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Marlin Junky
04-03-2008, 08:52 PM
Today the M77 .350 put 12 rounds of SAECO 352 (HT'd COWW metal) into 1.625" with 50 grains of SplBall-3 (H-380 clone) at 75 yards; and, 10 rounds of SAECO 356 (same alloy) into 1" at the same distance with 26 grains of WC-820. The SplBall-3 loads averaged 2136 fps while the WC-820 loads averaged 1891 fps. I might add that the M-77 .350 with it's blued steel 12" twist barrel out-shot the heck out of my .358 Hawkeye (stainless bbl w/ a 12" twist) using the same SAECO #352 boolit (same alloy, HT, etc.) at approx. the same velocity with only 2 more grains of SplBall-3 (both M77's have 22" long barrels). It would have been very interesting to have been able to collect pressure data from both the .358 Hawkeye and the .350 Mark II.

Then it looks like I may have messed up the .350's barrel conditions with 15 rounds of SAECO 356 at 2200+ fps because the next 3-shot group of #352 (same load) spanned 2.5". I shot the same lube all day (pretty mild ambient) yet it looks like my lube may have let me down. At the end of the shooting session I wiped the barrel with a patch that had a little JPW on it and there was definitely some metal fouling at the muzzle. I'll need to test the 50/SplBall-3 load again with a couple different lubes but any lube input would be helpful. Would hardening up the lube shot today with a little Carnauba help or make matters worse? Or, would a softer lube with more oil work better?

One other point: I found lube on the targets shot with the 2100 fps SAECO 352 loads and the 1900 fps SAECO 356 loads so it looks like the boolits are carrying enough lube for these velocities. The targets shot with the 2200+ fps SAECO 356 loads were virtually lube free though. I suspect the bore might be a little rough near the muzzle for extended shooting at these velocities... at least with my lube which is approx. a pound of yellow beeswax with a few TBS of Vaseline and a dash of Carnauba and Jojoba and a pinch of pure powdered Sodium Stearate. I guess another theory would be that the steeper rifling (12" twist vs. 16" twist) is creating too much torque at these velocities and some gas is getting past the checks... I'm only guessing at this point. The most frustrating aspect of all this, is that after all the work put into trying to develop cast bullet loads for these modern .35 caliber rifles, my ultra hard boolits will probably punch clean little holes in large varmints, predators and deer unless shoulder bones are hit.

Thanks for any input,
MJ

P.S. COWW = clip-on WW metal; HT'd = heat treated (usually at 450F for one hour+ unless otherwise noted)

35remington
04-04-2008, 02:05 PM
MJ, any attempts with ACWW's yet?

Looks encouraging so far.

Marlin Junky
04-04-2008, 03:34 PM
35R,

Next Thursday I'm going to retest the 50 grain H380 load with air cooled BHN 18 metal.

I'm also going to retest the 26 grain WC-820/SAECO 356 (HT'd at 450F again) load and shoot a 27 grain charge along side of it to see if the group opens up at near 2000 fps. The first group with SAECO 356/WC-820 was pretty darn good but the stats over the chronograph weren't all that great so there might be room for improvement.

The M77 .350 seems a lot more willing to please than the .358 Hawkeye but I doubt the steep rifling pitch will accommodate softer alloys like the old Ballard rifled 336's in .35 Remington which will send 250 grain SAECO 352's cast of ACWW down range at over 2000 fps (at least from the 24" A model) and put them into nice 5-shot groups.

MJ

35remington
04-04-2008, 06:17 PM
Well, nothing like giving it the old college try. If a fellow could get ACWW's at near 2000 you'd have the perfect deer load. Can't help but wonder if a little dacron (if there is room) would help seal the rifling gap from fast twist gasses and possibly reduce demands on the lube. I've recovered enough gas cut gaschecked bullets that I believe dacron can have benefits here, too.

Optimist that I am, I've persevered and succeeded in 12 inch twists at such velocity with ACWW's - I can also do very respectably well at ~2000 fps with my 1-10 .25-20 OTT Contender barrel, so there's hope for your .350.

Marlin Junky
04-05-2008, 04:41 PM
.35remington,

I suppose there is hope for my .350 but I've pretty much decided to have one of my old 336's in 30-30 bored out to .35 caliber with a 16 or 18" twist. Problem is: there's enough variations on the .35-30 to confuse me and I want to be able to shoot ACWW metal up to about 220 grains at 2300-2400 fps, which may be a job for the .444 necked to .35 which I really don't want to mess with. The 38-55 necked to .35 would be much easier.

It may seem like I'm trying to invent the .35 Remington, but I'm looking for a chambering that doesn't headspace on the shoulder and has enough throat to accommodate .357mag/max pistol bullets with their forward driving bands.

MJ

35remington
04-05-2008, 06:54 PM
I'd have to agree that a 35-30 isn't suitable for a 220 at 23-2400 fps - you need more case capacity than that. But it's a good round otherwise, and a 220 at 2000-2100 would be nothing to sneeze at and would be more compatible with reasonable pressures and the 35-30 case capacity. You could go even heavier with maybe a 250 at 1900, which would be an excellent woods load with ACWW's.

softpoint
04-05-2008, 08:50 PM
I have 2 .358 win. rifles with 1/12 twist shilen ss barrels they will both stand about 2200fs. with either the 200gr. Lyman or the 245gr. Saeco. They shoot well up to that speed, and then accuracy suffers badly. So far the only lube I've used on these has been RCBS rifle lube. I have a .350 rem. 700 classic I want to try both of those bullets in, but just haven't had the time. I needto quit my job so Ican do more shooting!:-D

Marlin Junky
04-05-2008, 11:10 PM
You could go even heavier with maybe a 250 at 1900, which would be an excellent woods load with ACWW's.

.35remington,

If I want to shoot a .35 cal boolit heavier than about 220 grains, I will put it in a big case and shoot it from a 14 or 16" twist barrel with .004" deep grooves. For lighter boolits I want an 18" twist and the ability to send the various 180 to 200 grain boolits usually shot from the .357 SuperMag, into the 2400 fps zone. Those bullets would include, the 180 and 200 grain SAECO's, and the RCBS 35-180-SIL and 35-200-FN... maybe even the Lyman 358156 in HP'd form.

MJ

felix
04-05-2008, 11:20 PM
MJ, you are in the 35 remmie territory with those 200 grainers. The standard 3030 case, without expansion won't cut the mustard. But, if you want to push 160-180 grainers, you'd be OK with the 30-30 necked up. Just my take on it. Your 18 twist would be plenty good for them. Little or no freebore, just like the 35 standard remmie. ... felix

35remington
04-06-2008, 11:43 AM
I'll have to agree again, with Felix. The proposed velocities you seek with the 18 twist is upper end 35 Remington territory, not .35-30, which seems better with the heavier bullets of 200 and over as long as super velocity is not needed. I wasn't aware of your bullet weight/velocity desires with the heavier .35 bullets. I just do know I have a friend with a .35-30 and he swears it is one of the best cast bullet cartridges going.

To each his own.

Marlin Junky
04-06-2008, 04:09 PM
Felix and .35R,

I agree but I don't have an action to screw an 18" twist .35 Remington barrel onto. I do have an old 336 in 30-30 that has an unusually long throat that I have been wanting to bore out for a while though.

The .350 Maine Guide made from 2.125" 38-55 cases may be too long for RCBS 35-200-FN in the 336 but I think it has a shorter brother that's made from .32 Spl cases (or slightly shortened 2.08" 38-55's). The slightly shorter version holds about a half grain less water than the .35 Remington and I think it has the same length neck. I would think that if the .35 Remington in a 336 can do 2300+ fps with 35-200-FN through an 18" twist, (accurately) the .350 Maine "Short" (I don't know the offical moniker) would be able to do that with the same bullet if hollow-pointed.

MJ

35remington
04-06-2008, 04:50 PM
Don't all the Marlin 30-30's have a 1-12 twist? Maybe going the wrong way, unless you're shooting the heavies exclusively in a .35 caliber small capacity case.

Keep us up to date on how the 350 is doing. I am curious to see if your results are like ours.

Marlin Junky
04-07-2008, 04:41 AM
35remington,

I don't think Marlin changed the rate of twist on their 30-30's from 1 turn in 10" to 1 turn in 12" until recently... just about the same time Hornady introduced their LEVERevolution (stupid name) ammo. Why did you bring that up though? When my 336 in 30-30 is bored out it will be a 3 groove .35 with my choice of twist... which will probably be 1 turn in 18" and I'll request the groove diameter to be the same as the .357SM... or .357" (.349" to .350" across the lands).

The .350 will get another workout this Thursday which will include SAECO 356 cast of COWW HT'd at 450F (just like last week) lauched by 26 and 27 grains of WC-820 and also SAECO 352 at BHN 18 (air cooled) launched by 50 grains of SplBall-3 (H380). I'm also going to harden up my lube a tiny bit with the addition of a little more yellow beeswax and the SAECO 352's will weigh about 7 grains less in the BHN 18 alloy opposed to the HT'd COWW metal of last week.

MJ

P.S. Attached below is the target from last week shot with SAECO 356 and 26 grains WC-820. I was surprised the results were this good because the noses were undersized with respect to the bore diameter. The range was 75 yards and there are 10 rounds in this group. The aiming spot (the orange dot) is 3/4" in diameter. The velocity averaged 1891 fps with a standard deviation of 17.4 fps so there is room for improvement. I'm hoping 27 grains of WC-820 will get me into single digit std devs and groups like this at 100+ yards.

35remington
04-07-2008, 08:48 PM
"Why did you bring that up though?"

I don't know - brain cramp. That's what happens when you type before you run the thought around your head for a bit. I translated that to getting a 1-12 twist reboring, and I dunno how. You weren't going to do that. Too much beer?

Anyway, I can relate to the undersize bullet. I finally got my Lee six banger in the 35 220 group buy going, which is the RCBS 205 FN with a longer nose and squarer lube groove with a beveled crimp groove. The intent was to get something in .350+ nose diameter and .360" on the bands. What I wound up with was a ~.348" nose and .3585-3595" on the bands cast of ACWW's plus a little tin. I hope this shoots in a Microgroove barrel as they like fat noses on their bullets and this one is going backward a bit.

I beagled a few hundred in case my .35 Microgroove Marlins puke with the unmodified version. Here's hoping the nose of the bullet is supported sufficiently that it doesn't sag to one side and get unbalanced. After beagling I got .363" on the bands and a .352" nose. My RCBS runs .3585-.3595" with a .352" nose and my .35 Microgroove Marlins just love it.

I've got to age up the ACWW's a bit and try them over 33-35 of IMR 3031 and see if I can get a woods load for deer at 2050 fps or so. It's worked with the RCBS original but we'll see about the undersize nose and any harm it might cause.

We'll also try these through Dave's .350. I gotta get me one of those. Nice handy rifle for the power they put out.

Marlin Junky
04-07-2008, 10:09 PM
35R,

I poured a few from the .360-220 GB last night for the first time but it wasn't a joyous occasion. I think I got a few good ones though from my BHN 18 metal at 700F. It seems like a real fussy mold... easy to overheat with a Rowell#2 and also cools very quickly. I found pouring the metal in slowly produced the best results but not all the cavities produced good fill-out near the bases with this technique. I'll have to see if I can vent the mold a little better around the bases. Did you have any problems getting it to work properly? Looks like it cast at .360/.351" or there-a-bouts though... I'll mike some of the good ones that weigh in at 212 to 213 (in the BHN 18 metal) tonight. In all reality, I doubt one will be able to drive .360-220 very hard from a 12" twist because of its lack of bearing surface but we'll see. I'm also planning to shoot a few from the .350 but not until next week.

Do you shoot SAECO 352 from your .35 Marlin?

MJ

35remington
04-08-2008, 06:46 PM
No, I don't. I shoot several other designs and quite a few pistol bullet designs.

I don't know that the GB 220 will hold up under high velocity either, but I gotta try it anyway. Intent for me in buying the GB mould was faster production with a hopefully similar bullet that shot well.

I beagled the mould with the supplied aluminum tape; two on each end and two strips in the middle for six contact points. I wound up with a .3585-.363" variation on the bullet from the oval.

Strangely proving that moulds are individuals, I didn't have much trouble with mine. I smoked it a little and set to casting WW's plus a little tin and had good base fillout with only a few instances of rounded bands early on. It's handy to pour the sprue as one continuous piece and then cut it and drop it back into the pot with a gloved hand. So far, so good. I ran my melt a bit on the hot side.

I don't think my Marlins will like the undersized nose, like I said. I've got a .357 Maximum and a .357 Herrett (Dave's) that will also give this bullet a try, along with the .35 Remingtons and .350.

Marlin Junky
04-09-2008, 02:54 AM
So far, so good. I ran my melt a bit on the hot side.


35r,

What do you mean by "...on the hot side"? I was at 700F and frosting the heck out of my bullet bases; however, my Rowell#2 delivers a lot of metal to the molds quickly.

Here are a couple targets from today's range session. I shot the same load in post #1 (with the bullets seated .005" deeper for easier chambering) along with a 28 grain load and couldn't duplicate the results from last week which was probably due to fouling up the barrel with some BHN 18 SAECO 352's before shooting the 356's at the targets below. I did clean the barrel after shooting the BHN 18 metal but I'm going to assume the barrel conditions weren't ideal (as they were last week). Anyway, that's my story and I'm sticking to it, at least for now. [smilie=1:

These .35 caliber Ruger barrels with their 12" twists seem to prefer very hard bullets (such as HT's COWW) at under 2000 fps. I am entertaining the though of running a Tubb's Final Finish kit through this barrel and trying the SAECO 352 at 2100+ fps again. Naturally, the bullets will be HT's COWW metal. I may even try to HT at 460F next time. These 12" twist barrels (I'm referring to my .358 Hawkeye too) may hold their accuracy longer between cleanings but I think they'd benefit from being smoothed up if the goal was to exceed 1900 fps. I don't think it's my lube because I'm finding bits of it 75 yards down range on the targets... maybe all I can conclude from that is I'm using enough lube :confused:

The target on the left was shot using the 26 grain load with WC-820 (from post #1) and the target in the middle was shot with the 28 grain load of WC-820 (otherwise the same as the 26 grain load). There's only 9 rounds in each target because I was fiddling with the elevation dial on the Nikon 2x7 while shooting these groups. The velocity today with the 26 grain load was just about the same as last week (1885 fps today vs. 1891 last week) and the 28 grain load clocked 1999 fps today. I attribute the slightly lower velocity today with the 26 grain load to the slightly shorter seating depth (.005" less than last week).

The target on the right was shot at 100 yards (after cleaning) with SAECO 352 at BHN 18. The powder charge was 51 grains of SplBall-3 (H380) and I wasn't getting enough resistance with the 7 grain lighter bullet (BHN 18 vs. HT'd COWW) for a good clean burn. The velocity was 1993 fps with one more grain of powder compared to last week (I'm referencing post #1). Notice the sequence of fire and the vertical deviation... I think the target is trying to tell me that BHN 18 metal is too soft for the rifling pitch of the 12" twist; i.e., too much pressure too quickly even though I'm not getting a complete burn with H380 (I suppose that's plausible :confused:)

MJ

Marlin Junky
04-11-2008, 12:20 AM
Oh yeah, forgot to mention that the .360-220-GB is up next. I need to figure out how to HT them because the alloy I used to cast them has a lot of Sn; i.e., I need to make sure I don't melt them!

I went ahead and ordered a Final Finish kit today which seemed to help the .35 Whelen H-R and is less than 40 bucks delivered to my door.

MJ

Marlin Junky
04-11-2008, 06:55 PM
I have 2 .358 win. rifles with 1/12 twist shilen ss barrels they will both stand about 2200fs. with either the 200gr. Lyman or the 245gr. Saeco. They shoot well up to that speed, and then accuracy suffers badly. So far the only lube I've used on these has been RCBS rifle lube. I have a .350 rem. 700 classic I want to try both of those bullets in, but just haven't had the time. I needto quit my job so Ican do more shooting!:-D

Softpoint,

What are the bore and groove dimensions and number of grooves on your Shilen barrel?

On lube: lube is a big puzzle to me at this point. I never thought much about it until I started pushing the envelop, so to speak. The lube I'm using now in the .350 is pretty hard and brittle at room temp but when it warms up a bit, it feels more like, well... boolit lube. I suspect when it's being shoved down a barrel at 2000 fps it isn't hard and brittle; however, should it still be flinging from lube grooves at 75 yards?... I don't know :confused:

Because I'm getting some leading near the muzzle and a tight cleaning patch seems to hang up near the muzzle I'm going to try to smooth things up with the Final Finish kit.

MJ

35remington
04-11-2008, 07:09 PM
"but I think they'd benefit from being smoothed up if the goal was to exceed 1900 fps."

Y'know, if jacketed hadn't gone up on cost so gawdawful much lately I'd do some load development with jacketed full power loads to do the smoothing - several hundred full power loads worth - and come back to the lead bullets. I'd expect some improvement and get the rifle's preferences with jacketed noted while I was doing it.

Dave did just that, but he had accumulated a lot of .35 jacketed back when the cost wasn't an arm and a leg. His seemed to do fine with ACWW's up to 1950 or so.

Done a chamber/throat cast yet? Anytime I'm contemplating some change I like to see what I've got first as a baseline and possible explanation for initial results.

It doesn't look like a tomato stake so far. Let me know how the group buy 220 does as Dave is wanting to try that next and it looks like you'll get to it before I give him some to try.

Marlin Junky
04-11-2008, 07:40 PM
.35R

Oh heck no, it's no tomato stake but I'm not even going to try ACWW metal at this point after seeing the difference in the shooting results between COWW metal heated at 450F (for an hour+) and BHN 18 metal.

The effect of shooting the 50 rounds included in the Tubb's Final Finish kit is similar to shooting several hundred jacketed bullets.

http://www.davidtubb.com/finalfinish.html

MJ

35remington
04-11-2008, 08:48 PM
This is just me, but I'd try the ACWW's after applying the finishing abrasive in the hope that I would obtain better than before accuracy at good velocities with a softer bullet that would offer useful expansion on deer at all typical ranges.

If I could get decent accuracy at 1950-2000 with ACWW's and even better accuracy at similar or higher velocities with harder bullets I would consider it Project Accomplished.

For whatever reason if I can turn any .35 into a good whitetail rifle with ACWW's I feel content. The hunter side of me coming to the fore, I guess. Based on past results I don't think accuracy will hold for an extended string of shots, but I am able to get 12-15 before fouling becomes a problem and groups open up. That is plenty to last through any deer season.

Since I am lazy sometimes I bypass the whole HT thing and just shoot ACWW's at lower velocities of around 1600 fps on the range, the path of least resistance and time.

Marlin Junky
04-14-2008, 04:54 PM
.35R,

This week is .360-220-GB's turn in the .350.

Boolits were heat treated last Friday at 460F for one hour and quenched in ice water. Charges will be 33, 34, 35, 36 & 37 grains of AA2200 and I will be softening my lube a bit because I don't think it's working as well as it could since I'm finding traces of it 75 yards down range. The barrel will also be scrubbed clean and wiped with Citrus Shield paste wax the night before the range session on Thursday.

I plan to post targets Thursday evening.

MJ

35remington
04-14-2008, 08:49 PM
Remind me - what's your lube?

In about two weeks I'm going to have my own trials with the 220 GB through a couple or three .35 Remingtons, Dave's .350 and either a .357 Max or a .357 Herrett, depending upon what I have time for. The undersize nose has me a bit worried in the Microgroove rifles, which is why I mentioned I beagled a few. I'll be using my lithium/beeswax mix, and I might also drag out the phone books and see what happens to the lube groove if I don't fill it (tumble lube) and shoot ACWW's out of the .35 Remingtons at around 2000 with IMR 3031.

Will try some as cast and also heat treated. For the hell of it the other day I pushed the limits and wound up with 33 BHN, but my usual is BHN 27. Somehow I hope to have a deer load for this bullet by the end of the summer in the Remingtons. The .350 is a goal also as I hope to duplicate the same velocity with at least decent accuracy.

Marlin Junky
04-15-2008, 04:42 AM
35R,

My lube is a combination of yellow beeswax, Vaseline, Jojoba oil, carnauba wax and finely powdered sodium stearate. I just softened it up tonight with the addition of some Vaseline and Jojoba oil and I might have over done it a bit but my loads should all be within 1700 to 2000 fps.

I'm kind of confused about the HT on my BHN 18 metal though. Maybe I haven't given the bullets enough time to harden (HT'd last Friday night) but I couldn't tell any difference in hardness tonight... almost three days after HT'ing.

The .360-220-GB seems to fit the M77 .350 nicely at a COL of 2.81". We'll see how they shoot Thursday morning.

MJ

Marlin Junky
04-18-2008, 03:09 AM
These are the two best targets from today's range session with .360-220-GB and AA2200.

The top target was shot with 36 grains of AA2200 and the bottom with 35 grains. The 35 grain charge launched .360-220 at 215 grains checked (BHN 18 metal) over the chronograph at 1911 fps and the 36 grain charge clocked 1943 fps. The last round in the 10 shot string using 36 grains was the 50th round of the day which started with a clean barrel coated with JPW the night before. The barrel was cleaned after the 50th round in preparation for the next 10 shot string using 37 grains of AA2200 because I could see some fouling where the grooves meet the lands. Unfortunately, the cleaning and applying a new coat of JPW didn't seem to help the 37 grain rounds because its group spanned 3-1/2". The barrel appeared clean after the 10 rounds with 37 grains which averaged 1988 fps (high=2028, low=1956).

The range was 100 yards and the orange aiming spot is 3/4" in diameter. Stat's over the chronograph were not very good and I'll try to pick a powder that provides more consistency. Maybe that will eliminate the flyers. I'm thinking about trying WC-820 at 26 grains. When that charge was used on the 3rd of this month (see post #13) with SAECO #356 the average velocity for 10 rounds was 1879 fps. 27 grains of 4759 may be another possibility.

One observation about .360-220-GB: It carries a whole lotta lube, most of which ended up on my chronograph. I may run a 5/16" drill through the cavities' waists before casting my next batch. The boolits' diameter at the waist are now .285".

'Nuther and more puzzling observation: I heat treated my BHN 18 metal at 460F for one hour and measured the hardness 5 days later to find no significant difference. My BHN 18 metal won't melt in the oven at 475F so I may try to HT at that temp tomorrow night... or I may just shoot as-is. Eventually, I want to try HT's COWW metal with de-tempered noses and maybe after I get the barrel smoothed out I may try to break 2000 fps while maintaining < 2MOA for 10 rounds... something a 16" twist .35 Remington can do! :neutral:

MJ

35remington
04-18-2008, 06:33 PM
Hmm. No heat treat? I suppose it's too late to add any arsenic now. What's the composition of your "BHN 18" alloy?

I was wondering about that lube groove myself; the standard RCBS design hasn't proved underlubricated for me. I also wondered about any bumping up of the bullet due to the deep lube groove when cast of ACWW's and trying for ~2000 in my .35 Remington Microgroove Marlins.

I guess I'll find out soon enough. Just for S&G I'm going to leave some with the groove unfilled, tumble lube them and see what happens to the bullet integrity due to pressure. I'll recover them in some nondeforming medium at 200 yards.

When Dave cranked up the standard RCBS 205 of ACWW's using 4759 to near 2000 in his 350 accuracy went south. At 1650 it was one hole at fifty yards, as in no kidding.

Marlin Junky
04-18-2008, 08:02 PM
Hmm. No heat treat? I suppose it's too late to add any arsenic now. What's the composition of your "BHN 18" alloy?

Clip-on WW metal and a whole lotta of solder. I don't remember how much solder I added because I didn't know what I was doing at the time. I made this batch of alloy years ago when I was casting big .45's with a lil' Lyman dipper at way too low a temperature (back in the days when I thought tin would burn out). Each time I tried to cast I would get defective bullets (I wasn't preheating my molds back then either) so I figured adding tin was the answer. I probably ended up with an alloy that is between 5 and 10% tin until I actually learned how to cast. Since then, this alloy has just been sitting around waiting for an application that requires tin. I really should have added some more WW metal to it, but at the time I cast the .360-220's I wanted to shoot some non-HT'd metal that is just a bit harder than #2 alloy through the .350. The decision to HT was an afterthought because I've been shooting HT'd WW metal through the .350 and finding out just what softening the lube would do to accuracy became a priority last week. Since I've got a few more bullets cast with this stuff and not enough time to cast more before next Thursday, I'll try HT'ing at 475F. Who knows, I might learn something!


I was wondering about that lube groove myself; the standard RCBS design hasn't proved underlubricated for me. I also wondered about any bumping up of the bullet due to the deep lube groove when cast of ACWW's and trying for ~2000 in my .35 Remington Microgroove Marlins.

I almost didn't participate in that GB because of the lube groove depth but I figured with some care and patience, I could bore out the narrow waist with my crummy Sears drill press.


I guess I'll find out soon enough. Just for S&G I'm going to leave some with the groove unfilled, tumble lube them and see what happens to the bullet integrity due to pressure. I'll recover them in some nondeforming medium at 200 yards.

How about at 100 yards also? Don't forget to take quality photos! :)


When Dave cranked up the standard RCBS 205 of ACWW's using 4759 to near 2000 in his 350 accuracy went south. At 1650 it was one hole at fifty yards, as in no kidding.

Do you think lube was the reason for accuracy going south or steep rifling pitch, or maybe barrel smoothness, or too much pressure, or a combination of... ah, skip it! :-? I definitely believe 1 hole accuracy at 50 yards is doable. My 10 shot group at 75 yards on post #13 was done at nearly 1900 fps with SAECO #356 and the nose to bore fit was not even close to being optimum.

Regards,
MJ

35remington
04-18-2008, 08:33 PM
"...and the nose to bore fit was not even close to being optimum."

I hope my guns have a similar disregard for the nose to bore fit, but the beagled bullets await in case they gag on the unmodified dimensions. I'm afraid the bullet will prove to be nose heavy and liable to tilt if unsupported in a microgroove.

"How about at 100 yards also? Don't forget to take quality photos!"

I suppose I could turn this into another project. That would serve to kill my free time, but I'll have more of that after next week.

"Do you think lube was the reason for accuracy going south or steep rifling pitch, or maybe barrel smoothness, or too much pressure, or a combination of... ah, skip it!"

Ha! Like I know just yet.....but I know whatcha mean. My guess is twist, hardness, and pressure. Smoothness wasn't an issue, and we're going to slower powders in the .350 in the hopes that 2000 is achievable in a BHN 12 bullet.

Lemme know how further tests go. Obviously, I'm very interested and I know your work can save me some time.

Marlin Junky
04-18-2008, 10:01 PM
35remington,

I received my Final Finish kit today so next Thursday I'll probably shoot 100 rounds of gasp! copper patched boolits.

If you have any slower single base extruded powders, I'd like to hear about your results with heavier boolits. I've tried Ramshot Hunter with SAECO 352 and it doesn't burn very well with Fed210 ignition. Maybe I'll try it again after the fire-lapping.

MJ

Marlin Junky
04-21-2008, 04:46 AM
Hmm. No heat treat? I suppose it's too late to add any arsenic now. What's the composition of your "BHN 18" alloy?

35rem,

Just a quick update on the HT'ing of my BHN 18 metal:

I was able to raise the BHN to 20+ by heat treating at 475F for one hour. This metal is going back into ingot form tomorrow night. I think I may try casting SAECO 352 with Lino a bit later but first I want to try some HT'd 50/50 in the .350... not sure at this time which boolit to start with.

MJ

Marlin Junky
04-29-2008, 05:20 PM
35remington,

I had to retrieve this thread from page four... I guess we're the only two who care about the .350 :( Oh well.

Here's the game plan for the day after tomorrow:

Five 10 round strings at 75 yards (or maybe 100, I haven't decided yet) with SAECO 352 (COWW & solder alloy, air cooled BHN = 17.5) heat treated at 475F for one hour+ which gets me into the BHN 20+ neighborhood. The powder for all 50 rounds will be DP-74 instead of SplBall (H380) because the latter is too dirty in this pressure range. DP-74 is claimed by Accurate to be 3% slower than AA2520 so I will start with 44 grains and work up to 48 grains, cleaning the barrel after each 10 round string. All 10 rounds in the string will be shot at a single target. I usually shoot 5 round groups and even that heats up the light barrel on the .350 quite a bit, so the 10 round groups this Thursday will be shot sloooowly. In effect, I'll be shooting five 2 round groups at the same aiming point. If one of the loads emerges the winner, I will torture test it the next time out but I will be changing my alloy to 50/50 and the bullets will be HT'd at 450F for one hour followed by an ice water quench.

Targets by the end of the week.

MJ

35remington
04-29-2008, 07:07 PM
What's the anticipated velocity?

Good luck. Here's hoping for accurate shooting.

Marlin Junky
04-29-2008, 07:23 PM
.35remington,

My guess is 1850 on the low end to pushing 2100 on the high end. I wouldn't have tried for over 2000 before adjusting my lube (more Vaseline and Jojoba for a softer, slicker lube) and firing lapping the barrel.

We'll see what happens. If all else fails, in a couple weeks, I'll repeat with HT'd 50/50... which will probably require a drop in charge weight due to more bullet weight. Actually, the H380 may work OK with the 10+ grain heavier bullet!

MJ

P.S. With all the .350's on the market today (search gunbroker.com for "Ruger .350") maybe you can find an older one with the 16" twist. If I hadn't already bought two M77's this year I'd be hunting one down. I think the tell-tale sign of an older one with the slower twist is the tang safety.

Marlin Junky
05-02-2008, 04:01 PM
OK, here's the good bad and the ugly. Next week I will repeat the 47 & 48 grain loads with two exceptions: COL will be .030" less and the bullet diameter will be .0005 to .0010" less. Targets were shot at 100 yards with my Nikon 2x7 set at 7x. Load details in post 32 above.

44 grains DP74:
high=2149
low=1892
ES=257
mean=1967
std dev=73.0

45 grains DP74:
high=2093
low=1972
ES=121
mean=2020
std dev=32.5

46 grains DP74:
high=2134
low=2019
ES=115
mean=2055
std dev=34.8

47 grains DP74:
high=2142
low=2052
ES=90
mean=2089
std dev=31.5

48 grains DP74:
high=2246
low=2091
ES=155
mean=2151
std dev=46.7

Marlin Junky
05-12-2008, 06:56 PM
Today's range results were pretty interesting...

Bullets were sized .358, (.0005" to .0010" smaller than last time) HT'd to about 20-21 BHN (same as last time) and seated on top of 46, 47 and 48 grains of DP-74 at a COL of 2.75" which is about .030" shorter than last time.

46 grains: high=2064; low=1863; ES=201; AVE (15 rounds)=1986; STD.DEV=54.0 which are really bad stats but the 15 round group is much better than the last time 46 grains of DP-74 was used with SAECO 352 cast of the same alloy.

47 grains: high=2153; low=1936; ES=217; AVE=2052(for 14 rounds... I guess I didn't write down all 15); STD.DEV=64.2. Notice what happened to each round that registered over 2100 fps.

48 grains: For obvious reasons I didn't shoot 15 rounds here and this does a good job illustrating why I don't place any credence on 3 shot groups. I learn a whole lot more by shooting at least 10 rounds strings. Here are the five rounds over the chronograph: 2039, 2116, 2134, 2187, 2140. Now I ask myself: why did 2116 & 2134 land so close to 2039 when it appears all the rounds that registered over 2100 fps with 47 grains turned out to be flyers? Granted, I missed recording one round during the 47 grain string but I can safely say that all the rounds outside 1.5 MOA registered over 2100 fps. Well, I can't answer that question but I can say, shooting a little smaller diameter bullet in a round with a little shorter COL produced better results with 46 grains of DP-74 than it did last time. In other words, I think lowering the pressure from last time produced better accuracy in the fast twist .350.

The next trip to the range will include SAECO 352 in a heavier alloy (50/50) with H380 again because DP-74 is not filling the case enough to produce good stats. The problem with H380 may be not enough pressure to get a good burn and this cartridge case coupled with the 12" rate of twist may not be well suited for any double base spherical powder in this burn range. I'm really not looking forward to burning over 50 grains of SplBall (H380) in this light rifle but I guess it's time to strap on the recoil shield and collect some more data. In all reality, one can beat the accuracy of the 12" twist .350 using SAECO 352 at these velocity levels with a 16" twist .35 Remington AND do it with 10+ grains less powder.

MJ

Marlin Junky
05-15-2008, 03:58 AM
There's not going to be an installment tomorrow and I've got a lot to do in order to make it to the range a week from today so here's a preview:

The main thing I'm changing is the bullet alloy but I'm adding a couple extruded powders to the equation. I'll be shooting SAECO 352's cast from 50/50 metal and heat treated for approx. 75 minutes in a 500F convection oven. The bullets register 22 to 23 BHN two days after they hit the ice water. They are sized at (or as close as I can come to) the Ruger's groove diameter sans Hornady gascheck. The GC will be added a few days after the HT'ing and crimped/sized in the same .358" Lyman 450 die so it's hardness will not be affected by the 500F heat treat. The gascheck will probably come out .0005" larger in diameter than the bullet's shank which may be a good thing. I don't think the slightly wider gascheck will have an effect on bullet seating since the .350 has a stronger neck than a 30-30, for example. If (after all that effort!) my seated bullets easily slide into the powder chamber, I'll need to lightly "Lee factory crimp" them in place so the mouths just tuck under the trailing edge of the leading driving band. :shock:

I'll be using the same lube as last time but will add about 70 grains of Carnauba which will bring me to a total of 1/2 oz. Carnauba per pound of beeswax. The other ingredients in my lube are 2-TBS Jojoba Oil and 3.5 oz. (by weight) of Vaseline.

I'm going to shoot five ten round strings with the following powders:

1) DP-74 at 46.0 grains (baseline rounds)
2) Surplus AA2520 (real close to canistered 2520) at 44.6 grains
3) SplBall-3 at 50 grains
4) 3031 at 45.0 grains
5) Surplus 4895 (close to canistered H4895) at 45.5 grains

I've had a dab of Surplus 4895 lying around for years and the last time I burned some, it was very close to H4895. I think this stuff was bought on the surplus market about ten years ago but it has been stored indoors in a plastic container as long as I've had it.

MJ

runfiverun
05-15-2008, 12:15 PM
it takes most of a month for h-t to come to its final hardness...

Marlin Junky
05-15-2008, 03:40 PM
Thanks runfiverun. I've been waiting about a week after HT'ing to shoot 'em. Once some of the variables in the experimenting can be eliminated I'll cast and heat treat a large batch.

I just stepped in for a minute to edit post #37 above.

MJ

runfiverun
05-15-2008, 06:45 PM
the h-t is a variable if you are 2-3 bhn apart on your boolits that will cuase flyers.
kinda acts like you have a grain difference in your powder.
air cooling is closer to aweek to temper.

Marlin Junky
05-15-2008, 06:58 PM
the h-t is a variable if you are 2-3 bhn apart on your boolits that will cuase flyers.
kinda acts like you have a grain difference in your powder.
air cooling is closer to aweek to temper.

Thanks for the info. I hope you don't think I'm mixing batches after heat treating. It's all very methodical. I heat treat on Wednesday evening and shoot the entire batch the following Thursday. Even though the bullets may not have reached their maximum hardness, the entire batch should have the same BHN.

MJ

BABore
05-16-2008, 07:27 AM
Thanks for the info. I hope you don't think I'm mixing batches after heat treating. It's all very methodical. I heat treat on Wednesday evening and shoot the entire batch the following Thursday. Even though the bullets may not have reached their maximum hardness, the entire batch should have the same BHN.

MJ

I have found that this is not always the case. I've had varying results from the same pot of alloy when two seperate batches were OHT'd with identical procedures. One batch seemed to do ok after a week and the next didn't. All boolits were weight sorted and both batches tested at their max Bhn after 7 days. I only test a few boolits from each batch. My only explanation is that they don't harden at the same rate. I still will test week old bullets if I must, but I take good notes on group shape as well as size and especially any uncalled flyers. If I spot any unexplained things happening I will retest with older bullets. It also helps to have an accurate reference load to fall back on. I know your not at that point with this rifle yet.

runfiverun
05-16-2008, 11:14 AM
i donot think you are mixing batches.
i was saying you may be getting a flyer that you didn't shoot.
just cause of a bhn thing.
like B.A. was saying and just wanted to point out that a longer period of time to temper
may be needed for more consistent batch-to-batch consistency on the h-t.

the enemy to h-t and water quench is time on both sides. it may change your loads for you
depending on when you shoot them.

BABore
05-16-2008, 12:16 PM
Another little trick you can use is heat. High ambient temps will speed up the aging process. It take well over 200 F to anneal HT'd boolits. OHT'd boolits, set in a very warm (100-150 F) area will take time off the clock. You can also delay hardening by freezing them if you can't size right away. I've had better consistency by sizing and checking after HT. The quench can sometimes loosen GC's.

felix
05-16-2008, 12:36 PM
Never heat treat with checks applied. The expansion-contraction will distort and/or crack the lead within and around the check, the severity depending on the alloy composition. ... felix

leftiye
05-16-2008, 12:45 PM
So, size, heat treat, then add gas ckeck when lubing?

yondering
05-16-2008, 12:55 PM
Hey, can you guys post some pictures of the 35 cal boolits you're testing? Guess I'm still too much of a newbie to know what the different molds look like.

I've been wanting to cast some for my 35 Whelen, but haven't bought any molds yet so I'm looking for options. Keep up this thread, it's good info!

runfiverun
05-16-2008, 03:15 PM
leftiye.
thats how i would do it make them a/cooled and size.
then heat-treat let sit or after cooling put back in oven at @180-200 for an hour or so
then after about two weeks lube and check.
i am not a fan of w-treat or h-treat.
but it do save money.

Marlin Junky
05-16-2008, 05:41 PM
Thank you, I appreciate the tips!

BABore,

If I leave my boolits outside after heat treating will the variation in temp (day vs. night) have an adverse affect? The day time temps have been near 100F in the sun lately and the temps drop into the 50's at night. I don't really have a way to keep them at a consistent 100F-150F for a solid week.

yondering,

The mold is SAECO 352. If you have a .35 caliber rifle and you are a bullet caster, you need to support this mold. Not having this mold in your collection is like not joining the NRA. ;-) It's not perfect, but the best available from the big three with respect to upper mid-weight .35's.

MJ

Marlin Junky
05-23-2008, 12:11 AM
I'm not going to waste space and time posting targets today because I found out what happens when even a very hard alloy is shot undersized... yep leading, and lots of it! I tried to shoot SAECO 352 at groove diameter to .0005" over groove diameter thinking the initial pressure would be lower and had a flyer-kind-of-a-day mixed with lots of cleaning. I will say though, the 50 grain SplBall load with SAECO 352 cast of 50/50 alloy and heat treated to approx. BHN 22-23 looks like it might be a winner. The first 4 out of 10 rounds at 100 yards went into one ragged hole you can cover with a nickel, then one landed 3/4" high (with respect to the center) and the next one went back into the tiny group (not enlarging it)... and the rest of the day was hell. :(

Stats for the 50 grain SplBall-3 load were:
Number of rounds=10
High=2064
Low=2023
ES=41
Mean=2050
StdDev=11.4

These are the kind of stats I'm used to seeing when shooting SplBall-3 in my 30-30 336A's so the day was not a total loss.

Here are the stats for the two extruded powders:
45 grains 3031...
N=9
High=2122
Low=2067
ES=55
Mean=2085
StdDev=16.0

45.5 grains Surplus 4895...
N=10
High=2049
Low=2000
ES=49
Mean=2030
StdDev=12.8

You can see the surplus spherical powder beat the two extruded powders, at least today and it was unseasonably cool, cold even. I'm not going to bother with DP-74 and 2520 in this load combination again but will definitely pursue the SplBall;SAECO 352 in HT'd 50/50 combo.

MJ

P.S. Here ya go... I decided to post the target shot with 50 grains of SplBall-3 (H380) on Thursday. Boolit was SAECO 352 cast of 50/50 alloy, sized in a Lyman .358 die which produced an average diameter of .3575" (before heat treating) and heat treated at 500F for approx. 75 minutes. Two days after the quench, the Lee hardness tester indicated a BHN between 22 and 23. The next step is to go back to bullets that are .001" over groove by sizing through my Lyman .359 die which happens to size WW metal at .3585" so it'll probably size air cooled 50/50 at just about the same diameter. Just for the sake of consistency, I'll HT at 500F for 75 minutes again but I doubt this much heat is really necessary. If I find a combo that'll shoot well at over 2200 fps, I'll start to play with the HT temps, but for now I'll just stick with 500F for 75 minutes.

Bass Ackward
05-23-2008, 06:51 AM
Remember, you can always use a filler to begin the seal if your gun turns out to like this diameter. It will generally help balls to burn too. I would recommend plastic shot buffer. That should allow you to go on up another 100 - 150 fps also.

Any chance that this was residual from fire lapping?

runfiverun
05-23-2008, 10:45 AM
think i would try the larger sizer first with that ball powder.
and if ya got one maybe the next size up first, before a filler.

i usually only use a filler to settle a powder e.s./vel.var. issue....looks like bass uses them as
a bore sealer.

Marlin Junky
05-23-2008, 04:27 PM
I'm going to try to shoot a few more rounds next week, all else the same except for bullet diameter which will be .3585" instead of .3575". I'll have to see if I've got at least 20 good bullets from the last casting session and heat treat tonight if I want to make it to the range next Thursday. I'm going on a road trip June 1st to return the middle of the month and will probably come back disoriented and out of bullets, so the next range session may not be until late June. :(

MJ

Nrut
05-23-2008, 10:51 PM
MJ...
What size is the boolit when it comes out of your Saeco 352 mold with your 50/50 alloy and also straight WW?...I have a Ruger .35 Whelen with 1:12 twist that I am starting to load for and looking for a boolit in the 240-250gr. range as the 220GB is to short for my throat..
My groove dia. is .3585" bore is .351" and throat is .3615"
I usually try to fit the boolit to the throat dia. minus a bit so I would want a boolit at least .360 is why I ask about the dia. of the Saeco boolit....
A fired case will easliy take a .364" dia. boolit..
Thanks

Marlin Junky
05-24-2008, 03:17 AM
My SAECO 352 drops bullets from the mold at .3595" to .3600" according to my calipers. The wide throat of the SAAMI spec .35 Whelen is what prodded me to buy a .350. If you fill that wide (and probably long) throat with a boolit from a custom mold AND accelerate it hard into the 12" twist, it needs to be one tough boolit. I'd go with a bore rider, for alignment sake, and size to .001" over groove.

MJ

Nrut
05-24-2008, 08:55 PM
Thanks MJ....I'll order the Seaco and if it doesn't fly I'll either size it down and PP it back to .360 or patch it up for a 9.3...:)

after thought: MJ what is the lenght of the Saeco from the base to the top of the first driving band (ie. bearing lenght)?

Marlin Junky
05-25-2008, 01:59 AM
Thanks MJ....I'll order the Seaco and if it doesn't fly I'll either size it down and PP it back to .360 or patch it up for a 9.3...:)

after thought: MJ what is the lenght of the Saeco from the base to the top of the first driving band (ie. bearing lenght)?

About .53" or a bit over 50% bearing length. If it doesn't work in your Whelen, you must have a .35 Remington or .358 Winchester laying around that it will work in. :-D

MJ

Marlin Junky
05-29-2008, 09:14 PM
Not much to say about the accuracy today other than I wasn't able to put five consecutive shots into 1.5 MOA much less the nickel sized group of last week and I started with a spankin' clean barrel too. I repeated everything possible except for bullet diameter which was .3585" this week instead of .3575" as last week. The one thing I couldn't control was the weather. It was much warmer today than it was last Thursday and I had to shoot much slower to keep the barrel temp down. My conclusion is, my lube won't cut the mustard at 2100 fps because there was definitely some fouling followed by poor accuracy followed by more of both.

Charges today were 50 and 51 grains of SplBall-3 (H380). The average velocities/stdDev's for 15 rounds each were 2116/28.5 and 2129/19.0 respectively. The 51 grain charge actually performed better than the 50 grain charge. Naturally, I cleaned the barrel before changing the charge weight.

If I can find a new lube that'll hold up under these conditions I'll try 51 and 52 grains of SplBall-3 after I get some more 352's cast, after I get back from Wyoming. I'm just wondering if any lube will fix this because it appears the leading starts at the land/groove junction where gas leakage is more likely (my intuition) and spreads its way across the grooves (near the muzzle). Maybe I need more pressure to obturate in the tiny barrel crevasses and a lube that'll stand up to more heat.

Later,
MJ

runfiverun
05-30-2008, 12:38 AM
M.J.
i usually like to keep my rifle stuff as close to .002 over bbl diam as i can get.
it is easier to swage a boolit down then it is to bump it up.
especially one that hard.
that saeco looks like a larger version of the rcbs silhouette boolits.
which i have good luck with.

keep us posted.

Marlin Junky
05-30-2008, 01:13 AM
runfiverun,

That SAECO 352 is great in a 16" twist .35R with spherical powders similar to AA2520 but I can't find the right combination in the fast twist .350. Seems like H380 wants to perform and the barrel is starting to clean up (with respect to powder residue) at 51 grains. I have all the Lyman 450 dies from .356" to .360" and my .359" die sizes air cooled 50/50 alloy at .3585" (according to my calipers). Unfortunately my .360" die doesn't size the same alloy to .3595" it sizes to .3605"! I've measured the barrel to .3570" to .3575". Maybe I should order a custom .3590" die but first I want to see what a firmer lube will do when coupled with .3585" bullets. I don't want to size too fat because that'll tend to put a spike early in the pressure vs. time function, which coupled with the steep rifling pitch of the 12" twist may be rough on bullets.

MJ

BABore
05-30-2008, 08:44 AM
I'm holding one of your Saeco bullets in my hand now. One you casted. IMO it doesn't have alot of lube capacity to begin with. The groove width is there, but not the depth. The groove depth is only 0.016". Were it me, I would try LBT Blue on it. It's usually too slick at 2,100 fps with bullets having adequate capacity. Up the velocity to 2,400 and it's great. I've worked with similar lube challenged bullets in my 375 at 2,100-2,500 fps. It' makes a huge difference in accuracy. I've ran accuracy tests with LBT vs a popular red lube and cut groups in half. Drop the velocity and it will reverse. Also, it may take anywhere from 5 to 20 rounds for your gun to settle in when changing lubes. Clean them and you have to start over.

runfiverun
05-30-2008, 11:05 AM
i have watched the lube coat my bbl with a chrono
both of my 7mm took 11 shots the other day
the vel;s started out low came up a bit leveled off then came up again
and leveled off . the second time it came up the lube star appeared that shot.

my vels were rather low as my load of 4831 was a wag load but only 200 fps below my prediction.
can you get the boolit into the throat?
or do you got a jump ?

Marlin Junky
05-30-2008, 02:16 PM
I'm holding one of your Saeco bullets in my hand now. One you casted. IMO it doesn't have alot of lube capacity to begin with. The groove width is there, but not the depth. The groove depth is only 0.016". Were it me, I would try LBT Blue on it. It's usually too slick at 2,100 fps with bullets having adequate capacity. Up the velocity to 2,400 and it's great. I've worked with similar lube challenged bullets in my 375 at 2,100-2,500 fps. It' makes a huge difference in accuracy. I've ran accuracy tests with LBT vs a popular red lube and cut groups in half. Drop the velocity and it will reverse. Also, it may take anywhere from 5 to 20 rounds for your gun to settle in when changing lubes. Clean them and you have to start over.

BABore,
I couldn't agree more about SAECO 352. It really needs a deeper lube groove but I am getting some minimal lube star (albeit dirty lube start) on the muzzle. I would like to make my own lube with the components I have or buy some microwax and start over. I've got the following lube ingredients in large quantity (that can't be purchased at a nearby retail outlet):

yellow beeswax
t3-carnauba
jojoba oil
anhydrous lanolin

I usually make about a pound of lube at a time and don't really know where to start anymore with respect to these more demanding "modern" barrels. The end products used to feel OK and shot well in my 16" twist 336's to 2100 fps but when I started using Carnauba to toughen the lube for higher pressures, I started making brittle lubes. To balance out the brittleness, I added Vaseline and sometimes a little more oil but basically that created somewhat crumbly lubes that are soft and slick on the bullets and I don't think they have the viscosity to hold up under high pressure. So I'm back to square one again and thinking about trying a pound of yellow beeswax and a quarter cup of jojoba oil just to make things simple.

As far as loading for the .350, I'm going to keep shooting the HT'd 50/50 alloy (22 to 23 BHN for now) and increase the charge weight of H380 in one grain increments until my fillings pop out. At 51 grains I'm getting smokey necks and an acceptable amount of powder residue and there's enough remaining case volume for another 10 grains or more so I think I can take this bullet to 2400 fps if I can find a lube that will hold out and the rifling can get a good grip. BTW, what is the rate of twist on your .375 and how deep is its rifling?

Thanks,
MJ

MJ

felix
05-30-2008, 02:27 PM
MJ, add some lanolin to increase the viscosity, and at the same time take away some brittleness. ... felix

Bass Ackward
05-30-2008, 02:39 PM
Lanolin?

#*&@ ^%?+ $~!="/\`

Marlin Junky
05-30-2008, 02:40 PM
can you get the boolit into the throat?
or do you got a jump ?

Bullet fit is really not a problem. I've set the bullet-to-rifling gap at about 1/32" because I was getting better groups that way opposed to a seat-to-touch configuration.

MJ

Marlin Junky
05-30-2008, 02:45 PM
Yeah, I don't know about lanolin. I kinda left the lanolin in my dust a long time ago when I observed how much its viscosity changes with respect to relatively small changes in temperature.

MJ

carpetman
05-30-2008, 02:50 PM
Marlin Junky--Dont know about lanolin---sounds like denial to me.

BABore
05-30-2008, 03:01 PM
BABore,
BTW, what is the rate of twist on your .375 and how deep is its rifling?

Thanks,
MJ

MJ

It's a 1 in 12 twist, 25 inch bbl from E.R. Shaw. 0.3752 groove, 0.3675 bore, 0.00385 deep. Been firelapped. It will keep its groups well under an inch below 2,400 fps with a 275 gr bullet. The highest I've taken it is around 2,600 fps and they open up to just over an inch. At this point I'm overstressing the HT'd 50/50 alloy.

I shoot mainly homemade lube too. Homemade by 357Max. It's an outstanding lube, but begins to falter for me at around 2,100-2,200 fps. For higher velocity or if the bullet is lube shy I use LBT soft. Don't like paying the price for it, but accuracy sometimes has its price. Talk to 357Max and he might give you his recipe for Voodoo red lube.

Marlin Junky
05-30-2008, 03:22 PM
Mike has convinced me that I need to invest in some microwax and I probably will next month but I'd also like to put together a lube with the components I already have for shooting up to 2200... it doesn't even need to be an all season lube.

Thank you very much for the details on your .375.

MJ

runfiverun
05-30-2008, 09:13 PM
o.k.
just looking at that mold i thought that boolit was maybe a bore rider or partial rider.

Marlin Junky
05-31-2008, 01:35 AM
o.k.
just looking at that mold i thought that boolit was maybe a bore rider or partial rider.

I'd call it a tangential ogive.

MJ

357maximum
06-02-2008, 08:56 AM
Don

Lube can be a paradox and once a man starts to seriously seek out the best he can get speed/accuracy wise for one boolit and one load he will inevitably end up with a lube that does not work as well for other boolit/rifle/load combinations..a tuned and tweaked 4barrel carb has no use on your family sedan, but it serves it's purpose well onit's intended engine...you have opened pandoras box.....welcome to the consequences of that decision.

I have always been damn happy with the lubes I was using for the their individual rifle/boolit/load combinations and then BaBore hands me some LBT soft......it shrunk almost all of my groups on my super duper high end stuff.....so here I go again.


I was happy with sub one inchers at 100 , but now that I have stepped off the deep end once again seeking 1/2 to 5/8 groups and I have thrown my whole lube paradigm out of alignment....I will get it back, but it will take some time.


Once one finds the boolit/powder/primer combo that makes him close to happy, the only thing left is lube....it is thee smallest component change, but it does make a difference if you are paying attention.......the question at some point is "how good do I need it" . We would have never stepped foot on the moon or had the ability to carry a whole telecommunications dept in our pocket if we humans were ever happy with what we have. So the craziness must serve a purpose...right?

I am not sure what you mean by brittle, going by feel/texture I would have bet against the LBT stuff...it is like dried up grease mixed with flour, but it works, and I would owe the house some money if I were a betting man. You will not find what you seek if you quit looking.

Michael

Marlin Junky
07-18-2008, 01:48 AM
The M77 .350 was pressed into service today.

Heat treating 50/50 alloy to 22 BHN and using 50 and 51 grains of SplBall-3 (like H380) produced decent accuracy but only for a few shots out of a clean barrel (up to about a half dozen rounds). Next time out I'm going to shoot SAECO 352 cast of straight clip-on WW metal and heat treated to as hard as possible. Two lubes shall be tried: LBT Soft Blue (which was the lube used today) and a blend of beeswax, Alox 2138F and Carnauba. The velocity today averaged 2100 to 2150 fps (3, 15 round strings with 50 and 51 grains and two different boolit alloys). Here's the best target of the day, shot at 100 yards, which will rival a Ballard rifled 336A chambered in .35 Remington if you ignor the 3 flyers. :( The orange dot is 3/4". The first 4 rounds went into the cluster, #5 is the one at 12 O'clock and the round way out there at 3 O'clock is #10. The average velocity for the 10 round string was 2116 fps. I was really hoping for a hunting load using 50/50 alloy in this gun and may try it again wit h RL-15 or perhaps a different boolit that carries more lube, but I think the 12" twist will require HT'd clip-on metal if I want to achieve any degree of accuracy at 2300 fps. In the future, I'll probably try HT'd straight WW metal with an annealed nose alla Paco Kelly... or a new barrel.

In conclusion, my best guess at this point is the boolit metal is still too soft for the barrel conditions. I checked the muzzle condition before round #10 was fired and there was definitely some boolit metal in the grooves. Sadly, the barrel conditions were cleaner than typical conditions while shooting 13 to 14 BHN metal into 1.5 or so MOA from my old 336's (which beg not to be cleaned). I keep thinking that I need a nice even coat of fouling as with my Ballard rifled 336's but groups with this rifle soon turn into "patterns" after 15 rounds or so even when staring from a mirror bright barrel.

MJ

Marlin Junky
07-18-2008, 07:07 AM
It's a 1 in 12 twist, 25 inch bbl from E.R. Shaw. 0.3752 groove, 0.3675 bore, 0.00385 deep. Been firelapped. It will keep its groups well under an inch below 2,400 fps with a 275 gr bullet. The highest I've taken it is around 2,600 fps and they open up to just over an inch. At this point I'm overstressing the HT'd 50/50 alloy.

Bruce,

Could .375 checks possibly form a better gas seal than the much lighter .357 checks? How much over groove diameter are your bullets for those HV loads? Have you tried to get that kind of performance using spherical powders?

MJ

BABore
07-18-2008, 08:09 AM
Bruce,

Could .375 checks possibly form a better gas seal than the much lighter .357 checks? How much over groove diameter are your bullets for those HV loads? Have you tried to get that kind of performance using spherical powders?

MJ


More likely the thicker 375 GC's are deforming less and not screwing up the base as much. I'm sizing at both 0.3775 and 0.378 depending on bullet. The primary powder I used was XMP 5744. You should be able to far exceed your current velocity with that. Email AA for higher end data as their book stuff only goes so hot. I've also used stick powders that are on the slow side for bullet wt./cartridge. I use the jacketed data for the matching bullet wt. I've found that only under perfect conditions can I use the typical jacketed powder straight up. A little slower powder is always easier to get to work. If you don't see small, round groups during test loads, cut your losses and move on. Try another one. I personally, would avoid ball powders for what your doing.

Try casting some boolits out of 85% chilled shot/14% Mag shot/1% tin and OHT'ing them. Antimony levels will be much lower than WW's, and you will be a little harder to boot. That said, I think your running out of lube in your current boolit. Myself and others have taken 50/50 up to 2,400 fps without problems. Beyond that you new more hardness, but similar alloy properties.

BABore
07-18-2008, 08:47 AM
Here's a pic of a 365-190 GC boolit I made for my Ballard rifled Marlin 35 Remington. Though hardly fired, the groove diameter is 0.363 and the bore is 0.350. This boolits drops at 0.3655 dia., 190 grains, and takes a 375 GC. To get it to work, without buckling the GC, I had to cut a step shank so the GC material had someplace to go. The boolit's nose profile is the same as the GB 360-220GC which has a front band that tapers slightly for a 0.360+ bore.

BABore
07-18-2008, 08:54 AM
Here's a pic (L to R) of 360-220GC, 363-200GC, and the 365-190 GC mentioned in the previous post. The first two take 357 GC, so you can compare the difference to the last one with 375 GC.

Marlin Junky
07-18-2008, 03:35 PM
BABore,

Thanks for all the great info. Does the 360-220-GB have potential for a HV boolit in the .350? Would its narrow waist become a problem at near 40K CUP?

MJ

BABore
07-19-2008, 07:33 AM
357Max is shooting it in his max and 35 Rem at over 2 grand using 50/50 WD'd. If you start it out soft, with a slow for cartridge powder, you should have no problem. We're both using top end jacketed data in the 35 Rem. I shot the 360-220 in my oversized 35 before I fully believed the 7 groove bbl was measuring that big. Even undersized by 0.003, I was getting less than 1 1/2" groups. It was bumping up rather well and I'm sure the 0.007" deep rifling helped.[smilie=1:

Check with Mike on some boolits as he bought my mold.

Marlin Junky
07-29-2008, 06:28 PM
BABore,

I'm going to try 44 grains of canister AA2520 behind 360-220 (BHN 17-18) this Thursday. Velocity should be around 2000 fps and I'll move up from there if the barrel stays clean after about 15 rounds. I'm lubing with a blend of beeswax, Alox 2138F and T3-Carnauba which is a fairly stiff and sticky lube. I'll call it my Dessert Lube if it works out... perhaps I should toss in an ounce of grated Ivory but I don't want to screw it up before thoroughly testing it. Problem is, I ran out of Javelina so I don't have any more 2138F.

If I can shoot a decent group Thursday, I'll clean up my 360-220 mold and cast a bunch more. The thing about 360-220, at least for my .350, is that I can seat them to 2.84" which brings the case mouth only to the second band just above the lube groove. Too bad it's not actually a 360-240 or so... having essentially a trailing band like SAECO 352 but all else the same.

Are you guys smoking the 360-220 mold? I got in trouble over-smoking my 360-220 during my last casting session (no, I wasn't busted for possession :-D). Any tips on using these crazy Lee aluminum 6-bangers?

MJ

runfiverun
07-29-2008, 09:51 PM
all i know about luminum is you gotta get em and keep em hot.
and clean the jeebus outta them.

BABore
07-30-2008, 08:51 AM
Sometime it takes several casting attemps before they begin to throw good boolits. Usually, for me, it's just about when I'm finally PO'd enough to smash it with a hammer. Disassemble the thing and throw it in the dishwasher a couple times. Smoke it lightly and run it hot-hot. Not necessarily the alloy, just the mold.

The 360-220 I pictured was not from a GB mold.

Marlin Junky
07-30-2008, 02:35 PM
The 360-220 I pictured was not from a GB mold.

Bruce,

Where did it come from??

MJ

BABore
07-30-2008, 02:41 PM
I'm good with a file![smilie=1:

Marlin Junky
07-30-2008, 02:47 PM
I'm good with a file![smilie=1:

I am too, but that looks like 2/3 of the 360-220. Is that from Lee? The cavities in my 360-220 have anommolies near the meplat where the tangent ogive changes concavity slightly which forms squashed looking points on the bullets. Your ogives look pretty good! That mold has gotta be from Lee though... no one else would dare vent a mold like that.

MJ

45 2.1
07-30-2008, 03:12 PM
I am too, but that looks like 2/3 of the 360-220. Is that from Lee? The cavities in my 360-220 have anommolies near the meplat where the tangent ogive changes concavity slightly which forms squashed looking points on the bullets. Your ogives look pretty good! That mold has gotta be from Lee though... no one else would dare vent a mold like that.

MJ

That was made before Lee got a drawing for it.

runfiverun
07-30-2008, 11:41 PM
there is no way that is a lee mold..
i have seen a 8mm mold that looked like that.........now where was that????

Marlin Junky
07-31-2008, 09:24 PM
360-220 with 44 grains of canister AA2520 didn't cut the mustard today but it appeared the barrel remained cleaner with 360-220 than with SAECO 352 because the former holds more lube than the latter. Velocity averaged 2050 fps. Stats weren't good enough to continue with this powder/boolit combo; therefore, I'm moving on to a another powder and harder boolits... these were about 17-18 BHN.

MJ

runfiverun
07-31-2008, 10:38 PM
m.j.
that is horizontal stringing,, you might wanna throw that up again..
with a bit of a change,if you don't think you are near your pressure max.
you might wanna put another 1/2 gr in there and try again.
it might pull it's self together.
that looks like you may have an in between load there.

Marlin Junky
08-01-2008, 11:17 AM
Another 50-100 fps is easily doable with this powder, (the burn wasn't very complete) but I'll need some really hard boolits. I've got some range scrap that heat treats to BHN 27 (75 min. @ 500F) that I should try but it'll be a couple weeks before I can test it (haven't cast them yet!).

MJ

Marlin Junky
08-15-2008, 05:46 AM
Here's kind of an interesting target shot today with 14 grains of Scot 453 (pretty much a fine grained version of WW-231) and Lyman 358430.

My boolits registered BHN 13 using the Lee Hardness tester and QuickLoad gave an approx. vel of 1534 fps and a pressure of 22958 psi using 14 grains of WW-231 as the selected propellant. The actual chronograph results were:

n=9 (I missed recording 1 round of the 10 round string)
high=1555
low=1521
range=34
mean=1531 (how's that for close!)
std.dev.=10.4
%dev=0.68%

Considering the QuickLoad estimated velocity was within 4 fps of the actual, I trust QuickLoad's pressure estimation to be fairly accurate. Assuming the 1440 constant has validity, the BHN should be right around 16. Perhaps a little harder boolit would pull this group together nicely... we'll see next time.

Also for next week I'm going to try to match a charge of A2400 to the GB .360-220 cast of 50/50 (WW/Pb) and HT'd to 22-23 BHN. The velocity should be 2000-2100 fps and if the M77 shoots like a load of triple aught buck, what else can I conclude other than Ruger barrels can't cut the mustard? The last time this Ruger shot a good group was way back when I shot some SAECO 356s at under 1900 fps. I'm getting real close to a rebarrel.

MJ

BABore
08-15-2008, 08:28 AM
One thing I haven't seen you try (correct me if I'm wrong) is to try some slow-for-cartridge powders. What is the slowest book powder listed for your cartridge with an equivelent wt. jacketed bullet? Try working with powders that are just a bit slower than that one. Fast to medium powders are slamming your boolit's base right now. Anything less than a perfect boolit to case/throat/bore fit is going to leave room for it to get hammered around in the slop. I would suggest trying to push them boolits out slower til they get fully into the bbl before you hammer them with pressure.

Marlin Junky
08-15-2008, 08:09 PM
One thing I haven't seen you try (correct me if I'm wrong) is to try some slow-for-cartridge powders. What is the slowest book powder listed for your cartridge with an equivelent wt. jacketed bullet? Try working with powders that are just a bit slower than that one. Fast to medium powders are slamming your boolit's base right now. Anything less than a perfect boolit to case/throat/bore fit is going to leave room for it to get hammered around in the slop. I would suggest trying to push them boolits out slower til they get fully into the bbl before you hammer them with pressure.

Bruce,

I have tried powders in the H380 to Ramshot Hunter range while I was trying to decide what diameter this barrel likes best. H380 is a good powder for this cartridge and I also will be getting some Re15 soon. Ramshot Hunter (DP-85) was leaving a lot of unburned powder behind and I think that may have been effecting accuracy. 50 to 51 grains of H380 with SAECO 352 is on my list of good components to experiment with but even when using a known quality lube like LBT Soft Blue, the accracy at 2100+ fps doesn't last for more than a few rounds. Until I decide on a rebarrel, I'll be shooting RCBS 35-200FN cast of 50/50 and HT'd at 450 to 500F. The problem with the slower powders is that to get a good burn, the velocity becomes too high for SAECO 352 and leading starts. Either the boolit doesn't carry enough lube or I need a new barrel.

I'll also try to develop some .357 handgun power type loads with Lyman 358430 and I also have SAECO 356 and RCBS 35-180-SIL to experiment with too but I think SAECO 352 may stay in the box for awhile.

MJ

Marlin Junky
07-23-2009, 07:20 PM
Here's a couple targets shot with the .350 which amounts to 10 consecutive rounds with the ambient temp in the 90's late this morning. The tighter 5 shot group was the second one and the barrel was pretty darn hot by the seventh or eight round. By the tenth round it felt like it was in excess of 140F.

So... it looks like my lube (homemade concoction) works better in a hot barrel even though I got some lead traces on a patched bore brush. At room temp, my lube has about the consistency of Javelina (w/o the stickiness) and is loaded with Carnauba and Jojoba and has some red racing grease, Vaseline and even some Alox that was in the form of Javelina lube (really old stuff). Oh yeah, and some Ivory. My question is: what could I do to make it shoot this good through a cold barrel?

MJ

P.S. The lube base is Microcrystalline but there is also some beeswax added. The range was 75 yards; the velocity about 1900 fps and the white aiming spot in the center is 3/4" in diameter.

35remington
07-23-2009, 08:58 PM
MJ, would you be so kind as to list the as cast diameters of the 360-220 that you get from your mould? Specifically bore ride section and the bands.

I was somewhat disappointed that results came out to be about .348" nose .359" band while I was hoping for more like .351+ and .361"

Accuracy was substantially better through my friend's M77 350 when beagled to fatten up the nose some, but not up to the RCBS 200 FN in that respect. Now it's time to try it in my own stainless 350 M77. The 360-220 was my deer bullet for my Microgroove Marlin 35 Remington this past year, but only got to try it on coyote. It responded similarly in that beagling was better, accuracywise, to make the bore riding section bore ride better. About 35 grains IMR 3031 kicked it along at about 2020 fps.

We're still arguing about the twist, Dave and I, on the 350 Mk II. I am not certain if it is 1-12 or 1-14, still. Conflicts arise depending upon the source. Mine's stainless, his is blued.

You seemed to be absolutely certain it's 1-12; care to cite your source? I seem to recall you quoted Ruger, but I'm not sure.

Marlin Junky
07-23-2009, 11:45 PM
MJ, would you be so kind as to list the as cast diameters of the 360-220 that you get from your mould? Specifically bore ride section and the bands. I was somewhat disappointed that results came out to be about .348" nose .359" band while I was hoping for more like .351+ and .361"

I'll need to cast a few... I don't think I have any boolits laying around.


We're still arguing about the twist, Dave and I, on the 350 Mk II. I am not certain if it is 1-12 or 1-14, still. Conflicts arise depending upon the source. Mine's stainless, his is blued. You seemed to be absolutely certain it's 1-12; care to cite your source? I seem to recall you quoted Ruger, but I'm not sure.

I measured the twist myself... it is 1 turn in 12".

MJ

P.S. 35Rem... sorry if there was any confusion. I assumed lookers on would click the target thumbnails and notice these groups were shot with SAECO 352 (251 grains checked; BHN 16; .3580-3585") not GB 360-220.

runfiverun
07-24-2009, 02:22 AM
you will have to change the lubes viscosity to make it act like it is in a hot bbl.
i told you that saeco would shoot in the 358 bbls.
it does in mine.

Marlin Junky
07-24-2009, 03:37 AM
you will have to change the lubes viscosity to make it act like it is in a hot bbl.
i told you that saeco would shoot in the 358 bbls.
it does in mine.

Yes, but how? I don't want to lower the melt temp. I think I may try 38 grains of AA2200 (a little more pressure) and hold everything else constant. Or, I might try to draw back to 14-15 BHN and shoot 37 grains again. It was kind of tricky and time consuming to drawn back to BHN 16 from a full heat treat of about BHN 29-30 but 15 minutes at 290F did the trick.

MJ

BABore
07-24-2009, 08:13 AM
Add more Jojoba oil to the mix. Tighten it back up with something useless like parafine.

yondering
07-24-2009, 01:20 PM
I received my Final Finish kit today so next Thursday I'll probably shoot 100 rounds of gasp! copper patched boolits.

MJ

Marlin Junky, did you use this kit yet? How did it work out for you? Did you happen to measure if they were .357" or .358" bullets? I've been wanting to use this in my Whelen, but it looked like they were .357" bullets, which is probably too small to effectively polish my .358" bore.

Also, thanks for the recommendation on the Saeco 352 mold. I picked one up from a forum member a while ago, and have been experimenting with it paper patched in my Whelen. Getting good velocity but very poor accuracy with ACWW. I was hoping for a good hunting bullet without going to a really hard alloy. Still working on it...

Marlin Junky
07-24-2009, 03:08 PM
Marlin Junky, did you use this kit yet? How did it work out for you? Did you happen to measure if they were .357" or .358" bullets? I've been wanting to use this in my Whelen, but it looked like they were .357" bullets, which is probably too small to effectively polish my .358" bore.

Yes, I already used it. I also used a kit on my .35W Handi-Rifle which seemed to respond better than the .350 Ruger. The Ruger could use a new crown now but I'm not sure the worn lands in the last 1/4" or so of rifling are negatively affecting accuracy. I'm also not sure the Tubbs Kit is totally responsible for (all) the wear; i.e., I didn't thoroughly inspect the crown before starting the Tubbs treatment. The 225 grain Sierras I recieved were closer to .3580", but I asked Tubbs to make me a kit of 'fat' ones and they supposidly 'miked' each one in the kit.


Also, thanks for the recommendation on the Saeco 352 mold. I picked one up from a forum member a while ago, and have been experimenting with it paper patched in my Whelen. Getting good velocity but very poor accuracy with ACWW. I was hoping for a good hunting bullet without going to a really hard alloy. Still working on it...

I got good results with 50/50 alloy (lead/clip-on WWs).

MJ

Marlin Junky
07-24-2009, 03:26 PM
Add more Jojoba oil to the mix. Tighten it back up with something useless like parafine.

Thanks Bruce... I'll repeat the experiment with one and two more grains of AA2200 next week and if I get similar results, I'll add another TBS of Jojoba. 39 grains (two more than yesterday) may push me to the velocity limit which this barrel is capable of maintaining accuracy without going to a very hard bullet. The problem with very hard bullets in this rifle is that accuracy in maintained for only a very few shots due to excess leading... which holds true for even a premium high speed lube like LBT Soft Blue. More experimenting with bullet hardness and lube may eventually reveal a combination that yields good performance beyond 2100 fps but I may have a 16" twist barrel installed before that happens.

MJ

P.S. When I finally run out of AA2200, I hope it'll be a lot easier to develop a load with a canistered powder such as Re7. I wonder if/when 844/846 ever becomes available again, I should purchase about 4 jugs!

yondering
07-24-2009, 05:52 PM
The 225 grain Sierras I recieved were closer to .3580", but I asked Tubbs to make me a kit of 'fat' ones and they supposidly 'miked' each one in the kit.
MJ

Thanks, that's good to know. I thought they didn't make a kit for .358 rifle, as Midway lists all the others, including 38/9mm pistol, but not that one. I looked on the Tubb website though and see that the .358 is available, so I'll be buying one.

I've used this in several other calibers and really like it.

P.S. sorry for the minor thread hijack.

35remington
07-24-2009, 07:08 PM
MJ, no confusion on my part, I read the writing on the targets, but I kinda went off on a tangent asking about the 360-220 dimensions since you mentioned it in earlier posts.

Just glad you kept the threads and updates going.

I'm still in the process of smoothing the barrel in mine a bit with J-words (I don't believe in shoot-clean-shoot-clean break in) just by trying to put several hundred J-words thru it first, finding a good accurate load with a 250 at good speed ( AA2460 is the speed champ so far, with 2590 fps average from the 22 inch barrel with Hornady 250 spire point).

The plan is to zero with the full power load, then use the lower two dots on the Leupold 2-7X to find a zero with a cast load. A reduced load of 33 grains IMR SR 4759 reaches about 2175 fps, 35 Remington speed, with a 200 grain Hornady RN or Remington Core-Lokt, and shoots very well. I hope to have a cast bullet update of my own on the 350 once I get the jacketed shooting out of the way, and moved on to the real bullet of choice, my own cast projectiles.

I hope to develop a few small game loads using 158 SWC's or RNFP's as well.

Marlin Junky
07-24-2009, 08:07 PM
AA2460 is the speed champ so far, with 2590 fps average from the 22 inch barrel with Hornady 250 spire point.

That sounds like a powerful load. I'd like to know what else you've tried just in case I run into a Griz in MT. Have you tried AA2520 yet? PM me whenever you've got the time so we don't clutter up this thread with jacketed bullet stuff.

MJ

runfiverun
07-24-2009, 09:58 PM
mj a bit more vaseline or i like to use lanolin to soften up a lube i know jojoba oil is expensive.
a dash of atf will soften a lube up too and won't hurt anything.
but lanolin is my choise and lithium grease is next, yeah the white stuff.but just a couple teaspoons.

Marlin Junky
07-25-2009, 05:33 PM
mj a bit more vaseline or i like to use lanolin to soften up a lube i know jojoba oil is expensive.
a dash of atf will soften a lube up too and won't hurt anything.
but lanolin is my choise and lithium grease is next, yeah the white stuff.but just a couple teaspoons.

I have lanolin and near 2 gallons of Jojoba. I'm afraid lanolin will make the lube sticky and others who have worked extensively on lube development prefer Vaseline over lanolin. I'm going to see how 38 grains shoots next week before adding anything. Depending on my results incorporating a little more pressure next week, I may add only a couple teaspoons of Jojoba or a TBS of Vaseline (can't decide which) to what looks like a couple pounds of lube because the lube is already pretty soft in the summer. I think the problem may be I've added too much Ivory and/or SAECO 352 just doesn't carry that much lube. The reason I claim the latter is due to the lack of a lube star with a clean, cool barrel.

MJ

Marlin Junky
07-25-2009, 06:47 PM
Yes, but how? I don't want to lower the melt temp. I think I may try 38 grains of AA2200 (a little more pressure) and hold everything else constant. Or, I might try to draw back to 14-15 BHN and shoot 37 grains again. It was kind of tricky and time consuming to drawn back to BHN 16 from a full heat treat of about BHN 29-30 but 15 minutes at 290F did the trick.

MJ

P.S. I need to make a correction to the above: 15 minutes at 290F brings 29-30BHN bullets down to about 22-23BHN. An additional 15 minutes yields 16BHN when re-annealing the same room temp 22-23BHN bullets.

runfiverun
07-26-2009, 02:07 AM
makes it more tacky?
anhydrous yes, but the creamy tube stuff don't.
i use a tacky type of lube that requires heat to flow through the sizer on my 352 it has shot well when cool i have yet to use it in the summer but since it works better when warm i think it will be fine as it gives a star in the colder weather.
the star isn't a requirement no leading and continued accuracy is.