Leading problem, too soft BHN?

[Jlamont2020]

I've been shooting my MiHec 359-125 HPs in front of 3.8gr on HP-38 at 1.085" OAL for a little bit now. The speed is averaging ~1040fps and I seem to be getting terrible leading in my pistols.

I'm casting 20:1 air-cooled which should be a BHN of 12. I've read tons of data of people pushing 20:1 up to 1500fps without leading, so I'm confused on what I'm doin' wrong. My smallest pistol slugged at .355, the largest at .359, and the carbine at .359. I'm sizing them down to .358 so in theory, they should be fine. I cast pure lead bullets for my air rifle so I prefer to make my own alloys over mixing with WW, since I buy pure lead anyways. Though I'm at a loss at why I'm leading so badly. The load is mid-range, the speed is not overly fast or slow, the BHN is on the softer side (but not overly so for the speed), and my boolits are reasonably sized for the barrels.

I'm thinkin' I'm going to try water quenching the next 300-400 boolits to increase the BHN slightly. From what I've read it should go to about 15 considering there's no antimony in a 20:1 alloy.

I know eventually playing with all the factors I'll figure out the cause and correct it, though I'll take suggestions. That being said at the moment I'm not looking to change to a WW alloy.

This is from my father's Kahr CW9 after about 300rds. (I know, terrible photo)

http://images.tapatalk-cdn.com/15/09/13/86af4bad07f65e2509285c0eeb3e906a.jpg

[Jlamont2020]

Also, this particular batch had been aged about 2 months (usually it's closer to about 3 weeks)

[Yodogsandman]

!. Non antimonial bullets won't age harden or heat treat.

2. 20:1 is only about 8 BHN

3. You can't water quench bullets that don't have antimony in them and expect them to increase BHN.

4. 9MM is a high pressure round, those shooting to 1500FPS with 20:1 alloy are using low pressure rounds, typically black powder.

5. Each pistol or rifle needs to be sized specifically for it's own chamber.

Check this site for some great info...

http://www.lasc.us/ArticleIndex.htm

[RobS]

Good info. above.

Another issue that occurs is that the 9MM case is a short, strong case. A soft boolit seated in 9MM cases can often time swage down to a smaller diameter than what it was prior to being loaded.

I would measure a boolit before, load a dummy round, then pull a boolit and measure it. I bet the base of your boolit has been swaged down by the case.

As been stated a .358 boolit in a .359 barrel can cause leading and also inaccuracy.

[RobS]

Velocity is not the determining factor to what the hardness of a boolit should/could be for accuracy and a clean (no leading) barrel. Considerations to pressure, barrel twist rate, chamber throat, barrel condition, powder selection and reloading practices are a few other variables to successfully shooting cast boolits.

[Petrol & Powder]

Posts #3 & #4 are spot on and I'll add my $0.02.
9mm gives me fits with cast bullets when I try to cast & load for more than one gun. As you've found out, 9mm barrel diameters are all over the map. I can get cast bullets to work beautifully in ONE pistol when I match the load to that one gun but when I add another gun to the line up I have problems.
Fit is critical and damn hard to achieve when the barrels are not a uniform diameter.

[Jlamont2020]

Good information so far, but no real recommendations.

As much as I dont want to keep 2 different alloys, is using a different alloy thw best thing to do. I originally settled on 20:1 as it was a recommended Elmer Keith alloy for cast HPs in .357, and .38.

Well the sizing issue makes sense for the .359 carbine (and I figured that may happen since it's undersized) but for the .355 pistols .358 shouldn't be a size issue right? I'm trying to have semi-reliable expansion with HPs. So what was be a good recommendation, resize to .357 at a 50% WW 50% Pb? I love the expansion I get, but the constant cleaning is a bit annoying.

[bangerjim]

Yes, you are assuming several things that are probably leading you astray.


And...........you NEED to seriously consider switching to a COWW Sb style alloy mix! You can easily make you own, now that WW's are becoming hard to find. I have been doing it for over 2 years after most WW's are now Zn and Fe.

Read and re-read Yodog's post above. Sums it up well. I "shoot" for ~0.002 over slugged bore size.

I would NEVER attempt to do what you are attempting without knowing the bore of each gun, using anything lower than 12 Bhn (tested, not guessed at by %) and........I powder coat everything. That does let you shoot softer without smoke and leading. Use PC (NOT quenching) on your non-Sb mixes. I cast 9-12 for all my subsonic rounds + PC.

Good luck!

bangerjim

[bangerjim]

Good information so far, but no real recommendations.

As much as I dont want to keep 2 different alloys, is using a different alloy thw best thing to do. I originally settled on 20:1 as it was a recommended Elmer Keith alloy for cast HPs in .357, and .38.

Well the sizing issue makes sense for the .359 carbine (and I figured that may happen since it's undersized) but for the .355 pistols .358 shouldn't be a size issue right? I'm trying to have semi-reliable expansion with HPs. So what was be a good recommendation, resize to .357 at a 50% WW 50% Pb? I love the expansion I get, but the constant cleaning is a bit annoying.

You've got some very good recommendations!

If you want to eliminate leading (with proper sized boolits to your bore) use PC. Over the past 2+ years I and many other on here have developed the PC processes to a science. I and many hundreds (if not thousands) have eliminated leading 100% and still shoot softer alloys.

bangerjim

[Love Life]

You can always solve your problem with this: http://www.grafs.com/retail/catalog/product/productId/13838

I would slug your father's gun's barrel and size to that barrel. I would also switch to WW alloy or something similar and water drop. Take a look at your lube as well, as softer lubes have always worked better for me in the 9mm than the hard as crayon lubes. Then there is the real possibility that your bullets are being swaged by your brass.

Many things going wrong here and you need to eliminate one variable at a time. I would utilize the scientific method.

[Petrol & Powder]

What do you mean, "...no real recommendations"?

1. slug your barrels and size your bullets to each gun accordingly
2. it is very possible that the casing is sizing the bullet down. Disassemble a completed round and measure the bullet diameter. I'd be willing to bet the bullet is smaller than you think.
3. After you've solved the bullet diameter issue, look at going to a softer lube

Love Life is right on the money, eliminate one variable at a time.

[Jlamont2020]

"No real recommendations" was a poor way to conveying my thoughts. I got a lot of information quickly show ing me what was wrong, but was looking more for a guide of what I should try out first to correct the problem. (Which some people have now posted)

I've slugged all my barrels (and my father's) before I started casting I know there was no "do all" but I attempted (failed) at trying to resize cast to .358 in hopes of satisfying the .355 and .359 barrels I use.

And yes, I just measured some of my pulled boolits and they seem to average .354 after being seated.

Looks like despite my desire for simplicity, I'm going to have to add extra steps to my powder loads. (Either powder coating or alloying), as well as size 2 different diameters for the .355 barrels and the .359 barrels.

[williamwaco]

Your alloy is plenty hard.
You do not need two alloys.
You may need two different loads.

Reread your post. If you are using .358 bullets in a .359 bore it is not likely to "be fine".

You do not mention your lube. Lube is more critical in the 9mm than any other handgun cartridge I have ever loaded.

The 9mm is the most prone to leading of any handgun cartridge I have ever loaded.
Fit and Lube are the most critical components. MUCH more important than alloy or hardness.

I strive for .002 to .003 over grove diameter. For me, that is .357 to .358.
I cast anything (alloy) I have available from BNH 10 to 13. Occasionally bur rarely BNH 14 to 15.

Fit is CRITICAL. Not your sizing diameter but your diameter when the pin hits the primer.
Pull a bullet from cases of different head stamps.
If you are worried about pulling a bullet from a live round, load a dummy. Load it exactly like your normal procedure but omit primer and powder.
You are very likely to find that some of them are significantly smaller than you thought.
The 9mm cases vary significantly in wall thickness and some will size your bullet down to .349 to .350 during the seating operation.

Oh yes. Did I mention that fit is critical.

The popular hard lubes do not work well in the 9mm ( for me). I like LLA or Lyman 50/50. The custom mixtures mentioned frequently here are excellent. I don't use them because I am too lazy to mix them.

If you have a hard lube you can sometimes get it to work by increasing your powder charge to maximum. I don't recommend that so I just don't use the hard lubes.

The perfect storm for leading is a hard, undersized bullet with a hard lube. ( Don't go there. )

If you are determined to make one load fit all guns. make a load that works with the .359 bore. Then if the overall cartridge diameter is small enough to enter the chambers of the others, it will probably work in the others too. BUT it must fit easily and loosely. Not just crammed in.

[Love Life]

Your bullets are getting swaged down and creating an issue of being to small. I'd start there to ensure your bullet is the correct size when it enters the barrel in the 1st place. Fix that and:


Now that you've established that your bullet is the correct size for your barrel (both as sized, and when leaving the brass) go fire some and see what happens.

Still got leading? No biggie. You've eliminated undersized issues, now you can change one of two things (only one at a time).
A) Lube or
B) Alloy

I'd tray a new lube first. Something soft. I prefer speed green or Lotak hard from the Bullshop.

Load some, and go shoot. Still issues? Well, now try the other thing and repeat.

Somewhere along the line will be your answer.

[RobS]

One other thing a person can do is get an expander plug .001 under the boolit diameter that will expand the case to the depth of the seated round. This is an approach often used in the reloading process when assembling rounds with softer BHN boolits.

[Larry Gibson]

As mentioned; what lube are you using?

Also as mentioned your BHN numbers are too high for 20:1 alloy. Also as mentioned WQing will not harden that alloy.

Larry Gibson

[jonp]

!. Non antimonial bullets won't age harden or heat treat.

2. 20:1 is only about 8 BHN

3. You can't water quench bullets that don't have antimony in them and expect them to increase BHN.

4. 9MM is a high pressure round, those shooting to 1500FPS with 20:1 alloy are using low pressure rounds, typically black powder.

5. Each pistol or rifle needs to be sized specifically for it's own chamber.

Check this site for some great info...

http://www.lasc.us/ArticleIndex.htm
Im getting 10bhn with my 20:1 using a lee hardness tester

[jonp]

Both of my Kahr CW45's have given me such fits ive about abandoned cast in them and switched to plated or jwords.

[Petrol & Powder]

If your pulled bullets measure .354" I'd say there's your problem.

[guncheese]

If your pulled bullets measure .354" I'd say there's your problem.


ding ding
i run pretty soft alloy PC
but if it gets squished it gets squished
a flame cut is a flame cut
i know this doesnt give direct answers, but it does give a heading to plot a course for
https://plus.google.com/u/0/collection/E8BPf
there are 12 or 13 pix in that collection that will show you what is going on

[Motor]

If you want to simplify things get your alloy up to 15bhn and stop shooting .358" boolits in a .359" bore.

The harder alloy will fix your swaging in case problem as well as your pressure cutting that is causing your leading. Is there other ways, sure there is, like larger expander for your brass plus a few others but getting your alloy up to 15bhn may be the easiest way.

I have recently started powder coating and since doing so I can now shoot 12bhn in my 9mms. I still size all my 9mms .358" though and my barrel is .355"

If you use mostly close to pure lead I suggest you find some linotype. It works great for me to increase my alloy hardness.

Oh forgot to mention, lead/linotype alloy responds well to water quenching to increase hardness.

Motor

[Petrol & Powder]

The OP stated in post #12 that his bullets were .354"

"And yes, I just measured some of my pulled boolits and they seem to average .354 after being seated..."

So he's shooting .354" bullets in bores up to .359".
I don't think he needs to do anything with alloy or lube until he corrects that glaring issue.

[Cherokee]

thanks for posting that link...good info. OP needs harder bullets or larger expander to keep the size correct after seating the bullet.

[Motor]

The OP stated in post #12 that his bullets were .354"

"And yes, I just measured some of my pulled boolits and they seem to average .354 after being seated..."

So he's shooting .354" bullets in bores up to .359".
I don't think he needs to do anything with alloy or lube until he corrects that glaring issue.

His boolits are being sized down during seating. If he makes his alloy 15bhn his boolits will be hard enough to retain their diameter when seated.

Motor

[GabbyM]

9mm brass is tough stuff. Even 2:6:92 alloy at BHN #15 is readily swaged from case necks that are not properly expanded to -.002" to -.001" under boolit diameter. After that you need to check that your expander is reaching deep enough for your bullet seat depth. Then you need to ensure the taper crimp die is not crushing your bullets. In my experience there is only one eighth to one quarter turn of adjustment from just right to destroyed.

[Dragonheart]

Or you could just powder coat your bullets and forget it. I shoot 9mm powder coated bullets out of 14 different 9mm handguns, some with polygonal rifling, all with no leading issues at all. My bullets are cast from range lead, no exotic mix, and velocities up to 1300 FPS. I have loads that will group 1-1/2" at 25 yards out of a Ransom Rest.

[JeffG]

Your alloy is plenty hard.
You do not need two alloys.
You may need two different loads.

Reread your post. If you are using .358 bullets in a .359 bore it is not likely to "be fine".

You do not mention your lube. Lube is more critical in the 9mm than any other handgun cartridge I have ever loaded.

The 9mm is the most prone to leading of any handgun cartridge I have ever loaded.
Fit and Lube are the most critical components. MUCH more important than alloy or hardness.

I strive for .002 to .003 over grove diameter. For me, that is .357 to .358.
I cast anything (alloy) I have available from BNH 10 to 13. Occasionally bur rarely BNH 14 to 15.

Fit is CRITICAL. Not your sizing diameter but your diameter when the pin hits the primer.
Pull a bullet from cases of different head stamps.
If you are worried about pulling a bullet from a live round, load a dummy. Load it exactly like your normal procedure but omit primer and powder.
You are very likely to find that some of them are significantly smaller than you thought.
The 9mm cases vary significantly in wall thickness and some will size your bullet down to .349 to .350 during the seating operation.

Oh yes. Did I mention that fit is critical.

The popular hard lubes do not work well in the 9mm ( for me). I like LLA or Lyman 50/50. The custom mixtures mentioned frequently here are excellent. I don't use them because I am too lazy to mix them.

If you have a hard lube you can sometimes get it to work by increasing your powder charge to maximum. I don't recommend that so I just don't use the hard lubes.

The perfect storm for leading is a hard, undersized bullet with a hard lube. ( Don't go there. )

If you are determined to make one load fit all guns. make a load that works with the .359 bore. Then if the overall cartridge diameter is small enough to enter the chambers of the others, it will probably work in the others too. BUT it must fit easily and loosely. Not just crammed in.

This says it all^^^^^

[Jlamont2020]

Williamwaco/larry Gibson - I've been using the squirt-n-shake lee alox. I haven't sprung the money for a lube-sizer yet, and got an extra bottle of alox free.

Love Life/Rob S./gun cheese - I've been doing some browsing of the forums and apparently 9mm is really bad about swaging the boolit down almost regardless of BHN. I see several people have solved this with a lyman M expander. I bought a RCBS PTX die and linkage a few months ago along with a pro 2000 that's all still in the box. So whenever I do upgrade beyond my single hopefully I can get the case activated linkage to work with the lyman M expander.

Dragonheart - I'll probably try powder coating as well. Looks like $5 for the red harbor freight shake-n-bake powder. Seems easy enough to try. Plus I might be able to keep my alloy after a better expander and PC.

Thanks everyone for pointing out some of the wrong info I got browsing the web, and some of the misunderstandings I've had.

[Dragonheart]

Williamwaco/larry Gibson - I've been using the squirt-n-shake lee alox. I haven't sprung the money for a lube-sizer yet, and got an extra bottle of alox free.

Love Life/Rob S./gun cheese - I've been doing some browsing of the forums and apparently 9mm is really bad about swaging the boolit down almost regardless of BHN. I see several people have solved this with a lyman M expander. I bought a RCBS PTX die and linkage a few months ago along with a pro 2000 that's all still in the box. So whenever I do upgrade beyond my single hopefully I can get the case activated linkage to work with the lyman M expander.

Dragonheart - I'll probably try powder coating as well. Looks like $5 for the red harbor freight shake-n-bake powder. Seems easy enough to try. Plus I might be able to keep my alloy after a better expander and PC.

Thanks everyone for pointing out some of the wrong info I got browsing the web, and some of the misunderstandings I've had.

If you give powder coating a try you will find the inexpensive Lee push through sizing die the best solution. The PC bullets slide through with little effort unless your coating is just too heavy, but that typically not a problem. A couple of sprays of liquid case lube over the bullets makes the job even easier.

[Jlamont2020]

The lee push throughs are what I have now. Well .300, .356 and .358 anyways. How will those help with PC? I usually swab a bit of alox on the inside of the push through die every session to help 'em through.

[Dragonheart]

Powder Coating provides all the lubricant you need, so no more sticky mess. PC is a very hard super slick coating that acts like a jacketed bullet. It lets the bullet slide through your sizing die just like it does down your gun barrel. The PC stays intact on the bullet like a jacket, so you don't have leading in the barrel or copper fouling, just powder fouling, which is easy to clean. When I use the Lee die no lubricant is needed just push the bullet through, but to make the process even easier I sometimes spray the bullets first with liquid case lube, which I make by mixing one part lanolin to 12 parts 99% alcohol. The alcohol evaporates immediately leaving a thin film of lanolin. There are better quality powders than Harbor Freight, but their red is a cheap way to try it out. I personally will never go back to lube as powder coating does everything I need. If you have more questions just ask or check out the threads under "Coatings".

[Motor]

You don't need any lube to size a powder coated boolit. I size my 9mms with my .358" Lee push through size die. In fact I recommend that you clean the inside of your die so there is no A-Lox left in it before sizing your powder coated boolits.

Recently I found that I can even size bare cast boolits (that is absolutely no lube) with my Lee push through size dies and get perfect results without any problems.

I have also found that the force needed to size a powder coated boolit is directly related to how hard the alloy is and really is not effected by the powder coating. It actually feels like the powder coated boolits size with less force than when I used A-Lox.

Motor

[Dragonheart]

Okay, you guys got me. I really don't know how hard it is to size bullets anymore, since all I do is flick my wrist and crank out well over 2K an hour, https://youtu.be/t-YWK__2BAc If I need more umph for bulge busting 45 cases I just increase the air pressure a little. But back when I did sized like everybody else the push through powder coated bullets sized easy. Motor is right even uncoated lead with no lubricant pushes through with no problems. I know because I have tried gas checks both ways by putting the check on, sizing and tumble powder coating; all the checks stay on. And powder coating then setting the check and sizing, which looks a little prettier, since the check stands out from the colored bullet.

[Jlamont2020]

Now that is slick! I'll be spoiled enough when I unbox and setup my progressive, but that is darn neat.

[Green Monster]

What type of dies are you using in particular the crimp die? Should be using a taper crimp that only removes any flare from the powder& seating stages. Also if you are using a lee fcd ive found that can cause swaging of cast boolits. I break my seating / crimping steps into two seperate steps so i can control each more precisley.

[Jlamont2020]

I'm using a Lee 4-die kit which uses the FCD (If I recall correctly) but that'll change soon as I bought all new dies for my progressive. In truth I've been dragging my feet in setting up my progressive as I know it's going to be a much more complicated setup than my single, but I just couldn't turn away the discount I got on the RCBS stuff. So Lee FCD now, but switchin' to a RCBS taper crimp/seating die combo.

[Petrol & Powder]

I know that the Lee FCD has its followers but I not one of them. In my opinion the Lee FCD is a bad idea, not trying to start a war just stating a personal opinion. I seat and crimp in separate operations and rimless cartridges that headspace on the case mouth get a taper crimp. You need enough crimp to keep the bullet in place but not much more.
Your progressive press will likely have a powder through expander on the powder die and that expander plus your taper crimp die may solve your problem.
Set your expander to flare the case mouth just enough to accept the bullet without shaving lead and set your taper crimp die just enough to take that flare out and hold the bullet. It is useful to perform those steps with a dummy round (no primer or powder) and use your pistol barrel's chamber as a cartridge gage. After you get those dies set up, pull the bullet and measure it; it's likely you will have solved your small diameter bullet problem.

[Schrag4]

I have the Lee 4-die kit in 9mm as well, but I don't bother with the FCD. If I had to guess, that's the die that's swaging down your boolits - it was for me anyway. You simply don't need it for 9mm - you can remove the flare during seating. Just make sure your dummy rounds really do have the flare removed but also the pulled boolits are not cut into by the brass. It might take a little while to set up at first (a bit of boolit pulling which can get old quick).

Oh, and another big +1 for powder coating. Some may view it as a crutch, and I may be using it as a crutch, but even if I was getting no leading whatsoever with traditional lube I would still powder coat due to at least 5 benefits I can think of off the top of my head, most of them being "no lube on my (fill in the blank)", all led by a quite significant "no smoke while shooting indoors." The only downside is the time it takes to apply, and the results are totally worth it IMO.

[Dragonheart]

I'm using a Lee 4-die kit which uses the FCD (If I recall correctly) but that'll change soon as I bought all new dies for my progressive. In truth I've been dragging my feet in setting up my progressive as I know it's going to be a much more complicated setup than my single, but I just couldn't turn away the discount I got on the RCBS stuff. So Lee FCD now, but switchin' to a RCBS taper crimp/seating die combo.

A bit of advice from a hand-loader for over 50 years. Separate the seating and crimping into individual steps as already suggested, but spend a few bucks extra and buy the Redding Micrometer seating die. This die allows you to externally adjust the seating depth in thousandths by turning a knob. The big advantage is accuracy in maintaining your OAL and if you change bullets you can write down the seating depth and go back without the trial and error of the usual screw in seating die. Also consider the Dillon dies as they will come apart for cleaning without losing there settings and they size a little further down on the case. I have used a number of dies over the years including Herters, C-H, Lee, RCBS, Redding, Dillon, Hornady, etc. and all will work, but quality does vary and some work better than others. I don't have a problem with RCBS, but I have found Dillon and Redding about as good as you can get and Dillon's lifetime warranty is no BS.

[GabbyM]

My 2 cents:
measure your expanded 9mm brass with a calipers. Check for depth of expansion vs seating depth of your bullet.
Truncated cone bullets seat deeper than round nose bullets. Most expanders don't reach deep enough. Lyman's M die does as it works with the Lyman #356402 bullet.
To make any ammo I'd consider acceptable you must sort 9mm brass by manufacture. 9mm brass varies greatly in wall thickness and taper.
Be very careful with your crimp die. The Lee FCD is famous for crushing boolits. If you have thick walled 9mm brass then you about assured to have a crushed boolit. Likewise if you have your taper crimp die set for a brand of thinner wall cases. Then run a thick taper case into it you'll crush your bullet as your die will not be set properly for that brand of brass.

Measuring tubes with calipers you get a slight error due to the flat on the blades. Don't concern yourself much with that. Comparison is what you are after. Measure wall thickness at the mouth then see how deep you can reach before the case starts tapering to thick. You will have far better luck using a brass that has straight wall to the depth of your seated bullet. I simply use the brass with a short depth to load 124gr RN cast that seats like ball ammo.

Case capacity in various brass also varies greatly with wall and web thickness. I consider it absolutely unsafe to load un sorted 9mm brass to full power. Back in the 1970's I just slopped together 124gr FMJ over 7.7 grains of Blue Dot. Then I encountered European brass that after a couple loads would barely have a head stamp left and primer pockets so loose the primers would fall out in the magazine under recoil then I'd have a round chambered with no primer. That is when I started sorting brass and tossing out most Euro military stuff. IIRC Geco was the troublesome stuff.

Using a harder alloy in attempt to use your boolit as a case expander is not the answer. For full power loads most pistols will need at least a BHN #12 alloy like straight wheel weights. I use straight 2/6/92 air cooled with a good semi soft lube. I load a 122 TC 147 FP and the old standard Magma Engineering 124gr RN.

[Petrol & Powder]

Ditto on Dragonheart's comments concerning dies. The Dillon dies are easy to clean without losing your settings. Redding stuff is top notch but expensive. RCBS is a close second and less expensive. I use an assortment of dies and have no brand loyalty but you can't go wrong with Redding or RCBS. I run Redding dies on my Dillon 550 when loading 9mm and a LOT of cartridges have been through those dies.
The Redding Micrometer seating die is a bit of overkill for pistol cartridges but it does allow one to change bullets without having to adjust the entire die body. Personally I'd rather pick one bullet and stick with it but that die does provide some flexibility if you frequently load more than one bullet type.

Seating and crimping in separate steps is key.

[Jlamont2020]

Yea, I've been running seperate seating & crimping dies, but really wanted the lockout for my progressive. Just went and double checked. The dies I bought were the RCBS lockout, Redding Sizing, RCBS Taper/ C Seater, RCBS PTX, and RCBS bullet feed (which is still on backorder). I did also buy a mirror kit from my LGS (don't remember brand, but it mounts with a copper rod that goes around a die) so I could remove the lockout if I was feeling daring, but not having run a progressive before I like the fall back. I considered running the crimp on my single stage, but untimately decided to use that for my universal decapper since I wet tumble. If only the new rock chucker 7 (or whatever RCBS called the new 7 station press) used the APS strips I like, I would have bought that. I'm already looking at buying a Lyman M die for expanding, is there anything else with my progressive setup that requires attention?

[Schrag4]

...Seating and crimping in separate steps is key.

Maybe I missed where this conversation is going, but his problem wasn't whether or not he's seating and crimping in separate steps (the OP already was, as we all know). At the risk of sounding incredibly cheap, why shouldn't the OP try seating and crimping in the same step, as a change, with the dies he already has? I have the same dies as the OP and that's what I do. The main difference that I know of is that I PC my boolits, and I size them a bit smaller than he does. There may be other wild differences too, such as seating depth (shouldn't matter, right?) and boolit design, and I admit that those factors might prove that he needs a separate die (not the FCD) to crimp. If he can remove flare without crushing the boolits with his seating die, isn't it at least worth trying before ordering anything else and waiting for it to arrive? He could do that right now and have an answer in 30 minutes.

[Motor]

I've been seating and crimping in one step for 30 years without any problems. I typically can set it up in one try without needing any further adjustment. If you are loading on a progressive press then sure seat and crimp in 2 steps you have to pull the handle anyway.

Anyone who has trouble seating and crimping in one step is simply does not have everything set up properly. This includes case preparation. If you are shaving boolits you really have something out of whack especially with taper crimp where all your supposed to be doing is removing the mouth flair.

The Lee pistol FCD has its place. Loading .358" boolits in 9mm is not one of them or loading oversize boolits into any caliber. The post sizing ring can cause you problems with oversize boolits and can destroy your neck tension. You can't afford to lose your neck tension in any cartridge especially not one that basically relies 100% on it to hold the boolits like a taper crimped auto loader.

Motor

[popper]

IMHO, 9 is hardest to load cast. Tapered case, medium pressure, tough case, etc. Even too large can cause leading due to sharp edge at throat. Gets worse with faster powders. Then most moulds are RN so you have to get a good seater plug to get them straight. I couldn't get 20:1 to work in 40SW either, so put some Sb in it, hardball, superhard, lino, anything.

[Dragonheart]

Yes, you can seat & crimp in one step like I had to do so many years ago, but I do load several bullet configurations depending on what I want to load to do, I match the bullet to the gun, as I shoot for accuracy. It is also a lot easier for a new handloader to set up than an all in one operation.
As far as just seating a bullet there is a tremendous difference in accuracy by changing the OAL. I recently demonstrated this to a new IDPA shooter using a Ransom Rest and using his same load out of his Glock, just changing the OAL of his load. His 10 shot group size went from 7" to 3 ", so the OAL can make a big difference, just ask any bench rest rifle shooter. The same attention to detail will make a handgun load more accurate. So, I guess it is what you want to get out of handloading, for me it is to know that if I am off it's not the gun or the load.

[Tom_in_AZ]

Most likely sized incorrectly

[Springfield0612]

http://noebulletmolds.com/NV/product_info.php?cPath=91&products_id=1205&osCsid=9i6493fsk2esucjgtmbmhaokj1. Powder through expander that will work from .356-.360

http://www.titanreloading.com/lee-se1699-pm-exp-plug-38-sw?filter_name=38%20s
This is a cheaper solution that will open up your casees to .360 but that is all you get. This is what I use as all my 9mm and .380's sized out at .358. So my bullets drop at .359 and with PC I size to .360. If using a Lee seat and crimp die ensure that it is correctly setup IAW the directions. If you dont set your seating depth before you turn the die down to add a LITTLE crimp (remove belling at the mouth) You will over crimp and swage your bullets. Using the above kept me from loosing my mind with shooting cast in 9mm and .380 and go back to plated or J words.) Good luck!

[dudel]

Both of my Kahr CW45's have given me such fits ive about abandoned cast in them and switched to plated or jwords.

Same thing with my Kahr CW9. There may be a 9mm mold that it likes; but I've not found it (and I've stopped looking). It likes plated just fine.

OP: One gun is a Kahr, what's the other one? A Glock perhaps?

[dudel]

The lee push throughs are what I have now. Well .300, .356 and .358 anyways. How will those help with PC? I usually swab a bit of alox on the inside of the push through die every session to help 'em through.

Are you lubing them up again after you use the Lee push through sizer? The sizer takes the alox off the bearing surfaces.

[Jlamont2020]

dudel, I've been a bit buay with things so I haven't had time to cast or reload (or go shootin' for thag matter) but I've powder coated my last batch of boolits and loaded them a few weeks back. I'm probably going to try that next as it's closest to the "do-all" 9mm ammo I'm looking for. It wont be great in accuracy, but neither is undersized jacketed ammo.
The guns I was shooting my 9mm cast loads in last were:
Kahr CM9
Kahr CW9
Beretta 92A1
and Beretta CX4

Also, I was lubing them after sizing them, I would put a bit of lube in the inside of the sizer to help them through.

[Alan in Vermont]

I see several people have solved this with a lyman M expander. I bought a RCBS PTX die and linkage a few months ago along with a pro 2000 that's all still in the box. So whenever I do upgrade beyond my single hopefully I can get the case activated linkage to work with the lyman M expander.



The M die will work with the Pro-2000, it needs to be set up in the primer seating station like a conventional expander die.

Lose the Lee FCD!! Way too likely to swage your bullets into junk than get a decent crimping operation. After seeing one of those *** swage boolits in 45 ACP, with resulting leading and the leading go away instantly on the return to a regular crimp die I am doubly sure none will ever grace my loading bench.

Don't get in a big yank to get the Pro-2000 in operation. Figure out what is wrong with single stage operations, where you can watch/measure/confirm every step as you go along. At this point all a progressive will do is permit you to make a bunch of bad ammunition,,,,,,, but you will be able to do it very rapidly.

I'm not anti-progressive tooling, I own, and generally enjoy, my Pro-2000. After about 40 years loading single stage I about went nuts trying to deal with all the little nuances a progressive brings to the loading bench.

[MtGun44]

Sigh. I wish I had a dollar for every thread on "why is my 9mm leading and the
boolits hitting sideways". :bigsmyl2:

It would be really helpful to spend some time in the Classics and Stickies section.

This should help.

http://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?121737-Setting-up-for-boolits-in-a-new-9mm

Regardless of the tons of "official BS" out there in the shooting world, BHN is not a
primary issue in leading, maybe 4th on the list or lower.

"Fit is king", a great comment by an old member, is the key. Too small and usually too
hard are the most common culprits, not too soft.

Bill

[Dragonheart]

Hi Bill,

You hit the nail on the head. So many want one shoe to fit all feet and it just doesn't work if accuracy is your goal.

[Digital Dan]

One shoe can fit all feet if it's the right shoe. By that I mean consistent proven methodology.

Read quite a bit before I started casting, asked questions and read some more. Fit/Alloy/Load is a good part of the equation. Been at it for about 6 years, casting and shooting everything from a Hornet to .50 cal bench guns, pure lead to 50/50 lino/WW and have yet to lead a barrel. 700-2200 fps +/-.

Fit is important. Debate can be had about Groove to .001-.002" over groove, but under groove is a non-starter.
Alloy - .22 RF ammo has a BHN of around 7-8 for most brands. They operate at a peak pressure in the 26-27 KPSI range. They use copper wash or wax for lube. -Hint-
Load - A fella can do pretty much whatever he wants with lead if he pays attention to the first 2 items above.

Stuff I've loaded lead in:

.22 Hornet
.25-20 Win.
.25-20 SS
7x57
.30-30
.358 Win.
.357 Mag
.38 Spcl
.38-55 Win
.38 picket rifle
.40-.38-55
.40 WA BP bench rifle
.416 Rigby
.44 Mag
.45-70
.50 BP bench rifle

After all that, I still can't make 'em lead. On Halloween eve I lament the things I've not missed out on in life, such as leaded barrels from factory ammo.

[Dragonheart]

Yes, consistent proven methodology starts by knowing what size your barrel is and at what point a particular bullet touches the lands, which I think is probably just two of the items missing in a one size fits all approach.

[old beekeeper]

There is a quote I never forget when loading, my wife explained it this way, "No matter what anybody says, size IS important."

And she is right. I learned it the hard with Marlins microgrove barrells. Once I poured oversized bullets, sized them a thousand or two over the barrel size, all my leading problems went away even with a BHN of around 6 or 7. I use nothing but Alox for lube and have no troubles unless you get up into the hot velocities then all bets are off. I have shot some pure lead 38's out of my Ruber Security Six with no lube and as long as they were running about 850 I did not get leading after about 300 rounds. Size is important. Especially in shooting.

Beekeeper