Unlubed Boolit test

[mjwcaster]

So I tried a test of non-lubed boolits, under-lubed boolits and over-lubed boolits.
Lube- White Labs 45/45/10.
Findings- Just as you guessed.
Non-lubed boolits- Leaded heavily, ground in front of firing station covered in lead shavings.
Under-Lubed- some leading
Over-lubed, still wet- Clean barrel.

Test gun- Springfield XD 45acp 4" barrel.
Boolit- Lee 452-230-TC, cast 454, sized 452, as cast ~234gr, untested range scrap.
Powder- Green Dot / Winchester Autocomp (for over-lubed, ran out of GD)

The Green Dot load is a tested and non-leading load when lubed properly.
Lubing procedure- Heat boolits up with hair dryer and pour heated/liquified lube on them in coffee can, shake/roll around until coated.

Procedure- Fire specified # of rounds and then check and clean barrel.
Inspect barrel visually for lead and then brush out with choir-boy covered brush, over white piece of paper.

Results-

Non-Lubed
1st round- slight visual leading, replace barrel and continue
5 rounds (4 more)- definite visual leading, replace barrel and continue
10 rounds (5 more)- bad leading. Brush out barrel, significant lead on paper.
Test stopped at 10 rounds.

Non-Lubed/Under-Lubed alternate loading (load one then the other, 10 rounds total)- Still fairly significant leading, but not as bad as 10 non-lubed rounds.
Note: I did not realize that the lubed rounds were under lubed at this time, and would lead by themselves.

Under-Lubed and wet- 45/45/10 not shaken, pour out a glob into cup and heat up with hair dryer. Notice it takes a long time to liquify.
Shake and roll coffee can, everything seems coated, let dry for several hours in front of fan. Still wet, but I wanted to go to the range so I loaded them any way.
Fire 10 rounds from fairly lead free barrel (some light leading left in edges of grooves from previous test).- Notice some visual leading.
Fire another ~40 rounds, leading buildup continues, but still shootable, nothing like unlubed.
This load combo has worked fine before, so I suspect improper lubing procedure.

Over- lubed, but still wet- Shake up bottle of lube, pours out like a liquid now instead of jello, same ambient temperature.
Heat up and coat still tacky previously under-lubed boolits, using way too much lube.
Load up cartridges while boolits are still wet, dripping, nastily wet, setting boolits on paper towel and wiping off the bases and tops before loading.

Fired 60 rounds with Autocomp (load development- 3 batches of 20 rounds with different powder charges, from min to max)- No leading at all, none.

Conclusion-
-Remember to shake up the bottle of lube before using.
-Letting the lube dry sure makes loading easier, but if coated enough does not affect leading of the barrel.
-Non-lubed boolits lead a barrel (didn't need a test to figure this out, but interesting how much leading this combination produced, yet could be shot if needed).

Reason for testing- Plain Stupidity. Really I just screwed up.

A progressive press is great, it allows you to load plenty of ammo quickly.
It also allows you to make mistakes very quickly.
Like loading up 200 rounds of unlubed 45acp (206 to be exact).
Got so excited that I finally was casting good boolits and got my bench and press set back up, I couldn't fall asleep. Since I was wide awake and alert I decided to load up a batch.
Stopped at 200 rounds when I started getting tired.
Started up again the next morning and produced another 6 rounds before it hit me.
These boolits aren't lubed yet.
I size and reload in the house and did not lube these to keep the smell out of the house, meant to take them to the garage to lube up.
I even label my containers of boolits, makes it real easy to see what they are and what stage they are at, as cast, sized, lubed.
If you bother to read the label that is.

So either pull all these down or just try shooting them and see how bad it is.

Lubed up some more (incorrectly it turns out) and finish up the 100 primers I had in the press.
Go to range and test out.
Pick up more powder (Win Autocomp, only thing I could find).
Apply a second coating, over compensate with way too much lube and no time to dry before loading.

Publish my findings here.

Add another step to my reloading checklist (make sure boolits are lubed, dummy).

I only fired 100 of the 200 unlubed rounds, may try alternating them with the over lubed rounds when firing to see if that extends my cleaning interval.
I am not going to pull them, just shoot some and scrub, paying my penance.

Of course this is not a scientific test, was never meant to be.
I just found it interesting.

[reddog81]

Thanks for the writeup. I always find stuff like this interesting.
I guess this is another reason why I like powder coating my bullets. You can always tell what is ready to go.

[rsrocket1]

You should pull the 100 unlubed loaded rounds. It doesn't take long at all with a kinetic bullet puller and you can think of it like writing "I will not chew gum in class" 100 times on the chalkboard. Hopefully that will be a lesson to take your time and work carefully rather than hastily.

Secondly, it is not a good idea to load slightly damp 45/45/10 bullets. I don't think mineral spirits is a good thing for smokeless powder. At best, it doesn't help. Wait overnight for them to dry or at least blow a fan over the bullets laid flat on a wax paper lined tray or cardboard box. It typically takes an hour or so in my garage or half an hour in the outdoors on a summer afternoon. All you need is a light tan haze over the bullets. Any more than that and all you are doing is contributing to the smoke and haze at the range.

[mjwcaster]

rsrocket, I am sure it is not a good thing for the powder, which is why I dried/wiped off the bases.
These were test rounds, loaded and then driven out to the range to shoot, hence the reason for them not getting time to dry out.

As far as pulling them, it would be a waste of powder with the kinetic puller, which is in scarce supply for me.
And I think that scrubbing that much lead out of the barrel 10 times will suffice as a 'I will not do this again' reminder.

And I have enough 38 that was given to me to finish pulling (300+ done, 150 or so to go).

I have tumbled lubed bullets correctly before, I think that the biggest issue was that I had more of a solid glob, without enough solvents the first time, that even heated up a little didn't coat too well.
But I really don't know.

And as far as putting way too much on the second time, well I knew that I wasn't going to let them dry, and was testing new powder. I just didn't want them to lead, so I poured on way too much.
Which for those who haven't used Recluse lube (45/45/10) before is not much, not much needed at all.

I now have ~2K 45acp boolits lubed and drying. Probably still put too much on, real easy to over do, but no where near as much as those test rounds.
They were lubed about 5 hours ago and the solvent smell is long gone and the boolits are fairly dry.

As for being in a hurry, it was more excitement than hurry, if that makes sense. I hadn't loaded anything since spring when I moved my bench and started having troubles with my mold.
Even if I had waited until morning I think I would have done the same thing, maybe loaded up all 300 (all the primers/powder I had on hand).
The only reason I noticed in the morning was the can'o'boolits was getting low and I thought 'I need to lube up some more'.
Uhh Oh, these aren't lubed.

Lesson learned, hopefully.
And as I said before, something else to add to my reloading checklist.
I try to idiot proof my system as much as possible, and as my post shows I need it.

My life philosophy is that if we lived long enough we would all make every mistake possible.
My goal is to be careful enough to die of natural causes before I manage to make a bad mistake.
But if I were to live long enough, whether it be 1000 or 10,000 years I would make every mistake possible.

Which is a reason I do not like the Autocomp, it is possible to triple charge the case with a max load and still seat a bullet.
I prefer powders that fill over half the case volume, so a double charge spills over.
Idiot resistant at least.

I actually had my first double charge last night, had a primer issue, pulled the case out to inspect it, put it back and pulled the handle.
As soon as I did it I knew something wasn't right, stopped and pulled the double charged case(no boolit seated yet), weighed it to verify, cleared things up and restarted.
I normally visually inspect the powder throw as soon as it is thrown, index the shell plate and then inspect again as I seat the boolit.

And I try to be strict about it, I have a few cartridges that I need to pull down from my latest session, on startup I loaded a few rounds and realized that I hadn't inspected twice.
So while I am sure they were good, they weren't reloaded per my standards, so I just bagged them up to pull down.
I normally keep a puller on the bench and pull down immediately, but I reload in the house now and it was late last night, so I just bagged and marked them.
Call me paranoid, but if I can't prove that I did everything correct I pull them down (well except for lubing issues).

The difference between a single charge and a double with autocomp in 45 just doesn't shout at you loud enough for my liking.

But beggars still can't be choosers right now, Autocomp was the only thing available after driving to Cabelas that was usable in pistols.
And I hunted down the powder guy to check, they had stuff stashed in 3 different areas.
And I was not able to make the local fun show last weekend, they may have had something.

Now that I have things working right I am on the hunt for lead (supposedly a friend just found 40lbs that he just needs to pickup) and components.

Let the games begin.

[rsrocket1]

As far as pulling them, it would be a waste of powder with the kinetic puller, which is in scarce supply for me.
And I think that scrubbing that much lead out of the barrel 10 times will suffice as a 'I will not do this again' reminder.



I would never imply dumping the powder.:shock: Whenever I pull a batch of bullets (yes I admit doing it a couple of times), I save all the powder and reuse it. Even if I pulled 1 bullet, I would reuse the powder. Why not? The bullets are dry, even if they were lubed with 45/45/10 and given a chance to dry, the powder simply brushes off unlike if you had done this with unaltered Alox.

[tazman]

I would never imply dumping the powder.:shock: Whenever I pull a batch of bullets (yes I admit doing it a couple of times), I save all the powder and reuse it. Even if I pulled 1 bullet, I would reuse the powder. Why not? The bullets are dry, even if they were lubed with 45/45/10 and given a chance to dry, the powder simply brushes off unlike if you had done this with unaltered Alox.

Very true. I do the same thing when pulling a batch.

[shoot-n-lead]

Who woulda thunkit???

[longbow]

Yup! Unlubed boolits = leading. Done it myself.

In my case, I had read that if using a filler like Cream 'O Wheat that you could get away without lubing boolits.

Well, I was already using COW filler in my .303 British rounds so decided to try lead without lube. I got leading, not alot but enough to not want to do it again. Even with just a bit of lube they are fine but without it is a no go.

Yes, save that powder!

Longbow

[Motor]

Very true. I do the same thing when pulling a batch.

I pull down milsurp ammo and re-use the components all the time. I really don't understand why the OP would think pulling the un-lubed boolits would result in waisting the powder.

Besides that, in this type of situation I wouldn't even use the kinetic puller. If possible I'd simply pull them using the press and pliers then set those boolits aside to be melted down and re-cast.

If they were hard cast and or gas checked I may try to re-use them.

Motor

[mjwcaster]

You know you guys are right, I could save the powder.
I don't pull down much of my own, only a few here and there so I just dump the powder.

And the large batch I do have to pull down, I am only pulling down because I do not know who loaded them, so I do not trust the label on the little baggie, so I fertilize the lawn with the powder.

On this batch of 100 I could save the powder, but since I have no other green dot left, it would be a pain to reset my powder measure for less than 100 and then have to reset it.

Now if I had enough GD in a container already, sure I would reset the powder measure and use it up.

I thought about using the plier method, haven't tried it yet.

But in the end pulling down and reusing the powder is much more work, even if I have to scrub lead, so these will be shot.
And I can use the trigger time.

If there was a questionable load mixed in the batch of 100, then there would be no question, pull them down.

Plus I think it will be neat to see if a mixed loading with properly lubed boolits will decrease the amount of leading.

I have always wondered if properly lubed boolits would scrub lead out like jacketed will do.
Hi-Tek coated bullets seem to scrub lead out.
Probably would have never loaded just to test it, but since I already have unlubed boolits loaded ...

Anyone care to make a guess?

[rsrocket1]

Pulling 100 bullets with a kinetic puller (<$20) should take less than an hour if you set yourself up properly. 2-3 tapps on a concrete floor or 2x4, dump the bullet and powder, swap the empty case with a new cartridge, repeat. Then you pick out the bullets, dump the powder into the container and you're done. You can separate the powder even quicker with a mesh wire strainer after you are done pulling all the bullets.

BUT

You won't learn anything about shooting PC bullets in an attempt to remove lead.
You won't learn anything about shooting GC or jacketed bullets in an attempt to remove lead.
You won't learn anything about other attempts at preventing leading like dipping the nose of a bullet in grease or wax and single shot shooting them.

The best teacher is experience and it looks like you want to learn it that way so go for it. Good luck

[tazman]

There is a thread about 45-45-10 in the lube forum that mentioned something that may be useful here. The man had some loads that were leading badly. Rather than pull them, he dipped the boolet nose in 45-45-10 and let them dry, then shot them. As reported, it stopped the leading and improved the accuracy. I have no reason to disbelieve him.
It would be worth a try here so as not to have to pull the rounds.

[popper]

If there is any drive band sticking out, wipe the nose with Mazzola oil, fire single loaded.

[mjwcaster]

I should have mentioned in the OP, there is no driving band stickin out.
I had to seat these TC boolits flush with the driving band to feed properly in my XD.
So I don't think that lubing the exposed boolit would do me any good.

That is the first thought I had- 'I wish there was something bore diameter sticking out of the case on these.

Thanks for the suggestion, I wish it would work in this case.

And for the knowledge that I am not the first to load non-lubed boolits.

[tazman]

I think that the acceleration would move some of the lube from the nose to the barrel/bearing surface interface as the cartridge was fired. You wouldn't need to have bearing surface exposed.
It would probably work better with a TC design than some others.

[Motor]

mjwcaster. Lightly lube the barrel between magazines. It should cut down on your lead fouling considerably.

Motor

[runfiverun]

just lube some the right way and shoot a mag full.
then throw the unlubed ones in the mix with the properly lubed ones you won't even know they are there.
I done a test with my 41 mag [using lazer cast boolits] where I leaded up the barrel with a cylinder full then shot it clean with properly made and fitted home made boolits.
I could then shoot about 3 of the junk ones without any issues.

if your using 45/45/10 lube I always add in a little more mineral spirits, heat the lube, heat the boolits then lube and dry.
I size the batch then maybe lube again, sometimes the second coat is just more mineral spirits and more heat.
you don't need that much.

[Walter Laich]

Only thing different when I put the saved powder back in the container is to shake the container a bit to mix the pulled powder with the fresh powder.
Probably doesn't do a thing good or bad but batch is more uniform and I sleep better at night :)

[mjwcaster]

Runfiverun, glad to hear that worked for you.
I think I will be looking into adding more solvents to the 45/45/10 in the future.
I already heat up the boolits and the lube, but on that one batch I forgot to shake up the lube and they didn't work too well, were real thick and didn't melt well.
Still suspect a lack of solvents.

I wonder if this is one of the reasons why some people have issues with tumble lube and for others it works fine.

I had the lube liquid and the boolits heated up, added more than I think it really needed (according to recluse in his thread it doesn't take much).
But it still didn't work well.

And I have had it work fine before and after.

I kind of find this interesting, what works and what doesn't.

It really helps to refine a process when you know how things fail, and what to do to fix it.

Like I said before, I had always thought about testing non-lubed boolits, this was just an unplanned way to do it.

Will post back more results when I get out to the range, my folks leave for the winter in less than 3 weeks, so getting my daughter over there and spending time with them is taking precedence to shooting right now.

[runfiverun]

I helped JD develop the 45/45 formula [ I was working on something similar at the time anyway]
I use a modified version of it on a few different boolits, and it works very well in the applications I use it in.
the one main thing I do different is add in a LOT more mineral spirits.
some lanolin, and some bees-wax rounds out the changes.
I was looking for a replacement for 22 lr type lube at the time and JD was working with similar ingredients but couldn't get the lube to dry like alox.
my 22 lube was drying solid without cracking, but needed to be worked with while melted and the coat would go on too thick.
we pretty much solved each others problems and our own at the same time.

[mjwcaster]

This weekend I finally got a chance to do some more shooting (testing) with the non-lubed boolits.
Yesterday I shot several mags of lubed boolits and then followed up with 11 non-lubed.
Nasty leaded bore, smooth bore at the muzzle end, grooves filled up with lead.
Shot 10 lubed rounds, still a leaded mess.
Didn't feel like walking back for the cleaning kit, so I just kept shooting, lubed boolits, maybe another 100-200 rounds.
When I got back and cleaned the gun, there was no leading left.
I just did a real quick cleaning, quick brush, 1 wet patch and 1 dry and had a nice shiney bore.

Tried a mixed batch today, ran 15 rounds of lubed boolits to season bore, then 50 rounds non-lubed / 50 rounds lubed, alternating, load 1 lubed, 1 non-lubed.
Still leaded, but not as bad as 11 non-lubed in a row.
Shot another 50 lubed after that and the barrel looks pretty good, haven't cleaned it yet, may be a little lead left in the grooves, if so not much.

So my 45/45/10 over lubed boolits will clean lead out, but not as quickly as jacketed or commercial hi-tek coated bullets.
May have to do with alloy, as I am sure the commercial cast were harder than my range scrap.

Still beats scrubbing lead.

And trust me, while doing this I was repeating- 'I will never load non-lubed boolits again'