold process no blue is going to hold up to constant rubbing, but the nice thing about the Oxpho is it is so easy to restore and it blends back in. For an inexpensive, good looking blue job I haven't found anything that comes close.

[nekshot]

I read all these threads on blueing with interest. I have been wanting to get some oxpho cream ever since they introduced it. One time and only one time I had a A&B barrel in the white and i chucked it in the lathe turning medium speed, I sanded it with 220 emery cloth, cleaned a couple times(barrel was warm) and took a cotton ball soaking in liquid oxpho I applied one end to other and the finish is superb and still is 6 years later. I never got those results with it since. I have found after 1st application of oxpho I immediatly use Vans Blue and it always covers where oxpho didn't, sometimes give it a couple applications. I love this blue voodoo stuff!

[Dragonheart]

The Oxpho liquid has never worked for me. I only recommend the cream. I sand out to 400 grit then polish to to a high sheen with white cake. I wipe the blue on and help it get a deeper blue with a 0000 steel wool rub. Then I coat everything in wheel bearing grease and leave overnight. This intensifies the oxidation process and gives that deep hot blue look. The next day I just wipe off the grease, leaving a light coat on, as bluing is a controlled rust.

[oldred]

This intensifies the oxidation process and gives that deep hot blue look.

Since grease/oil holds rust at bay by sealing it off from the Oxygen and I have never heard of grease CAUSING oxidation/rust I would be interested in hearing just how wheel bearing grease can "intensify" the oxidation process??????

[LAGS]

When I do a Slow rust blue, after the last rusting and Boiling, I do not card off the metal.
I leave the black powder on the metal, and coat the metal Libberally with light machine Oil like 3 in 1 with a soft tooth brush.
Then I leave the oil and black oxcidation on the metal , Overnight.
The next morning, I wipe off the metal with a soft cloth, and you are done.
The oil removes the black dust on the barrel, and the light Penetrating oil stops any fine rust that may want to appear.
It seems to come out a little Darker when I do it that way, but probably just from the Black dust not being removed Aggressivly with even a Soft Carding Brush or Steel wool.
It also lets you get into every nook and cranny and get all the black dust off Evenly.

[oldred]

When I do a Slow rust blue, after the last rusting and Boiling, I do not card off the metal.
I leave the black powder on the metal, and coat the metal Libberally with light machine Oil like 3 in 1 with a soft tooth brush.
Then I leave the oil and black oxcidation on the metal , Overnight.
The next morning, I wipe off the metal with a soft cloth, and you are done.
The oil removes the black dust on the barrel, and the light Penetrating oil stops any fine rust that may want to appear.
It seems to come out a little Darker when I do it that way, but probably just from the Black dust not being removed Aggressivly with even a Soft Carding Brush or Steel wool.
It also lets you get into every nook and cranny and get all the black dust off Evenly.

I think I will try that trick the next time around, never thought about doing that before but it makes a lot of sense when thinking about it. That type of surface as opposed to a slick surface would hold a much thicker coat of oil that would, I assume, tend to wick into the oxidized layer easier than a polished surface from the carding. That would be my theory anyway and it's definitely worth a try, thanks for tip!!!!

[Dragonheart]

Since grease/oil holds rust at bay by sealing it off from the Oxygen and I have never heard of grease CAUSING oxidation/rust I would be interested in hearing just how wheel bearing grease can "intensify" the oxidation process??????

No grease doesn't cause oxidation, not what I said, but the oxidation process doesn't stop and if you just leave the treated bare metal the next day you will end up with a light coat of red rust, not what you want. So I have found that wheel bearing grease over the blue seals in the oxidation and the process continues giving a darker color, but the grease protects the metal from forming a red rust and you can wipe the grease off the next day or next week, you parts are protected. My point is the Oxpho Cream is easy to use, inexpensive, will do a lot of guns and gives a bluing that rivals much more expensive processes.

[oldred]

Red rust IS oxidized iron (oxidation) and sealing off the air, and thus the oxygen, with grease will stop the oxidation process. If the oxygen is sealed off then no oxygen reaction can take place, since the oxidation process is a chemical reaction between oxygen in the air and the iron then sealing it off with a coating of oil or grease PREVENTS oxidation not intensifies it!

I have no doubt you are getting a darker finish from the chemical reaction of the solution but sealing it with grease does not INTENSIFY the oxidation process!

[waksupi]

If you do not neutralize a browning solution with something like baking soda, it WILL continue to rust.

[Dragonheart]

OK, I give up. I made an effort to provide information on a product I use, how I use it and the results I get, so for those that read my post, have kept an open mind and wish to try the product I think you will be pleased. For those that have never used the product, have no intention of doing so and obviously know better, please continue to do whatever you have been doing.

[oldred]

If you do not neutralize a browning solution with something like baking soda, it WILL continue to rust.

I discovered that one a long time ago when I was still using cold blues, the directions all said to rinse well with water and oil but I still could not stop the rust. Thinking that maybe the acid needed to be neutralized I gave the soda water a shot and that solved the problem nicely, I still don't understand why the manufacturers don't recommend this very simple and very effective step.

[oldred]

OK, I give up. I made an effort to provide information on a product I use, how I use it and the results I get, so for those that read my post, have kept an open mind and wish to try the product I think you will be pleased. For those that have never used the product, have no intention of doing so and obviously know better, please continue to do whatever you have been doing.


No need to get upset I was only attempting to point out a misconception about how cold blue works. I am no stranger to cold blues and the process, the coloring from cold bluing is far different than either rust blue or caustic hot blue and is much more so a result a chemical reaction with the iron rather than the type of oxidation from the two traditional methods. This is important because rust blue and hot blue actually produce an "etched" type of oxidation layer that is actually part of the surface rather than just a chemical reaction with the cold blue that is more like a stain than true oxidation bluing, oxidation is only a small part of cold blue and that's why it is not nearly as durable. As far as the point about the grease, I never disagreed that applying a heavy layer of grease could lead to a darker blue just that the reason could not possibly be due to the grease intensifying oxidation since it's a well known fact that grease and oils do exactly the opposite.

[LAGS]

@dragonheart.
You convinced me on your first post to try the product that you recomend.
But many of us go way back and have always had dismal results with any Cold Bluing Process.
But I have about ten guns in the works right now, so I will give that stuff a try, and I will even do it the way you stated with the Grease Cure to see how that turns out, and if it does better than the instruction recomendations say.
If it works, then I give a Rat's patootie why it works, and am not concerned about some Egg Head Scientific explanation.
Same with the Penetrating Oil cure that I do on the Slow Rust rather than the last carding.
I came up with that by accident, when I Oiled a barrel because I forgot that I hadn't carded it yet.
Why argue with Sucess.

[Hannibal]

Please do. I'm quite interested in this myself. One day I hope to have the $$$ for hot bluing tanks. Meanwhile, I plan to keep my options open.


@dragonheart.
You convinced me on your first post to try the product that you recomend.
But many of us go way back and have always had dismal results with any Cold Bluing Process.
But I have about ten guns in the works right now, so I will give that stuff a try, and I will even do it the way you stated with the Grease Cure to see how that turns out, and if it does better than the instruction recomendations say.
If it works, then I give a Rat's patootie why it works, and am not concerned about some Egg Head Scientific explanation.
Same with the Penetrating Oil cure that I do on the Slow Rust rather than the last carding.
I came up with that by accident, when I Oiled a barrel because I forgot that I hadn't carded it yet.
Why argue with Sucess.

[Hannibal]

And for the record, I believe I know what caused my problem. I was not overly concerned with multiple passes on my last project. My focus was on even coverage. So, I was swabbing all over the part multiple times to get even coverage. At the expense of the prior bluing cycles.

Posted this for those who are having similar issues. Hope this helps.

[johnson1942]

when i boil the parts i put bakeing soda in the water. comes out perfect. some posted some where on cast bullets that floor wax is better than oil to rub into a boiled rust blue piece with the water haveing soda in it. ive tried both oil and paste floor wax and i think they are right and the paste floor wax is better. it stands to reason that a acid need a alkaline to netralize it.

[LAGS]

I got the money for a Hot Bluing set up.
I aint got the Room, or the time to use one.
Maybe when I retire and build a 5000 square foor shop.

[Hannibal]

Planning to put mine in an unused chicken coop. $$$$ is the issue here.

[LAGS]

What did you do with the money you got when you sold the chickens ?

[Hannibal]

Didn't sell 'em. Ate 'em. :bigsmyl2:

[LAGS]

Need to get you some Geese.
Maybe one will lay Golden Eggs

[Hannibal]

I reckon so.

[oldred]

Well a chicken coop should provide the necessary ventilation!

If you live in farm country then locating the materials should be easy enough and a bit cheaper than buying bluing salts plus no delivery hassles. I got the Sodium Hydroxide from a local hardware store and the Ammonium Nitrate at the local Farmers CO-OP, Potassium Nitrate could also be used but might be hard to get and expensive in large enough quantities however. The bluing salts from Brownells does an EXCELLENT job but can be a bit spendy for occasional jobs but for a frequent refinisher and show quality results it's probably the better way to go. The Brownells formula I used was a small amount given to me by a friend that had it and was enough to make a small batch with which I managed to do a High Wall type receiver and barrel and then had to dispose of it after it solidified from non-use, the homemade formula was nearly as good however but to me is just a bit "blacker" but then that could just be a difference in metals or technique. Either way as long as the metal is properly prepared it will result in an excellent finish that no type of cold blue can ever come close to duplicating. Rust blue is also a great looking finish and even more durable than hot blue but if a deep shinny blue is desired then hot blue is the answer, also hot blue seems to do better than rust blue on large flat surfaces or at least that's been my experience.

[Hannibal]

Most people I have discussed it with prefer hot blue on pistols, and just about hands down on revolvers. But for now I make do as I can. I've no hot bluing equipment at all right now, so the saving continues. 'Cept the chicken coop, of course.

[oldred]

I looked at a set-up a fella had that he wanted $600 for and I'm sure it was a bargain for a professional rig like that but I am a die-hard DIYer so I just made my own. $60 worth of 16 ga steel, $28 dollars for some brass burner nozzles from Ebay and a few pieces of black pipe and fittings from Lowes plus a piece of old torch hose I had was all it took for the main tank. The pre-bath/rinse tank was made from a small plate of steel I already had but that wouldn't have cost much either, the $28 dollars worth of gas nozzles was enough for both tanks. Of course this requires fabrication and welding of the tanks but that's simple enough and shouldn't cost too much to have someone else do it if you don't have the means and the gas supply is simply a Bar-B-Q tank. I have no idea if building one is an option for you or not but I mentioned this as an example of something to think about, there are several ways of doing this and if a person is a good scrounger it need not be expensive.


One thing you don't want to scrimp on is safety gear! Hot bluing can be VERY dangerous and cause serious injury or even be lethal if a person don't take the proper precautions, it doesn't have to be and there is no reason to be afraid of it but it does demand respect and a full understanding of the hazards! For instance splashing even a tiny amount in your eyes can lead to instant blindness, there is no time to rinse it out as the damage will occur almost instantly! Even the cold solution on your skin can do serious damage but when heated it can be very dangerous indeed so certain precautions are absolutely necessary and not just a good idea. Proper clothing, eye protection, gloves and making sure the equipment is secure and a person should not have anything to worry about but this is one undertaking where a person should never take a chance with the attitude that "I will just be careful", being careful may not be enough and this stuff is extremely unforgiving of mistakes!

[Dragonheart]

@dragonheart.
You convinced me on your first post to try the product that you recomend.
But many of us go way back and have always had dismal results with any Cold Bluing Process.
But I have about ten guns in the works right now, so I will give that stuff a try, and I will even do it the way you stated with the Grease Cure to see how that turns out, and if it does better than the instruction recomendations say.
If it works, then I give a Rat's patootie why it works, and am not concerned about some Egg Head Scientific explanation.
Same with the Penetrating Oil cure that I do on the Slow Rust rather than the last carding.
I came up with that by accident, when I Oiled a barrel because I forgot that I hadn't carded it yet.
Why argue with Sucess.

I wish you success with you blue jobs, but Brownells sells the liquid also so make sure you order the Oxpho Cream. Regardless of why, the oxidation/reaction or whatever you want to call it, appears to continue and this is why I believe a light rust tends to develop the next day. When I first applied heavy grease it was my intention to protect the metal from that light rust. The next day when I went to put things back together at first I thought I was imagining the darker color, but that is what happens. If you just wipe off the grease leaving a lite coat, no rust. I haven't tried soda to neutralize, but the idea sounds solid. I think we all are looking for an easy way to protect and beautify our firearms without breaking the bank; this works for me.

[oldred]

I wish you success with you blue jobs, but Brownells sells the liquid also so make sure you order the Oxpho Cream. Regardless of why, the oxidation/reaction or whatever you want to call it, appears to continue and this is why I believe a light rust tends to develop the next day. When I first applied heavy grease it was my intention to protect the metal from that light rust. The next day when I went to put things back together at first I thought I was imagining the darker color, but that is what happens. If you just wipe off the grease leaving a lite coat, no rust. I haven't tried soda to neutralize, but the idea sounds solid. I think we all are looking for an easy way to protect and beautify our firearms without breaking the bank; this works for me.


It was not my intent to bash you for what you said and I did not doubt what you said about the darker color, just the reason for it, but when we are discussing methods and means of doing things it shouldn't cause hurt feelings if someone questions what someone says as fact when it obviously appears to be contradictory, after all we are talking about the process in order to learn. What was contradictory is that the grease was applied to stop the oxidation process (the red rust which is oxidation) but then you stated that the grease intensified the oxidation process instead of stopping it, obviously it can't be both ways so why the grease works is open to question and we would all benefit if we can understand why? Discussion about why it works and maybe ways to improve on even that should be a goal here, I for one was curious how it works since it apparently works better than just light oil or simply neutralizing with a base such as soda.

[Whiterabbit]

Hi Hannibal, my two cents:

I've done exactly three "jobs" with rust blue, so recogize that is the experience level here. But I HAVE seen the copper you are referring to.

I can toggle it with cleanliness/chemical prep. It sounds anticlimactic, but that is exactly the difference here between my "coppery" blues and deep blues. Will get pics later today if I remember, and after that if I do not.

Two chemical purities in particular: One, the metal prep itself. All the oil (and I use alot of that stuff working up to bluing) has to be out. If I don;t get ridiculously anal about particle control and oil cleaning, the blue color is tainted. Two, the boil cleanliness. I know you said you used distilled, but what about the pan? Was it pre-contaminated? a little soap left over from the pre-washing? some "salts" that got in from something else? some oil that was left behind on your gloves, then got into your boil? Excessive analness with respect to that boil water resulted in a much better color conversion on my latest project.

The factors that seem to be independent: final sanding grit, metal quality, blue-chemical application methodology, carding strategy, etc.
(though I will say that this time around I mostly carded with degreased steel wool after application #2, but I do not think that made the difference. But I was super-anal about degreasing that wool too)

[Hannibal]

Whiterabbit - I would like to think I'm being careful enough about keeping things clean, but there have been several things suggested that I may have done wrong, and cleanliness is one of them.

I have a shotgun barrel to do pretty quick, so I'll make some adjustments and see how it goes.

Thanks for all the suggestions so far, it is appreciated.

[Whiterabbit]

I absolutely understand. I felt as though the anality I was taking prepping my boil pot etc compared to the previous job (not to mention the metal I was bluing!) was beyond excessive, but the result was much better.....

Maybe I need better pictures than this, I am no photographer, but these were handy on my phone:

http://castboolits.gunloads.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=152366&d=1446486285

38 cal insert for a 20 ga shotgun. The color is uniform, but looks like a decent muzzleloader job, not a "weatherby rifle" type color. The blue is not that blue, frankly. As might be expected, for a simple plug less effort was put into chemical cleanliness, and it certainly shows.

http://castboolits.gunloads.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=152367&d=1446486298

Blurry ruger revolver parts. The blue is far blacker, the finish nicer. Much nicer. It's really no comparison. It's probably not a Bowen-quality finish, it's my third job. But going all-in on cleanliness prep (far beyond what I thought was rational) yielded the best color to date.

-------

edit: those pictures are terrible, I need to do better than that.

[Hannibal]

It's difficult to appreciate the finish on any firearm in a photograph, IMHO. Nuances can often only be seen at certain angles and often lighting plays a huge role.

That said, looks like a nice job from where I sit.

Given what I see at the gun store these days, I sometimes wonder why I try so hard. If you've been looking at the same things as myself, I'm sure you know what I'm getting at. But what does one expect with a $220 rifle, I reckon.

[Whiterabbit]

Understood and agreed...

[Dragonheart]

It was not my intent to bash you for what you said and I did not doubt what you said about the darker color, just the reason for it, but when we are discussing methods and means of doing things it shouldn't cause hurt feelings if someone questions what someone says as fact when it obviously appears to be contradictory, after all we are talking about the process in order to learn. What was contradictory is that the grease was applied to stop the oxidation process (the red rust which is oxidation) but then you stated that the grease intensified the oxidation process instead of stopping it, obviously it can't be both ways so why the grease works is open to question and we would all benefit if we can understand why? Discussion about why it works and maybe ways to improve on even that should be a goal here, I for one was curious how it works since it apparently works better than just light oil or simply neutralizing with a base such as soda.

You apparently have misunderstood what I am saying or I am not making myself clear. When I first applied the grease it was to stop the red rust from forming on the blued surface, which appears by the next day or less on freshly blued metal, I call this red rust oxidation. Bluing is know to be a controlled oxidation process, but you can call it chemical reaction or whatever. My points are simple: the Oxpho Cream bluing rivals hot blue in looks. Is it as good as hot blue, maybe not? Others can argue that point, but it looks good, and protects the steel as well as any hot blue I have had done. It's cheap and can be done by anyone with a little mechanical ability. The grease I apply does intensifies the color as apparently the reaction continues under the grease. The grease keeps the steel for forming the light coat of rust, and this was the reason I applied the grease in the first place. Since I have never tried a soda bath I have no comments, but would think it would be worth trying. Hopefully, this give you the answer to your questions.

[oldred]

I think the confusion is cold bluing is not an oxidized layer like rust or caustic blue and even the manufacturer refers to Oxpho Blue as a chemical finish, cold blue is a colorization that is the result of a combination of chemicals rather than a layer of iron oxide and that's why the wear properties are not as good. Oxpho blue liquid is the only one I have used and there is no doubt for me that it's by far the best of the cold blues and for depth of color will compare to a good rust blue job for appearance but where it comes up short is durability. Tough as it is for a cold blue it's still a chemical colorization vs a layer of hard iron oxide but properly cared for it can last for years and is easy to apply. I especially like the fact it contains detergents that allow it to be used without worry of slight oil contamination, that stuff will do a good job right through a a light oil on the surface -they claimed it would so I tried it and it does work!

[Whiterabbit]

It's difficult to appreciate the finish on any firearm in a photograph, IMHO. Nuances can often only be seen at certain angles and often lighting plays a huge role.

That said, looks like a nice job from where I sit.

Given what I see at the gun store these days, I sometimes wonder why I try so hard. If you've been looking at the same things as myself, I'm sure you know what I'm getting at. But what does one expect with a $220 rifle, I reckon.

We already have an understanding of photography, particularly when the images are taken using a 1-megapixel celular potato, but I did try to get a better shot, all in the same frame to see the color differences.

http://o.aolcdn.com/hss/storage/fss/351e120ed31f2c3994537cd47f71323b

The only difference here is how overboard I went on degreasing and prepping the boil water for purity. Everything else was equal.

[Hannibal]

Ah! Now that is indeed night and day.

I can't help but notice the revolver has a very nice 'sheen' to it. VERY nice. I'd be pleased as punch.

What grit did you final sand your parts with, if you don't mind my asking, and what did you use for your final carding? I suspect the answer lies somewhere within . . . .

[leftiye]

I have never gotten rust after using Oxpho blue. No oil or grease has been used after bluing. I wipe the bluing off, and leave it wanting it to continue to work and get darker. I'm sure this is what you wanted to hear (not), and I can't explain it. I go over and over a bluing finish on later days to darken the finish.

P.S. I like to mix the cream with the liquid (Oxpho Blue) and make a thinner cream that spreads more evenly. IIRC Brownell's says that the Oxpho Blue will work through oils on the surface. I do however wipe with lacquer thinner.

[oldred]

IIRC Brownell's says that the Oxpho Blue will work through oils on the surface. I do however wipe with lacquer thinner.

They do say that and that's the reason I tried it, it's contrary to any other method (except one) but out of curiosity I had to try it and it does indeed work. This can be quite handy if doing a quick touch up on worn areas, just rub it in when the thin area is first noticed making it easy to keep a gun looking good!


Laurel Mountain Forge Brown/Blue slow rust formula will also work through oil, a quote from their directions,

" Degreasing is not necessary, as Barrel Brown is formulated to remove all traces of grease and oil. The barrel can even be handled with bare hands at any time during the browning process (except while still wet with solution) without affecting Barrel Brown's ability to take"

However I degreased anyway with denatured alcohol! It's my understanding that that both the LMF slow rust formula and the Oxpho Blue contain detergents to dissolve the oils but regardless I personally prefer to treat them as I would with any other product and degrease anyway as a precaution, if it's not on there it can't hurt anything so why take a chance?

[Dragonheart]

Maybe because I degrease the metal I will get rust after using Oxpho cream. I have tried the liquid and got lighter uneven blue.

Whiterabbit: As far as the steel taking on a different color after bluing I would attribute this to some form of heat treating the steel went through during the manufacture.

[oldred]

Whiterabbit: As far as the steel taking on a different color after bluing I would attribute this to some form of heat treating the steel went through during the manufacture.


Also as I found out when I first started the alloy of the steel can have a profound effect and in some ways can be worse than the heat treat effects! 4140 and 4150 can be found in a lot of modern firearms and some of the alloys are resistant to oxidation and etching agents, Nickel for instance is one of the alloys that is highly resistant. To make matters worse the alloys are not always perfectly dispersed throughout a given part and may react differently in different areas giving a mottled effect, I ran into this very thing with my first rust blue effort. The 4140HT (Heat Treated) receiver came out slightly mottled no matter which formula I used, nether the slow nor "express" blue products I tried gave a satisfactory finish so I eventually gave up and hot blued it. The hot blue came out nice and even and a deep color but then the hot caustic solution being a base is chemically just the extreme opposite of the acid solution that induces the oxidation in the rust blue process. The point is that sometimes a certain process may simply not be suitable for some parts due to the alloy they are made from, the newer the gun the more likely to run into this problem.

[Whiterabbit]

Ah! Now that is indeed night and day.

I can't help but notice the revolver has a very nice 'sheen' to it. VERY nice. I'd be pleased as punch.

What grit did you final sand your parts with, if you don't mind my asking, and what did you use for your final carding? I suspect the answer lies somewhere within . . . .

320, but the 320 are "samples" from 3M, they kinda feel a smidge rougher than 320. I would file where needed, remove the file marks with 220 (next time I will try 180, but may still settle on 220), then remove the 220 marks with 320.

The first one and a half carding cycles was done with a wire brush by hand, but after I lightly removed half of the material from the second boil I switched to degreased 0000 steel wool.

The sheen is because I finished the parts with boiled linseed oil. The oil is only about a day old there, so it might not have fully dried yet. But it definitely makes things a little "sheenier" than "dry".

I attribute the results to two changes I made. pre-treating the metal to remove all contaminates (unlike oxpho apparently, my stuff IS hyper sensitive to contamination), and making sure the boil water was as contaminate free as possible. I'm pretty confident that contaminated water is what contributed most to the insert above not being a nice dark blue.

[Hannibal]

Thank you for the information. Much to think about in this thread, and many possibilities.

[The Virginian]

I wish you success with you blue jobs, but Brownells sells the liquid also so make sure you order the Oxpho Cream. Regardless of why, the oxidation/reaction or whatever you want to call it, appears to continue and this is why I believe a light rust tends to develop the next day. When I first applied heavy grease it was my intention to protect the metal from that light rust. The next day when I went to put things back together at first I thought I was imagining the darker color, but that is what happens. If you just wipe off the grease leaving a lite coat, no rust. I haven't tried soda to neutralize, but the idea sounds solid. I think we all are looking for an easy way to protect and beautify our firearms without breaking the bank; this works for me.

With respect, we know about cold blues and the fact of the matter is they are not anywhere near as good as rust bluing or hot salt bluing. Oxpho blue cream is good for touch ups, but it does not penetrate the metal surface and is copper selinium based that causes a thin oxidation process with a slight plating of a copper oxide to give the appearance of a blue black. Cold blue guns have a garlicy smell to them because of this acid/cold rust oxidation which will not only not wear as well as a rust blue finish, but does not have the satin glow and beauty of a real slow rust blue finish. No comparison in looks by miles... Rust bluing is a totally different and a much harder wearing finish process that is used on fine rifles and shotguns, Lugers and Winchester rifles of old. Cold bluing also has a strange feel to the metal unlike the hard and smooth finish of rust, Belgian or hot salt blue. The original question was about rust bluing and not hot bluing or cold bluing.

[The Virginian]

For curing after the last carding of a rust blue on about the 7-8th cycle or turn, I wipe the part with acetone to clean any microscopic leftover black oxide and then coat it with a 50/50 mix of mineral spirits and linseed oil, set the parts to cure for 2-3 days and then wipe it off with mineral spirits with a final coat of water displacing oil or if you would rather use regular gun oil, that works too.