Questions about cast bullets in 308 Winchester

[carstensxd45]

Been lurking for years, finally was able to get registered, stupid computer, anyway, I have been casting my 45acp and 9mm rounds for years. Recently, started casting for my 45LC, so I am not unfamiliar with the casting process. So here we go, I wanted to cast some rounds for my 308 Win bolt action rifle, Ruger American, just for practice. I researched extensively with several other casters and the internet, Youtube, etc... Was able to put the rounds together and everything seemed great. Until I took them to the range for testing. I was shooting at a 9" target at 75 yards. Out of 16 shots, I only hit the paper 5 times. I was stupified!!! I thought I have messed up my scope, so I tried 2 factory rounds. Put both of them within 1" of the bullseye. So It was not the scope. Am very frustrated!! The rounds themselves are 160 grains. sized to .309, tumble lube design, using 41.5 grains of IMR4064. They chronoed at 2534 fps. I can't think of what might be the problem. The factory rounds that I used were also reloaded by myself using factory bullets. I did notice that when I tumble lubed them the 2nd time, some of the gas checks came off. I am wondering if perhaps the gas check is coming off in flight, causing the inaccurate hits. Would it be better to slow down the rounds and go without the gas check?
Any help would be greatly appreciated!!!!!

[petroid]

More info, please. Did you slug the barrel and throat? What mold? What alloy? Hardness? An accurate high velocity cast load doesn't come without some experimenting but the details have to be covered. I'd start by slugging the bore and throat, measuring with a micrometer. If you can, cast a bullet that fills the throat. Seat out to the lands. Start with a little lower charge or try the Ed Harris 16gr. of 2400.

[wmitty]

You are starting out by jumping into the deep end of the pool! Start at 25.0 grains of 4064 and load 5 rounds in one grain increments to see where accuracy starts going south with the alloy you are using. I believe you may find it somewhat difficult to obtain accuracy with velocities anywhere close to 2500 fps without very close attention to details; some of which are mentioned by petroid. Your experience reminds me of me when I first started using cast boolits. There is a learning curve involved.

[runfiverun]

I'm more surprised you hit the paper at all.
try the above load about 28 to 30 grains should have you on paper and the holes should be close together.
about 6-8" low, but all together.

[carstensxd45]

You are starting out by jumping into the deep end of the pool! Start at 25.0 grains of 4064 and load 5 rounds in one grain increments to see where accuracy starts going south with the alloy you are using. I believe you may find it somewhat difficult to obtain accuracy with velocities anywhere close to 2500 fps without very close attention to details; some of which are mentioned by petroid. Your experience reminds me of me when I first started using cast boolits. There is a learning curve involved.

Hey wmitty, I see you are in Sulphur Springs, I am down here in Longview

[joesig]

It would help if you tell us the allow or BHN too. Do you have any other powders beside 4064?

[SSGOldfart]

Good advice I think you just over ran your sweet spot,I'd check the bore size and slow it down abit and try again you'll get there and welcome aboard,I'm a bit to far south of you to meet ftf,lot's of good help right here ..:popcorn:

[SSGOldfart]

Btw what mold are you using?

[MBTcustom]

You have to get your speed down a bit. Cast bullets can't be shot as easily as jacketed at jacketed speeds. You have to start low and work your way up. Please remember that from a hunting standpoint, cast bullets are extremely effective at 2/3rds the velocity of jacketed, so there really is no reason to shoot faster unless you're just doing it for the fun of it (which I have once or twice). Take a look at the link in my signature line.
This might also be a helpful read:
http://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?208186-RPM-Threshold-barrel-twist-velocity-chart
and this
http://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?158805-Just-a-few-tips-for-new-rifle-casters
and this (Pay attention to lube)
http://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?148085-some-tips-that-may-help

Matter of fact, you should take time and read all of the stickies in the main cast boolits forum that pertain to shooting cast in rifles. I have one there on how to do a pound cast and there are others that will help you understand what is happening as that bullet leaves the neck of your brass and gets shred...... that is, engraved by the rifling.
Not only that, but many of the Stickies are not locked, so after reading, if there's something you don't understand or needs to be clarified, you can just post in that thread, and help will be forthcoming.
Just stay with it, and keep shooting and ask pointed questions about what your rifle is telling you. After all, it's opinion is the only one you should really be concerned with, and this place is very good at helping you get past the language barrier.
Good luck and enjoy!

[cainttype]

In addition to the good advise you've already received, having an absolutely clean bore is also something to keep in mind when switching from jacketed to cast.

[dodgyrog]

Some points to consider
1/ The barrel must be COMPLETELY clean of copper fouling (use C2R from the Shooting Shed).
2/ The boolits must be hard and durable BUT not too hard Suggest range lead/ Linotype/ Pure lead 1/3rd each.
3/ Size in a RCBS lubesizer to .310 and fit a decent gas check
4/ Use a GOOD lube - I use Carnauba lube.
5/ Use the correct powder - do not reduce slow burning powder loads - I use Accurate 5744 (D060 from Lovex) - try 25 gr
5/ When casting I drop the boolits into a bucket of cold water straight from the mould - beware of keeping any water getting near your lead pot
pm me if you want to have a chat

[popper]

You need 4-5% Sb and some As to water drop those for that speed. Size after GC, probably 310. You can run them slower with 2400 or Unique, decent to maybe 75 yds. What mould and alloy?

[carstensxd45]

Wow, definately got more help than some other forums I have tried. Let me add some info:
1. Mold is a Lee double cavity ctl312 - 160-2r
2. Diameter is .312 from the mold
3. Weight is 160 grains
4. I do expand the case mouth to accept the bullet
5. I also do drop the rounds directly from the mold into a bucket of water
6. Powders I have available - Bullseye, Unique, Blue Dot, Green Dot, Power Pistol, IMR4064, IMR4198, have a good supplier so a different powder is available, if needed
7. Alloy is 75% Wheel weight lead, 25% pure lead

Hope this additional info will help. Appreciate all the help and suggestions

[runfiverun]

they will all work, the easiest to get right now would be the 4064.
start at 28 grs and work towards 30.
if you see vertical stringing a 1 gr tuft of Dacron seated between the powder and the bullets base will cure that and add a little more speed.
make damn sure the Dacron is lofted up and pushing down on the powder, leave it up even with the case mouth and let the boolit squish it down in the neck.

[MBTcustom]

I agree with R5R, but would also add that if you just want to have some fun with cast in your rifle, go ahead and load up some with 13.5 grains of Unique. It's not a very powerful load, but funner than anything, and it will actually kill deer deader than a hammer. Unique in a rifle with cast = cheap trigger time and lots of it.
Also, you gotta check out 45-45-10 lube in tandem with the Unique loads. Helps get your bullets in play faster and it beats the heck out of Lee mule snot lube.

[JonB_in_Glencoe]

Been lurking for years, finally was able to get registered, stupid computer, anyway, I have been casting my 45acp and 9mm rounds for years. Recently, started casting for my 45LC, so I am not unfamiliar with the casting process. So here we go, I wanted to cast some rounds for my 308 Win bolt action rifle, Ruger American, just for practice. I researched extensively with several other casters and the internet, Youtube, etc... Was able to put the rounds together and everything seemed great. Until I took them to the range for testing. I was shooting at a 9" target at 75 yards. Out of 16 shots, I only hit the paper 5 times. I was stupified!!! I thought I have messed up my scope, so I tried 2 factory rounds. Put both of them within 1" of the bullseye. So It was not the scope. Am very frustrated!! The rounds themselves are 160 grains. sized to .309, tumble lube design, using 41.5 grains of IMR4064. They chronoed at 2534 fps. I can't think of what might be the problem. The factory rounds that I used were also reloaded by myself using factory bullets. I did notice that when I tumble lubed them the 2nd time, some of the gas checks came off. I am wondering if perhaps the gas check is coming off in flight, causing the inaccurate hits. Would it be better to slow down the rounds and go without the gas check?
Any help would be greatly appreciated!!!!!


Wow, definately got more help than some other forums I have tried. Let me add some info:
1. Mold is a Lee double cavity ctl312 - 160-2r
2. Diameter is .312 from the mold
3. Weight is 160 grains
4. I do expand the case mouth to accept the bullet
5. I also do drop the rounds directly from the mold into a bucket of water
6. Powders I have available - Bullseye, Unique, Blue Dot, Green Dot, Power Pistol, IMR4064, IMR4198, have a good supplier so a different powder is available, if needed
7. Alloy is 75% Wheel weight lead, 25% pure lead

Hope this additional info will help. Appreciate all the help and suggestions

DO you have the lyman castbullet handbook 4th Ed. ?
Look at the load data, you will not see loads as hot as you loaded.
I bet you'll find a load for IMR4198 for 308win and I bet it'll be in the 1800 to 2100 FPS range.
Good Luck.

[Hannibal]

You have received a great deal of good advice already. Might I further emphasise the importance of lead hardness. (BHN).

It is important that you test the hardness of your bullets. Wheel weights may or may not contain the expected ingredients. Your formula is not one to produce Lyman #2. In fact, if your 'pure' lead source is stick-on wheel weights, there is no telling what your water-dropped bullets are going to be.

That said, I would suggest that if you are not certain what you are working with, you'll save yourself a lot of time, trouble and expense by testing it and finding out what you have.

Also, unless you have considerable casting experience already, might I suggest you look at some of the 'XCB' threads under the 'Special Projects' forum. Going high speed with a cast bullet requires methods that seem extreme under other conditions. Those threads offer excellent advice on what has worked well for others in the speed range you're looking at.

Hope this helps.

[10x]

I have been shooting Lee 150 grain cast gascheck with powder coat in several 308 rifles. I have sized the bullets to 0.311 and checked to see if they chamber easily.
A bullet a 0.311" will get sized by the bore. The savage bolt action in 308 will give 1" groups with 23 grains of WC735 (WC735 is 5% faster than H335).
A savage 99 in 308 will give 3" groups. and my Remington 700 heavy barrel police special requires a 0.309 bullet in order for the case to chamber easily - and it gives 1.5" groups.

I have found that the speed limit on wheel weight bullets with a alox lube in 30 caliber is about 1800 fps depending on the power .
I have gone to powder coating and that seems to have a) tightened my groups and b) allowed me to shoot at higher velocities without a fall off in accuracy.
I shoot 0.225" 55 grain cast GC bullets out of my 223 at about 2200 fps with groups that average about 1.5 inches.

[Kraschenbirn]

I notice you have 4198 on hand and that's pretty much my 'go to' powder for .308 WCF with lighter boolits. I shoot the Lee 312-155-2R, sized to .311, over 25.5 gr. 4198 for about 2050 fps from my M700 (24" barrel). The 312-155 is the lube-groove version of the boolit you're using. Didn't take any pics but, this morning, I had that rifle at the range and finished off a box of ammo tagging a suspended 1L Gatorade bottle 8 out of 9 at 200M. Off the bench, 5-shot groups on paper run 2 1/2"-3" at the same distance.


Bill

[oldblinddog]

I would, with your boolit, size to .311 and start with:

10 gr. Unique
21 gr. IMR 4198
28 gr. IMR 4064
25 gr. Varget

With any of those loads you may stop right there. They have all been good in my Rem 700's in .308 Win. I know you didn't list Varget, but if you could acquire some, that load is outstanding! I'd try the Bullseye too, about 4.0 gr. and work up or down 0.1 gr. at a time.

[quilbilly]

Wow, definately got more help than some other forums I have tried. Let me add some info:
1. Mold is a Lee double cavity ctl312 - 160-2r
2. Diameter is .312 from the mold
3. Weight is 160 grains
4. I do expand the case mouth to accept the bullet
5. I also do drop the rounds directly from the mold into a bucket of water
6. Powders I have available - Bullseye, Unique, Blue Dot, Green Dot, Power Pistol, IMR4064, IMR4198, have a good supplier so a different powder is available, if needed
7. Alloy is 75% Wheel weight lead, 25% pure lead

Hope this additional info will help. Appreciate all the help and suggestions
That particular boolit shoots exceedingly well in both my 308 bolt action and 30/30 lever action. The muzzle velocity in the 308 is about 1900 fps. using 19 gr of 2400 (if memory serves). Make sure your gas check stays inside the neck when you seat the boolit, of course. I have also had good accuracy using 4198 and RE-7 for the same velocity. As Goodsteel said, you don't need jacketed velocities with cast boolits for excellent hunting results.

[A pause for the COZ]

Unless I am trying to do something special. Like trying to get high velocity loads.
I follow the keep it simple loading plan.
I load ALL my 30 cal rifles with range scrap lead boolits sized to .310, gas checked and lubed with what ever is in the sizer.
I load them ahead of 2400, RL-7, 4227, or 5744
I load them to get 1700 fps and be happy

[carstensxd45]

Got my Lyman s cast bullet Manuel, check out the group, light years better
153028

[gwpercle]

Lyman Cast Bullet Manual.....that's the ticket !
Now that target look a whole lot better.
Gary

[carstensxd45]

Well, finally get my 308 load straightened out. Used IMR 4198, loaded up 5 rounds of each 1 grain increment, starting at 22 grains and going up 1 full grain each 5 round group, settled on 24.5 grains as my load, had the best group with good speed, 2005 fps, check out my targets, since my hunting area is only allowing about a 75 yard shot, I sighted the scope at 70 yards, these targets are from 60 yards out

153588
24 grains
153590
25 grains

My cost for each 308 round is about 17cents, I can practice a lot that cheap,
Appreciate those who responded and tried to help

[carstensxd45]

They are so pretty
153624

[carstensxd45]

Just a quick note, used my new rounds to do some serious gong ringing at the 300 yard range yesterday, great fun at .17 cents per round

[MtGun44]

Don't sweat copper in the bore. Don't sweat alloy, wwts is fine. Fit grooves by using groove diam +.002 or .003. Use 10 gr or Unique, or 16 gr of 2400, any bullet wt you like. This WILL work.

[Don Fischer]

In addition to the good advise you've already received, having an absolutely clean bore is also something to keep in mind when switching from jacketed to cast.

I was wondering about that. I started using cast in a 30-06 several years ago and advice I read somewhere said the barrel had to be clean of copper fouling. Boy is it trying to get rid of all that stuff in an old rifle. I used red dot and 4064 in those 30-06 loads. I also stuffed a quarter sheet of toilet paper down on the powder in each case. The Red Dot loads were about 1600 fps if I remember. I won't use it any more other than getting my grandson going with a rifle. I switched to 4064 trying to get to 2000 fps and it's right there! At 50 yds it shoots group's consistently under 1" but moving to 100 yds the group's go 2" +/-. Early effort with rifle casting and I didn't push going past 2000 fps. That would make a nice game load I think, oh, 177 gr Lee mold. I really worry about leading as years ago I bought some 41 mag lead loads that leaded the barrel badly. Do that one time and actually get the lead out and it will make you cautious!

A big thing for me with rifle cast loads was the loss of accuracy from jacketed bullet's. But out to 100 +/- yds, a 2" group will work fine. have a 308 I'm going to shoot them out of, Rem 788 with an 18" barrel. going back to jacketed with the 30-06, 03 Springfield by Paul Jaeger in 1945.

I did use Lee's book for some cast loads, mostly 4064 and I just don't have the gut's to go where he say's, again, I'm not into getting lead out of a barrel just for a few more fps!

[haynk]

Referring to gas check boolits. It is my understanding that boolits come out of the barrel rotating at high speed and that the gas check is thrown off quickly in random directions. Comments?

haynk

[Hickok]

Referring to gas check boolits. It is my understanding that boolits come out of the barrel rotating at high speed and that the gas check is thrown off quickly in random directions. Comments?

haynkNope.

[edctexas]

Gas Checks are crimped on the boolit base and are supposed to stay there. If they come off, the round will be a flyer and not hit where you desire. The gas check rotates as fast as the boolit. The twist rate and boolit velocity determine the rotational velocity.

Ed C

[nitro-express]

That particular boolit shoots exceedingly well in both my 308 bolt action and 30/30 lever action. The muzzle velocity in the 308 is about 1900 fps. using 19 gr of 2400 (if memory serves). Make sure your gas check stays inside the neck when you seat the boolit, of course. I have also had good accuracy using 4198 and RE-7 for the same velocity. As Goodsteel said, you don't need jacketed velocities with cast boolits for excellent hunting results.

"Make sure your gas check stays inside the neck when you seat the boolit, of course."

What happens if the gas check is below the neck? I'm shooting a C309-150-F in my 308, and in order to have all the lube covered by the neck, the gas check is or close to being below the neck.

I'm getting some funnies happening that I can't explain.

[runfiverun]

the check going into the neck can be pulled to the side giving you an angled base at the muzzle.
or 'worse' [if that's possible] it flies off at random.
I try to seat my boolits out and let them engage the rifling, a nice even [.001-.0015]engraving on the nose is preferred.

[popper]

If you assume the GC is to eliminate gas cutting and lead is exposed to gas, it gets cut. At least keep the sides of the GC in the neck. High pressure loads can peen the GC into the shoulder, just like Pb.

[robg]

Keep gas check in neck of case ,get better accuracy if I use heavy crimp with fcd .have never used fillers 2400 is my powder of choice .

[dragon813gt]

I load for the 300 Savage and the check is almost always below the neck. It is what it is and there have been no detrimental effects. If you can keep it in the neck, great. But I don't worry about it.

[centershot]

Unless I am trying to do something special. Like trying to get high velocity loads.
I follow the keep it simple loading plan.
I load ALL my 30 cal rifles with range scrap lead boolits sized to .310, gas checked and lubed with what ever is in the sizer.
I load them ahead of 2400, RL-7, 4227, or 5744
I load them to get 1700 fps and be happy

There's a lot to be said for this strategy! In a .30 caliber rifle you are going to find a velocity limit around 2000 fps due to the rpm/twist relationship (read http://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?208186-RPM-Threshold-barrel-twist-velocity-chart). Powder coating may exceed that threshold. Personally, I don't want to mess with PC, so I shoot my 30 cal's @18-1900 and enjoy it! The deer don't seem to mind that my bullets aren't Mach 2+!

[duck hollow pete]

My Lyman 311291 puts the check below the neck which I never cared for but never had a problem with it. The 311299 and RCBS 160 Sil doesn't, you might what to look at those two moulds.