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EMC45
04-03-2008, 02:50 PM
I am on the McMaster Carr site and was curious about what drill rod would be better for dies, W1 Water quench, or O1 Oil quench? There is a few dollar difference in ft pricing, so no big deal. Me and Lumpie talked about this over the phone one night and I kinda forgot what he had told me[smilie=1:.

JSnover
04-03-2008, 03:21 PM
I'm sure someone here has a better answer but as I remember, they're almost interchangeable. Water-quenching will produce a higher hardness (for cutting tools, let's say) while oil-quenching will produce a tougher part; still very hard, but less likely to crack or break so you may not need to stress-relieve afterwards. For max hardness with the simpler (less expensive steels), get the one with the higher carbon content.

bohica2xo
04-03-2008, 04:03 PM
The quenching medium has a lot to do with the distortion you are likely to see after heat treatment.

Water hardening steels see a hell of a shock during quenching, and distort the most.

Oil hardening steels distort less, but must be quenched in the right oil @ the specified temperature.

Air Hardening steels have the lowest distortion, and are quenched with an air blast (not by just letting them cool!).

Any steel must be tempered immediately after quenching for best stability. Using a tool steel "as quenched" usually ends in disaster. Dies should be drawn back to the 54~60 Rc range, or a bit less.

How do you plan to heat treat your parts? Are you sending them to a commercial heat treater?

B.

lathesmith
04-03-2008, 04:10 PM
I believe also that as you progress from W-1, to O-1, to A-1 (air hardened), you get less dimensional variation when the part is heat-treated. I am sure the difference is pretty minor, but on larger parts with close tolerances it could be a factor. You probably won't notice much change on a part as small as a sizer; if you don't harden it you probably can't tell any difference at all.
I would like to get set up here to make these dies to within .001 or .002, harden them, and then get final dimensions via grinding. This would be the most accurate of all, and you would get the best of both worlds--hardened and accurate. For this I think I would prefer O-1 or A-1 steel.
lathesmith
lathesmith

bohica2xo
04-03-2008, 04:39 PM
Water hardening steels can distort on parts as small as a reloading die, especially if quenched badly (water too cold, too slow etc.) - the usual result is an oval hole.

Most die shops prefer A2 or D2 for complex dies.

If you are using a commercial heat treater you can save some money by using E52100 steel for your work. This material is great for this kind of work, it is normally used to make bearings.

No die should be heat treated at finish dimension. Some scale always forms on the surface, diameters shift slightly, etc. .002 to .005 cleanup on most steels is a good place to start.


B.

JIMinPHX
04-04-2008, 12:29 AM
So far, I’ve cut all my dies out of pre heat-treated material. I have caught wind of some rumors that other people have had good luck from making them out of drill rod & just leaving them in their natural annealed state. Lead really isn’t that hard or abrasive compared to drill rod so it makes sense to me.

bohica2xo
04-04-2008, 12:10 PM
That would depend on what kind of die you are making.

If you are making something like a lubri-sizer die, then P20 steel would be great. If you are making a case sizing die, it will not work out so well.

Some forming operations require hardened steel to keep from bulging the die, or to keep the punch stiff enough.

It all depends on the application. I am a tool & die maker by trade, and when you say "die" I generally think of sizing / forming / swaging in the firearm world.

B.

EMC45
04-04-2008, 12:33 PM
WOW!!! A can of worms has been opened. Keep the advice coming!

BABore
04-04-2008, 12:47 PM
I make all my lubrisizer and push through dies from O-1 accuracy round. I don't HT them nor think it's necessary for lead boolit sizing. I did make a few and HT'd them before finishing. A royal PITA trying to hone out a few thou. They will usually egg a bit on you too.

Morgan Astorbilt
04-04-2008, 01:18 PM
Besides normal gun parts such as firing pins and flat springs, that required heat treating, I've made several case forming dies. These included both drawing and swaging dies, to lengthen cases, such as .45-70 to .45-90,(Before this brass was available) and to swage down head diameters such as .348Win.(.546') to form 10.4x47R Vetterli-Vitali (.538"). I've been using D-2 air hardening (Uddeholm Sverka 21), which I became familiar with when making custom sheath knives, rather than O-1 or W-1 which I use for springs, firing pins, etc..
This steel remains tough even without tempering. For dies, I harden at 1860º F. with the part wrapped in a high titanium stainless heat treating foil to prevent decarburizing(scale), and without tempering, finish to spec. on the lathe with my tool post grinder.
I also no longer temper the steel parts that require tempering, using only oil, or by color. I use my casting furnace and RCBS thermometer, dipping the part in the molten lead. This allows me to more accurately control the temperature.

Morgan

badgeredd
04-04-2008, 02:52 PM
Here is another possible alternative for you to consider for sizing dies. For those of us that don't have heat treating available or who don't wish to add the time/expense for it, I have used pre-hard stainless steel. It is a bit harder to work with because of its toughness, but it it can be lapped out to size reasonably easily and polished to a super smooth surface. Of course it is a more expensive steel but I feel it is worth it for my application. BTW we have used it quite a bit in injection molding molds and it seems to be fairly resistant to abrasion from some of the plastic resins that are middle of the road in abrasive characteristics. My $.02 worth.

lathesmith
04-04-2008, 05:35 PM
This post has some good info from a large cross-section of hands-on guys. I think for my Star sizing dies, after reading some of these posts, I will use O-1 or W-1 and forget about hardening. My slugs are barely sized anyhow, maybe .002 at the most, so the die is mostly a luber. Under these conditions plain ol' drill rod ought to last a good long time. Now for case forming and sizers, that is a different matter. More contemplation is needed here...
lathesmith

georgeld
04-05-2008, 02:09 AM
I've used plain old hot rolled, and both A &O 1. With about the same results.
Main thing you've got to do a really good job of polishing the bores. Otherwise they'll rub lead off, or crush cases when forming.

I made a full set of neck sizer bushing for a Lee die to neck down brass. Just because I was making them at the time and wanted a full set. All the way from half inch down to .161" ID's by .010" and .020". Smaller size's are smaller steps. The only problem I've had with them was not getting the bore polished good enough. Crushed quite a few case necks before I got the message figured out right. After that, they've been easy to use.

Just for the fun of it one night I necked down an '06 case to about an inch from the head to .224". Funny looking thing that long, then I got careless and didn't get enough lube on it and crushed it. Never had the patience and enough boredom to do another one yet. May some day.

Do you have access to sucker rod from oil wells? That's great steel. Anneal it, turn it, then get it pink thruout and quench in water and it's hard enough you can't touch it with a new file. The redder it is when quenched, the harder and more brittle it is so be careful of your heat.
I make lots of punch's and chisels with this stuff all the time. Even harden the heads so they wont' bell over. That's got to be barely pink, just enough color to see in a fairly dark room. Too hard and they'll shatter and you'll end up eating slivers. Ask me how I liked that one stuck in my brisket that day!!

They will dimple the face of your hammer though, so be prepared for that. Some I've made have drilled over 2feet thru concrete foundations and never needed a touch up of the cutting edge. They won't quite dimple the face of a rail, or anvil, but, they'll come close. They WILL cut groove's in the face of a file so don't be shocked to see that sometime. Use a grinder, not a file and avoid that one.

bohica2xo
04-05-2008, 03:46 AM
Morgan:

You really should temper D2 parts, immediately after heat treating. As quenched, D2 will hold 62~63 Rc. If you temper @ 400f for one hour the hardness is 61 Rc. I will not finish grind a D2 part until it has been tempered twice. D2 becomes much more stable if double tempered at 400f. If you temper @ 550f, it will still hold 59 Rc, which is hard enough for any cutting job.

I mentioned P20 steel. P20 is pre-hardened mold steel, used extensively in the injection molding business. Usually delivered around 300 Bhn, it can be machined with HSS tools, and polishes well. For something like a lubri-sizer die it would be great. P20 Mold steel specs (http://www.diehlsteel.com/p20.aspx)


Lathesmith:

For case forming dies, you could use P20, then have it nitrided after you polish & test the die. Salt Bath Nitriding will take the P20 past 60 Rc which is hard enough to last for decades of use. Distortion is not an issue with this process, and the finish is slicker than hard chrome.

For things like punches, E52100 steel is always predictable - and cheaper. Things like top punches for bullet sizing can be made & used as is. 52100 can be hardened to 60 Rc if needed by taking it to 1500f before an oil quench - and following up with a 425f tempering for an hour.


George:

Sucker rod tends to be either 4142, or 4330. Both are decent carbon steels. You should be careful heat treating those materials, they can become (cough) very brittle... Tools like punches should be drawn back some after heat treatment, and the striking face (head) should always be soft enough to deform a bit. Better to grind back a bit of a mushroom occasionally - than to make a trip to the emergency room.

B.

Morgan Astorbilt
04-05-2008, 10:52 AM
Bohica2xo I didn't mean to infer that I normally don't temper D-2, or any other tool steel. I always temper D-2 where required. I just don't for parts such as forming dies or other parts that aren't subject to shock, where a super hard surface is beneficial. For this, in my opinion, D-2 is useful due to it's toughness.
To illustrate,
I've made a few lightweight D-2 replacement hammers, of my own design, for Ruger #1/3's to speed up the lock time. These have a thinned web, bringing the bulk of the mass to the periphery. In testing, I omitted tempering in some of these, and found that the as-hardened RC 62-64, gave a superior glass hard sear notch, compared to tempering down to RC59-61. I only mention this, because after almost twenty years, no problems have arisen in any of the rifles fitted with these, dispite the impact of the hammer with the firing pin and breechblock.

I've also, ground prick and center punches out of the scrap left over from countour sawing parts out of D-2 ground plate, and after wrapping in foil, thrown them in the furnace with job parts. Never tempered them, or had them chip, or need to be resharpened. Great give-aways to my friends. Wouldn't try that with other steels.

Just my experiences with this steel, others may differ.

BTW, Attempting to buy American, we tried Carpenter and a few other domestic brands of D-2, and found Swedish Uddeholm Sverker 21 to be superior, in absence of impurities, to all others. This was thirty years ago, things may have changed.
Morgan

georgeld
04-05-2008, 09:11 PM
bohica:

Not to be a smart ass, or know it all.

But, I've been using this sucker rod since about 1958 or so.
Several hundred chisels, rock drills, center punch's and many other items I've made with it.

Only had ONE chisel break the edge off, and ONE head shattered that stuck a long thin HOT sliver in the middle of my brisket. You bet, it could have been the eye's. But, wasn't. That got my attention.

I've learned from doing and making these things about the tempering and get along just great with it because I pay attention to the colors. These tools seldom ever need to have the cutting edge's touched up. They'll hold a sharp enough edge to cut slices off hot rolled steel for a long time, and drill over two feet thru concrete and still have a decent cutting edge.

Except the one time, I've never had one mushroom, nor split the head either. They will dimple a hammer face though.

For someone doing it in his own shop that's limited to a torch and welding tools. This is about as good as it will ever get. There's no heat treating outfit around these parts. Nothing is that important either. so jsut make 'em and live with it. When they last like they do after I make them. There's not much better that can be bought anywhere.

Wish you well,

Lumpie
04-05-2008, 09:48 PM
As I told you in our telephone conversation, O1 is the steel to make dies from. It has the right properties for the finished product. W1 is intended for projects that do not need the type of heat treatment O1 does. They are simular in some respects, and differ in metallurgical contents. Carbon content, is a large factor. O1 has the ability to not only be tuff, but hard in the wear surfaces. It does not distort as much in heat treatments aplications as W1. O1 does not lend to be as brittle, as W1 in this aplication. Lumpie

TCLouis
04-05-2008, 10:12 PM
Are we talking Sucker Rod like that from a wind mill?

Or, are we talking Sucker Rod from oil well?

Or, are they the same?

Ignorant folks want to know!

Lumpie
04-05-2008, 10:40 PM
Sucker rod is an early aplication of carbon steel. Some were as good, if not better than some tool steels are today. Then they tried to make a product that would last. Not the American way now! Steel companies, are like Doctors. They want to keep you comming back! Lumpie

bohica2xo
04-05-2008, 11:25 PM
Morgan:

Uddeholm still makes fantastic stuff, just as nice as they ever did. Some steel re-sellers will ship damn near anything marked as O1 or A2 - I got a piece that was marked "Made in Macedonia" inside the paper once. Not a common issue with D2.
Crucible has really cleaned up things, now their product is as clean as it should be. If you are looking for things like M42 or CPM, Crucible is a good choice.

Carpenter does a good job on stainless, but as you know they don't do as well on some other things...

Prick punches do not see the beating that other tools see, so I am not surprised you have not had any trouble. Since the Ruger hammer has all of the mass in the striking face I doubt you will see one break either.

D2 is my favorite material for tough parts, and in some cases it can be used glass hard. I tell people not to use D2 glass hard because of many years of die experience. When a 50 ton punch press smacks a die & the pieces go flying it gets exciting.


George:

What works for you with 50 years of experience is great - for you. Someone with a different idea of "pink" for a heat treating color could easily injure himself. That learning curve can be painful as you already know. My cautions were not meant to denigrate the tools you have made, but to warn anyone else who might want to duplicate your efforts...

You are still drilling concrete with a star drill?




TC Louis:

Sucker rod from an oil well is what we are discussing. Windmill (aeromotor) sucker rods can be most anything, in fact newer ones are fiberglass.


B.

JIMinPHX
04-06-2008, 03:56 PM
Sucker rod tends to be either 4142, or 4330. Both are decent carbon steels.
B.

I thought that 4142 & 4330 would both be considered in the chrome-moly family.

JIMinPHX
04-06-2008, 03:59 PM
EMC45

If you’re buying from McMaster Carr anyway, you might want to take a look at the page in the catalog at the beginning of the tool steel section. There’s a page that says “about tool steel”. It has a lot of good information about selecting the proper material for various jobs. You can also download a file off their website with more detailed info on heat treating & dimensional changes, etc. That catalog is like a text book for industry sometimes.

EMC45
04-06-2008, 07:09 PM
Thanks JIMinPHX! I will give it a look. I worked at a machine shop, but was away from the mill, and lathes. I was the Plasma table and water jet man!

bohica2xo
04-06-2008, 08:54 PM
Jim:

You are correct.

The alloying elements of 4142 make it a chrome-moly steel.

4330 has 1.8% nickel as well as .85 chromium, but it is not a stainless steel. It is used in sour gas applications because it resists corrosion better

Both are commonly identified as "carbon" steels as opposed to "stainless" steels.

B.

georgeld
04-07-2008, 01:47 AM
I got this from oil field scrap yard back about 1970 along with a bunch of smaller pipe to build a fence around my back yard. The rod was the top rail for my use. Until I used a piece of left over for a chisel and discovered how great a carbon content it had and the fantastic edge's it would hold.

I have no idea what's used on water wells, windmills, never checked those sucker rods out. I have seem wooden shafts around some old one's though. Many yrs ago.

Rock/concrete chisels/drills I've made and was taught by an old rancher what works best for drilling rock for dynamite holes. We blasted many rocks around the place for ditching and roads etc. Up there we used drill steel from old mines. That was in the early 59-62.

Those we made then and what I make yet with this 5/8" sucker rod steel are single bit half round cutting edge sharpened both sides. They measure about 1 1/8 to 1/4" OAWidth.

I ran several wires and two or three pipes thru the foundation of my house and drilled the holes for them with these drills and a single jack. Depends on the use in mind as to shape of the cutting edge. For steel, or other use, they're squared off and most times sharpened one side only like typical store bought. Having access to all this steel I desire I can and do make half a dozen at a time when I'm making them. They seem to run off everytime someone comes around. Hard to keep a supply around. I give a lot of 'em away too.

A buddy got a contract to clean off three huge building floors for Uncle Sam that had that 6 or 8" sq red tile like they used in kitchens. They'd been on hands and knee's chipping it off two days when I just happened to go by to bs with him. I brought him up to my shop and proceeded to make four long shanked chisles they could use standing up. Since they had big areas to chip and clean off. I welded a 3" section across the end of the shank and flattened, then sharpened it to cover more area. One was just an inch wide, the other two were 3"s. As a first timer he was a non believer until they tried them. He's come to me many times since when he has a special job, or problem like that. They cleaned those floors of tile in less than a week, when they'd planned on it taking at least a month the way they'd been doing it at first. Since then, he's done the same thing to seven more buildings out there. And never had to sharpen the cutting edge yet. I believe that's impressive tool steel regardless of what others think.

For someone making these things at home with just a single jack, acetylene torch and welding table as an anvil. It don't compare to someone in a big companies fancy assed shop with no limit to funding for tools, or fancy tool steels and in house, or custom hired heat treating labs.

bohica2xo
04-07-2008, 03:41 AM
George:

There is nothing wrong with good blacksmithing, and it would appear that you have reason to be proud of the tools you have made.

My dad was a blacksmith, and I still use his anvil & forming iron occasionally. I did an apprenticeship as a Tool & Die maker, many years ago. Hand forged steel can be a beautiful thing.

I don't have much of a lab, just a hardness tester & a decent microscope. One heat treating furnace, and a drawing / stress relief oven I built myself for less than 200 bucks. Amazing what you can do with a little calcium silicate.

B.

Buckshot
04-08-2008, 03:11 AM
I am on the McMaster Carr site and was curious about what drill rod would be better for dies, W1 Water quench, or O1 Oil quench? There is a few dollar difference in ft pricing, so no big deal. Me and Lumpie talked about this over the phone one night and I kinda forgot what he had told me[smilie=1:.

...............Swage dies I suppose? I use 12L14 and Soviet Engineering, meaning I make them thick walled :-) 12L14 machines like cheese and with sharp tools can produce a refelctive finish before honing. Everything I've seen to date in swaging of softer (but not all necessarily pure) lead has done well in these dies.

http://www.fototime.com/6DD15BDBE5D31B1/standard.jpghttp://www.fototime.com/311412CE238A334/standard.jpg

The above slugs on the left were swaged from lead cylindrical cores. On the right is a Swage die, and base punch, lead core and finished boolit. The die body is 1.312" OD. The base punch is turned from W-1 high carbon steel. The punch end is heated to a high red, then quenched in a saturated brine solution. It's polished bright then heated to a bright blue and air cooled. After that it is brought to the finish OD with Cratex abrasive in a toolpost grinder which leaves it mirror bright. It is very hard.

You can surface harden 12L14 and is what CH-D uses for their dies. I don't know about other manufacturers.

...............Buckshot

georgeld
04-08-2008, 03:38 AM
Nice work Buck!!

quasi
04-08-2008, 10:34 AM
Soviet enginering! LMAO!!

Morgan Astorbilt
04-08-2008, 01:22 PM
bohica2xo, Thanks for the feedback, I'm sure you've got a lot more experience regarding stamp dies than I have.

Buckshot, Nice die. What did you use to cut the cavity, a 1/2 reamer?

Morgan

bohica2xo
04-08-2008, 02:34 PM
Morgan:

You are welcome. Have you ever considered salt bath nitriding your D2 parts, and perhaps the sear that engages the hammer? It can make a big difference in how hard steels slide over each other...

B.

Buckshot
04-09-2008, 05:24 AM
Buckshot, Nice die. What did you use to cut the cavity, a 1/2 reamer?

Morgan

................Close. I ground a spoon using a HSS drill blank:

http://www.fototime.com/FBC4A50229228CB/standard.jpg

.............Buckshot

Morgan Astorbilt
04-09-2008, 08:43 AM
................Close. I ground a spoon using a HSS drill blank:

http://www.fototime.com/FBC4A50229228CB/standard.jpg

.............Buckshot

Did you use a swivelling fixture or jig to grind the radius? I'm thinking a General Tool type drill sharpener could be used, if the boring bar was long enough.
Morgan

theperfessor
04-10-2008, 12:45 AM
A couple of years ago I bought three pickup truck loads of "drops" from a friend that closed down his machine shop. He made pins and bushings for heavy equipment. It was round stock ranging from 1" to 4+" in diameter and up to 6 feet long and all of it was 4140 and 4350, with a little 8620 thrown in. Paid $100 a truck load and I had the old Dakota groaning on each trip.

The 4140 and 4350 stuff is great to cut, can be used annealed or hardened w/an oil quench, and is not particularly hard to heat treat.

I use a Blue M furnace set at about 1450-1500, heat until the material is no longer magnetic (I keep a $0.99 Harbor Freight extension magnet by the oven), and drop it into a warm oil quench until it hits about 250F, and immediately temper at 400 to 550 F depending on desired hardness/toughness.

If you pull it out of the oven as soon as it's turned into nonmagnetic austenite you can minimize the scaling, although polishing of contact surfaces is often necessary for precision applications.

Just thought I'd suggest other materials that are useful, available, and easy to work with.

Buckshot
04-11-2008, 01:45 AM
Did you use a swivelling fixture or jig to grind the radius? I'm thinking a General Tool type drill sharpener could be used, if the boring bar was long enough.
Morgan

...............Morgan, I used the Mk1 Mod1 eyeball and hand held it using a bench grinder :-). It took me a whole day. I'd grind a little and then go do something else till I felt brave again and would grind a bit more :-) Naturally I finished it up by stoning.

....................Buckshot

georgeld
04-12-2008, 12:47 AM
That's good steal.
by the truck loads is the best way to gather up dust collectors. Have about ten of them myself and only one trail thru the shop too!!
Maybe the next guy will appreciate it all.