Converting .30-06 to 7.7x58 with Lee dies and Quick Trim

[NavyVet1959]

I am currently wanting to create some brass for an Arisaka Type 99 7.7x58 rifle. My research has shown that it can be created by trimming and resizing .30-06 brass, so I'm considering using the Lee Quick Trim for it. I already have the Wilson trimmer, but it would require a custom shell holder for the 7.7x48. I might be able to just use the Wilson .30-06 shell holder, but I'm not sure.

I currently have a set of Lee 7.7x58 reloading dies in my cart at Midway and was wondering about adding the Lee Quick Trim for .30-06 to it. They don't sell the Quick Trim for 7.7x58. Looking at their product pages, it seems that the Quick Trim is indexing off the shoulder whereas their Zip Trim indexes off the inner surface of the primer hole. It would seem that this could result in different OALs if the brass was from different manufacturers, so I suspect that the Zip Trim would not be appropriate. As such, I'm curious about the Quick Trim for this endeavor.

For a conversion like this, how would you suggest it be accomplished?

Can the .30-06 brass be run all the way up in the 7.7x58 resizing die or will I need to trim a bit off of it first?

Will the .30-06 brass after it has been run through the resizing die for 7.7x58 fit in the .30-06 Quick Trim die or will the neck be too big?

Is there enough room in the .30-06 Quick Trim die to trim off the approximately 5mm difference in case length between the .30-06 and 7.7x58?

If the case is resized to 7.7x58 first, the shoulder will be moved back approximately 0.128" according to the two drawings that I've seen for the 7.7x58 and .30-06 cartridges (see below). Will there still be enough of the case sticking out that it can be held by the shell holder?

7.7x58 Drawing
http://stevespages.com/jpg/cd77x58japanesearisaka.jpg

.30-06 Drawing
https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/1/1a/Cartridge_30-06.png

[bruce drake]

Actually, the LEE system should index off the total pin length and not whether the pin bellies out on the had of the cartridge. If you look at the LEE pilot, the pin that fits through the flashhole is usually quite long to prevent the pilot from contacting the cartridge head. Most boxer primerd cases that haven't been had their primer holes prepped after initial firing will often have a bit of flashing around the primer hole from the drawing process of their manufacture when the primer hole was punched into the case by the forming machine.

Now that said, I use the LEE case length gauges and cutter system almost exclusively to trim my brass. Its probably the easiest system to get brass cut to a uniform length. The downside is that it is to only one length. That's it. one length which prevent the gauge from cutting too far but doesn't allow the flexibility other systems offer.

30-06 to 7.7x58. Do it all the time. reform with sizing die and then just trim to length. too easy.

[NavyVet1959]

30-06 to 7.7x58. Do it all the time. reform with sizing die and then just trim to length. too easy.

Are you using the Lee Quick Trim .30-06 die to trim the brass to length?

[EDG]

Get a RCBS 7.7 trim die

Form your cases and saw them off

FL size them

Trim to length

[yovinny]

FWIW, I'd find something else.
I bought the new 'quick trim' system for the 300BO..It was a waste of time and money.
It seemed sharp, but it hardly cuts a chip and then just turns without cutting in. I just couldent put enough down pressure on it to make it cut worth a hoot, or this one is just ground defective.
I used the older cutter and stud system in a drill press years ago and it worked OK, but not this new quick trim....I tried it a few times and just gave up on it, though I havent brought myself to toss it yet.
So if you want this one and the 300BO die for the price of a flat rate box, just message and LMK.
Cheers, YV

[Safeshot]

Titan Reloading (Site Sponsor for this forum at top of home page) lists the Lee case Length Gage (stud) & shell holder for $4.84 as # 90115.

Since you are using 30/06 brass the 30/06 shell holder should work with your present trimmer if it is adjustable for length.

If there is any question of the sizing die being long enough to size the 30/06 case, just trim a few of the 30/06 cases to the proper 58mm length, resize/reform them and trim again, (done). Then reform one "not trimmed", if it "bottoms out", stop and trim it first, then resize/reform it. You can also resize the 30/06 case with the decapping pin and expander plug removed from the 7.7mm die and then trim the neck to proper cartridge case length, lube the inside of the neck and expand the neck a "little" with a tapered punch, lube the inside of the neck and the case and run it through the sizing die again for proper case neck tension.

When reforming 30/06 brass to 7.7 X 58MM it is usually best to lube the case near the case head and about 1/2 of the case body in the normal manner. The other half of the case body, the shoulder and the neck area should have minimum case lube to prevent wrinkles at the shoulder area during the reforming process.

Be sure to lube the inside of the case neck prior to resizing the case. I like to also lube the inside the case neck and expand the case neck prior to resizing/reforming it with a tapered punch so that it is easy to force it over the expanding plug.

I like to use "as fired" fired 30/06 cases to reform. No reason to size the neck down only to size it up again. Also the portion of the body of the case, near the case head, needs to be as large as the 7.7 X 58 sizing die will provide.

Just some opinions, Safeshot

[taco650]

I did this years ago. I think I rough cut the cases with a hacksaw, then squared them up with my old RCBS hand crank case trimmer, then ran them through standard Lee 7.7 dies. After that I inside reamed the necks with a 30 neck reamer and resized again. Had no issues with the cases when shooting or reloading. Finally broke down and bought a box of Norma 7.7 factory brass. That was spendy! Moral of the story, it can be done and you don't need a fancy tool.

[Charley]

Conversions like this, I usually rough cut the case perhaps 1mm longer than the trim length. Rough cut can be done on a small lathe (like I use), a chop saw mentioned by others, and there are other options as well. Deburr, form in the sizing die, then trim to length. If it is available I use Lee's case length gauge and cutter, with the cutter chucked into a drill press. Relatively fast and easy, and cheaper than many options.

[paul edward]

Try the Wilson .308 Winchester trim die. I have used one for years to trim .30/06 based cases to 54mm, 57mm and 58mm.

[NavyVet1959]

I tried the .45ACP Wilson die since I already had it. It works, but just barely. Probably a bit short. Looks like I'll be having to get the .308 or .30-06 Wilson die.

[leadman]

If you can round up some 8X57 brass this is the easiest to make the 7.7 X58 out of. Ends up 1mm short but hurts nothing. I just run them in the full length 7.7X58 die and load them.

[NavyVet1959]

If you can round up some 8X57 brass this is the easiest to make the 7.7 X58 out of. Ends up 1mm short but hurts nothing. I just run them in the full length 7.7X58 die and load them.

That's not a caliber that I see around here. I have a couple hundred .30-06 pieces of brass, but currently no .30-06 rifle, so I figure I might as well use them for the 7.7x58. Looks like I'll just be doing the same conversion steps that I'm currently doing in making .300 AAC brass.

[leadman]

I made some 7.7X58 out of 30-06 using the full length sizing die with no issues. I had several hundred 8X57 and no gun so changed to those.

[jcren]

For what it is worth, you can trim the classic lee trim guides to the length you need for whatever purpose. I have a Taurus 85 that I short cut 38 special for to allow it to eject clear with the short j-frame style ejector. Standard lee 38 special trim guide trimmed about .125 and the brass won't fall back into the hole.

[mac1911]

I cut about half the neck off the 30-06 cases with a dremal tool. Ran them through the 7.7 sizing day with a good even lube , not heavy just even coat I also lubed the inside of the neck..... I bought the correct size pilot for my rcbs lathe trimmer.


I later found 7.7mm brass on sale at grafts....plus picked up some 7.7 ammo locally a,while back....ppu brand I believe?

[Eddie2002]

I've been resizing 30-06 down to 7.7x58 for years. I trim the 30-06 brass down first and leave it about 20 thousands over, anneal it and then run it through a RCBS full length die using a light coat of resizing wax. It helps to run the brass in about half way, pull it out and run it in again. I used to run the 30-06 brass into the dies before trimming which is a bit more work and can put a bit of strain on the press. I'm lucky enough to have a mini lathe which does the final trimming so I can't give any advice on trimmers. I do make a paper and tape sleeve that I slide over the base of the case which protects the case from the chuck on the lathe. Been using a lot of Lake City blank brass which works great. The case gets shortened past the crimps for 7.7x58.

[snowtigger]

I bought 7.7 Jap brass from Graf's. Don't know if they have it right now, but it is worth checking.

[Tackleberry41]

8mm to convert is not easy to find. I use to get buckets of brass from a friend who worked at an outdoor range, never saw an 8mm. Tons of 270 or 30/06. It was free so I was forming it to 8mm. No fancy tools. I cut most of the neck off the 270, with a cut off wheel in my dremel, be a little longer than 8mm. Ran them thru my 8mm die, no expander, then again with the expander. in my neck die. It was to much sometimes for the rim to do both at once. Then a quick trip thru my old RCBS trimmer, broke down and bought the universal head vs the plate style holders. I was reaming and neck turning, but figured out the mil spec chamber didn't need it. I just use them for now anyways, to put the powder and bullets out of the old Turkish stuff I have when the necks split. A friend has a Arisaka, don't know if hes even tried to fire it or not.

The Lee hand trimmers do cut to a consistent length, the pin touches the shell holder, not the bottom of the case. They can be set for a different length but is permanent, they tend to go with a max spec, I file a little off the end. Have been thinking of buying a new base piece, drilling it, then a set screw where you could adjust the length a little. Looked at the new Lee trimmer, but the reviews were not very glowing, and caliber specific so gets pricey, kind of unneeded if you already have a regular trimmer, plus I have a box full of their hand trimmers. Sometimes easier to use them than setting the other one.

[Eddie2002]

Here's how I do it, trim first then resize. The little Unimat lathe is a real dream for trimming down the brass and I can trim just over two per minute. The third case in is one that has already been fired once. I'm loading a 100 grain .311 WW boolit over 6.5 grains of BE86 which is not a bad load at 50 yds and real easy on the brass.
151544

[corbinace]

A very timely thread for me as I am in the process of reviving some Japanese rifles at the moment. A couple of 99s in 7.7 and a 38 that has been rechambered to 6.5/257 Roberts or 6.5x57

I tried, as an experiment, to take some 30.06 through the 257 dies and they went just fine with a very long neck and a bit of longitudinal crimping on the shoulder. Really surprised how easy they went from big to small.

Now, I am not thinking of actually using these as I have some more appropriate brass coming, but I am new to reforming and wondered...

Will the lengthwise crimp on the shoulder lead to case failure?
Could I have prevented the crimping by annealing first?

Having fun with a new aspect of reloading, Tim.

[GooseGestapo]

I recently went through this.
I sized the '06 brass in the 7.7 dies (Lee).
I then cut them about 1mm long with a Harbor Freight 2" cut off saw. Trimmed with Lee trimmer.

First shot extracted..... HUH...?! Rifle has been rechambered to 7.7x63; aka 7.7-06, aka .31/06!!!
OH WELL! At least it was only 50. Besides, they had tired necks from being fired in a Garand.

[NavyVet1959]

I recently went through this.
I sized the '06 brass in the 7.7 dies (Lee).
I then cut them about 1mm long with a Harbor Freight 2" cut off saw. Trimmed with Lee trimmer.

First shot extracted..... HUH...?! Rifle has been rechambered to 7.7x63; aka 7.7-06, aka .31/06!!!
OH WELL! At least it was only 50. Besides, they had tired necks from being fired in a Garand.

That sort of rechambering makes more sense to me, but mine is not that way. If it had been that way, I would have been able to chamber a piece of .30-06 brass. I tried it, but the bolt would not rotate, so it wasn't fully chambering.

[haynk]

I did that years ago. I had some 30-06 blanks, removed powder,removed decapping pin from 7.7 die, resized, then trimmed. I don't remember the details of trimming, think I may have used tubing cutter, resized again, then filed the cases to final length. Then used deburring tool, loaded cases, fired. The blank primer worked just fine. I also reloaded using regular primers and made cases from regular 30-06 cases. I was told that blanks then were made then by taking once fired military brass, resizing, then loading with blank powder and primers. There was a seating method which left a crimp in the neck of the case, similar to the roll crimp on old shotgun shells. Warning!! If you get any blank powder, do not load it behind a bullet. It burns very rapidly and would explode if contained behind a bullet. I loaded both cast and jacketed projectiles. Sorry, I don't remember any loads.

I don't know anything about current blank manufacture. I do know that back in the 60's 7.62 NATO blanks appeared to be made from a 30.06 case which had the long neck sized down to approximate a 7.62(.308) cartridge.

None of these procedures resulted in case damage such as split necks, etc. No annealing was done.

haynk

[UBER7MM]

That sort of rechambering makes more sense to me, but mine is not that way. If it had been that way, I would have been able to chamber a piece of .30-06 brass. I tried it, but the bolt would not rotate, so it wasn't fully chambering.

Chambering up 7.7mm '06 and 8mm'06 were a lot after WWII to war trophies when 30'06 ammo was readily available (and until the bolt surplus rifles dried up and or factory rifles became plentiful.) You'll see published loads for the 8mm'06 in the Speer manuals.

Enjoy,

[paul edward]

I don't know anything about current blank manufacture. I do know that back in the 60's 7.62 NATO blanks appeared to be made from a 30.06 case which had the long neck sized down to approximate a 7.62(.308) cartridge.
haynk

In 1964 I inherited a few thousand rounds of 7.62mm WCC63 blanks, in linked belts. These were made specifically as 7.62 NATO blanks. They have 7.62 NATO extractor grooves, but are longer than .30/06 and have a double neck serving in place of a bullet. I made a few .30/06 cases from them, but it is a lot of work requiring annealing, resizing just enough to fire form, and then they need their thick necks reamed. Eventually traded most of them for once fired brass.