Shooting 30-06 without Gas Check

[louis]

Hello Everyone,


My first post...and I want to thank all for this wonder rich website. I've spent past few night reading up on it's content and am just amazed at my findings.

I'm interested in trying Ed Harris' "The Load" in my 30-06 but do not want to use gas checks. From what I've read so far, it appears to be more trouble than it's worth.

Using Red Dot, how much lower than the recommended 13 grains should I use with a hard cast boolit to minimize leading?

[Ricochet]

I think in the neighborhood of 10 grains is about max for good results with plain base.

[louis]

Thanks for the reply. I'll give that a try. I'm using laser-cast and they told me with gas check it'll go up to 1400. Do you have any idea what speed it'll be shooting at 10 grains? I'm crossing my fingers that accuracy won't suffer.

[txbirdman]

louis,
I've had good results with the Lee 200 gr. (with gas check shank removed) in the '06 with 8.0 gr. of Red Dot and 10 gr. of Unique.

[louis]

I can't believe I didn't mention the boolit weight...it's 170 gr. Thanks for the info birdman.

[35remington]

Louis, don't worry about the lighter charge from the accuracy standpoint, as accuracy is usually better at the 9-10 grain level than it is with the 13 grain charges. Only downside is bullet stabilization which could affect things if you go too slow. An educated guess would put the 170 at 12-1300 fps with this 10 grain charge, as a 115 grain gets 15-1600 fps with 10 grains Red Dot.

I've never had a gun yet where 13.0 of Red Dot shot better than a lighter charge of the same powder assuming appropriate bullets.

[Ben]

A lot of people told me I was wasting my time trying to get plain based bullets to shoot well form the 308 or 30/06. I've not found that to be the case.

I'm shooting the Lee 200 gr. RN bullet with 7.8 grs. of B'eye out of my .308 Win. . I removed the g/c shank from a single cav. Lee mold. They are dropping from the mold at .311 and I'm sizing and lubing at .311.

This is a 5 shot group at 50 yards.
By the way, I've got a Lyman 48 rear and a Lyman 17 A on my Springfield 1903, chambered in .308 Win. that I shot this group with.

No scope was used to shoot this group :

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v494/haysb/PICT0002.jpg

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v494/haysb/Springfield%201903%20-%20308%20Win/9005.jpg

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v494/haysb/Springfield%201903%20-%20308%20Win/9006.jpg

[louis]

I put 10 gr and the case looks empty. Makes me a little nervous about shooting this. Gulp. I'll give her a try.

Ben that's some nice shootin without a scope. If my shots touch each other I consider that luck...5 in a row...real impressive.

[louis]

I forgot to mention...my OAL is down from 3.25 to 3.09 using the cast boolit. It seems pretty short but that's where the boolit seating line is. Is this normal for cast boolits (i.e. short)?

[Ricochet]

Yes, many designs have very short noses in front of the crimping groove.

It's not always best to seat to the crimping groove. Often it works best to find the overall length where the bullet touches the origin of the rifling and use that as a starting point. Easiest way to do that is to push a bullet in the breech till it just lodges in the rifling, gently insert a rod from the muzzle till it touches the bullet, and mark the rod at the muzzle with a piece of tape. With the bullet out, run the rod down to the breech face and mark it. Distance between the two marks is the overall length where the bullet starts to seat firmly in the rifling. I use that length with good results in a lot of loads, but some shoot well with long "freebore" jumps to the rifling. Seating to the rifling won't allow enough bullet seated in the case to hold it well in some cases, and in some it won't allow the cartridge to function through the magazine.

[louis]

Thanks for the info...real good stuff here!!!!

[Larry Gibson]

Thanks for the reply. I'll give that a try. I'm using laser-cast and they told me with gas check it'll go up to 1400. Do you have any idea what speed it'll be shooting at 10 grains? I'm crossing my fingers that accuracy won't suffer.

Louis

Is the bullet you're using made for a GC or is it a PB? With PB bullets I get very good accuracy also with 6.5 -7 gr of Bullseye. If it is a GC bullet without the GC then I've never got what I consider good accuracy if they are pushed over 1050 fps. Around 5.5 gr of Bullseye will do that.

Larry Gibson

[Bret4207]

Ben- I prefer my boolit holes to be spread out quite a bit more than in your target. Makes scoring easier!

[shawn45]

I have been using 10gr WC820 in my sons 308 with 120 gr PB Lee. I get zero leading and it shoots great. I have also used 13 and 15 gr with the same bullet and no leading but Sam just prefers to shoot the lighter load. We have shot a pig or 3 with the 15 gr load and the neck shots dropped them on the spot. That doesn't really mean anything about how powerful a load it is cuz I think we could neck shoot the pigs with a 22 mag and get the same results.

[louis]

Louis

Is the bullet you're using made for a GC or is it a PB? With PB bullets I get very good accuracy also with 6.5 -7 gr of Bullseye. If it is a GC bullet without the GC then I've never got what I consider good accuracy if they are pushed over 1050 fps. Around 5.5 gr of Bullseye will do that.

Larry Gibson

i called the manufacturer and they said to use GC for an '06 but i know they're thinking about regular loads not what you krazy folks do here! it has the base groove for GC but does not come with it. they told me it's optional depending on usage.

i'm referring to this: http://www.laser-cast.com/30Cal.html

[Ben]

Bret4207 :

According to those criteria, more often than not mine are REAL EASY TO SCORE.

Like my buddy said at the range yesterday...He'd shot 4 pretty tight in a group and was about to fire his 5th rd.

He said..." If there is a way to " Blow " this group, I'll most likely find it.".

Best,

Ben

[DonH]

I have a copy of an article by Ed Harris which I printed off the old shooters.com site. In this article Ed says for .30-06, .303, 7.62x54, etc. he used 6-7 gr of almost any fast-burning pistol powder. The article covered the gamut from 125 gr gallery loads to 180-200 gr deer/6oo yd target loads. Some of you oldtimers may have the article and the ability to get it on this thread. If not I can try it.
I don't believe Ed ever recommended the 13 gr Red Dot load with plain base bullets.

[garandsrus]

Here's the article that Don referenced... It's in the "Classics and Stickies" section of the site :)

Ed Harris Reduced Loads (http://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?t=17574)

John

[Thumbcocker]

311291 over 7.0 of 700x or red dot. Great in .30-40 Krag too.

[louis]

Just out of curiosity, if one were to fire a jacketed bullet with full "standard" charge what would that equate to using Red Dot? With H414 I load 56gr for 150gr FMJ bullet.

[Ben]

louis:

Since Red Dot's burn rate isn't intended as a propellant suitable for " a full standard charge " in a 30/06 with a 150 gr. jacketed bullet, it would seem that your question is a bit confusing to me ? ? You seem to be asking something related to the powder's performance that it was never intended to do by the manufacturer.

Red Dot will generate good speeds ( moderate cast bullet speeds ) at minimal charge weights in the 30 / 06 , but if one had as a goal reaching " a standard full charge " in a 30 / 06 and reaching speeds in the 2,700 fps zone with 150 gr. FMJ bullets , I'd think that Red Dot ( having a burn rate very similar to Bullseye ) would be about the poorest choice in propellants they could come up with. You'd end up peaking out with extremely high pressures way before you got anywhere close to the muzzle velocity that your reaching with your load of H - 414.

Ben

[Ben]

Red Dot often offers very good accuracy at around 13.5 grs. in the 30 /06 with a variety of cast bullet weights , but the speeds won't be anywhere close to the " G I Ball Load."

[madcaster]

Ben,
Now you know that's a cheating to use a superior gun,such as a 1903 to impress young minds in the .30 caliber size!
It's just not fair,people are really competing to buy up all these fine Springfields!Pretty soon there won't be any 03's for sale!:kidding:

[Ben]

Jeff:

You're right, better grab them while you can...........

Ben

[encoreman]

Not trying to steal thread, but what loads do ya'll recommend for deer hunting with a non gaschecked cast bullet 150-200 grain? Thanks for all comments. Mac

[Ben]

Problem is going to be getting the " non gas checked bullet " going fast enough to be accurate and deliver enough energy at deer hunting ranges to be suitable.

Now a gas checked bullet is another total story. Getting a good load at 1,900 fps or so with an 06' is very possible.

Shooting deer with a 200 gr. bullet at 1350 fps. can certainly be done with a plain based bullet, but your going to be dealing with a " rainbow " trajectory as you move beyond 75 and 125 yards, and you're going to be giving up kinetic energy on the target also.

[louis]

Ben, thanks for the info. I had a feeling the powder was wrong to use for that purpose.

To follow up, I tried 8-10 gr. and my bullets are flying all directions. As Larry commented, shooting a bullet with gc groove without a gc doesn't shoot to well. I'm getting like a 16" splatter. I switched to FMJ 165 gr. and bumped it up to 13 gr. and it now shoots 2"-3" groups. It's been fun.

[Boerrancher]

Louis,

There would not be a charge of red dot that would equal your 56gr load of H414. It is difficult to explain how pressure curves with smokeless powders work with out a lot of math and graphs of pressure curves.

H414 is a very slow burning powder compared to red dot. The reason for fast burning powders with cast boolits is to keep the powder from burning any place else but the case. Few people think about it but with most of your rifle powders they are still burning all of the way up the barrel. This is fine with a jacketed bullet, but the heat from the burning gases can be detrimental to a cast boolit even with a gas check.

Here is a good way to think about the pistol/shotgun powders compared to the rifle powders. The faster burning pistol powders are like someone walking up and punching you in the arm. There is lots of energy delivered to the spot where they punched you, but the chances of them making you move several steps do the the blow are slim to none.

Now think about that same person walking up to you and putting their hand on your arm/shoulder and giving you a shove. Chances are you are going to take a few steps to get your balance. Your arm doesn't hurt where they shoved you, but it took more energy to make you move than what was delivered on the punch to the arm. Fast burning powders are the punch to the arm. They dump all of their energy all at once, hence the pressure curve is almost like a spike, where as slow burning powders build up pressure over a longer time, hence a more uniform upward slope to the pressure curve over time. The time of course is in miliseconds with all powders, but it is always expressed in pressure over time.

One other thing to consider is that as the projectile travels down the barrel the amount of space that must be filled with pressurized gas gets larger. That is one of the reasons that typically the larger the bore dia, the faster burning the powder must be. Once a 45-70 projectile moves 3 in down the barrel, it has already created more empty space to be filled than a 30-06 has in the entire length of the barrel.

If anyone can explain all of this better than I did please feel free to do so. I just didn't feel like going back to physics and calculus class this morning while I drink my morning coffee and prepare to spend a day digging post holes.

Best Wishes,

CPT T.

[ubetcha]

If you want to converse with Ed and others on this,try going to
www.castbulletassoc.org.He is a regular there and is always willing to help anyone with a question,especally if it's something he has worked on.You have a good post going and something I will consider trying

[louis]

Hey Boerrancher,


Thanks for the reply. I do understand what you're saying and you have a good analogy.

It takes me back to my high school physics class. The fundamentals are similar to a car crash. That tiny layer of padding on your dashboard spreads out the energy of your head smashing on the dashboard in a sever car accident by few milliseconds but that "absorption" makes a huge difference between a cracked head and a bad bruise.

Inversely, the energy released over time between a fast burning charge vs. a slow burning charge should dramatically affect the way the projectile is accelerated. It's almost the opposite of what a cast boolit would need to achieve maximum speed. Since a cast boolit is soft by comparison to a jacketed bullet if you accelerate the projectile slowly (with a slow burning powder) you should be able to archive much faster speed without distorting the soft lead. It's like throwing a water balloon slowly vs. quickly and having it burst.

Sounds like the heat generated from a slower burning powder is the limiting factor in the whole equation.

BTW, someone offered me in private some gc boolits from this board and I want to thank him for that. I wasn't expecting that...nice folks on this site.

[GrizzLeeBear]

Ben, thanks for the info. I had a feeling the powder was wrong to use for that purpose.

To follow up, I tried 8-10 gr. and my bullets are flying all directions. As Larry commented, shooting a bullet with gc groove without a gc doesn't shoot to well. I'm getting like a 16" splatter. I switched to FMJ 165 gr. and bumped it up to 13 gr. and it now shoots 2"-3" groups. It's been fun.

Louis, be VERY careful about loading jacketed bullets with pistol/shotgun powders like Bullseye, Red Dot, etc. Jacketed bullets give much more resistance in the barrel. The problem with the fast powders with them is that there is a very narrow range between a squib (bullet stuck in bore) and dangerous pressures that can damage you and the gun due to the higher resistance. With jacketed bullets, I would stay with medium powders in the 4895 burn rate range.
Cast boolits have much less resistance. Thats why they are able to be shot much slower than jacketed without the risk of squib loads. You will see guys refer to these real low velocity loads as "squib" loads, but I think that is an incorrect use of the term. IMHO, a "squib" is a bullet that does not make it out of the barrel. This property of less resistance is also why you will generally see higher velocity with cast boolits when compared to a jacketed bullet of the same weight with the same powder charge.

Oh, BTW welcome aboard!

[louis]

Oh fudge. I just made another 50 rounds with 13.5 gr of Red Dot. You think I should pull them??? Last time I shot 10 rounds (13.5 gr Red Dot and 165 gr Hornady bullet) with no problem but if I'm on thin ice I'd like to know.

[DonH]

Cast boolits have much less resistance. Thats why they are able to be shot much slower than jacketed without the risk of squib loads.

!

Not to be nitpicking but I think this is somewhat backwards as pertaining to fast pistol/shotgun powders. I believe the reason for the low velocities is that with the very fast powders, relatively low velocity is all that can be achieved before chamber pressures get too high.

Respectfully

DH

[Boerrancher]

Louis,


I don't know why I didn't think of it earlier but have you tried shooting your cast boolits using card stock as a gas check? I still use this technique every time I load cast boolits. There are several methods that work, and there is also a Thread on it. Here it is: http://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?p=323462#post323462 I hope this helps. Sorry for being brain dead yesterday. I just don't remember things like I use to.

[Ricochet]

I believe the reason for the low velocities is that with the very fast powders, relatively low velocity is all that can be achieved before chamber pressures get too high.
Yes, but if you work with very low velocity loads you will eventually get a bullet stuck in the bore. The high initial pressure from the small charge of fast burning powder falls very rapidly as the bullet moves down the bore, the included volume expands, and the gas expands and cools. Jacketed bullets will stick before cast ones will. It's a valid caution.

[GrizzLeeBear]

Don, you are correct as far as the powder is concerned. As Ricochet pointed out, my point was that the cast boolits allow you to use those powders to get low velocity. To keep jacketed bullets from sticking, you usually have to shoot them several hundred fps faster, especially in rifles with their longer tubes.

[garandsrus]

Oh fudge. I just made another 50 rounds with 13.5 gr of Red Dot. You think I should pull them??? Last time I shot 10 rounds (13.5 gr Red Dot and 165 gr Hornady bullet) with no problem but if I'm on thin ice I'd like to know.

Louis,

I don't think you are on thin ice... You should be well over the velocity that might allow a jacketed bullet to stick in the bore. You are probably around 1300fps. If you have a chronograph you could check for sure. This is from part of Ed Harri's "The Load" document:

The velocities obtained with 13 grs. of Red Dot appear mild, but "The Load" is no pipsqueak! In a case like the .308 or .30-06, you get (from a 24" sporter barrel) about 1450 fps with a 200gr. cast bullet, 1500 with a 170gr, or 1600 with a 150gr cast load. "The Load" is fully comparable to "yesterday's deer rifle", the .32-40, and provides good expansion of cheap, soft alloys (10-13 BHN) at woods ranges. Jacketed bullet velocities with "The Load" are about 120-150fps less than a lubricated lead bullet of the same weight.

John

[DonH]

Yes, but if you work with very low velocity loads you will eventually get a bullet stuck in the bore. The high initial pressure from the small charge of fast burning powder falls very rapidly as the bullet moves down the bore, the included volume expands, and the gas expands and cools. Jacketed bullets will stick before cast ones will. It's a valid caution.

I agree that it is a valid caution re: jacketed bullets. My comments were concerning this statement:

"Cast boolits have much less resistance. Thats why they are able to be shot much slower than jacketed without the risk of squib loads."

My intent was to make the point that velocity is not slower with cast bullets and fast powder because one is able to make it so but rather because (relatively) low velocity is ALL one can get with fast powders before pressures get too high. In other words, you can get in trouble FAST! I believe this to be a valid point for the not-so-experienced handloaders to understand concerning the very fast pistol powders. My comment was intended to be more of an addendum than a challenge to the gentleman's statement. Personally, I doubt I would use a powder much faster than 4759 for low velocity jacketed bullet rifle loads.

Cheers

[louis]

Thanks for the info John. I'm going to take up ubetcha's suggestion and post on CBA about the pressure problem. I hope Ed is still around...his original post is quite old.

[405]

louis,
I've read thru this thread and can't find a reason why you don't want to use a GC on a bullet designed for a GC. Can you add a GC to the Laser Cast bullets you already have?

My experience with plain base, unprotected bullets is that sometimes with just the right alloy/BHN with just the right powder and charge and gun and throat and load specs you can get good accuracy, even exceptional accuracy.... as Ben's "waste o paper" targets clearly show :mrgreen: However, for the most part putting a GC on, especially for a bullet designed for one, really helps minimize the many and varied problems faced by cast bullet shooters. This seems especially true in loading cast over smokeless in large capacity, shouldered cases like the '06.

[Ben]

Ditto ........405's comments. Couldn't have said it better myself.

Ben

[louis]

louis,
I've read thru this thread and can't find a reason why you don't want to use a GC on a bullet designed for a GC. Can you add a GC to the Laser Cast bullets you already have?

My experience with plain base, unprotected bullets is that sometimes with just the right alloy/BHN with just the right powder and charge and gun and throat and load specs you can get good accuracy, even exceptional accuracy.... as Ben's "waste o paper" targets clearly show :mrgreen: However, for the most part putting a GC on, especially for a bullet designed for one, really helps minimize the many and varied problems faced by cast bullet shooters. This seems especially true in loading cast over smokeless in large capacity, shouldered cases like the '06.

Hey 405,


I guess I just don't want to deal with the GC. I'll have to buy yet another die and doohickeys and I'm trying to get out of that cycle. I should have bought them with it installed but I didn't know what a GC was at that time. :roll: Just got too excited about using cast bullets.

I am, however, looking at leadhead.com. They have it with GC and I'm thinking about trying it out but not sure about having another 500 lying around if it doesn't work too well.

As I mentioned, someone privately offered me some cast boolits with GC. I'm planning to test that out first and take it from there.

[405]

louis,
I'm always suspicious when reloaders use the word "plinkers" when talking about a particular load or bullet- you'll see it a lot. That may be what you have with the bullets w/o the gas checks, no matter the powder, charge, seating depth, primer, neck tension, etc., etc.

If someone is going to let you try a few GC bullets that's a very good idea. You should slug your bore to see what the those measurements are then see if you can get bullets that are somewhere between right at groove diameter to about .002" over groove diameter. And yes, slugging the bore costs near nothing and is easy and quick to do.

Also, I know where you're coming from in attempting to not dump more money into "trying" cast bullets. I can also see why you would pick the "Laser Cast" over their "True Shot" line with the gas checks- they ain't cheap. If you are only out a box of Laser Cast at the end of all this- consider yourself getting off cheap. However, there IS a lot involved in getting cast to shoot accurately. Adding gas checks may not even be the answer but the GC is often just a part of the cast bullet accuracy puzzle. I'd guess Ben's targets didn't come easily, quickly or cheaply.
Good luck!

[louis]

I'm taking a total guess here, but I think without GC on a GC bullet the pressure is unevenly escaping through the GC grooves. That may be what set's it off at the last slip second when it exits the muzzle and have it fly in all directions.

Also, "slugging" is something I recently found out from the private email that I received. I know I bought my laser cast .001 over sized but from what I read I should have tried .002 over. This experiment is definitely not over. Once my wife finds out how much I've spent on reloading she'll go in PMS mode but I've learned that if you keep at it they eventually give up :bigsmyl2:...of course they show up home with a new car then your future boat purchase just disappears...like my un-GC bullets :killingpc

To be continued...

[405]

louis,
Most of us have been there. Just try for harmony and a balance :mrgreen:

As far as 001" over.... that's as good a place to start as any. Usually even if the bullet is half way right in diameter, style, weight and the powder and charge and pressure are half way right you will immediately see some accuracy potential when shooting- even if it's a 2-3 circular cluster at 50 yds. If you see things like what you are experiencing then something is really WAY out of kilter! It is very possible or even likely the "boat tail" base of the un gas-checked bullet is the primary culprit. You might be able to get the bullet (read bullet base integrity) to behave better by going way low on pressure and velocity. But there is a point past which it becomes impractical... 1) the bullet may not stabilize 2) bullet may not have enough poop or good enough trajectory for even practical 100 yard shooting 3) the relatively large capacity and necked-down design (as slight as it may be) of the '06 becomes tricky to down load past a certain point.

I'm assuming your barrel has 1:10 twist? That should be good news for even fairly low velocity cast bullets 150-180 grains, maybe a little heavier. One way to think of cast bullets: they are very delicate compared to most Jbullets. Most cast bullets range from about 10 BHN to about 20-22 BHN... while a Jbullet is about 100 BHN. A gas check is about 100 BHN. Also, the '06 has a fairly long neck and I've found long necks have some advantages for loading cast.

Finally, one other thing- when working on cast loads make sure the bore is completely clean of all fouling including copper, carbon fouling and lead fouling. May have to really clean between shooting sessions, load testing sessions. Again, good luck and keep the domestic balance

[garandsrus]

Louis,

For about $15 you can get a Lee push through size die that will seat gas checks on the boolits you already bought. You will of course need some gas checks also. It may be money well spent depending on how many Laser Cast boolits you still have. You can gas check 400 boolits in an hour or so. It really doesn't take very long.

Please post the difference in group size you see with the GC vs. plain base. I think that 13gr Red Dot would be a good load to start with for the GC boolits. For a more substantial loading, I use 28gr IMR-4895 with no filler for several different boolit styles in an 06 and similar cases.

If you want to see what YOUR boolits would do with a GC, mail me 20 or so and I will put a check on for you and mail them back.

John

[louis]

Here's what I was able to manage with garandsrus' sample cast boolits. He sent quite a few of different style and weight. I really appreciate his taking interest in my shooting effort.

All shots were made from 100 yards using Red Dot 13.5gr.

The 308321 shoot as well as the Remington Core Lokt jacketed bullets. There was one flier to the left but I would attribute that to my 7.5 lb trigger pull. I really need to get a trigger job.

The 311291 with the rounded head "tore" through the paper. The blunt head design didn't make nice clean hole and I would think this would have more knock down power and less penetration. It did spread out a little more than the others but at 100 yards it's still under a head sized grouping. These were much better than the un-GC bullets that I was using before. You can't compare the two. And as 405 brought up there was quite a bit of leading in the barrel. Thank you all for sharing your expertise!

[louis]

Forgot to mention...I didn't get a chance to load the flat point or the soup can boolits. I'll give them a try this weekend. He sent LOTS of samples.

[35remington]

I have extensive experience with the Soup Can, the '06, and Red Dot. I predict you will find much better accuracy at the 9 and 10 grain level for 15-1600 fps than any heavier charge weight. Most of the shotgun/pistol powders, like Bullseye, W231, Unique et. al perform better at this charge level. Groups definitely open before 13 grains and the velocity of that load would be, as I recall, near 1900 fps.

Maybe too much kick from the heavier charge. Whatever. Point is, accuracy is better at the lower charge weight while velocity duplicates a 32-20 moderately heavy load and that makes this load with a hard cast bullet suitable for everything from rabbits and squirrels to coyotes. Good load. If cast of softer wheelweights the bullets expand some on closer ~ 50 yard shots and bugger up small game depending upon how much bone they hit. Better if the bullet is somewhat harder. I've shot a lot of small game with this bullet at that velocity.

Seat the bullet out a bit if your throat allows it. Yep, with the gascheck.

Soup can's real popular around here.

[garandsrus]

Louis,

When you said that "And as 405 brought up there was quite a bit of leading in the barrel.", was this from the plain base boolits? Did you get it cleaned out before shooting the gas checked ones?

It's good to see that you are having some success! If you still have some, try the 311291's, back the charge down to 13.0 gr and give them another try. You should get a much better group with them. Many people think that it's one of the most accurate .30 cal bullet designs. The 311041, which you have but haven't tried yet, is considered the other classic design.

The 308329 shows a lot of promise even though it's not "supposed" to, being a cast spitzer. It shoots very well for me also.

16.0gr of 2400 works very well also.

John

[georgewxxx]

Who made a 308321? It's not on my Ideal/Lyman list...geo

[garandsrus]

George,

The mold number is 308329 and it was made by "Lyman IDEAL"...

Here's a picture:
http://i106.photobucket.com/albums/m245/johntlarson/308329.jpg

John

[georgewxxx]

OK, I wondered if that is what you were talking about I've an Ideal also, but haven had a chance to try it yet. Now I see you changed the number now from your original post. Suppose Louis made the same error when he wrote it on his target. I'm always ready to try a recommend boolit/load and make note of them for future use. ..Geo

[kjg]

hey georgewxxx, were oh were did you find those really cool containers for your bolitos?

that mould that garandsrus is very similar to my ideal 311415 it drops out depending on alloy used 162- 172 gains I love my mould just recently loaded and shot the buulets cast out of wheel weights and powdered by imr 4895 out of a chinosks, the same bulet was shot unsized out of a mosin, an fn 30-06,,and it is fun.kjg