"paper Patching" With Copper?

[willdixon]

Gentlemen:

I'm just now getting started in studying the art of paper patching, and will hopefully be using paper-patched swaged bullets in my 50/90.

RICHARD CORBIN is one of the leading experts in this field, as you know, and he has given me a great thought!

On his web site, he says:

"For the advanced paper patched bullet user other materials such as Teflon tape, adhesive computer labels, or copper foil can be tried. Copper foil, available at stained glass shops, has a great deal of potential and allows higher velocities than will paper patches." See http://rceco.com/img/RSBook4.PDF

WOW! COPPER FOIL INSTEAD OF PAPER!

Have any of you gents tried this?

Thank you very much!

[pdawg_shooter]

Higher velocity? If you use the right alloy I havent found a velocity limit yet. Sounds like a lot more expense for no gain!

[bcp477]

Given the ridiculous prices of jacketed bullets these days....and the ridiculous price of copper...I doubt that the copper foil would be available at a reasonable price. Paper patching offers all the velocity potential needed for virtually any application. So why mess with it, if it ain't broken ? Teflon tape, etc. , I do find interesting, but again, using paper is well-proven (and cheap).

Just my 2 cents.....

[willdixon]

Yes, bcp477 and pdawg-shooter I've come to agree with you, but for an entirely different reason.

Corbin is probably one of the leading bullet experts on Earth, so I highly honor his opinions about paper patching.

But I just learned that this copper is backed with glue, which would mean you'd have to "glue" it to your bullets, as you would Corbin's adhesive backed computer labels. And I'm gonna' keep on believin' Corbin knows whereof he speaks, but I just would not want to GLUE ANYTHING to the outside of my bullets. I simply cannot help but believe this might raise flyer issues.

Oh well, it was a nice idea while it lasted.

Thanks for your thoughts

Gene

[pdawg_shooter]

The patch, any patch, must leave the bullet at the muzzle. Anything else and accuracy is nonexistent.

[willdixon]

Yes, precisely, pdawg.

But it would surely seem to me that if you had a thin sheet of copper GLUED to your bullet, it would NOT fall off the bullet as it left the muzzle.

I'm dumb. I don't understand what Corbin can be thinking about - GLUING copper or computer labels to the bullets????? But it's on his web site.

Gene

[pdawg_shooter]

I havent tried copper but over the years I have tried most everything else. If it dont come off it wont shoot well, or at all. Plain paper wet with plain water works. Why go anywhere else? I have enough problems in life without inviting more!

[leftiye]

How about copper plating instead? One could use old copper pipes for the positive electrode. I would expect that a thicker plating would be better?

[rhead]

It either all has to come off or all stay on every time or the bullet can go off any where. I ain't sure I can get it to all stay on even with glue. I know I can get it to all come off with paper.
I can see the advantage in the carrying and shipping for commercial makers but I can't see it for homade ones.
[smilie=1:Didn't a few bullet makers try wrapping bullets up in copper some way back around 1890 or so? What did they call them? Jacketed?[smilie=1:

[willdixon]

As you can see from my last post, RHEAD, I completely agree with you.

I originally thought Corbin was talking about wrapping a .002" sheet of copper around a paper patch bullet, intending for the copper to fall off after leaving the muzzel. Sounded great!

But he was not.

I learned later this thin copper comes with an adhesive on one side!

And I can't imagine what Mr. Corbin - one of the top bullet desigers in the world - was thinking of when he suggested this. I guess it had to have been a cheap copper-clad thing?

Call him and ask him, will ya?

[bcp477]

Copper PLATING of bullets is certainly an attractive idea.....especially if it could be effected at home, without a huge investment and without much "infrastructure".... but I doubt that this is practical. As well, I think that some or all of the chemicals used in copper plating are very toxic.....another important consideration. If however, all of the various technical and safety hurdles could be overcome....it would be a great idea. (Cast or swage your own bullet cores....then make your own "jacketed" bullets....for far less coin than buying jacketed bullets....how cool would that be !!!) Of course, with the price of copper these days, I'm not sure it would be viable, even then.

Paper patching, in my opinion, still gets the nod. Easy, cheap and effective....and requiring no "facilities"......

[leftiye]

bcp477, I've studied the plating process a little. The first thing that jumps out at you is that when plating lead a non-acidic solution must be used. I had thought at first to just dissolve copper with nitric or hydrocloric acid, and go to it, now i'm not too sure. There are companies out there selling less toxic solutions that don't contain some of the poisonous gasses that the used to have. As for power source, a 10 amp 10 volt dc (probly 5 volts is enough) should be plenty to do 100 boolits at a time. Google plating, the companies that come up describe their solutions, and power requirements. This is all off of the top of my head, and I admit I'm a little foggy about it. Fly in the ointment is that I've heard that at higher velocities the plating comes off?

[jhalcott]

This plating is "POSSIBLE".But is time consuming . You need to heat the solution to about 105 degrees. The bullets must be CLEAN, NO oils or greases on them. The molds have to be made a few thousandths SMALLER than normal bullets of the caliber. Remember the plating will be .002" or more thick PER SIDE! A .429 inch bullet before plating will be .433 after. A train set transformer can be used for the power source and is adjustable as well. Copper sulphate is harder to get these days then it was in the 70/80's. Disposing of the waste is also harder to do LEGALLY. You also need a way to hold the bullets in the solution that wont contaminate the works.

[Nrut]

As you can see from my last post, RHEAD, I completely agree with you.

I originally thought Corbin was talking about wrapping a .002" sheet of copper around a paper patch bullet, intending for the copper to fall off after leaving the muzzel. Sounded great!

But he was not.

I learned later this thin copper comes with an adhesive on one side!

And I can't imagine what Mr. Corbin - one of the top bullet desigers in the world - was thinking of when he suggested this. I guess it had to have been a cheap copper-clad thing?

Call him and ask him, will ya?

Hey Will....you are the one that started this thread...why don't you give Corbin a call....
I have not heard of using "glue on copper patches" but have read about using masking tape and glue on computer label patches....To say it doesn't work offhand is to have a closed mind...[smilie=1:

[willdixon]

Ha ha ha - no NRUT - YOU call him and ask him - not ME!

And yes, Corbin also mentioned using glue-backed typewriter address labels for paper patches.

And I ain't sayin' that wouldn't work.

I'm only sayin' I AIN'T GONNA TRY IT - I'VE GOT A NARROW AND CLOSED MIND.

[bcp477]

I think that I will just stick with good old-fashioned paper-patching, myself. It is good enough....so it will do for me.

[willdixon]

Yeah, me too!

But I've got a great idea.

They say 100% rag is the best.

Well I miked the thickness, and American dollar bills are about the right thickness for paper patches, and they're 100% cotton!

Interestingly enough, did you know that 80% of the cotton rag content in your American paper money comes from cloth scraps which the Treasury buys for dungaree manufacturers like Levi's and such? No joke - this is true.

A pile of paper patched cartridges stacked up on your shooting table at the range - patched with American greenbacks - ought's create quite a stir - huh?

[Lead pot]

I have just about wrapped my swaged bullets after there swaged and lead cores wrapped with linen, copper sheets like mentioned here and teflon before running them through the swage die, for get it!! or you will be chasing your tail like a dog wanting to get at a flea on his tail.
Like mentioned above you dont want a patch to stay with the bullet unless you can keep it all on all the way to what you want to hit.
This copper foil, you will find it on the ground from 25 to anywhere between 200 yards.
A bullet that leaves the muzzle at 1280 fps will rotate at 51,200 RPM and if that jacket is not tied together the centrifugal force will peal it off but than again I have had paper patches stay on too:roll: so go figure.

LP

[willdixon]

NO LEADPOT, I GAVE UP ON THAT IDEA LONG AGO.

When I first read Corbin's recommendation, I posted that here.

But then my daughter, who does stained glass work for a hobby, told me this copper paper had a glue on one side. And I instantly realized it would be a dumb idea to use it as paper patch. And I said so here on this thread.

Now, if it were just some copper sheet paper, perhaps 0.0014" in thickness, it might work great for paper patch. I don't know.

But OBVIOUSLY you don't want to GLUE anything to your paper patch bullets.

Cheers!

[Lead pot]

Nope:drinks:

[Flinchrock]

Just out of idle curiosity,,,aren't you supposed to wrap your patches opposite to the rifleing??

[willdixon]

HI FLINTLOCK -

Yes, the patch with the bevel edge must be opposite to the direction of the rifling twist. See LOADING AND SHOOTING PAPER PATCHED BULLETS, by Randolph Wright, page 32.

[pdawg_shooter]

That was true with the old shallow rifling first intended for paper. Modern rifling is deep enough that if you have you sizes correct it doesn't make any difference how you wrap the bullet.

[Zeek]

The patch, any patch, must leave the bullet at the muzzle. Anything else and accuracy is nonexistent.

Well, the discarded-patch works fine. That is for sure! However, I have found that 2X (i.e., two times around the boolit) adhesive label patches CAN work very nicely too, even though the patch stays on the boolit after leaving the muzzle. Copper foil? Boy! I never tried that. Likewise Teflon tape.

On the labels, for 35cal and under, use the 3-columns-on-a-page type of label . . . the type that has SQUARE-ENDS (no rounded corners).

Veral Smith turned me on to the adhesive label option. These have are non-spiral-ended patches (square ends) that are cut to a length where it will just come around twice and end in a butt-fit (not as bad as it sounds). You must PICK your length to STOP before the rear end of the boolit. I like to have the front end tucked down in a crimping groove (tends to make it snag-proof) and the rear edge sticking out over the GC shank ~0.020" ~~~> you then use your thumbnail, while twirling the boolit, to tuck the front end down into the crimp groove (then switch it end-for-and) and tuck the rear end over the edge and down onto the front end of the GC shank. I usually put on a GC when sizing to final diameter. Thus, to be clear, the "seam" where the finishing end of the patch meets the starting end is parallel with the boolit axis.

Wrap these patches on just between your fingers ~~~> get the patch looking square across the boolit and with its front end at the forward side of the crimp groove, then start it around and keep twirling it on between your fingers, watching out for deviant tendencies. Once your batch is wrapped, stick them in the oven at 200F for one or two hours to "set" the adhesive, then let them cool and then lube VERY LIGHTLY (especially if the lube has any oil in it . . . for that will ruin the adhesive bond, over time!) and run them through your sizer die point first, adding a GC if desired.

Hint: Here is a damn good use for your Rooster Jacket lube, if you have any, for it has no oils in it. Just spin some on the boolit's jackets jackets and then let them dry completely prior to sizing.

They seat, chamber, and shoot just like regular paper patched boolits, but there is no "snow flurry" at the muzzle.
Regards, Zeek