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View Full Version : Follow-up and results to ".223 with BLL & Ben's Red"



detroitcharlie
09-27-2015, 06:01 PM
This is a follow-up to my post in the Boolit Lube ! room, Thread: .223 with BLL & Ben's Red (http://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?288013-223-with-BLL-amp-Ben-s-Red)

I thought I'd share this in 'Casting' since I know the question of shooting cast .223 comes up quite often.

Like many other .223 shooters, I wanted to know if I could really shoot cast LRN .223 without fouling up the gas system, carrier bolt and mirroring the barrel. I read some great threads in the forums that gave me the confidence to give it a try. I will say this though, the amount of time it takes to cast .223's, size, gas check, tumble lube, pan lube and load is pure drudgery. And, at the end of the day, you can probably buy bulk FMJ's from Hornady for the near-same cost. But, what the heck- I figured I might as well try so I know I can do it.

First off, I am using a stock S&W M&P15 Sport with a 16" barrel. No mods to the hardware. No special gas blocks, buffers, carrier bolts, springs, etc.
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I cast the RCBS 22-55-SP (82007) with 50% double fluxed range lead and 50% Super Hard Alloy Ingot (30%-Antimony, 70%-Lead) from Rotometals. http://www.rotometals.com/product-p/superhardalloy.htm . I'm assuming there was some tin content from the range lead, probably less than 5%. My reasoning isn't very scientific other than I didn't want to spend a fortune casting pure linotype boolits and felt there would be more than enough hardness to keep a gas checked round from incinerating. I water quenched the boolits as well. My hardness tester is broken so I could not test BHN, but they are pretty damn hard.

I sized and gas checked the boolits with Hornaday .22 gas checks. http://www.hornady.com/store/22-Cal-Gas-Checks . They seated and crimped onto the RCBS 22-55-SP's nicely.

I then tumble lubed the boolits in BLL (Ben's liquid lube), twice. I left 24 hrs in between lubing. I then pan lubed them in BR (Ben's Red) adjusted slightly for better flow (reduced the beeswax by about 20-25% and added a tad more STP oil treatment, see http://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?288013-223-with-BLL-amp-Ben-s-Red for more about this.
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I reloaded the the boolits in some REM .223 brass from the range using CCI #450 primers and Hodgdon's CFE 223 COPPER FOULING ERASER (CFE™). I got a bunch of it on sale and wanted to try it out on my FMJ's but figured I might as well use it up in this test. I won't publish the load data here, but I used the 'starting' load for my test. The starting load calculates approximately 3000+ FPS with approximately 44,000+ PSI. I did NOT exceed the starting load. The Hodgdon's load data can be found here. http://www.hodgdonreloading.com/data/rifle .
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I shot 100 rounds over the course of an hour. I spaced out my shooting to about 1 round per second and a half. No rapid fire. No problems with feeding, not a single jam and no primer failures. Groupings within an inch to two inches at 50 yards, great accuracy. The last 20 rounds I fired in groups of five (rapid fire) with a very hot barrel to see if I could encourage 'leading.' Performance was great, I couldn't tell the difference between shooting a 55 grn FMJ and the cast 55 grn LRN.

I started with a clean rifle. I broke down the gun and checked the gas ports, carrier bolt, barrel, etc. No evidence of 'leading' or mirroring of the barrel. Normal carbon buildup around the carrier bolt, but that's it. I gave the rifle a good clean with a lead solvent and re-oiled for next weekend. All-in-all, I have to say- if you have the time and patience to cast your own .223's or have some reason to do so, it 'can' be done. Everyone's rifle is different, but my stock S&W Sport is pretty 'default' for your average AR15, so I don't see why other's wouldn't have similar success. I think one of the biggest factors in keeping the 'leading' away was the double dip of BLL and the addition of Ben's Red paired together with a gas checked boolit and kept at starting loads. I wouldn't want to push it any farther, just glad I got to where I did without a catastrophe ;)
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Yodogsandman
09-27-2015, 06:59 PM
Catastrophe? Lead bullets being slipperier run at lower pressures than jacketed. Always trust your gut feelings, though.

Thanks for the nice write up and photos!

Is that lead shavings on the bolt?

detroitcharlie
09-27-2015, 07:11 PM
Catastrophe? Lead bullets being slipperier run at lower pressures than jacketed. Always trust your gut feelings, though.

Thanks for the nice write up and photos!

Is that lead shavings on the bolt?

I've been told by so many people not to attempt shooting LRN 223's because it'll foul up the gas system- so, that's the catastrophe I was worried about =] But I'm glad I did follow my gut!

No, it wasn't lead shavings, but I can see how they look like it. If you look to the right side (5 o'clock position) of the bolt, you'll see some dark oily carbon deposits and some un-burned powder grains that get lighter as you move clockwise around the bolt. I am holding it under a super bright LED lamp, the oily carbon and powder grains are reflecting the light.

Jupiter7
09-27-2015, 10:53 PM
Disassemble the bolt. The lube buildup will be on the boattail and gas rings. Not detrimental but dirty, the longer it sits, the worse it is to clean up. It could eventually cause failure. Just basic maintenance with any AR, with lubed bullets, it'll require it more often.

runfiverun
09-28-2015, 12:35 AM
yeah 500 or so rounds down the road will leave you with something in there to clean out.
I use a harder lube than your using and clean mine when it starts getting a bit sluggish, I clean them about the same interval with copper wrapped bullets too.

looks like your getting about the same results I get with maybe a little more velocity than I get in my 1-8/1-9 twist barrels. [using imr 4895]
I'm assuming your rifle has a 1-9 twist.

detroitcharlie
09-28-2015, 08:08 AM
Disassemble the bolt. The lube buildup will be on the boattail and gas rings. Not detrimental but dirty, the longer it sits, the worse it is to clean up. It could eventually cause failure. Just basic maintenance with any AR, with lubed bullets, it'll require it more often.

Appreciate the advice!

detroitcharlie
09-28-2015, 08:11 AM
yeah 500 or so rounds down the road will leave you with something in there to clean out.
I use a harder lube than your using and clean mine when it starts getting a bit sluggish, I clean them about the same interval with copper wrapped bullets too.

looks like your getting about the same results I get with maybe a little more velocity than I get in my 1-8/1-9 twist barrels. [using imr 4895]
I'm assuming your rifle has a 1-9 twist.
Yep 1:9. What velocity are you getting? You check it with a chrono?

GabbyM
09-28-2015, 10:15 AM
I'd be interested on how your load performs at 100 and 200 yards. That's lots of rotational speed for a cast bullet. The velocity you cited from the CFE data is from a 24 inch test barrel so your 16" carbine would be a couple hundred fps slower. Still impressive velocity. I run My 1:14" twist 222 Rem CZ-527 at 2,400 fps and it gets out to 200 yards quite well.

detroitcharlie
09-28-2015, 12:44 PM
I'd be interested on how your load performs at 100 and 200 yards. That's lots of rotational speed for a cast bullet. The velocity you cited from the CFE data is from a 24 inch test barrel so your 16" carbine would be a couple hundred fps slower. Still impressive velocity. I run My 1:14" twist 222 Rem CZ-527 at 2,400 fps and it gets out to 200 yards quite well.

This Saturday I'll test at 100 yards and see how things go.. using a red dot with no magnification in a dark range, so not the best setup for test past 50 yrds, but will certainly give it a "shot."