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View Full Version : My 9mm doesn't like .356 boolets



Kent Fowler
10-25-2015, 03:05 PM
Never thought I'd run across this. I bought an old Star 9mm Luger Super B for a beater gun and found it wouldn't chamber .356 cast. Factory chambered fine. Resized cases through a Dillon SD also passed the plop test but tried .356 124 gr. TC and .356 147 gr. RN and the case would stop anywhere from 1/8 to 3/16th from being even with the hood of the barrel. Tried myriad OAL combinations but no joy. The only round that would chamber was one that I pretty much put a roll crimp on. Tried tapping some rounds into the barrel with a small plastic hammer, just to see how much force was required to overcome the resistance in the chamber but had to remove the rounds with a small screwdriver. Finally pulled 3 factory FMJ's and ran them through the machine with my cases. Had to tinker with the crimp a tad but they chambered correctly with no problem. I surmise this is an extremely tight chamber. I might add the bore and the chamber were pristine after some scrubbing before I tried reloading. Will continue searching for my LBT push through slugs to get a bore diameter, but have suspicions the bore will be bigger than .355 so that will put paid to using cast bullets. Not going to spend any more money on this gun so I'll get some cheap j-words and shoot it for a while, then into the safe it will go. This will be a perfect gun to leave to my grand kids as all five of them can and will tear up an anvil. They're not getting any of my Colts.

Der Gebirgsjager
10-25-2015, 03:54 PM
I've got 2 of these, and both will eat just about any factory ammo. Factory jacketed bullets usually run .354-.355. I'm guessing that just the little bit extra of .356 is a wee bit too much. You said that the roll crimp did work, so that's promising. Do you have a Lee Factory Crimp die for 9mm? Lee says, and I haven't had any experience that contradicts them, that if your round will pass through the LFC die it will chamber. I've loaded cast bullets before that expanded the case near the mouth enough that they wouldn't chamber after using a taper crimp because it didn't re-resize the case back down far enough below the area of the crimp, but the LFC die has a carbide ring in it like a carbide sizer die and actually resizes the entire case again. The Stars are great pistols, and I'll bet once you get your problem solved yours will prove a great shooter.

dubber123
10-25-2015, 04:42 PM
Are you sure it is not just an instance of too much full diameter boolit seated out in front of the case and sticking in the leade of the barrel? I'm sure tight chambered 9mm's exist, I just sure haven't seen one yet ;) 3 of mine get .358", the Walther needs .359"

I really like Star autos from the few I have experience with.

flyingmonkey35
10-25-2015, 04:48 PM
Two quick questions.

Are you sizing the Boolits? Post cast?

Do they chamber in a go/nogo gauge or other gun?

Twmaster
10-25-2015, 08:00 PM
Are you sure it is not just an instance of too much full diameter boolit seated out in front of the case and sticking in the leade of the barrel? I'm sure tight chambered 9mm's exist, I just sure haven't seen one yet ;) 3 of mine get .358", the Walther needs .359"

I really like Star autos from the few I have experience with.

This is where I'd look if I were you. The shape of the ogive on the bullet could be part of the issue too. I have a CZ P-07 that will not reliably chamber the 125 grain cast bullets I got from a caster in OKC. Otherwise it eats everything fed to it including some 115 grain cast pills. My Walther PPQ chambers the 125's just fine.

Try to chamber a bullet. Make sure you look at the bullet first to ensure it's nice and smooth (or maybe even paint it with a Sharpie first). If it does not go into battery carefully remove the cartridge then inspect the bullet to see if there is any evidence of it hitting the rifling or other edges on the chamber.

Kent Fowler
10-25-2015, 08:59 PM
Are you sure it is not just an instance of too much full diameter boolit seated out in front of the case and sticking in the leade of the barrel? I'm sure tight chambered 9mm's exist, I just sure haven't seen one yet ;) 3 of mine get .358", the Walther needs .359"

I really like Star autos from the few I have experience with.

I failed to put in the first post that I inverted a bullet and seated it almost flush with the case mouth and it would not chamber, which told me I could eliminate OAL as a problem and probably start looking at the chamber. I have loaded the same Gardiner 147 gr. cast bullet, on the same Dillon machine for my daughters Sig P239 for about 5 years now and she has never experienced a FTF. As I told another gentleman who sent me a message, I've owned and reloaded for about 25 semi autos through the years, and have never experienced this type of problem on any of those guns. This is about my usual run of luck:razz:

GabbyM
10-25-2015, 09:23 PM
Both bullets you listed are deep seating bullets. when compared to a 124gr RN ball profile.
Some cases thicken starting close to the case mouth. Right under where a RN bullet would have it's base. We can see this often from a visible bulge in the case when seating bullets like Lymans 356402 and similar deep seating 122gr TC bullets. You can easily sort some brass with a calipers. You don't get an exact wall thickness reading but you can see the tapper plainly. Check your loaded rounds by laying a steel straight edge like a machinist scale along the case wall then hold up to a light. My read on this is. If you find some thinner walled brass your .356" bullets will chamber. The brass has far more deviation brand to brand than a couple thousandths.

To anyone who wishes to shoot unsorted brass. I recommend using a 124 or 122grain RN bullet loaded at least 10% under max book. But I still don't understand why anyone would load unsorted brass.

retread
10-25-2015, 09:38 PM
Mine drops right at .358 using 50-50-2 (COWW-Pb-Tin). Used in Walther 380 it has to be seated a little deeper than the RN. In a LCP it chambers fine at the longer length. Sized to .357.

rsrocket1
10-25-2015, 09:38 PM
But I still don't understand why anyone would load unsorted brass.

Because it works just fine for some of us who've slugged their barrels, sized their bullets to match the barrel and tested out loads in all sorts of brass to ensure proper cycling and chrony'ed them to make sure they are good loads.

GabbyM
10-25-2015, 11:26 PM
Because it works just fine for some of us who've slugged their barrels, sized their bullets to match the barrel and tested out loads in all sorts of brass to ensure proper cycling and chrony'ed them to make sure they are good loads.

I can see where that could work if you had two or three known brands of brass mixed together that fairly well matched up . But true unsorted where people don't even read the head stamp. Well I did that back in the seventies with almost disastrous results. after a few reloads I had some cases that would be so expanded they'd loose primers in the pistols magazine under recoil. Load was full power Blue dot. A powder that fills the case so was probably more sensitive to case capacity. Cases that seriously went over pressure were European cases that are known to be thicker base and walls. Last time I checked loads over a chrony was only three years ago. Cases were Fed, Speer, Win, Rem. I toss any foreign mil surp 9mm anymore. Since I've not seen any Lapua drift my way. Deviation between the brands was very distinct. I lost my records but I think it was the Speer that had walls unfavorable to deep seat bullets like my 122 TC ad 147 FP. I have them loaded in Federal cases. You just pick up a calipers then measure case wall thickness to find the flare depth. Takes about five seconds. You can also measure the outside diameter of loaded rounds at the bullet base. If the OP would do this with his loaded rounds that do not chamber. My bet is they are fatter than the factory rounds that do chamber.

Gunor
10-26-2015, 12:38 AM
I see you don't want to put any money into, but how about the Cylinder guy (Doug...) and have it throated?

Geoff in Oregon

farmerjim
10-26-2015, 08:16 AM
My M&P 9 will not chamber a RNFP .357 cast. It shoots fine in my other 3 9mm's. The throat is too tight. It shaves lead on ones that are forced in. It shaves some brass on .355 jwords.
I sent it off to Doug Friday.

Petrol & Powder
10-26-2015, 08:36 AM
I'm with GabbyM, based on all the info it sounds like more of a brass problem than a bullet problem. It sounds like the bullet is expanding the brass near the case mouth. I don't think the bullet is the issue but rather the tapered case wall near the case mouth. Some 9mm casings are considerably thicker than others.

bedbugbilly
10-26-2015, 09:00 AM
Do you use a cartridge gauge? Do they go in it or do they hang up? If you've figured out that it isn't the slug hitting the bore, then it's a headspace dimension issue or as mentioned, possibly thicker brass thickness behind the headspace . . . but if they fit in a cartridge gauge that is to spec . . . they should chamber.

I load 9mm and recently ran in to a similar problem using Lee 356-120-TC - I was loading them as cast. When I loaded them - I load using the Lee 4 die set - they loaded just fine. I use a cartridge gauge randomly - about every 5 rounds. They sat on the shelf for a few months and the other day I went to shoot the out of my Shield - they wouldn't work. Just enough that the pistol would not go in to full battery. I use "range brass". It got me to scratching my head as the Lyman 358-242 - 121 gr RN I loaded at the same time worked just fine. I took those with the Lee boolit in them and re-crimped them - they slid into the cartridge gauge just fine.

By all rights - they should have worked just fine. Now I'm wondering if the batch of the Lee 356-120 TC were just enough oversize "as dropped" that the base of the boolit was expanding the brass just enough when it was pulled back out of my Lee FC die that they wouldn't chamber properly.

Have you tried re-crimping any of them in a single stage to see if they'll work? My experience taught me one thing - size for my 9mm and not use "as cast". I sized some up at .357 - they worked just fine. And I'll add that I also checked the seating depth on mine to see if they were out there a tad bit too much for the pistol - they weren't. The problem was all centered around the brass and headspace.

Have you measured the case diameter at the headspace area on the ones that don't work and those that do (factory)? And measured those that do compared to the ones that don't down the full seating length of the brass? That may give you some answers as well.

Thus it is with reloading . . . no matter how many a person has stuffed or how long . . . problems can and do occur! Good luck and hope you get it solved!

mdi
10-26-2015, 01:03 PM
Because it works just fine for some of us who've slugged their barrels, sized their bullets to match the barrel and tested out loads in all sorts of brass to ensure proper cycling and chrony'ed them to make sure they are good loads.

Yep, I agree. I started reloading for revolvers and didn't reload for semi-autos until just 16 years ago, and I sorted my brass by headstamp outta habit. My revolver brass went back into the boxed quite easily, but picking up my 9mm and 45 ACP brass, they usually went into a baggie. I experimented with using unsorted brass for my semi-autos and after about 500-700 rounds loaded, shot and results recorded, i found no difference in function or accuracy (I also read a test in one gun rag with the same results). 99.9% of my 9mm and 45 ACP reloads get unsorted brass and most use "oversized" cast bullets, have zero function failures and as good accuracy as I can expect from my shooting...

Schrag4
10-26-2015, 01:32 PM
Sort 9mm by headstamp? Are you shooting at 100m out of a 9mm rifle? Yes, I read your reasoning, I just suspect you're in the vast minority when it comes to that particular behavior. It's my understanding that the book maxes have been watered down considerably by lawyers in recent years. I would say your advice to stay below max minus 10% is a bit paranoid, but I'll admit that I haven't been doing this as long as most here.

Am I mistaken in my understanding that load data published in the 70s had a lot less wiggle room at the high end?

Also, if you end up with 90% of your brass being 3 different headstamps, do you work up 3 different loads? And what do you do with the rest of the brass? I only sort by headstamp when I'm working up a load in the first place, and only to reduce variables. After that, I'll load anything that doesn't consistently cause me problems during loading (I can think of a couple of headstamps off the top of my head).

DougGuy
10-26-2015, 01:42 PM
This doesn't sound like an issue where the boolit is stopping on the throat. It sounds like the chamber itself is on the tight side. If the OP can seat a boolit upside down flush with the case mouth and it won't chamber, here is where to start looking, because that eliminates the OAL question and also the throat/freebore diameter interference question.

It may be that this barrel likes a certain crimp or certain size boolit and that's all it's gonna be happy with.

BEFORE I would consign the problem being the chamber, I would consult a GOOD precision micrometer that reads in .0001" increments, and look to see if the boolit itself is oval shaped. You would be surprised the number of dummy boolits that people send along with their barrels or cylinders, that are egged and the customer who sent them was unaware of this runout. Some of the issues have been from not running the boolits through a sizer at all, to a worn out sizer, not enough crimp, not pushing the boolit far enough into the sizer, I would make SURE you got a round boolit to start with and for this you need a GOOD mic, calipers won't be precise enough to give correct readings in tenths of a thousandth of an inch. Just a couple tenths runout is enough to cause the entire problem the OP is dealing with.

Dusty Bannister
10-26-2015, 01:54 PM
I do sort by H/S on the 9 and 40 but not the 45 ACP. I do not work up individual loads, but I do like to keep the batch the same just for consistency. If a problem shows up, it should be with all of them not just a random issue where if the case is lost in the grass you have no idea what it looked like. It just makes problem solving so much easier if you know what you have to start with. The over all case length might be different, and I am not going to measure or trim pistol cases. While not a match shooter, I do like to have a reasonably accurate and consistent ammo in hand. This is what I do with my rifle cases too, even the plinkers. YMMV

Kent Fowler
10-26-2015, 05:31 PM
This doesn't sound like an issue where the boolit is stopping on the throat. It sounds like the chamber itself is on the tight side. If the OP can seat a boolit upside down flush with the case mouth and it won't chamber, here is where to start looking, because that eliminates the OAL question and also the throat/freebore diameter interference question.

It may be that this barrel likes a certain crimp or certain size boolit and that's all it's gonna be happy with.

BEFORE I would consign the problem being the chamber, I would consult a GOOD precision micrometer that reads in .0001" increments, and look to see if the boolit itself is oval shaped. You would be surprised the number of dummy boolits that people send along with their barrels or cylinders, that are egged and the customer who sent them was unaware of this runout. Some of the issues have been from not running the boolits through a sizer at all, to a worn out sizer, not enough crimp, not pushing the boolit far enough into the sizer, I would make SURE you got a round boolit to start with and for this you need a GOOD mic, calipers won't be precise enough to give correct readings in tenths of a thousandth of an inch. Just a couple tenths runout is enough to cause the entire problem the OP is dealing with.

Doug, I'm with you on this. I did a quick check on 10 of the bullets a couple days ago. None of them were over 3/10,000 out of round and diameters were a low of .3565 to .3568 with most in the .3566-.3568 range. They were measured with my Starrett 436 micrometer. I tried to get a chamber measurement close to the throat the other day with a Starrett 829 small hole gage, but my wife confiscated the bottle of Jack Daniels I had hid out in the shop, so I was unable to get the shakes under control enough to get a good reading. I've been reloading for 45 years and I've never run across a head scratcher like this one as I've tried every trick I know of to get the rounds to chamber. I paid $230 for the gun and am not real sure I want to have it re- chambered. Think I'll put 2 or three hundred factory through it and if shoots good enough, I might consider getting it worked on.

Motor
10-26-2015, 05:43 PM
I don't really care for the Lee FCD with cast boolits because when it post sizes the case it also post sizes the boolits within the case. The brass tends to spring back a little while the lead dosen't which can greatly reduce your neck tension. Neck tension in a semiautomatic pistol round like the 9x19 is really the only effective thing holding the boolits in place.

After stating all of that I still agree trying it to see if it cures your fit problem is not a bad idea. :)

Motor

Coconino
10-27-2015, 09:33 AM
My problem is finding a good 125-147 gr cast bullet that works without tumbling. I have found commercial bullets like Precision and Acme that work fine and are accurate but these have no lube groove. But Bear Creek 147 gr with than large (and unneeded groove) tumble. When I used the Lee 125 RN mold sized .356 I would get tumbling when shooting them from a Browning HP, SIG, or M&P. I may get a NOE 135 gr mold when I get funds up to try. I taper crimp and use mixed brass.

mdi
10-27-2015, 12:44 PM
FWIW, and remember what you paid for it :bigsmyl2:

Just a thought; many times one will bring up a subject and many times there will be a lot of negative responses (just mention you like to trim revolver ammo and stand back for the "you're wasting your time" replies). But the important thing is it's your ammo, your gun, your time, and as long as a particular practice won't blow your gun up, do it! I may do some things most don't but I'm reloading for myself and not to please forum experts. There is no Reloading Police to kick down your door and confiscate your handloads because you did it wrong (or different). If you don't want to cast yer own, fine. If you can only use .355" bullets, OK, you researched and tried.

Remember, this is an open forum where anybody is welcome to drop any suggestions about any part of reloading, whether they know tons about the particular subject or just read something yesterday. All I can really say is read them all, use yer brain and common sense and you'll be able to pick the good info outta all the "stuff'...

lightload
10-27-2015, 01:37 PM
I've read the thread an learned a lot. One idea is to talk to the nice man at Penn Bullets and ask for a sample pack of unsized(& unlubed)9mm boolits. This sample pack would have a range of boolits from light weight to heavy and may have a few from the .38 section as well. In essence, the op would then have a big bag of gauges for research.

dudel
10-27-2015, 02:29 PM
Sort 9mm by headstamp? Are you shooting at 100m out of a 9mm rifle? Yes, I read your reasoning, I just suspect you're in the vast minority when it comes to that particular behavior.

I must be in the minority as well. I sort by headstamp to get a consistent primer feel and seating. When I ran mixed brass, you couldn't tell if the pocket was loose or tight of if the primer had gotten cocked. For example my S&B cases have much, much tighter primer pockets than most any other brass I use (Fed, Win, RP, Starline and LC). Much easier for me if I sort brass. As a side benefit, I get more consistent bullet tension. It also culls out those cases I don't want (steel, Americ, etc). Can't hurt, and I find it relaxing. If it's more accurate, that's not a bad thing.

MtGun44
10-28-2015, 11:05 AM
Wow, paying to modify the throat rather than use a good boolit design seems
strange to me.

Try Lee 120 TC normal lube, sized to .357 or .358 for any 9mm. Works for many
different guns, feeds perfectly, only a tiny bit of full diam outside the case means
not a problem like most of the RN 9mm designs. Folks see RN FMJs as standard,
so assume that they need the same or similar shape in cast.

Save yourself some trouble and try the Lee 356 120 TC sized .357 or .358.

SSGOldfart
10-28-2015, 04:58 PM
This doesn't sound like an issue where the boolit is stopping on the throat. It sounds like the chamber itself is on the tight side. If the OP can seat a boolit upside down flush with the case mouth and it won't chamber, here is where to start looking, because that eliminates the OAL question and also the throat/freebore diameter interference question.

It may be that this barrel likes a certain crimp or certain size boolit and that's all it's gonna be happy with.

BEFORE I would consign the problem being the chamber, I would consult a GOOD precision micrometer that reads in .0001" increments, and look to see if the boolit itself is oval shaped. You would be surprised the number of dummy boolits that people send along with their barrels or cylinders, that are egged and the customer who sent them was unaware of this runout. Some of the issues have been from not running the boolits through a sizer at all, to a worn out sizer, not enough crimp, not pushing the boolit far enough into the sizer, I would make SURE you got a round boolit to start with and for this you need a GOOD mic, calipers won't be precise enough to give correct readings in tenths of a thousandth of an inch. Just a couple tenths runout is enough to cause the entire problem the OP is dealing with.

Very well put DougGuy

Lloyd Smale
10-29-2015, 07:34 AM
I shoot 358s in all my 9s. Ive owned a pastle of them through the years and the only one I had that wouldn't run 358s was a fancy smith 956. It needed 356s to run right. It wasn't the tack driver I was led up to believe anyway. I traded it off and got a sti Trojan in 9. it ran everything and was hands down the most accurate semi auto pistol I ever owned.

rsrocket1
10-29-2015, 01:44 PM
Farmerjim, there is no need to modify the M&P barrels.
I shoot the Lee 356-120-TC and TL356-124-2R just fine in my M&P9 and Shield 9 with stock barrels. The M&P is actually an M&P40 with the stock 9mm S&W barrel. My barrels slugged at 0.3545" and yes the throats and chambers are tight. The throats slugged at just under 0.3565" and a 0.356" bullet feeds into it right up to the rifling. My bullets drop at 0.358" and after ASBB PC, they are 0.360". I size them in the Lee 0.356" push through sizer and they measure out to 0.356". I use the Lee 38 S&W expander plug in the 9mm PTX die which expands the case the full length of the bullet:
152128
The bullets are very snugly seated with plenty of neck tension from the case and I can expose as little or as much bullet above the case rim and have no trouble avoiding the rifling. I can seat the 25-120-TC out to the bottom of the lube groove and the TL356-124-2R out to beyond the second TL groove. I use the Lee taper crimp die (not the Factory crimp die) to close the flare and put a very mild taper crimp (much less dramatic than the photo below appears). Here's a picture of various seat depths anywhere from flush to 2nd TL groove. All rounds passed the plunk test in both the M&P and Shield barrels. You can see where the case is still slightly expanded, but the cartridge still fits easily within the chamber of the field stripped barrels.
http://i270.photobucket.com/albums/jj96/rsrocket1/Shoot/85ab52e4-bfc5-49e2-b2bb-2b8d3a72bbb1_zpsaqx5asup.jpg