A tale of powder coat and Lil'Gun

[BubbaJon]

So a while back I bought some 123 gr .309 powder coated boolits from Lucky 13 as they had free shipping and a discount. I wanted to try them out in my 300 BLK.
So I loaded up a few 10 packs for testing using various powders, went out to test them and I had a round loaded with the Lee 155 2R pop a primer, locked the bolt back and brought the day to an end.
A couple weeks later I went to go back out after figgering out what happened and I found I'd forgot to put the charge of Lil Gun that I used on one of the 10 packs. So I pulled them to load again right. I discovered the base of the boolits had Lil' Gun stuck hard to the powder coat. I rubbed it off and the powder coat came off like chewing gum!
So I called Lucky 13 and he said he'd never heard of such and said he'd check it out. Says he uses standard stuff from Powder By The Pound. The Zombie 13 boolits coating is kind of thin looking and have a matte finish.
So I was chatting with the guys on Marlin Owners and the topic generated a lot of interest as to whether Lil' Gun has any kind of potent solvents - so I agreed to run a test. I had some OD Green powder coat from PBTP on some 158gr SWC 38 SPC boolits. I put one of each in the two "aromatic" powders I use - Lil' Gun and 1680.
After one week in a hot Texas garage the Lil' Gun has again attacked the Zombie 13 boolits and somewhat on my glossy OD green boolit (two boolits on left). There was more sticking when I pulled it out but came off when I rubbed it to see how gooey the coating was. It wasn't gooey like the Zombie 13 but it was more "rubbery" feeling. The two boolits on the right were in 1680 had no effect.
Any of y'all have anything like this happen?

148986

[RED333]

Well I do not use Lil' Gun but you got me thinking.
I will pull a few that I have loaded with Titegroup, 296, 4350 and W846.
Will report back in a few days.

[bangerjim]

I just posted a detail listing about different powders potentially reacting with PC.

TiteGroup seems to be the worst. ETR7 seems to be the least reactive.

Check out the post.

Bottom line........who cares. PC offers no protection of the base....neither does grease! So what if a little powder sticks? The driving band tops are not bothered at all.

banger

[BubbaJon]

I just posted a detail listing about different powders potentially reacting with PC.

TiteGroup seems to be the worst. ETR7 seems to be the least reactive.

Check out the post.

Bottom line........who cares. PC offers no protection of the base....neither does grease! So what if a little powder sticks? The driving band tops are not bothered at all.

banger
A lot of folks use powder coat so they can run the boolits faster with no gas check.
If the PC get's all gooey then it could expose the base and cause cutting - which means leading.
Then there's the potential of the reaction having some nasty byproducts - like maybe detonation instead of deflagration.

[dougader]

Interesting, to say the least.

[gpidaho]

BubbaJ: Just not true, powder coat is useless as a gas check and YOU DON"T NEED POWDER COAT ON THE BASE The driving bands are the ONLY place PC is needed. I've shot hundreds of boolits with NO coat on base or nose without leading of any sort.

[Greg S]

Leave littlegun in a powder measure for two weeks and it'll start to do the same thing on a *** ess Warren or a Spolar. It will also discolor a RCBS Uniflow.

[Vinne]

That sounds awful. What will that stuff do to your gun after a range outing.

[Motor]

BubbaJ: Just not true, powder coat is useless as a gas check and YOU DON"T NEED POWDER COAT ON THE BASE The driving bands are the ONLY place PC is needed. I've shot hundreds of boolits with NO coat on base or nose without leading of any sort.

This is dead on correct. A gas check dosn't protect the base either. At least that's not it's purpose. If you could make gas checks that were open on the bottom they would work just the same. The gas check material prevents gas pressure from blowing by the the boolits. If they were rings instead of cups they would still do the job.

I have seen some gun powders react with plastic. It wouldn't surprise me if it would react to powder coating.

It could be a real issue with bottle neck cartridges where the boolits seat down below the case neck. My 7.5x54Mas falls into this zone. I will have to test my powder coating with 2400 and see if it reacts.

I agree with banger jim that in a straight wall case its really a non issue.

Motor

[44man]

That is right, I have installed GC's on non GC boolits by punching a hole in them and setting them in the mold to pour through, worked fine.

[dudel]

This is dead on correct. A gas check dosn't protect the base either. At least that's not it's purpose. If you could make gas checks that were open on the bottom they would work just the same. The gas check material prevents gas pressure from blowing by the the boolits. If they were rings instead of cups they would still do the job.

Motor

Spot on. There was once a gas check made from zinc washers. Jim Harvey invented the Pro-Tex Bor gas checks. You loaded them into the moulds, then cast. IIRC, the washers looked like they were held on by a lead rivet. The idea appeared sound; just slowed casting down as you had to place the washers in the mould (while loosing heat), before filling with alloy. May have saved time when you consider affixing traditional gas checks takes some time as well.

http://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?25471-Need-info-on-Harvey-Protxbore-moulds

[Markbo]

Well I do not use Lil' Gun but you got me thinking.
I will pull a few that I have loaded with Titegroup, 296, 4350 and W846.
Will report back in a few days.


Tag for update

[Maximumbob54]

That sounds awful. What will that stuff do to your gun after a range outing.

Not a thing or I would have a couple of ruined AR's and several handguns. I look at this more as a good to know than an alert.

[yovinny]

I have 4 rcbs uniflow's on the bench and left one setup for the hornet and full of lilgun once, while developing loads.
About 6 months later I cleaned it out to switch powders and found the lilgun had eaten up the inside of the plastic hopper...It had the appearance and feel of like a 36 grit sanding disc.

[bangerjim]

A lot of folks use powder coat so they can run the boolits faster with no gas check.
If the PC get's all gooey then it could expose the base and cause cutting - which means leading.
Then there's the potential of the reaction having some nasty byproducts - like maybe detonation instead of deflagration.

WRONG. If anyone is using PC as a replacement for a GC (where a GC is needed) they seriously misunderstand what PC and GC's do.

Gun powder "softening" PC on the base of a BBDT boolit will not hurt or degrade anything we do here.

Coat 'em, load 'em, shoot 'em. GC 'em if technically called for by the load.

You would never assume grease on the base of a boolit prevents cutting, right? Why would you expect PC (a mere substitute for grease) to offer any protection????????????????????

If a load is sonic and needs a GC per the velocity, use one, and do not rely on PC on the base to do anything.

[bangerjim]

That sounds awful. What will that stuff do to your gun after a range outing.

You need to read, read, read on here about the myths and worries of PC. All tales of gun damage have been disproven. Even the dreaded matte black does no harm to your guns, That is my standard and I use it all the time.

After many THOUSANDS of PC rounds thru MANY guns and MANY range trips over the past 2+ years, I have no wear, no leading and clean-up is a couple swipes with a patch. I could never approach that performance with grease or FMJ's! And in the past I tried.

banger

[Jupiter7]

Not a thing or I would have a couple of ruined AR's and several handguns. I look at this more as a good to know than an alert.

I burned up a pistol length gas tube in an AR using lil gun. Took around 8k rounds of 15+grs under lee312-155 in 300blk to erode the gas tube at gas port and allow gas seepage, turned said gun into a single shot. A1680 and h110 have not had same results in same gun. Barrel was not damaged though.

[Maximumbob54]

I burned up a pistol length gas tube in an AR using lil gun. Took around 8k rounds of 15+grs under lee312-155 in 300blk to erode the gas tube at gas port and allow gas seepage, turned said gun into a single shot. A1680 and h110 have not had same results in same gun. Barrel was not damaged though.

Interesting and good to know for sure but this is about the coating and not the powder. Knowing that lil gun does burn hot enough to ruin a gas tube is info enough to keep in mind but the coating does nothing I've found yet. And the barrel will be eaten up with use anyways which Lucky Gunner was kind enough to plow through a bunch of ammo in several AR's and then cut the barrel open to prove. I've run some gas checked Klass Koted and HF gloss red and both were with minimal charges of IMR 3031 but I never could dial either one in because I was trying hard to cheat and not use a hard enough alloy or try going back and heat treating after coatings. But now I have a .300 BLK upper to play with and that opens a bunch of new coatings testing on various weights of bullets with different velocities.

[BubbaJon]

Not a thing or I would have a couple of ruined AR's and several handguns. I look at this more as a good to know than an alert.
Exactly - I love the stuff. But I won't be loading any 300 BLK shelf ammo with PC and Lil' Gun.

[BubbaJon]

WRONG. If anyone is using PC as a replacement for a GC (where a GC is needed) they seriously misunderstand what PC and GC's do.

Gun powder "softening" PC on the base of a BBDT boolit will not hurt or degrade anything we do here.

Coat 'em, load 'em, shoot 'em. GC 'em if technically called for by the load.

You would never assume grease on the base of a boolit prevents cutting, right? Why would you expect PC (a mere substitute for grease) to offer any protection????????????????????

If a load is sonic and needs a GC per the velocity, use one, and do not rely on PC on the base to do anything.
I'm just gonna disagree - the PC is used as a substitute jacket so you don't have to lube it, but tests have shown that the flame front doesn't affect it so it makes sense it would prevent flame cutting. But hey - we load 'em we shoot 'em. I push PC boolits fast as jacketed all the time with no ill effects. Maybe it's one of those YMMV thangs.