What 45 Long weight for Cowboy Action?

[Just Duke]

The caliber the wife and I are going to go with is 45 Long Colt which will be run through Ruger Vaquero's and Marlin 1894 Cowboy guns.
What wieght cast bullet does most shooter use for this event?
(We don't care if we win, we are there for the fun of it. ;).)

Does the SASS rules allow the Lee 200 or 250 grain bullet?
If so I could pick up a couple of 6 cavities and bang out a b-jillion in no time at all.

[Ricochet]

Not what you're asking, but I'm wondering if the Lee 452-160-RF (available only in 2-cavity) was made for .45 Colt CAS use?

[Scrounger]

Real accuracy isn't a factor. Most "cowboys" go with the lightest possible bullet and just enough powder to get the bullet out the end of the barrel. Minimum recoil in other words. Like most competitive games, they've made a mockery of it's origins.

[Scrounger]

Not what you're asking, but I'm wondering if the Lee 452-160-RF (available only in 2-cavity) was made for .45 Colt CAS use?

Good question. If I were shooting cowboy, I think I'd use a .451 round ball in the .45. Or better yet, a .32-20.

[Just Duke]

Real accuracy isn't a factor. Most "cowboys" go with the lightest possible bullet and just enough powder to get the bullet out the end of the barrel. Minimum recoil in other words. Like most competitive games, they've made a mockery of it's origins.

Yes I agree, it has turned into more of a game. Kinda like combat pistol did in the "80" with race guns kept lovingly in a pistol case only to be unshethed at the gun range.

[compass will]

I haven't done it yet, but I will be shooting 250 grain 45 colt this summer out of my Uberti's and my Puma 92. I had been buying them from a guy that makes them with a boolet machine. him, and all his buddies use them for SASS.
Now I have the Lee 6 holer flat point in 255 grain mold. I think I ran 250 last night. I been throwing them back into the pot just so I can cast some more. (Yes, its a disease, but I am waiting for my top punch and die for the lyman so might as well practice)

My Uberti's hit POA with the 250's, Hope the lee works out as well. I figure why mess with a good thing.

[shooter93]

The only thing a REAL cowboy would ever carry in a 45 Colt is a bullet weighing 250 grains or more.....this includes John Bernard Books....smiles.

[joatmon]

I beleive in the 250 - 255gr thought also and if I ever try sass it will be for the fun factor.
Now I would like to be as authinic as possable but! with the price of lead and it getting
harder to aquire I think I would see if one of the 200gr boolits would feed in the Marlin
and if so that would be my cheep choice.

[ktw]

Lyman 454190 or similar

http://i57.photobucket.com/albums/g232/ktwna/reloading/454190_ad.jpg

-ktw

[runfiverun]

160's is very popular nowdays but i don't think they have enough lube for
repeated use in the rifle, pistols they are great [ and good for shooting grouse too]
but i would go with the 200 or 225.

[Irascible]

I used a 200gr over a small charge of AA #2 in my 45s for Cowboy. I finally got tired of powder blowing back in my face and black cases from low pressure in the Marlin, so I switched calibers. You may also want to think of using 45 Schofield brass in the revolvers or even Adirondack Jacks 45 brass which is the length of a 45 ACP or 44 Russian (there is an ad in the back of the SASS paper).
If you want to relive the past and have fun go with heavy bullets and FL cases. If you want a shot at placing well, you need low recoil in the handguns. Winning outright is another story, the guys that win are really fast! But, the people are mostly great and it's a lot of fun. I've been doing it for 6 years. "Irascible Curmudgeon"

[Morgan Astorbilt]

I, along with my son, shoot Cowboy Action, and we've been using a 160gr. bullet over 4.25gr, Bullseye in both our pistols and rifles for about four years, shooting three matches a month. That's 720 shots a month, not counting practice, between the pistols and rifles. I shoot both Ubertis and Ruger new Vaqueros, and in .45LC, a Rossi Hartford 1892, along with both an original Marlin 1894 in .38-40(retired),and an Uberti '73 in .38-40. My son shoots Rugers, and a Marlin 1894. Neither of us have had any problems with the 160gr. bullets, in any of our firearms.
I started with a Lee #90520 double cavity, but looked for something better. A fellow shooter got in on a special order Lee 6 cavity in this bullet. Not liking aluminum molds, I went with a NEI # 284A 180gr.4 cavity in Meehanite, which I cut down on my Bridgeport, to 160gr. Below is the mold and a sample bullet (R) along side a commercially cast 160gr.(L). Notice the reduced thickness of the driving band, as compared with the commercial bullet. This took extra care in setting up the Starr sizer.
If you're getting into Cowboy, and shooting .45LC, you might as well start with the 160gr. All the fast shooters who shoot .45 use them, and eventually, you will want to also.
Morgan

http://i201.photobucket.com/albums/aa159/pgfaini/mold1-1.jpg

[Throckmorton]

I"ve used 200's for quite some time now and I"m happy with them for cowboy shoots.The 255's were just a little too much recoil,and the 165's were just too danged small to call them a 45colt.,dangit. :)

You my think yo're just in it for the fun,but the 1st time you win a ribbon,you'll be gaming it just like the rest of us do,to one extent or the other.LOL

[ChuckS1]

There's no power factor in Cowboy Action? Where's the fun in that? Geez, might as well bring out my old Mattel Shootin' Shell Winchester!

[Throckmorton]

power factor??

well,the bullets have to reach the target to be a hit.


does that count as a 'power factor'match?? :) :) :)









There actually is a Pard whose boolit bounced off a cardboard target 1 day.....he hasn't lived it down yet . lol

[Scrounger]

Sometimes they have to travel as much as 50 feet!

[Scrounger]

I'm working on a Winchester look alike that uses rubber bands to propel marbles. It will be The Ultimate Cowboy Rifle.

[Cherokee]

You might consider the RCBS 45-230CM @ 230 gr from WW. The Lee 200 gr should do fine also but I would not go any lighter myself.

BTW, I don't think Scrounger's idea of a 451 ball in a 32-20 would work too well.

[Just Duke]

There's no power factor in Cowboy Action? Where's the fun in that? Geez, might as well bring out my old Mattel Shootin' Shell Winchester!

AGREED! From what I am told they are trying to change this behind the scenes.

[Just Duke]

Lyman 454190 or similar

http://i57.photobucket.com/albums/g232/ktwna/reloading/454190_ad.jpg

-ktw


that's a good looking round KTW. :-D

[Morgan Astorbilt]

AGREED! From what I am told they are trying to change this behind the scenes.

We're trying to come up with minimum velocities, but don't want heavy loads either, because we're shooting at steel plate targets, not corrugated cardboard, and they're pretty expensive to replace, which is often enough as it is, not to mention ricochets.. Shotshells have to be loaded with #7-1/2 or smaller shot due to splatter coming back and hitting shooters. Not a match goes by that I don't get hit with something, usually shotgun pellets. I've been hit with a .45 that ricocheted off a target two stages away (about100ft). It's just part of the game.

Fast shooters can fire 10 pistol, 10 rifle, and 4 shotgun rounds in less than 30sec. This is from an empty shotgun with no more than 2 rds, loaded at a time. And all shots hitting the targets.
You can't do this with 250gr, bullets in your .45.

Morgan

[John Boy]

Real accuracy isn't a factor. Most "cowboys" go with the lightest possible bullet and just enough powder to get the bullet out the end of the barrel. Minimum recoil in other words. Like most competitive games, they've made a mockery of it's origins.
Scrounger - can partially agree with the general populace shooting CAS ... but:
45 Colt - 250gr PRS bullet - 35grs of FFFg tain't minimum recoil. It's called a WartHog Load!
http://www.theopenrange.net/forum/index.php?topic=10.0
__________________

As for SASS Power Factors, the 2008 Handbook has Power Factors:

The minimum standard for center-fire smokeless ammunition used in all SASS matches State, Regional, National, International, and World Championship Competitions is not less than a minimum power factor of 60 and no velocity may be less than 400 fps. The maximum velocity standard for revolvers is 1000 fps. The maximum velocity standard for rifles is 1400 fps. Pocket pistols, derringers, and long-range rifles are exempt from the power factor and velocity requirements.

[ktw]

Fast shooters can fire 10 pistol, 10 rifle, and 4 shotgun rounds in less than 30sec. This is from an empty shotgun with no more than 2 rds, loaded at a time. And all shots hitting the targets.
You can't do this with 250gr, bullets in your .45.


If you had 250s @ 900 fps in your 45 you could get the job done in a lot fewer than 24 shots. You wouldn't need to be carrying around so many guns. :-D

-ktw

[Morgan Astorbilt]

If you had 250s @ 900 fps in your 45 you could get the job done in a lot fewer than 24 shots. You wouldn't need to be carrying around so many guns. :-D

-ktw

I take it you're not referring to Cowboy Action. I'm always packing, and it's either my .32 Seecamp, or when clothing permits, My 10mm. Delta Elite, loaded with 180gr. Sierra JHP's ahead of 11.5gr. AA#7. That enough gun for you?:Fire:
Morgan

[Just Duke]

Scrounger - can partially agree with the general populace shooting CAS ... but:
45 Colt - 250gr PRS bullet - 35grs of FFFg tain't minimum recoil. It's called a WartHog Load!
http://www.theopenrange.net/forum/index.php?topic=10.0
__________________

As for SASS Power Factors, the 2008 Handbook has Power Factors:

The minimum standard for center-fire smokeless ammunition used in all SASS matches State, Regional, National, International, and World Championship Competitions is not less than a minimum power factor of 60 and no velocity may be less than 400 fps. The maximum velocity standard for revolvers is 1000 fps. The maximum velocity standard for rifles is 1400 fps. Pocket pistols, derringers, and long-range rifles are exempt from the power factor and velocity requirements.

I read the open range article and agree with it. As far as the targets go the ones I buy from MGM Targets (http://www.mgmtargets.com/faqs/index.php) last 5 to 10 years of hard use with High Power rifle rounds.

[Morgan Astorbilt]

The targets the three clubs I shoot with, are supposed to be 1/2" armor plate, some are made locally, but some may be MGM's. The rifle targets are the ones that break, usually lasting less than 5 years, generally cracking down the middle. These are with pistol caliber lead bullet rifle loads. I believe the targets cost about $75-$125 ea. depending on the size.
The targets used for long range Buffalo matches are about the same, but the longer distances allow them to take hits from the big rifles.

I don't think any of these targets are tungsten steel. I use 1/2" tungsten steel plates at a 45º angle as backstops for my 25yd & 50yd. pistol ranges at home, and they take jacketed bullets with no damage, but it's due to being at an angle. At 100yds., I've got a 4" thick plate from a rock crusher that even a 4000fps. bullet from my Swift or .22-250, only makes the slightest nick. I think it's also tungsten steel. I got them at no cost from my friends scrap metal yard. They didin't want them because tungsten steel isn't magnetic, and can't be lifted with the magnetic crane. All the pieces have to have a hole burned in them or a ring welded on, to be lifted with a hook.

If I'm rambling on, it's because I had a root canal this afternoon, and the pain won't let me sleep.:sad:

Morgan

[Ricochet]

Lots of magneto magnets used to be made of tungsten steel.

[35remington]

"but don't want heavy loads either, because we're shooting at steel plate targets, not corrugated cardboard, and they're pretty expensive to replace, which is often enough as it is, not to mention ricochets."

How is it that IPSC shooters get by with the loads they do as regards safety? Do they have more money that they can replace targets more often? A .38 Super is a lot harder on targets than any lead bullet standard power load in the authentic cartridges for the cowboy sports. Even if they somehow got gassed up to realistic levels.

It seems to me Scrounger's got his points here.

As I think Jeff Cooper once said, shooting minimum loads in an old timey match is sorta like a matador trying to raise the level of his expertise by tackling goats.

I love the spectacle of the few cowboy shoots I've been to and they've been a good time, but the "pip pip" of pistol and rifle mouse fart loads is sorta amusing.

Take my comments for what they are worth as a fella who really doesn't understand the whole thing and wonders why the loads have to fall so far short of reality. The ironic thing is everyone loves the authentic dress and avoids the authentic power levels.

[Morgan Astorbilt]

Your point is well taken, although all the ISPC, and Three Gun matches I've seen around here, use corregated cardboard targets, not steel pepper poppers.
In reality, race guns are no closer to real world police sidearms than a mouse fart loaded SAA is to Old West firearms, or for that matter, Trap and Skeet resemble duck or bird hunting. They're all just sports, and I've tried most of them, starting with the original Mexican Defense matches back in the fifities.(Which I believe started it all).
I enjoy all shooting sports, and don't believe we should knock one over the other. Let's just be thankful for what we've got, and to quote Chief Joseph of the Nez Perce Tribe, (and later Chief Dan George in "The Outlaw Jose Wales"), endeavor to perservere.:drinks:
Morgan

[Morgan Astorbilt]

Lots of magneto magnets used to be made of tungsten steel.


I'm pretty sure they're tungsten steel. They always referred to it as this. I'm going to do a little research as to its properties.
ALNICO magnets are made of aluminum, nickel, and copper, only one of which, nickel, is mildly magnetically attracted.
Morgan

[Morgan Astorbilt]

Ricochet, I checked out non-magnetic steels in my Materials Handbook, and the only two alloys mentioned were Nickel Steel and Manganese Steel. I'm assuming the steel I've got is manganese, and either it was wrongly described to me, or I've somehow forgotten the original alloy.:confused:
I find it strange, that adding nickel would remove the magnetic properties of steel. Nickel, being magnetic, is what makes it possible to tell bronze from brass, using a magnet suspended from a string.
Morgan

[xtimberman]

If you're getting into Cowboy, and shooting .45LC, you might as well start with the 160gr. All the fast shooters who shoot .45 use them, and eventually, you will want to also.
Morgan

Morgan,

Have you had to file your front sights down on the Ubertis or Vaqueros - or do the lightweight bullets hit close enough to POA to be OK? The front sights on my Uberti (Cimarron) .44 Special and Colt SAA .45 seem to be waay too tall for bullets that are lighter than ~225gr. Bullets lighter than that hit disconcertingly low (at least for me!). I haven't tried pipsqueek charges behind the really light bullets, though.

Thanks,

xtm

[Ricochet]

AlNiCo's newfangled stuff nobody ever heard of till after WWII.

There are all sorts of steels that were used for permanent magnets before the various AlNiCos and similar alloys came along. Some of 'em had nickel in 'em, too, and pretty much all steels have some manganese. What's nonmagnetic among the common steels are the austenitic stainless steels. Most common of these are the "18-8" steels with about 18% Cr, 8% Ni. Austenitic manganese steels like "Hadfield's" are also nonmagnetic. (They have really high manganese levels, like 13%.) They're widely used in things like the digging teeth in excavators. What's important about these alloys for their nonmagnetic properties is that they remain stable in the austenite crystal structure at normal temperatures. Most steels have to be pretty hot to austenitize and revert to other structures on cooling. One test often used by amateur blacksmiths to check if they've gotten a piece of work hot enough to harden (by quenching while it's in the austenite form) is to check it with a magnet. When the magnet no longer pulls it, it's hot enough.
:-D

[Morgan Astorbilt]

xtm, I haven't had to file the sights on any of my pistols, the 160gr. bullets print just fine.
4.25gr. Bullseye behind a 160gr. bullet, isn't that much of a mouse fart load, they're moving at about 800fps.
Morgan

[xtimberman]

xtm, I haven't had to file the sights on any of my pistols, the 160gr. bullets print just fine.
4.25gr. Bullseye behind a 160gr. bullet, isn't that much of a mouse fart load, they're moving at about 800fps.
Morgan

Ha! You've got a good combination of load, firearm, and sight picture with those light bullets.

I've not been so fortunate with what I've tried so far. I've been thinking that maybe a really light load behind the lighter bullets might bring up my POI with the tall front sights - just haven't tried it, yet.

xtm

[Ricochet]

Bet it'll lower your POI. Recoil causing the muzzle to rise while the bullet's in the barrel is what raises POI. Heavy bullets do that better than anything.

[Baron von Trollwhack]

Nice thread. Especial, Thanks to KTW for posting that nice wallpaper. BvT

[Ricochet]

That is a pretty picture!

[rvpilot76]

I'm working on a Winchester look alike that uses rubber bands to propel marbles. It will be The Ultimate Cowboy Rifle.

:groner:

[Just Duke]

The LEE 255 grain runs some pretty accurate bullets if I keep putting the moulds back together.
I have a Saeco 255 grain 4 cavity mould and looking at getting a 2 cavity to go with the Mastercaster being shipped. The SAECO bullets come out with one BIG lube groove. They look real good.

[Irascible]

When I used the 45 Colt for Cowboy action, I used the RCBS Cowboy mould of around 200 grains. The advantage was how well it fed through the Marlin, which seems to be a sometimes thing in other rcalibers. I finally abandoned the 45 Colt because I got tired of black cases and soot/grit in my Marlin and back in my face, due to too light of a load.