Siziing problem/help

[anotherred]

I've been having problems with bad leading through my 45acp. I slugged the end of the barrel and measured .451 with a micrometer and a caliper. I then cast bullets with COWW and 2% Tin then air cooled for a couple of weeks then size. When I run them through a lee .452 die (and even a couple through a different .452 die) they measure out at .451. I believe this is my leading issue? And why are they coming out small? A really nice feller here said this will happen with softer lead. I'm not question him, just looking for a few more opinions.

[Seeker]

I was having the same trouble with a Lee 2-cavity TL 200 gr. swc. They were dropping small. I cooled down the pot to about 650-675 and had the same results. Then I beagle the mold with foil duct tape and they started dropping at .453 and size to .452 nicely. What Temp. are you casting at?

[Cowboy_Dan]

You can hone out your dies pretty easily with high grit sandpaper. .001-.002 doesn't take long so be sure to check often and leave a bit for polishing. However, you may also want to make sure you don't have a sharp throat in your barrel shaving lead and making the boolit even more undersized. Good luck.

[Yodogsandman]

Can you describe your leading? What type lube are you using? Just curious...

[runfiverun]

your starting at the wrong end.
the muzzle is the last thing you need to look at.
start with your boolits, look at what you are doing to them throughout the sizing/loading process.
then look at the cylinders and throat of the gun.
you want to look at how the cast boolits and the cylinder throats compare to each other, and how the boolits will progress through to the muzzle.

[bangerjim]

Agree^^^^^^^^. Start at the beginning not at the end of your casting & shooting process.

[Larry Gibson]

What lube? I've shot tons of .451 sized cast bullets through numerous M1911s w/o leading using that same alloy. My go to size for all my .45 ACP loads for M1911s is .451.

Larry Gibson

[williamwaco]

What mold?
What lube?
I have quit buying Lee molds because they all ( recently purchased ) cast undersized bullets.
Actually Lyman are just as bad.
The last 9mm mold I bought drops .354 to .355.
I use COWW but I don't add tin.
I find the .45 ACP to be very easy to load and honestly do not remember ever leading one.

If your measurements are accurate, I suspect lube.

[fryboy]

dont use the calipers ! only the mic
i've shot some very very soft alloy thru various 45 acp's , the less tin and antimony the smaller and heavier the casting , also the softer it is , some of those alloys dont quite mic at .451 when cast in a mold that cast a respectable .452 with #2 alloy (which would be a waste of alloy in my humble opinion for this caliber ) some of my hp's have been almost pure lead with just a wee bit of tin ( less than 1% ) these all shot fine and expanded beautifully ( yes in spite of the small size )
my best suggestion(s)
size as soon as possible after casting ( some alloys still grow a wee bit ) especially if water quenching
cut your ww's at least in half with either pure or stick on's
pull a loaded boolit and make sure that your reloading/crimping isnt further sizing the projectile down

you didnt list a powder or charge but a mid range loading of most common powders should be no problem , most of my plinking loads using the softer of alloys are barely above book starting loads using unique ( i usually tend to go with slower powders when at all possible )

[wv109323]

The .451 boolit's may be a problem if the loads are hot. Are the boolit's small when sized or are they small when cast?Being small when cast can be lead alloy or a mold that is too small.
Being small when sized is a die problem. You could open up the die to .452.

[anotherred]

Ok, I'm back with more info. The leading starts some what after the chamber, and gets real bad by the muzzle. I just pulled the barrel (1911 Smith and Wesson E series is what we're working on) and slugged the chamber side. It mic. out at .4515-.452. I do expand the brass with the M die and only crimp with lee die, but not enough to size the bullet, just to remove the flair basically. The load is 5.0gr. or w231 over a Winchester SPP. The bullets drop from the mold around 0.453-4 and I tumble lube them with the lee alox and liquid floor wax mix (as posted here by another member).
Now back to the question on sizing, why is it when I run the bullets through a .452 die, they come out at .451? The are deffently starting bigger and coming out under sized (I just checked yet again). Is this normal for softer 10-12bh lead?

[fryboy]

"why is it when I run the bullets through a .452 die, they come out at .451? "

alloy can play a part in this , most sizing dies are not spec'd for the actual alloy we end up using , add that to tolerances and quality control ..., again even tho you are umm not crimping the crud out of them i still suggest to pull a round and mic the boolit , it could be that even tho you believe that you're merely removing the flare the case it's self could be sizing it down ( happens sometimes [shrugz] ) either way it would eliminate a possible variable or perhaps better put change an unknown into a known
another thought is ( since you're running them thru a lee sizer ) do not size them and see if loading a dummy cartridge if they will chamber
now about another great unsaid .....about lubing procedure please ... do you coat before and after sizing ? and if so have you tried two coats after sizing ? yes this can sometimes stop problems

[anotherred]

I did just try loading some, then pulled and mic. again. Defiantly not crushing them. I thought this might be one of the problems at the beginning of this saga. As for the out of spec on the sizer is what really gets me, is it not only happened with the lee die, but with a die from one of our talented machinists here that makes them for the star. Now I have not lubed any on the star. I use the lee die to size then tumbled and tried some tumble lubed, sized and retumble lubed.

[Larry Gibson]

You might try using the LLA straight as per the directions. Lube 1st, especially if a TL bullet then size and then TL again. Use light coats of LLA and let it dry thoroughly before the next step.

Larry Gibson

[bruce381]

""Now back to the question on sizing, why is it when I run the bullets through a .452 die, they come out at .451?"'

No one has answered this it because the sizer is DUH too small, if you say they drop from mold at .453-.454 and the sizer is really .452.

They should come out .452 it the are .451 the sizer is TOO small.

Get a new sizer or hone out the one you have.

I get with same load .451 vs .452 leading after 100 or so round with the .451 but NONE with the .452
Go bigger if it still leads go with better/different lube.

[runfiverun]

quite often a die cutter will make a 452 die closer to 451 because many alloys will spring-back after sizing.
you then get the required 452 diameter.
if your alloy is somewhat low in antimony or has a higher tin content the spring back can take a little more time. [or not happen at all]
I would just polish the extra .001 out of the die.

then look at my lube procedure.
like Larry mentioned 2 light coats [one before and one after sizing] is the better option.

after all that, you might be fighting a gun that has no throat and no matter what you do the rifling peels away a slight amount of lead from the boolit causing you problems when it gets run over in the barrel.

[anotherred]

Thanks for all the ideas. I'll grab a pin gauge from work tomorrow and measure out my sizers.
What bothers me now is when I slugged the chamber end it mic. out at .4515-.452. If I size to .452 and the barrel starts at .452 is that going to give me leading issues?

[mdi]

One thought; did you measure the diameter of the bullets prior to sizing? A .451" bullet ain't gonna grow .001" when pushed through a .452" die...

[popper]

spring back - Pb/Sn doesn't. Had the same problem with 40SW. Might want to get another sizer to play with unless you know for sure what alloy you will be using. Don't mike the barrel, push an oiled boolit through and measure that.