Desirable features for a possibles bag

[Whitesmoke]

G day fellas.

I am bit by bit getting together the equipment to shoot my .54 cal percussion.

I am hoping to pick your brains on what you may consider good features to incorporate in a possibles bag I wish to make. Up til now I have shot mainly from the club benches,but shooting ,"off the body", as they term it here is a whole new ball game, I quickly learned at a rondy shoot.
I now prefer the rondy shoots much better but often miss matches as I get yappin with interesting people I can learn from.

Its easy to buy a bag you may say, but I want to make one that includes the those features that will make (muzzleloading ) life easy, as they say here.

The intention is to fit my patch knife into a sleeve sewn to the shoulder strap.To this,also will be my straight capper and cylindrical powder brass powder measure.

In the bag I will have cut patches from a roll treated with the Dutch Schultz method, a bag of .54 balls and some cleaner patches.

Could you please post what arrangement works well for you and why.I look forward to reading your comments and suggestions.

I feel if I can get the loading chain smooth and well organised, it will add to my efficiency and this improve my accuracy.

thanks in advance
Whitesmoke

[swamp]

You might want to use a loading block to have a few round balls ready to load. I have one that holds 6 patched balls ready.

I would have pockets in the bag to keep everything separate and easy to hand. Maybe make one up out of scrap cloth and see how it works, make any changes and then make up your final version of your selected material. Just make it so it is comfortable and easy to use. You don't everything mixed together in the bottom of the bag.

swamp

[Whitesmoke]

Thanks Swamp
Good points there, nothing worse than scratching round in the bottom of the bag through mixed items.

I am leaning towards a place for everything and everything in its place arrangement.

If I can't put my hand on what I am seeking, I tend to get a bit upset and flustered, not good for my concentration in the middle of a match.

When I tried out a .54 at the range, the owner had a double row patch ball loading block. It is far too awkward and slow to align with the bore. I prefer a single row as it would was less fiddly and tuck away neatly.

[duckey]

I'm also looking to make a bag. Post up some pics of yours with a description and details.

[rfd]

for me, bags are always evolving, with diff'rent sizes and configurations. none have ever been totally complete for me, as that would take a backpack's worth of gear to lug around.

and so i've made many possibles/shooting bags, the latest is this one for my muskrat & holland .58 fowler ...

http://i.imgur.com/gTNhUnv.jpg

outside - patch knife in a strap sheath, ball starter (if needed), vent picks (bronze guitar string in diff'rent sizes), pan brush (cut down 1/2" bristle paint brush), horn powder pre-measure, linen dry lubed (dutch) patch strips, allen key to open close the hammer jaw, and a more functional "modern" powder horn that i made with a thumb activated brass pour spout.

http://i.imgur.com/W2Gy30I.jpg

inside - a sewn-in open top ball pouch, small plastic spray bottle of moose milk fouling cleaner, arsenal cleaning patches, pipe cleaners, flint wallet, extra linen dry lube patch strips rolled up. i'll add an internal bag of wads, shot and shot measure if a shotgun load might be needed.

http://i.imgur.com/FfMXPNY.jpg

[rancher1913]

very cool rfd, mine are nowhere near that organized. love the main tools on lanyards outside, but do they ever get caught on anything.

[rfd]

the stuff dangling off the bag's strap - pan brush, vent picks, powder measure, patch strips - are on leather shoestring lanyards that go through punched holes in the strap, and they have a retaining knot on the strap end (you can see one of the knots in the lower right corner of the pic below), that are pulled up and no longer dangling when walking or trotting. works purty good, too.

http://i.imgur.com/ftzmDFS.jpg

[JMtoolman]

On the hunting bags I have made, I always put a flat piece of leather on the outside of the bag under the flap. About three inches long and two deep sewn to the bag, open at the top. This is where the reloading patches are carried, a quick flip of the flap and a finger in the top retrieves a patch. You don't even have to look to find it! It will hold about a dozen patches. On the strap I always punched a hole for the measure on a thong, a long thong that holds the starter on the other end. The thong is pulled out with the powder measure, used to load and the starter is pulled out of the bag, ( returning the measure up tight to the strap). Then the starter is returned to the pouch. A few bullets in a buckskin pouch with a spout, and a few cleaning patches complete the hunting rig.

[waksupi]

I find it is handier to have pre-cut patches in a small tin box in the bag. No knife on the pouch. I consider a ball bag a necessity. Maybe a separate pouch for ball puller and cleaning jag. Attach measure, ball bag, and capper to the bag with thongs. Finding the size that suits you is one of the harder things. Less is better. Keep the gimmick stuff at home. If you have a short starter, throw it away,and find the right patch and ball combination. The old timers didn't use them, you shouldn't either, unless you are shooting benchrest, and I question the need for them at that point. .

[rfd]

i agree on no need for a ball starter. no such 18th century device has been recorded or found and the speculation is that prb's went down the tube quite easily. and with a less compressed prb, using a screw to pull a ball is far easier than a tight prb.

yes, it's crucial to find the "right" combination of patch and ball, and far more important with smoothbores. when found, but lots of that material!

i prefer a patch strip to precut patches as a cut patch is always perfectly centered around the ball and tube.

[Tatume]

I carry very little with me when I hunt. However, I do carry some cleaning patches. Some are wet, in a sandwich bag, some are dry, and one has grease on it. It is humid here in Virginia, and I like to clean my gun while I'm waiting on the deer to "stiffen." By the time the gun is good and clean, it's time to take up the blood trail.

[Lonegun1894]

I use two different bags, depending on if I am using a cap gun or a flint gun, and I'm slowly trying to go to all flint.

My cap gun bag is canvas that I sewed myself, and is ugly, but functional. It has 2 pockets, separated by a simple divider. The front has nothing but RBs, the rear has a tin of caps, an extra cleaning jag, a ball puller, and a turn screw. My knife is on my belt, and my patch cloth is in a strip that hangs from my bag for hunting, or a small plastic bag if for range use since I'll need more of it at the range than hunting. My powder measure is antler and hangs off the strap. My powder and or shot horn hangs next to my bag.

My flint gun bag is leather, but similar set up, except instead of a cap tin, I have a small flint wallet I made. I prime from the same horn I load from, so no need for more than one type of powder. As Waksupi said, you also don't need a hammer or short starter like some guys use. I've used them, so not talking trash, but learned that it was extra junk that I just didn't need.

[GoodOlBoy]

Use to watch an old timer load his without a short starter but putting the ball on the patch, cutting the patch and pushing in the ball with the handle of his patch knife. then out came the ramrod. he was quick, and he was accurate. We use to see him at events doing demos. He was always so busy I never got to talk to him. I regret I didn't make the time these days.

GoodOlBoy

[gnoahhh]

First off, a possibles bag is a separate bag in which one carries all the stuff one would "possibly" need for a day afield- sandwiches, flask, butcher knife, etc. A shooting bag is that which contains the stuff with which to manage one's rifle.

In my shooting bag I carry only the bare essentials- balls, pre-cut patches, capper/spare flints, measure. The bag is a double pouch with large pockets sewn into each pouch to hold those items separately. I like to reach in and go right to what I'm looking for without rooting around. In the back pouch I also have small pockets not unlike cartridge belt loops that hold "emergency" tools such as a nipple wrench, ball puller, worm etc., that are thusly kept safely out of the way of things. The only things attached to the straps/outside of the bag are the horn and patch knife (which has never cut a patch but has gutted deer when the big knife was forgotten). I don't like a lot of small things dangling on the outside of the bag- too much added chance for loss, and to me adds to complacency. (If an item has a specific spot inside the bag, and one develops the regimen of putting it back there after use, one won't ever lose it. I don't even have a string attached to my horn stopper- it's just as easy to put it back in place after pouring powder as it is to let it dangle and likely forget for a while to put it the heck back into the horn.)

To arrange one's stuff around the outside of the shooting bag attached with strings, for ease of quick reloading, is to foster a reliance on a quick second shot which flies in the face of making that first shot count for all it's worth.

I spent weeks working out the design and size of my bag using pattern paper and cloth mockups. After I had it designed then I laboriously sewed it out of brain tanned elk hide. That was almost 25 years ago and it is still going strong and I never once second guessed my design decisions. Take the time to work everything out to your satisfaction before starting to cut leather.

[Whiterabbit]

I think you are going ot find your needs are unique and personal. like everyone here. For me (if it helps you)

I patch cut and I like it: I have a sheath on the strap.
I use a brass dispenser for pan powder: I want (but not yet have) a sheath for the 4F powder on the strap.
I tight-ball it: I want to add a sheath for the ball starter on the outside.
I DON'T use preloaded ball holders for my flinter. I do on the caplock. So, different needs that need different bags.

That leaves only patch strip and balls in the bag to reach. The rest can "roll around" the bottom as it is seldom used: screw driver for replacing flints, CO2 discharger (have to for tight balls), not much else. A washcloth sized rag sits on top of all that for wiping hands.

I have a very small side pouch just large enough for a pick and a few flints.

-----------

One big recommendation I have for you: your open-top ball bag (it's a must) might be made of a fairly stiff material. Reason being, if the top flops over or flops closed, it can take 2 hands to root around for the opening to grab a ball. My ballbag is cloth right now and drives me crazy.

Also consider the difference between a rendezvous bag and hunting bag. One needs 25-30 balls in it, one needs just a couple.

[Whiterabbit]

Another suggestion, my personal preference:

I'm getting tired of stuff "hanging" off the bag or straps. My other goal is to make everything fit on the bag, the belt, or sheaths on the strap.

[gnoahhh]

I use a brass dispenser for pan powder: I want (but not yet have) a sheath for the 4F powder on the strap.



Try priming your pan with the powder from your main horn. Most everybody I know does that now, and it eliminates one more thing to have to deal with- especially if you use FFFg in the horn.

[Whiterabbit]

Might try that, thanks. Fortunately, the dispenser is small. Just enough to get 25-30 shots out of.

http://www.oldsouthfirearms.com/images/products/detail/A1257.jpg

[Whitesmoke]

Thanks fellas
I am getting a lot of excellent ideas from you.This bag is primarily for a rendezvous environment.
I will not be able to hunt as I,m not permitted through our Aussie legislation applying to my firearms license.

The entire purpose is to get me loading "quick and slick " as one rendezvoer, termed it.

I was told a story about the "fox in the hen house shoot" for ladies at a rondy. The ladies start at a table where they are cutting up pumpkins. The starter yells out "Theres a fox in the henhouse" and they all race over to the racked rifles and possibles bags.

In a couple of minutes (timed) the winner has her fox target riddled with kill shots.The person telling me this says there was no short starter used just a standard ramrod. He described the loading as quick and smooth.
That all points to the shooter having the load sequence perfected down to series of economical movements.

Movies ( yeah ! I know ) seem to try for historical accuracy and I don't see short starters used in any of them there either.
However I am attracted to making a patch knife with a short locator button on it.Thanks for that suggestion
I am cutting out cardboard mock up bag shape to trial for height and fit.

I will assume that the powder horn will be worn close to the muzzle height when the rifle in in the loading postion.
To me thatplaces, wearing the bag and the horn above the waist line, as most muzzles are above this height. My rifle is a relatively short 36" barrel Pedersoli Tryon and I am relatively short at 5'7.

I have always been very cautious about ramrods breaking and have never used anything but a s/steel range rod,so the slick and smooth action now seems intuitive for using a wooden ramrod.
Once again your thoughts on these subjects shall be well regarded.

Thanks
Ozwelder

[KCSO]

If you are going to use it as a field bag make sure the bag doesn't hang too low. When running through the woods you need to be able to clamp your elbow down on the bag to keep it from flopping around. Make sure anything attached to the strap is fastened in so it cant pop out. f it is for a fowler thread your hard card wads on a string and put them on the strap so you can pull them off one at a time. I use just thin card and put the holes in them off center so two cards on the powder and one over the shot and the holes in the bottom two don't line up. The holes are so the card don't build up back pressure as you load and pop forward. For a flinter I don't use a cushion wad as the pressure doesn't build as fast with a touchhole.

[waksupi]

First off, a possibles bag is a separate bag in which one carries all the stuff one would "possibly" need for a day afield- sandwiches, flask, butcher knife, etc. A shooting bag is that which contains the stuff with which to manage one's rifle.

In my shooting bag I carry only the bare essentials- balls, pre-cut patches, capper/spare flints, measure. The bag is a double pouch with large pockets sewn into each pouch to hold those items separately. I like to reach in and go right to what I'm looking for without rooting around. In the back pouch I also have small pockets not unlike cartridge belt loops that hold "emergency" tools such as a nipple wrench, ball puller, worm etc., that are thusly kept safely out of the way of things. The only things attached to the straps/outside of the bag are the horn and patch knife (which has never cut a patch but has gutted deer when the big knife was forgotten). I don't like a lot of small things dangling on the outside of the bag- too much added chance for loss, and to me adds to complacency. (If an item has a specific spot inside the bag, and one develops the regimen of putting it back there after use, one won't ever lose it. I don't even have a string attached to my horn stopper- it's just as easy to put it back in place after pouring powder as it is to let it dangle and likely forget for a while to put it the heck back into the horn.)

To arrange one's stuff around the outside of the shooting bag attached with strings, for ease of quick reloading, is to foster a reliance on a quick second shot which flies in the face of making that first shot count for all it's worth.

I spent weeks working out the design and size of my bag using pattern paper and cloth mockups. After I had it designed then I laboriously sewed it out of brain tanned elk hide. That was almost 25 years ago and it is still going strong and I never once second guessed my design decisions. Take the time to work everything out to your satisfaction before starting to cut leather.

When I attach things, I make sure they can be put inside the bag when not needed. The reason I like things attached, I tend to loose things at times. I'm always finding measures and other things other shooters have dropped on the ranges.

[gnoahhh]

Yep, everybody has their own way of doing things. We who have had several decades to think about and implement solutions usually are more entrenched in our ways.

I'll second the advice re: bag height. I see a lot of relatively new shooters having their shooting bags down on their hips. I position mine so the bottom of the bag rides at the top of my hip, with the horn (attached to the straps) under my elbow. A buckle somewhere on the strap makes it easy to adjust height depending on how much clothing is being worn. (You would want a different length strap when wearing several layers + a wool coat versus when you're running through the woods buck nekkid... :) )

As for the short starter debate- when hunting, I use a patch/ball combination that doesn't call for a short starter. For example, with my .45 Vincent Rifle which I built with a Getz barrel 20 years ago I use a .440/.015 patch combo and get plenty good accuracy. For target shooting, the gun prefers a .445/.015 combo which absolutely requires the aid of a short starter to get things moving. When target shooting (I always load from the bag, regardless of what kind of shooting I'm doing) I attach a leather tube on the front strap next to the patch knife (why-oh-why do I insist on carrying that?) to hold the starter right there where I need it.

Another mistake a lot of newbies make is using a horn way bigger than needed, especially when hunting. A small slender horn that holds a quarter pound of powder max is plenty big enough. It would hold enough powder for an entire hunting season.

[Whitesmoke]

gnoahhh,
I am right with you on the subject of the powder horn. I am aiming for one about the same length as the possibles bag and that will only be that long to allow scrimming my name on it, and a few local Aussie image type things on it.

This forum is just a goldmine of information. It is so beneficial to listen to the tips of those who have shot from the body and are willing to pass on the fruits of their experiences.

What I do observe in club shooting is that the new guys come along and don't stay with us all that long as they are not successful immediately.The sport locally seems dominated by 40's age groups and upwards. Even with the benefits of maturity newcomers become frustrated,and that,s because they do not yet understand the nuances of the the particular guns.

Yes,it takes time to learn but without guidance and support of the more experienced,it is also easy to lose heart and drift away.The problem is that the only time we have contact with these guys we are concentrating on a score ourselves and our time to spend assisting the new shooter can be limited.

I am assembling a set of notes together ( yes its the teacher in me, coming out) for the newbies that come along for a look, can take them home and decide if muzzle loading is the shooting discipline is for them.

I'll start a new post about the contents of the booklet and you might let me know what you think?

[Whiterabbit]

your horn is not for hunting, it's for rendezvous. It needs to be big enough to hold 25-30 shots, or however many you shoot at a meet plus a few extra in case of tie breakers, spillage, etc. If your plan covers that, sweet.

[OnHoPr]

Back in the late '80s when I first started to play around with the smoke pole there weren't any black powder clubs that I was aware of in the area, but those were rookie years. I did manage to shoot a few deer hunting. The perc cap being a southpaw kinda forced me to inlines after a couple of pairs of glasses got pepper etched. I never needed to have the 30 or 40 balls needed for the club shoots, but I tried to get a little more convenient and quicker with going into the woods. I made a little possibles quick loader board for hunting.

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It hold three shots, round balls, PP, conicals, sabots, and has ball starter for all. It will hold caps, 209s, and musket caps. Charges up to 150 gr will fit. It has a quick nipple prick. It has a spot to help seat the projectile with the ramrod as well as a couple of little cubby holes for a patch and primer or caps. A nice little hunting possibles board for the pocket or gun case and whether a quick hunt after work or the long back in 2 miles day jaunt. Personalized as well, check out the S&S section.

[fouronesix]

The only time I can think of for having to speed load a ML is in a battle or during a shooting event at a competition or rendezvous. Otherwise whatever works to hold your accouterments.

Sometimes, when hunting, I just put necessary stuff in my jacket pockets. Other times I like to feel traditional so carry some proper gear along with wearing an article of traditional clothing.

various accouterments-

[gnoahhh]

Sometimes I think we spend too much time worrying about how quickly we can get off a second shot. We need to step away from the 20th-21st century mentality of repeating rifles shooting jacketed high speed bullets and realign our thinking toward the steely-eyed farmers/hunters of the 18th century who knew they had but one shot- and one shot only- to whack that deer needed to feed his family, and he better make it count.

[OnHoPr]

Back a few years ago I had to do a few major and minor fixing to the cabin. I went to a few amish saw mills to get slabs for the exterior walls. I looked and said "What", their mills were computerized. I went into the office of one of them and he had a computer and on the floor near him there was a Hoyt IIRC compound bow case. I assume their was a compound in it. There was a young amish woman that did drive up near the mill with a team of horses, wagon, and bare feet. It looked like she knew what she was doing with the team and wagon. About ten years ago I watched Wayne LaPierre just about gut shot a cape buff at 50 yds on one of those tv shows. There is a lot of space around the perfect shot, so there are times when the most quickest second shot is necessary for a humane harvest, especially if there is hard tracking ground near or property lines. There is the PBR and if I seen correctly an XCB program testing.

[waksupi]

Proper set up of a shooting bag isn't about speed, it's about efficiency.

[fouronesix]

Hmm. I think one bag will "efficiently" carry stuff about like the next.

[Whitesmoke]

My bag will never be used for hunting- purely for competition.My shooting year is divided into monthly target range competitions at 100 and 50 meters and rendezvous shoots 3 or 4 times per year.

My observations over the last 20 years or so lead me to think that the "scoring shooters" are those who are well organised and their particular style of shooting has pattern and a flow to it.

To me,the act of loading and subsequently shooting your muzzleloader requires concentration and organisation.

These shooters do well irrespective of paper target type shooting or the "you never know what they are going to ask you to shoot at next" rendezvous targets are.

I am really taken with OnHoPrs combination loading block which puts all of the load requirements on the same unit.It demonstrates the efficiency I refer to.Well done ,I say!

I am currently developing my own speed loader similar to the commercial ones. I used them before when I owned a .50 cal percussion, the speed loaders being PVC electrical conduit tubes. They were made as open tubes with caps on either end.

All I needed to do was to remove the powder cap first, tip the powder down the barrel, remove the other cap and push the ball and patch through with the starter.

Starting again with a. 54 cal has messed my system as there is no convenient tube sizes to duplicate my system in .54 cal fodder.I am yet to find a suitable diameter tube.I am experimenting at the moment with my discarded diabetic insulin pens.

You may say, just get some speed loaders from TOW or Dixie but its different down here.

Bear in mind that our gun shops are few and far between in this country and not all of them carry blackpowder "doings". As far as importing anything into Australia for a firearms related need is a something that can turn into a very long and expensive exercise fraught with customs and internal postal service delays.

Anyway I really do enjoy the make it yourself aspect of the sport.

[peter72]

Here's a couple of pics of my custom made possibles bag.
http://images.tapatalk-cdn.com/15/10/27/20aec9867cdb6910f3472c135c379ab2.jpg
http://images.tapatalk-cdn.com/15/10/27/0b054c3a4348f8246a3bf7321d012a87.jpg

[Whiterabbit]

oh, now I like THAT. How do I get me one of those?

[peter72]

Sent you a pm whiterabbit